Will Competition Destroy Tesla?

[David]

The Hits keep coming and Tesla has appealed the verdict, but we knew it was bound to happen. German Court has ordered Tesla to take back and refund the $69,000 Euro's for an owner who has proven that the auto self driving does not work with the existing hardware and is not safe.

Court Makes Tesla Buy Back Model 3: Owner Unhappy With Autopilot (insideevs.com)

I suspect Tesla is going to find themselves in a very difficult situation as they push forward the crazy self-driving cost of $12,000 and a yearly fee to have something that is still in Beta form and not allowed for most people yet even though you have paid for it.

[smk4565]

8 hours ago, ccap41 said:

1: They have the Navigator to get into the 100k range

2: Lincoln doesn't have the brand equity to ask 180k for anything right now.

They're taking much-needed steps towards gaining brand recognition and making actually really good products again. BUT, they dug themselves a hole from like the 90's through about 2015, then they started to differentiate themselves from Ford products. 

Lincoln has better differentiation from the Ford counterparts now than they have in decades, so in that regard they are better.  However I don't see much being done to gain brand recognition, they are down to a 4 vehicle line up and are killing the Nautilus next year, and the segments they do compete in they aren't even near the top. 

[riviera74]

4 hours ago, David said:

The Hits keep coming and Tesla has appealed the verdict, but we knew it was bound to happen. German Court has ordered Tesla to take back and refund the $69,000 Euro's for an owner who has proven that the auto self driving does not work with the existing hardware and is not safe.

Court Makes Tesla Buy Back Model 3: Owner Unhappy With Autopilot (insideevs.com)

I suspect Tesla is going to find themselves in a very difficult situation as they push forward the crazy self-driving cost of $12,000 and a yearly fee to have something that is still in Beta form and not allowed for most people yet even though you have paid for it.

Never promise what you cannot deliver.  I do hope that Tesla and Elon Musk have learned their lesson.

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Lincoln has better differentiation from the Ford counterparts now than they have in decades, so in that regard they are better.  However I don't see much being done to gain brand recognition, they are down to a 4 vehicle line up and are killing the Nautilus next year, and the segments they do compete in they aren't even near the top. 

I wonder how Lincoln can actually fix that.  Cadillac does not seem to have that problem.

[smk4565]

26 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Never promise what you cannot deliver.  I do hope that Tesla and Elon Musk have learned their lesson.

I wonder how Lincoln can actually fix that.  Cadillac does not seem to have that problem.

I don't think Cadillac is flying high either, but at least they have more than 4 and soon to be 3 products like Lincoln.

Lincoln's problem is no one bought their sedans, and sedan market is shrinking, so they can't expand there, a sports car wouldn't really fit Lincoln's image, so they can't go there.  Going above Navigator is like Cadillac going above Escalade, neither corporation understands that or could conceive selling a vehicle smaller than a Navigator at double the price of a Navigator.  So Lincoln is kind of pigeon holed themselves into small, medium large SUV's and that's it.  Hard to fix that or grow the brand, unless you make best in segment in all 3, and that isn't going to happen on Ford platforms with Ford powertrains.

[David]

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I don't think Cadillac is flying high either, but at least they have more than 4 and soon to be 3 products like Lincoln.

Lincoln's problem is no one bought their sedans, and sedan market is shrinking, so they can't expand there, a sports car wouldn't really fit Lincoln's image, so they can't go there.  Going above Navigator is like Cadillac going above Escalade, neither corporation understands that or could conceive selling a vehicle smaller than a Navigator at double the price of a Navigator.  So Lincoln is kind of pigeon holed themselves into small, medium large SUV's and that's it.  Hard to fix that or grow the brand, unless you make best in segment in all 3, and that isn't going to happen on Ford platforms with Ford powertrains.

Cadillac at least is in the top for JD Powers quality, rating and recommended buy and I also see BMW, but I do not see Mercedes. So how is being rated top and selling with one of the highest ATP as a luxury division not flying high when Mercedes has had to push into the low end to keep sales going and profits going?

Yes Lincoln needs work and has an uphill fight ahead of them, but I do not think they are out yet. I would be more worried about a company that has to produce thousands of generic blah looking auto's and sell on a badge at low atp than a company that sells the most trucks at some very high atp's.

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Lincoln has better differentiation from the Ford counterparts now than they have in decades, so in that regard they are better.  However I don't see much being done to gain brand recognition, they are down to a 4 vehicle line up and are killing the Nautilus next year, and the segments they do compete in they aren't even near the top. 

Hasn't it been known the Nautilus/Edge are being replaced with something electric? 

I'm assuming you're talking strictly sales numbers, not praise the vehicles themselves actually get? They get plenty of praise from automotive journalists but their sales aren't very good. 

I've said it many times, it takes time to overcome what they did in the 90's-2015ish. They built in such bad brand recognition that it just takes time to overcome that(assuming the products are actually very good - which they are now). 

[Robert Hall]

The Nautilus/Edge seem to be somewhat overlapped from below by the Corsair/Escape and above by the Aviator/Explorer.  

What about a Lincoln Bronco variant to take on the Defender?  Could be interesting...

[ccap41]

29 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

The Nautilus/Edge seem to be somewhat overlapped from below by the Corsair/Escape and above by the Aviator/Explorer.  

What about a Lincoln Bronco variant to take on the Defender?  Could be interesting...

The Edge fits in pretty much the same role/size as the JGC, Blazer, Acadia, Passport, Venza, etc... large two-row SUVs. All of those companies have 3-row SUVs above these and compact SUVs below these. 

I'm sure Hyundai/Kia have vehicles in this category as well. 

[smk4565]

16 hours ago, David said:

Cadillac at least is in the top for JD Powers quality, rating and recommended buy and I also see BMW, but I do not see Mercedes. So how is being rated top and selling with one of the highest ATP as a luxury division not flying high when Mercedes has had to push into the low end to keep sales going and profits going?

Yes Lincoln needs work and has an uphill fight ahead of them, but I do not think they are out yet. I would be more worried about a company that has to produce thousands of generic blah looking auto's and sell on a badge at low atp than a company that sells the most trucks at some very high atp's.

This is Cadillac's problem, sales since 2013:

It has basically been a steady decline, and 2021 was probably a record year for the Escalade, they sold over 40,000 of them (up 65%).  The rest of the lineup outside of the Escalade is really performing poorly.  Cadillac has a good ATP because the Escalade is 1/3rd of their sales.  And at the rate they are going, they'll kill off CT4 and CT5 in a few years so sales will drop, ATP will go up.  Although there is an XT3 crossover test mule driving around, yet to be seen what that is or what market it is for.  

Now that that full size SUV segment has Wagoneer/Grand Wagoner and a new Lexus Land Cruiser, plus a competitive Sequoia Hybrid, and a new Range Rover this year, that is a lot of new competition.  If Cadillac sales keep dropping they are going to be flirting with the 100k line pretty soon.

[smk4565]

8 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Hasn't it been known the Nautilus/Edge are being replaced with something electric? 

I'm assuming you're talking strictly sales numbers, not praise the vehicles themselves actually get? They get plenty of praise from automotive journalists but their sales aren't very good. 

I've said it many times, it takes time to overcome what they did in the 90's-2015ish. They built in such bad brand recognition that it just takes time to overcome that(assuming the products are actually very good - which they are now). 

There is supposed to be something electric but if a Mustang Mach-E is $45-65k range, the Edge is bigger, so do they price that more, or price it the same and just pull back on performance?  Either way the Lincoln would be at least $10k more, so maybe $55-75k for a small-midsize crossover?  The Nautilus is a bust at $45k, who wants to pay $65k for an electric Nautilus with a new name?  People will walk right past that and go get a Tesla for the brand name.

I am talking about both sales and critical reviews.  If you ran up a comparison of the Escalade, Grand Wagoneer, Lexus LX, Navigator and the Infiniti QX80, the Navigator would finish 2nd to last in from any publication.  And most publications would rate the unibody GLS, X7, and Range Rover higher, unless your primary use is towing and cargo hauling.  The Corsair is fancy escape at the end of the day, put that against an Alfa Stelvio, Maserati Grecale, Porsche Macan, Genesis G70, X3, GLC, Q5 and that crew will stomp it in performance and Lexus beats it in comfort, reliability, resale, etc.  

It does take time, but you have to have best in class product for years to overcome the mess Lincoln is in.  And they don't have best in class product now, they have terrible resale value, poor image and most buyers aren't even going to give them a look.  They could have tried to go a green route and make all Lincolns hybrids as standard, maybe try to steal som thunder of Lexus, but they didn't do that.    The brand just doesn't really stand for anything.

[David]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

This is Cadillac's problem, sales since 2013:

It has basically been a steady decline, and 2021 was probably a record year for the Escalade, they sold over 40,000 of them (up 65%).  The rest of the lineup outside of the Escalade is really performing poorly.  Cadillac has a good ATP because the Escalade is 1/3rd of their sales.  And at the rate they are going, they'll kill off CT4 and CT5 in a few years so sales will drop, ATP will go up.  Although there is an XT3 crossover test mule driving around, yet to be seen what that is or what market it is for.  

Now that that full size SUV segment has Wagoneer/Grand Wagoner and a new Lexus Land Cruiser, plus a competitive Sequoia Hybrid, and a new Range Rover this year, that is a lot of new competition.  If Cadillac sales keep dropping they are going to be flirting with the 100k line pretty soon.

So then lets look at Mercedes

Mercedes-Benz U.S Sales Figures (carsalesbase.com)

Looks great but has been declining since about 2013.

Detailed look going even farther back they sell less than Cadillac until the last decade when Mercedes pushed into Toyota/Chevrolet territory where the bulk of sales are.

H'mmm 🤔

Mercedes we have a problem, you peaked in 2016 and have been going down since then here in the U.S.

Per the link above, their luxury level autos are in the DUMP. They have grown till 2016/2017 on the back of to quote the statistic sites building generic Nissan / Toyota type appliance autos.

One would have to question if Mercedes is flying high versus Cadillac.

2021 US Vehicle Sales Figures By Model | GCBC (goodcarbadcar.net)

If we look at this and take out everything below C-Class and Vans, this tells another whole story of falling sales and a lack of flying high in the luxury segment.

 

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, David said:

So then lets look at Mercedes

Looks great but has been declining since about 2013.

Detailed look going even farther back they sell less than Cadillac until the last decade when Mercedes pushed into Toyota/Chevrolet territory where the bulk of sales are.

H'mmm 🤔

Mercedes we have a problem, you peaked in 2016 and have been going down since then here in the U.S.

 

 

 

2016 was their peak, 2017 just 2000 cars less, as was 2015.  Quite stable in the 370s for those 3 years.   Tesla really got going with Model 3 and Y in 2018, so that probably hurt Mercedes, and then the pandemic years.  Also look at their market share 2020 was their best year yet, 2021 their second best year.  And dropping from 374k to 329k isn't as bad as a drop from 182k to 128k, Cadillac lost like 1/3 of their volume.

[riviera74]

So why are Cadillac and Benz and Lincoln sales falling?

I was going to say that Mercedes needs a lower tier model, but then I remembered that Mercedes IS the lower tier model across Europe.  CNBC has a video on how Mercedes has lost its luster.

 

[balthazar]

^ Well, of course. Over-saturation and brand dilution. 

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I am talking about both sales and critical reviews.  If you ran up a comparison of the Escalade, Grand Wagoneer, Lexus LX, Navigator and the Infiniti QX80, the Navigator would finish 2nd to last in from any publication.

Crazy, it topped the comparison test here in 2021. Yeah, it doesn't have the newest offerings as the Grand Wagoneer just came out. I'm sure they'll compare all three when they get an opportunity. The Lexus and Infiniti are easily behind all three American-made ones. 

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2020-bmw-x7-2021-cadillac-escalade-lincoln-navigator-mercedes-benz-gls-class-3-row-luxury-suv-comparison-test-review/

 

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 They could have tried to go a green route and make all Lincolns hybrids as standard, maybe try to steal som thunder of Lexus, but they didn't do that.

Two of the four offer plug-in hybrids. The Nautilus is being replaced with an EV and I'm surprised they didn't drop-in the hybrid powertrain from the F150 in the Navigator yet. 

[balthazar]

^ Well, look at that! 😉

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Corsair is fancy escape at the end of the day, put that against an Alfa Stelvio, Maserati Grecale, Porsche Macan, Genesis G70, X3, GLC, Q5 and that crew will stomp it in performance and Lexus beats it in comfort, reliability, resale, etc.  

Those all start considerably higher priced than the Corsair.

Corsair: $36,400

Stelvio: $45,500

Grecale: $63,500

Macan: $54,900

GV70: $41,500

X3: $43,700

GLC: $43,900

Q5: $43,300

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 And most publications would rate the unibody GLS, X7, and Range Rover higher, unless your primary use is towing and cargo hauling.

I'll link it one more time to show you the Navigator topped the GLS and X7.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2020-bmw-x7-2021-cadillac-escalade-lincoln-navigator-mercedes-benz-gls-class-3-row-luxury-suv-comparison-test-review/

"Despite some positives, the BMW X7 just doesn't outride, outdrive, or out-luxe the established players in this segment. It's a good first effort but unfortunately not a great one."

"Despite its lack of the premium leathers, woods, and headliners of the rest of the field, the GLS' as-tested price was a group-high $108,135. "

"Compared to the BMW, Cadillac, and Lincoln, the Mercedes had the least impressive interior of the lot. Ignoring the aging design—an issue the BMW suffers from, as well—materials on our supposedly luxurious GLS580 left us wanting for more."

[surreal1272]

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I am talking about both sales and critical reviews.  If you ran up a comparison of the Escalade, Grand Wagoneer, Lexus LX, Navigator and the Infiniti QX80, the Navigator would finish 2nd to last in from any publication.

If you are just gong to blatantly lie through those teeth of yours, then make sure its not such an easily disproven lie, as ccap just showed you. Good grief.

[ccap41]

BUT THE INTERIORS ON THE EUROPEANS!!

...wait...

😬

[surreal1272]

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

And dropping from 374k to 329k isn't as bad as a drop from 182k to 128k, Cadillac lost like 1/3 of their volume.

Umm, it is for a VOLUME brand and that is exactly what your favorite brand has become over the last twenty years. Keep deflecting though.

[smk4565]

55 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Those all start considerably higher priced than the Corsair.

Corsair: $36,400

Stelvio: $45,500

Grecale: $63,500

Macan: $54,900

GV70: $41,500

X3: $43,700

GLC: $43,900

Q5: $43,300

And yet with the lower price, the Corsair still has poor sales, really poor compared to the RDX and NX.  
 

And the Nautilus which is larger than the than all the cars on that list and also starts at $43k is a slow seller, headed to the grave.

[ccap41]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

And yet with the lower price, the Corsair still has poor sales, really poor compared to the RDX and NX.  
 

And the Nautilus which is larger than the than all the cars on that list and also starts at $43k is a slow seller, headed to the grave.

Yeah, like I've already said, it takes a long time to dig ones' self out of where they were.

Also, like has been said, it's to be replaced with an EV. 

[smk4565]

56 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I'll link it one more time to show you the Navigator topped the GLS and X7.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2020-bmw-x7-2021-cadillac-escalade-lincoln-navigator-mercedes-benz-gls-class-3-row-luxury-suv-comparison-test-review/

"Despite some positives, the BMW X7 just doesn't outride, outdrive, or out-luxe the established players in this segment. It's a good first effort but unfortunately not a great one."

"Despite its lack of the premium leathers, woods, and headliners of the rest of the field, the GLS' as-tested price was a group-high $108,135. "

"Compared to the BMW, Cadillac, and Lincoln, the Mercedes had the least impressive interior of the lot. Ignoring the aging design—an issue the BMW suffers from, as well—materials on our supposedly luxurious GLS580 left us wanting for more."

And from the same review:

” "The GLS feels the most car-like, and it's easily the sportiest drive of the four. Easily the driver's choice," Morrison said.”

And Car and Driver ranked the Navigator the 9th best large luxury SUV on this list

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g31095534/best-luxury-suvs-in-2020-ranked/

Since they broke it down with sub models, 5 of the top 8 are Mercedes and the X7 was #1.  So depends on what publication you want to believe.

[surreal1272]

18 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Yeah, like I've already said, it takes a long time to dig ones' self out of where they were.

Also, like has been said, it's to be replaced with an EV. 

Why go back and forth with him? Sales only matter when Benz comes out on top but mention things like the Escalade outselling the GLS and it’s a totally different story. Just ridiculous at this point. We all know he is only going to move the damn goalposts when it suits him like Benz pays him by the word. What he failing to grasp is that Benz is moving to EVs like everyone else the thus far their sedans are half baked offerings at best. I only bring that up because this thread is about Tesla and their EV competition, which at this point is not coming from Germany, end of story. 

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Since they broke it down with sub models, 5 of the top 8 are Mercedes and the X7 was #1.  So depends on what publication you want to believe.

So it’s not every publication, like you claimed earlier. Again, easily disproven lies leading to yet more bar moving. 
 

This is old. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

26 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

And from the same review:

” "The GLS feels the most car-like, and it's easily the sportiest drive of the four. Easily the driver's choice," Morrison said.”

And Car and Driver ranked the Navigator the 9th best large luxury SUV on this list

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g31095534/best-luxury-suvs-in-2020-ranked/

Since they broke it down with sub models, 5 of the top 8 are Mercedes and the X7 was #1.  So depends on what publication you want to believe.

That garbage list has the Rolls and Bentley in 11th and 12th places and lists the sub models separately. G550 and G63? GLS Maybach, GLS63, and GLS580? Give me a break. 

That's no true comparison test and a trash listing, and you know it.

[David]

13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

2016 was their peak, 2017 just 2000 cars less, as was 2015.  Quite stable in the 370s for those 3 years.   Tesla really got going with Model 3 and Y in 2018, so that probably hurt Mercedes, and then the pandemic years.  Also look at their market share 2020 was their best year yet, 2021 their second best year.  And dropping from 374k to 329k isn't as bad as a drop from 182k to 128k, Cadillac lost like 1/3 of their volume.

So this took me some time as I wanted to confirm facts and I have done that while it has taken some time.

Using https://media.mbusa.com and https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/mercedes-benz-us-figures/

Here is how Mercedes has done for the last Decade. Every Dog has it's day and as Mercedes has pushed into the APPLIANCE Market of competing with Chevrolet, Toyota, Nissan, Ford they have diluted their Luxury Status pretty much each year and while we will all agree that the Pandemic of 2020 to 2022 has hit the auto industry in many weird ways, as per your own past statements, SALES is the final fact. Not going to waste time adding in all the AMG variations as their sales numbers are so small and my time is valuable, but looking at the 3 main classes, one can clearly see a long term decline in the Luxury level of Mercedes sales.

[ccap41]

16 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 And they don't have best in class product now, they have terrible resale value,

My in-laws just picked up a 2017 GL550 for 60k, 36 or 37,000 miles on it. 5 years old and it lost, what, 40-50%? That resale doesn't sound any better than Lincoln's, excluding the Navigator which holds its value extremely well, like all BOF SUVs.  

[David]

We'll the up-and-coming professional youth in the Tech Industry has spoken, just on a zoom meeting and at the end we as always open it up if there is time for random chat. 

No one really seemed to have anything to discuss, so I asked if I could ask a simple question that was not related to tech work.

What do people think of when they hear Mercedes-Benz?

I honestly was not surprised to hear luxury, expensive, German. What surprised me was the numerous comments of why buy old tech in an Auto when Tesla is the luxury leader. 

That comment that got people really talking surprised me. It was interesting to hear many say they are waiting for Apple to start auto production. I also was surprised to hear folks mention how excited they were for Lucid and Rivian, but a few also said it was awesome to see Hummer back and they were excited to see one and possibly buy one. 

Yes, I work at a technology company, so it is no surprise to hear people talk about going EV. Yet many like some here said they were holding out till the true $30,000 EVs hit the market by 2025. It would seem there is plenty of pent-up demand for EVs and plenty of people willing to wait out the pandemic with their existing ICE auto till EVs are brought in.

I would have to say we are in very fluid times of the auto industry and the customers are going to speak, right now I am hearing lots of folks are waiting for EVs in the lower tier of pricing. 

Chevrolet could find themselves in a very high demand market share when they deliver the Equinox at the end of this year for production.

[smk4565]

5 hours ago, David said:

So this took me some time as I wanted to confirm facts and I have done that while it has taken some time.

Using https://media.mbusa.com and https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/mercedes-benz-us-figures/

Here is how Mercedes has done for the last Decade. Every Dog has it's day and as Mercedes has pushed into the APPLIANCE Market of competing with Chevrolet, Toyota, Nissan, Ford they have diluted their Luxury Status pretty much each year and while we will all agree that the Pandemic of 2020 to 2022 has hit the auto industry in many weird ways, as per your own past statements, SALES is the final fact. Not going to waste time adding in all the AMG variations as their sales numbers are so small and my time is valuable, but looking at the 3 main classes, one can clearly see a long term decline in the Luxury level of Mercedes sales.

And what did their SUVs do?

Because Lincoln killed all their sedans, Cadillac is down to 2 sedans, and no coupes, Lexus killed the GS, Acura killed most of its sedans to get down to 1 and the Integra is coming back, Infiniti killed the Q45 and M-line/Q70.  About half the car brands are just giving up on sedans/coupes/convertibles.  

[David]

19 hours ago, smk4565 said:

2016 was their peak, 2017 just 2000 cars less, as was 2015.  Quite stable in the 370s for those 3 years.   Tesla really got going with Model 3 and Y in 2018, so that probably hurt Mercedes, and then the pandemic years.  Also look at their market share 2020 was their best year yet, 2021 their second best year.  And dropping from 374k to 329k isn't as bad as a drop from 182k to 128k, Cadillac lost like 1/3 of their volume.

We'll Rocket Scientist, why not go do what I did for their SUVs so you can see how they dropped too since per your own acknowledgement, they dropped from 374k to 329K, a drop of 45K which is more than the sedans alone, so that implies they dropped across their car/suv product line.

[smk4565]

5 hours ago, David said:

We'll the up-and-coming professional youth in the Tech Industry has spoken, just on a zoom meeting and at the end we as always open it up if there is time for random chat. 

No one really seemed to have anything to discuss, so I asked if I could ask a simple question that was not related to tech work.

What do people think of when they hear Mercedes-Benz?

I honestly was not surprised to hear luxury, expensive, German. What surprised me was the numerous comments of why buy old tech in an Auto when Tesla is the luxury leader. 

That comment that got people really talking surprised me. It was interesting to hear many say they are waiting for Apple to start auto production. I also was surprised to hear folks mention how excited they were for Lucid and Rivian, but a few also said it was awesome to see Hummer back and they were excited to see one and possibly buy one. 

Yes, I work at a technology company, so it is no surprise to hear people talk about going EV. Yet many like some here said they were holding out till the true $30,000 EVs hit the market by 2025. It would seem there is plenty of pent-up demand for EVs and plenty of people willing to wait out the pandemic with their existing ICE auto till EVs are brought in.

I would have to say we are in very fluid times of the auto industry and the customers are going to speak, right now I am hearing lots of folks are waiting for EVs in the lower tier of pricing. 

Chevrolet could find themselves in a very high demand market share when they deliver the Equinox at the end of this year for production.

Tesla has that image now, because they were first in market with a good EV and not a compliance car piece of crap.  
 

Tesla isn’t the first to have Level 3 self driving in the USA though and their Model S and Y are pretty dated, 10 years on market with 2 minor refreshes.
 

Now is the time for the competition to flood the market with EV’s and have brand new product to make Tesla look dated. 

[smk4565]

3 minutes ago, David said:

We'll Rocket Scientist, why not go do what I did for their SUVs so you can see how they dropped too since per your own acknowledgement, they dropped from 374k to 329K, a drop of 45K which is more than the sedans alone, so that implies they dropped across their car/suv product line.

The SAAR in 2016 was a record 18.4 million units.  In 2020 it was 12.9 million and in 2021 15 million.

Mercedes is down 12.1% from their peak while the overall market is down 18.5% from 2016 to 2021.  Cadillac is down 35% from their mid 2010s peak.

Tesla is probably the only one that is up over 5 years, outside of Rolls or Ferrari that are so low volume.

[David]

And @smk4565 continues to follow idiots in this world with FUD and grey scale evasive tactics rather than stick to the facts that would take away his delusion of Mercedes is no longer a luxury auto maker, but a mass market auto maker with some luxury autos and many generic appliance autos. 

You STILL have not provided any evidence as I have to assume that if you actually did the work like me, you would find that Mercedes SUVs are also down, down down over the past decade as they have peaked in the Past! 🙄

Will you ever actually compare an Apple to an Apple? I doubt it.

[smk4565]

39 minutes ago, David said:

And @smk4565 continues to follow idiots in this world with FUD and grey scale evasive tactics rather than stick to the facts that would take away his delusion of Mercedes is no longer a luxury auto maker, but a mass market auto maker with some luxury autos and many generic appliance autos. 

You STILL have not provided any evidence as I have to assume that if you actually did the work like me, you would find that Mercedes SUVs are also down, down down over the past decade as they have peaked in the Past! 🙄

Will you ever actually compare an Apple to an Apple? I doubt it.

I don't really want to look up 10 years worth of sales data, so I'll just compare 2011 to 2021 so it is a 10 year spread.

2011:                          Fast Forward             to 2021:

                                                                GLA: 14,322

R-class:  2,385                                       GLB: 26,667

GLK:  24,310                                           GLC 51,805

M-class: 35,835                                    GLE:  65,074

GL-class: 25,139                                   GLS: 24,282

G-class: 1,191                                         G:  8,523

Total: 88,860                                      Total:  168,873

They nearly doubled SUV sales!

Also how is Mercedes not a luxury car maker?  And keep in mind the Cadillac XT4, Lincoln Corsair and Lexus UX are priced below the GLA.  And nothing at Cadillac, Lincoln or Lexus is priced like a G-glass, S-class, SL, AMG GT, EQS or Maybach.

In fact, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Volvo, Alfa Romeo, Genesis, Cadillac, Tesla, Lincoln, Audi, BMW and Porsche combined have 5 vehicles with a base price over $100k, The Tesla Model X, the 911, Audi e-Tron GT, R8 and Lexus LC Convertible (the coupe starts under $100k).  Mercedes by themselves has 5 starting over $100k, and we have an EQS SUV debuting later this month.   And I am using base model price, so like an Audi RS7 is over $100k, but the base A7 is not.  If the EQS SUV is over $100k, then Mercedes has more $100k+ vehicles than all 12 competitors combined!

And I think the EQS SUV is going to put a dent in the dated Model X, because this interior p

vs

The 2nd interior could be from a Mazda, with their dinky little tacked on Samsung tablet, doesn't look like a technology leader to me.

[riviera74]

Tesla does not CARE about interiors like the others.  They want to be the Luxury equivalent of a Prius.  On that basis, they are quite successful.  That does NOT mean that their success will last forever, especially if Tesla does not improve their fit and finish and their self-driving features.

[David]

21 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I don't really want to look up 10 years worth of sales data, so I'll just compare 2011 to 2021 so it is a 10 year spread.

2011:                          Fast Forward             to 2021:

                                                                GLA: 14,322

R-class:  2,385                                       GLB: 26,667

GLK:  24,310                                           GLC 51,805

M-class: 35,835                                    GLE:  65,074

GL-class: 25,139                                   GLS: 24,282

G-class: 1,191                                         G:  8,523

Total: 88,860                                      Total:  168,873

They nearly doubled SUV sales!

FAILURE AGAIN,

The whole PURPOSE of 10 years stated data is to compare the bell curve of where they were and where they are and how the sales are doing.

YOU CHOOSE TO HIDE the Facts of that data by saying you do not want to really look it up. 

MAN UP, If you want to Support BENZ, then MAN UP, POST THE FACTS, Be Honest otherwise you are no different than a deceitful lying sales person who  wants to live in the grey cloud of fuzzy facts rather than address the real facts.

WHY?

Instant Gratification!

Man UP!!! RESPECT is EARNED by Facts and Hard Work. 

I am NOT Perfect, and I know I have messed up some of my own facts, but I will always admit I made a mistake if someone points it out and I have overlooked it.

I try my best @smk4565 to engage you and discuss the facts of the auto industry, but where you FAIL is when you ignore the REAL FACTS of what is going on.

Man Up, Do the Work and Post the 10 years of SUV sales by model so EVERYONE can either say YES, SMK is Right, or We debate why they have peaked and sales are falling off.

Cadillac has killed off product that sales were not supporting, Sales have gone done, but they have focused on being a true Luxury Auto Line. That is a big Difference where they are focusing on their niche market, Mercedes has choosen to become the Chevrolet of German Brands and BMW is right there with them.

I saw a BMW 2 series today, wow, what a piece of junk. No different than the A, B and C series of Mercedes. I can only imagen that the BMW 1 series is just as bad.

HOW will the Germans beat Tesla when they cannot focus on the segment that grew them? 

Cadillac will be more competition to Tesla than Mercedes or BMW and NO showing off the EQS top of the line interior that is on so few EQS that you cannot say they will beat Tesla.

 

[balthazar]

Cadillac sold 390K units worldwide in 2019.

Interesting how we commonly read about Tesla's global sales and you have to hunt for U.S. numbers, but it's always the inverse when talking about Cadillac.

[surreal1272]

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I don't really want to look up 10 years worth of sales data, so I'll just compare 2011 to 2021 so it is a 10 year spread.

2011:                          Fast Forward             to 2021:

                                                                GLA: 14,322

R-class:  2,385                                       GLB: 26,667

GLK:  24,310                                           GLC 51,805

M-class: 35,835                                    GLE:  65,074

GL-class: 25,139                                   GLS: 24,282

G-class: 1,191                                         G:  8,523

Total: 88,860                                      Total:  168,873

They nearly doubled SUV sales!

Also how is Mercedes not a luxury car maker?  And keep in mind the Cadillac XT4, Lincoln Corsair and Lexus UX are priced below the GLA.  And nothing at Cadillac, Lincoln or Lexus is priced like a G-glass, S-class, SL, AMG GT, EQS or Maybach.

In fact, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, Volvo, Alfa Romeo, Genesis, Cadillac, Tesla, Lincoln, Audi, BMW and Porsche combined have 5 vehicles with a base price over $100k, The Tesla Model X, the 911, Audi e-Tron GT, R8 and Lexus LC Convertible (the coupe starts under $100k).  Mercedes by themselves has 5 starting over $100k, and we have an EQS SUV debuting later this month.   And I am using base model price, so like an Audi RS7 is over $100k, but the base A7 is not.  If the EQS SUV is over $100k, then Mercedes has more $100k+ vehicles than all 12 competitors combined!

And I think the EQS SUV is going to put a dent in the dated Model X, because this interior p

vs

The 2nd interior could be from a Mazda, with their dinky little tacked on Samsung tablet, doesn't look like a technology leader to me.

I said I was staying away from this but I had to say this. Why don’t you show the EQS interior that most folks will end up buying because of price? I know why you didn’t. Everyone else knows why you didn’t. However, why didn’t you? Guess it’s tough to find it on Benz’s page because they default to the higher priced optioned interior like the one above. FFS, present ALL OF THE FACTS before touting the highest trim interior that does nothing to change that hideous excuse of an exterior from the “best or nothing”. Nothing. I choose nothing. 

[surreal1272]

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The 2nd interior could be from a Mazda, with their dinky little tacked on Samsung tablet, doesn't look like a technology leader to me.

FFS. You had ZERO problems with MB doing that exact same tablet slab for years. Even the base EQS has a similar style except it has a vertical orientation instead of landscape. 
 

Again, this is why reasonable discussions cannot be had with rabid fans like yourself. 

9 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

I said I was staying away from this but I had to say this. Why don’t you show the EQS interior that most folks will end up buying because of price? I know why you didn’t. Everyone else knows why you didn’t. However, why didn’t you? Guess it’s tough to find it on Benz’s page because they default to the higher priced optioned interior like the one above. FFS, present ALL OF THE FACTS before touting the highest trim interior that does nothing to change that hideous excuse of an exterior from the “best or nothing”. Nothing. I choose nothing. 

Edit: Not EQS but the SUV that will have the same entry level interior. Point still stands. 

[surreal1272]

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Also how is Mercedes not a luxury car maker?  And keep in mind the Cadillac XT4, Lincoln Corsair and Lexus UX

The GLA MSRP is a whole $30 more than the Corsair and a whole $405 more than the XT4. The Lexus UX is the cheapie of the bunch. You’re not exactly making a convincing argument for Benz when you have said, in the past, that the other three brands compete more with each other than they do Benz. If those three are not upper tier luxury, as you claim, then what does that make SUVs like the GLA?

[oldshurst442]

Mercedes as a luxury brand...in North America....in 2022?

 

We have had this conversation over and over. 

Ive had this conversation since the 1990s.

Im sick of it.

Mercedes made luxury cars up until 1939. 

After 1945, Mercedes sold cars for a rebuilding Europe in Europe. Mercedes didnt have to resort to entry level cars, but they did have to sell to Average Joe Europeans.   They didnt have to resort to those. They sold to Europeans who had a steady income.  

    1946-1953 

 

They didnt sell anything in North America until way into the 1950s.

As the 1950s rolled in, West Germany was coming out of the war. France and the UK too.  But there was no real wealthy clientele to build a luxury vehicle portfolio from.  They started out offering a model that was catered to business people.

1953

 

Some really really talented engineers did get together to engineer this

 

But it was strictly for the wealthy OUTSIDE of Europe...

And THAT is the post war history of Mercedes of how Mercedes is defined as a luxury maker.

In North America, Mercedes has kept their image intact.

In Europe, Mercedes is a brand that caters to all markets.  Low class vehicle. Mid class and luxury.  Trucks. Busses. Military. 

HOWEVER, Mercedes in North America, to boost car volume, to survive, have basically tried to apply their European image.  Have gone DOWNMARKET the last 25 years and especially the last 10.

  Ironically, despite getting a foothold in the US market AS AN ACCEPTED luxury brand IN THE 1990s,  they also focused on going DOWNMARKET IN THIS EXACT SAME TIMEFRAME.

Wool over the eyes of many many Americans..

 

I still cant fathom on how somebody as proud as an American could be soooooo pissed at American cars, for whatever reason, but yet buy something foreign. Pretend that foreign shytebox is better than the American counterpart, when it falls apart faster than the American car, is purely a pedestrian car in its home country and be bamboozled that its luxury in North America. And somebody points that out only to be laughed at.

Just as a reference when we are talking about Mercedes as a luxury car maker post war...

Because price was a point of contention regarding luxury as a discussion a year or two ago regarding luxury pick-up trucks. Conclusion is price is not a factor.   

Tech is a factor. But American cars have ALWAYS been innovative. At worse: AS innovative as Mercedes. But more realistically, MORE innovative than Mercedes.  

Style and history. 

The photos speak VOLUMES...

1949-1952

 

1953

 

But I know what we are gonna do... history be damned and we will ignore it  JUST to ALWAS prop up Mercedes...

Keep this in mind though when we cast aside "good 'ole day" Buicks  because Buick is nowhere near what they were in the 1950s

 

 

If Buick has fallen from grace, I wonder if some folk think the same for Mercedes?

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

Luxury evolution in North America

 

 

 

 

OOZING with class and style made for kings of kings. 

 

[smk4565]

13 hours ago, David said:

 

Cadillac has killed off product that sales were not supporting, Sales have gone done, but they have focused on being a true Luxury Auto Line. That is a big Difference where they are focusing on their niche market, Mercedes has choosen to become the Chevrolet of German Brands and BMW is right there with them.

HOW will the Germans beat Tesla when they cannot focus on the segment that grew them? 

Cadillac will be more competition to Tesla than Mercedes or BMW and NO showing off the EQS top of the line interior that is on so few EQS that you cannot say they will beat Tesla.

 

Wait, why is Cadillac a "true luxury line" ?  As I just stated the XT4 costs less than the Mercedes GLA that you say is mass market appliance or whatever.  The Cadillac CT5 (their top sedan) costs less than the CLA.  Cadillac sells 3 products (of their 6) that are below the Mercedes CLA, which everyone here likes to say is cheap and down market.  And Cadillac has an XT3 coming that will slow below the XT4, the test mule out on public roads so I assume on sale next year.

On to Tesla, the weak spot of Tesla is they have a 4 vehicle line up and the Model S and X are dated and aging.  Cybertruck and Roadster have been delayed. They don't have a full size SUV or car and they don't have any compact vehicles either.  And it takes them a long time to get new product out.  The Germans will put EV's out faster and quickly have more choices than Tesla does.  Supply chain and chip shortages are hurting getting all those out, but Audi has basically 3 EV's and sport back body styles on 2 of them, so they call that 5 EV's.  Mercedes will have 5 EV's on sale in the USA by next year, maybe 6, Audi should have the electric A6 next year.   By 2025 the Germans luxury brands will have more EV's than Tesla, and they'll have better build quality and interiors and fresher styling, that is how they beat them.

Tesla does have brand name strength and mostly they vertically integrate (although Mercedes is going to make their own batteries, semiconductors and software also) so Tesla can maybe deal with supply chain issues better than most since they do a lot in house.  Tesla is strong and in good position, but they also haven't had everyone come after them all at once before.

[smk4565]

13 hours ago, balthazar said:

Cadillac sold 390K units worldwide in 2019.

Interesting how we commonly read about Tesla's global sales and you have to hunt for U.S. numbers, but it's always the inverse when talking about Cadillac.

Tesla sold 936,000 cars in 2021.

Mercedes Cars: 2,093,476.  Cars and Vans: 2,427,686

BMW (not counting Mini or Rolls) sold 2,213,795 cars which was their all time best.

Tesla is growing fast, but they are still over a million cars a year behind, and that growth rate may slow once all 40-50 car brands in the world have EV's.  And maybe Tesla gets the Cybertruck rolling, follows it up with a smaller pick up or commercial van and gets a lot of commercial business, maybe they bring out a car under the Model 3 to hit a lower price point and keep this rapid growth rate up.  I think what Tesla does and what the other car makers do to try to stop Tesla will be quite interesting over the next 5 years.

3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

I said I was staying away from this but I had to say this. Why don’t you show the EQS interior that most folks will end up buying because of price? I know why you didn’t. Everyone else knows why you didn’t. However, why didn’t you? Guess it’s tough to find it on Benz’s page because they default to the higher priced optioned interior like the one above. FFS, present ALL OF THE FACTS before touting the highest trim interior that does nothing to change that hideous excuse of an exterior from the “best or nothing”. Nothing. I choose nothing. 

I showed the EQS SUV interior (because Mercedes already put the photo out even though the full debut isn't until April 17), which is a direct competitor to the Model X.  Apples to Apples comparison, both are 3 row electric SUV's over $100k

And the hyperscreen is standard on all wheel drive EQS's.

[surreal1272]

22 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

As I just stated the XT4 costs less than the Mercedes GLA

Except the GLA is not Mercedes cheapest offering now is it? And just ignore the other facts about pricing and how it relates to Luxury anyway. It wouldn't suit your fanboy narrative.

 

. 

 

Let me just repeat what I said above.

 

"You’re not exactly making a convincing argument for Benz when you have said, in the past, that the other three brands compete more with each other than they do Benz. If those three are not upper tier luxury, as you claim, then what does that make SUVs like the GLA?"

19 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I showed the EQS SUV interior (because Mercedes already put the photo out even though the full debut isn't until April 17), which is a direct competitor to the Model X.  Apples to Apples comparison, both are 3 row electric SUV's over $100k

And the hyperscreen is standard on all wheel drive EQS's.

You could have saved the response had you actually read my correction about the model below. My core point stands. It will have the same BASE LEVEL INTERIOR as the EQS sedan so you are not, in fact, comparing all apples to all apples.

 

And I quote:

"The Mercedes EQS SUV will feature the MBUX Hyperscreen, an optional highly digital dashboard that debuted in the EQS."

[surreal1272]

31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Germans will put EV's out faster and quickly have more choices than Tesla does.

And again, the obvious bias is obvious. You act like the Germans, who are late to the game to begin with, are the only game in town to compete with Tesla. Just the dumbest of fanboy logic SMK.

[smk4565]

18 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

And again, the obvious bias is obvious. You act like the Germans, who are late to the game to begin with, are the only game in town to compete with Tesla. Just the dumbest of fanboy logic SMK.

They aren't really late, Cadillac, Lincoln, Lexus, Infiniti, Genesis, Acura, Alfa Romeo, Maserati have a collective zero EV's on sale today.  All 4 German luxury brands have at least 1 available today in the USA, Audi has 5, BMW 2, Mercedes 1 with EQE, EQB and EQS SUV on sales this year to give them 4 and EQE SUV by end of year or next year for the 5th.  Porsche has 1, obviously more coming.  I wouldn't say they are late, BMW had the i3 eight years ago and they were too early.  I think this group is right on time because the market is now interested in EV's where as 5 years I don't think EV's were 1% of the global auto market.

[surreal1272]

@smk4565--I am not going to keep going in circles with you but here are the facts. YES, they are late. They decided to put out not one, but TWO EV sedans out before even mentioning the SUV that won't come until late this year. Meanwhile, Cadillac at least had the good sense to put out an EV SUV first before considering any sedans, being that they are lower marketshare rides. Remember when you constantly whined about GM and Cadillac specially not having enough SUVs? Remember saying EXACTLY that? Well, Cadillac has one EV SUV coming out next months while Benz will have ZERO by then and it will do it for HALF THE PRICE (est. price off the EQS SUV is pegged at $114K). Like I said, late to the game.

Edited April 2, 2022 by surreal1272

[surreal1272]

@smk4565—-And it should be noted that while Cadillac is at zero EVs, they are not the only game in GMs stable. The Hummer EV is already out and it competes on a luxury level and GM has two others that have been out in the Bolt twins. Since you want to count Mercedes as a whole, it was only fair to do the same with GM. Oh and go ahead and add the Mach-E being out long before any SUV from Mercedes.