Cadillac to Debut GM's Powerful New V6 Clean Diesel

[Robert Hall]

How about a Duramax diesel in the Camaro? Diesel power sports cars will be all the rage! Give me a break.

Mark

Just thinking outside the box...I'm not limited to past ideas of what a Camaro is... besides, BMW has diesel coupes..

[cad1cts]

I would love it here....i guess i might have to buy a summer home in europe to enjoy it until then

[Imaj]

I'm all for the idea of offering a diesel in America, but they should also offer a smaller (say something like 2.0 or maybe 1.4) less expensive diesel, for those of us who cannot even afford a midsize.

[ellives]

I would like them to bring it here only if the price of diesel(gas too!) goes down. The price of diesel is still higher than gasoline prices right now and probably will only go higher along with gas prices. Right now gas in Michigan from what I've seen on average is $2.41 to $2.56 and diesel is anywhere from $2.69 to $2.80. I can only imagine what it is on the West coast. Nice engine but the damn EPA still has a stranglehold on diesels in America, causing most everyone the option not to buy one. I know too the cost of development does not help either, and the technology that goes in them to make them very clean.

The price differential is just more gouging on the part of the gas companies. More competition in the marketplace would drag the price down to match gas.

[Satty]

Diesel is the same price as regular here in SW MO.

[ToniCipriani]

Hmm... maybe a diesel G6 or Aura...

The Passat can die if this thing works well.

[David]

I would not want to deal with keeping a desiel warm here in the winter.

Unless your dealing with below freezing temps for extended length of times, months of back to back sub zero temps, modern day DI diesel engines are not needing to be kept plugged in. Alaska is the only place that I can see it makes sense besides a few midwest states where it is nice to have the vehicle start up warmer than just a cold start. Otherwise, diesel works just fine.

My diesel always starts in the cold even though I have no engine block heater. Those are old days when it was hard to get the glow plug to heat up so it can start the diesel engine.

IMO

[bcs296]

and 13mpg

not everyone want's to beat the M5 with their CTS. Some of us are just fine with the 3.6 but would like substantially better fuel efficiency.

For less than $5000 more, you can get a V8 in the Impala.... but the SS isn't *that* big a seller.

Ah, 13mpg is a worst case scenario. If you want to use the Impala as an example, I have talked to an owner of an SS who claims he gets nearly 30mpg on the highway.

With that said, a diesel would no doubt get even better mileage.

Here is a proposal:

If it has the performance, the 2.9 should be offered as an uplevel engine option, not merely a fuel sipping alternative. Many people will NOT pay $4-5k just to get a few extra mpg's (notice I didn't say everyone, because some would and do). However, if I am paying $5k for a V8 like performance upgrade over a 6 cylinder (or 6 over 4) AND much better mileage to boot, suddenly the cost becomes easier to stomach.

Edited March 7, 2007 by bcs296

[scharmer05]

Unless your dealing with below freezing temps for extended length of times, months of back to back sub zero temps, modern day DI diesel engines are not needing to be kept plugged in. Alaska is the only place that I can see it makes sense besides a few midwest states where it is nice to have the vehicle start up warmer than just a cold start. Otherwise, diesel works just fine.

My diesel always starts in the cold even though I have no engine block heater. Those are old days when it was hard to get the glow plug to heat up so it can start the diesel engine.

IMO

There was a stretch in February where it didn't get above zero for a couple of weeks except for a few days and was 20-40 below every morning. I don't drive my car every day so those January and February cold spells would definately be a problem. We have a Duramax on the farm that even has troubles unless it gets plugged in. Granted it is only short portion of the year, but it is enough for me to stay away from them, because to me they are not that desirable to begin with.

Edited March 7, 2007 by scharmer05

[scharmer05]

The price differential is just more gouging on the part of the gas companies. More competition in the marketplace would drag the price down to match gas.

Also the big difference with diesel here in the US compaired to Europe is that in the US it is a commercial fuel. On average, the people who use diesel NEED to use it. Unless a farmer isn't going to plant his crop this year or decide to leave it in the field at the end of harvest, he is going to use diesel no matter what the price is. More personal vehicles using the fuel would definately change the market for it.

[Drew Dowdell]

There was a stretch in February where it didn't get above zero for a couple of weeks except for a few days and was 20-40 below every morning.

It's plugging the thing in 3 weeks out of the year *that* much of an inconvenience in the face of 45mpg highway?

[scharmer05]

It's plugging the thing in 3 weeks out of the year *that* much of an inconvenience in the face of 45mpg highway?

This just isn't about me. Sure I could park it in my driveway instead of the Suburban and plug it in when I need to, but there are some people who have to park their car where they can't run an extention cord (i.e an apartment parking lot). If bringing this thing here really means a 5000 dollar premium on the car, even if it would get 45 miles to the gallon, it is going to take me years of driving that car to justify it. If it is worth it to pay the extra 5 grand just to use less fossil fuels, why not just buy a flex fuel vehicle, save the 5 grand, run E85, and use even less fossil fuel. It just isn't desirable in a car for me. You can feel however you want about the issue, and if it comes here and you want it then by god you should get it. This engine would make sense in small trucks and SUVs to me, where you could actually justify the extra cash for the added torque that would make for a much more capable vehicle.

[Drew Dowdell]

This just isn't about me. Sure I could park it in my driveway instead of the Suburban and plug it in when I need to, but there are some people who have to park their car where they can't run an extention cord (i.e an apartment parking lot). If bringing this thing here really means a 5000 dollar premium on the car, even if it would get 45 miles to the gallon, it is going to take me years of driving that car to justify it. If it is worth it to pay the extra 5 grand just to use less fossil fuels, why not just buy a flex fuel vehicle, save the 5 grand, run E85, and use even less fossil fuel. It just isn't desirable in a car for me. You can feel however you want about the issue, and if it comes here and you want it then by god you should get it. This engine would make sense in small trucks and SUVs to me, where you could actually justify the extra cash for the added torque that would make for a much more capable vehicle.

bring the diesel over and use 100% biodiesel.... even less fossil fuels than E85.

[David]

I understand guys that diesel is not for everyone but even then, look at what just came out of Geneva in the Press:

At France's Renault (RENA.PA), strategy chief Patrick Pelata said a lot of hybrid petrol engines gave only limited CO2 reduction for a high price, and in the end they still performed worse than a diesel.

"In Europe, a hybrid engine offers no improvement compared with a good diesel engine. With a hybrid engine, it costs you 1,000 euros to save a ton of CO2, while the quantity is priced at 30 euros on the CO2 derivatives market," Pelata said.

I tend to agree here that the cost to the enviornment of a hybrid and all the batteries and the by products created to produce batteries is no better than driving diesel.

In the end, we will eventually find a better replacement for gas. What that is I hope to see in the next 10 years.

[regfootball]

Also the big difference with diesel here in the US compaired to Europe is that in the US it is a commercial fuel. On average, the people who use diesel NEED to use it. Unless a farmer isn't going to plant his crop this year or decide to leave it in the field at the end of harvest, he is going to use diesel no matter what the price is. More personal vehicles using the fuel would definately change the market for it.

you already have the diesel tanks on the farm for your implements so its logical to want to use it in your pickups also, out of convenience, possibly.

I remember when i was a kid, we'd drive to GF and columbia mall for xmas shopping with the electra diesel and when it was like 20-30 below during the day, you would have to leave the car running while you shop, otherwise it would freeze up. Modern diesels do lots better in the cold I hear, though.

the farm belt was one place where GM diesel cars sold exceptionally well in the past. We knew lots of people who had the v8 diesels of the 80's. I seem to recall you'd look in the church parking lot on sundays and half the GM cars were diesels. GM could really clean up on diesel sales in farm states i feel.

Edited March 7, 2007 by regfootball

[jbartley]

maybe it's time congress adjusted our diesel regulations so we can actually enjoy real diesel engines, and reap the benefits of cheaper gas.

but they won't. b/c the dems love the $100 billion in taxes they took from the oil companies too much.

Edited March 8, 2007 by jbartley

[scharmer05]

you already have the diesel tanks on the farm for your implements so its logical to want to use it in your pickups also, out of convenience, possibly.

we actually only keep off-road deisel in tanks, so the one pickup on the farm that runs on diesel gets filled up at the gas station....most of the time

[thegriffon]

Scharmer has one good point. Diesel fuel in the US had been formulated to take cold-temperatures into account, however that component of the mix apparently contained the highest sulfur, so to meet the new regs on the cheap many refineries seem to have cut it out rather than purify it. As a result many users who have not had cold-weather problems before have had problems with congealed fuel this winter. Biodiesel often has an even bigger problem with fuel congealing in cold weather, although of course this varies depending on the type of organic oil used. Under the right conditions the trigycerides in organic oils will even polymerise.

[ellives]

maybe it's time congress adjusted our diesel regulations so we can actually enjoy real diesel engines, and reap the benefits of cheaper gas.

but they won't. b/c the dems love the $100 billion in taxes they took from the oil companies too much.

.... and they should take another $100 billion from those dirtbags now....

[JWilly48519]

A small turbodiesel in an AWD minivan...gimme gimme gimme.

[Sixty8panther]

People pay WAYYYYY too much for a stupid Prius... a gross ugly car

that saves very little cost and compicates maintenance & makes it

a liability to the owner once you get some miles on it, a diesel car

would be a smarter solution and they run forever. Sure people will

pay a few thousand $$$ more.

And yes, a Diesel Camaro would interest me, too bad it would not

have an inline-6 or a duramax V8.

[Drew Dowdell]

A diesel engine <in general, not counting the Olds 350d> will offer substantially longer use than any hybrid setup.

[rueben44]

GM needs to realize sometimes you have to take a financial hit to get the praise for being first for just for being current. Toyota got that idea and that is why they sold the hybrids they did at a loss and now they get all the praise. GM just do it and get those diesels over here now!!

[GMTruckGuy74]

Well I work at GM, so I know everyone's e-mail address. Well almost everyones!

You wouldn't happen to have Jill Lajdziak's e-mail, would you?

[Drew Dowdell]

GM needs to realize sometimes you have to take a financial hit to get the praise for being first for just for being current. Toyota got that idea and that is why they sold the hybrids they did at a loss and now they get all the praise. GM just do it and get those diesels over here now!!

Truth!

[deftonesfan867]

You wouldn't happen to have Jill Lajdziak's e-mail, would you?

[Imaj]

$5000 premium is a bit too much, God I hate those legislators and their stupid emission standards. If only we were like Europe!

[SS427]

California regs for passenger cars is Tier 2 Bin 5, too...

Yes, but California also has CARB (California Air Research Board?) that adds additional emissions requirements to cars and trucks beyond Bin 5 Tier 2, which make their regualtions the most restrictive of any state in the union, I had heard that New York and Mass. were going to follow Cali's lead in the near future if they haven't already.

[aaaantoine]

maybe it's time congress adjusted our diesel regulations so we can actually enjoy real diesel engines, and reap the benefits of cheaper gas.

but they won't. b/c the dems love the $100 billion in taxes they took from the oil companies too much.

What, you mean to tell me Exxon/Mobil doesn't make money on diesel?

Where does everyone suppose that diesel comes from? It's not an alternative to fossil fuels. It's just another type of fossil fuel.

That said, I would welcome the option of having diesel engines available for purchase, considering their monstrous torque and fuel efficiency.

[Drew Dowdell]

What, you mean to tell me Exxon/Mobil doesn't make money on diesel?

Where does everyone suppose that diesel comes from? It's not an alternative to fossil fuels. It's just another type of fossil fuel.

That said, I would welcome the option of having diesel engines available for purchase, considering their monstrous torque and fuel efficiency.

Biodiesel is an alternative to fossil diesel..... and *all* diesels built after about 1996 are automatically flex fuel.

[Moriarty]

A $5000 premium on a CTS isn't so much of a problem and so that car would be a great place to put that diesel. However, notice that there's about a $5000 premium on the Cobalt SS over the basic Cobalt and a $6000 premium on the Malibu SS over the basic Malibu. Now I understand that much of the SS's premium goes straight into profit, but I think that if GM could get that diesel into those cars, and sell it for the same price as the SS's, even if they don't make much of a profit, it will be worth it in the long run. Not only is a great performance engine for cars of their size, but I believe it will be seen as a major move of GM towards being environmentally friendly--a move that Toyota has yet to take. GM will be taking the lead, not just playing catch-up.

In many ways, putting this engine in various GM products could be compared to Toyota's selling of the Prius (for less than it took them to make it); only even better. Instead of a single car stuffed with various systems that give better gas mileage, GM will be selling an entire range of vehicles (really, is there any car/truck that GM COULDN'T foreseeably adapt this engine for?) that have an option to get great gas mileage, extraordinary torque, and amazing reliability, along with perfectly decent horsepower. Yes, GM may have to take a $$ hit for it somewhat, but think of the possible benefits: good publicity, an 'environmentally friendly' and 'reliable' public image, more sales, a product that Toyota can't compete with, and early experience with technology that is likely to become more and more important in the future.

Oh yeah, it is important to note that while initially the diesel might take a $5000 premium, as GM expands the number of vehicles they use it for, undoubtedly that price will go down.

All and all, this is what I say: GM, go for it!

[SimonDavid]

The 5 grand is only a penalty if you don't get it back at resale time, which in Europe at least you do.

Anyway what's wrong with simply building it to demand, if youre selling it in europe anyway? Let the market decide

[David]

maybe it's time congress adjusted our diesel regulations so we can actually enjoy real diesel engines, and reap the benefits of cheaper gas.

but they won't. b/c the dems love the $100 billion in taxes they took from the oil companies too much.

Dude, it is just not the Dems but also the big time Repubs that love that tax money. Remember an Oil Man hooked on Defense sits in the white house.

[sciguy_0504]

For some reason I am not buying Bob's assertion that an extra $5,000 will have to be added to the price of a diesel-powered car. Does VW charge a $5,000 premium on its diesels? How about DCX? Honda has been talking about selling diesels in the U.S. market and I highly doubt they will have such a high premium. Note that I am not included Benz and Audi in this discussion because they are luxury manufacturers, they can pretty much charge whatever they want to.

My guess is that GM either does not have the diesel expertise to meet mass market emission requirements and/or it would cost a lot of money to build a family of diesels so it would only want to build one or two engines to sell in other parts of the world. Perhaps DCX and VW can sell their vehicles in the U.S. without such a high premium because they actually have a family of diesel engines and what they sell in other parts of the world subsidize what they sell in the U.S.?

[ellives]

Dude, it is just not the Dems but also the big time Repubs that love that tax money. Remember an Oil Man hooked on Defense sits in the white house.

Uh you left out something. A DUMBASS Oil Man hooked on Defense sits in the white house.

[sciguy_0504]

I'd rather have a dumbass hooked on defense than a dumbass hooked on socialized healthcare, high taxes and incessant regulation over every little aspect of life (ie. any random European leader).

[Drew Dowdell]

and incessant regulation over every little aspect of life (ie. any random European leader).

you mean like who we can marry

when we can die

whether or not to have an abortion

amongst other things....

[ellives]

I'd rather have a dumbass hooked on defense than a dumbass hooked on socialized healthcare, high taxes and incessant regulation over every little aspect of life (ie. any random European leader).

You sound amazingly like a right wing whack job. It's always extremes with them and always with the "fear, uncertainty and doubt." Can't we find some middle ground? You can stick your head in the ground if you want and claim Bush isn't for high taxes and I'll point out very easily he's just dumping his spending on future generations. If we're spending for the war, we should all be feeling the pain instead of just the military. You can argue against socialized healthcare and I'll point out easily the giveaways to the drug companies we provided with Medicare part D. Regulations are implemented in response to criminal behavior. How do you propose we response to criminal behavior? Ignore it? Sheesh.

[Satty]

GeeDubs is more addicted to going on the offense, which was fine for Afghanistan, questionable for Iraq, and so far unecessary for Iran, although I'm sure he'll find a way in the next two years. I will admit that North Korea, while it hasn't been handled in the greatest fashion, hasn't been bungled completely, a rare victory for our Commander in(ept) Chief.

[ellives]

GeeDubs is more addicted to going on the offense, which was fine for Afghanistan, questionable for Iraq, and so far unecessary for Iran, although I'm sure he'll find a way in the next two years. I will admit that North Korea, while it hasn't been handled in the greatest fashion, hasn't been bungled completely, a rare victory for our Commander in(ept) Chief.

He does seemed to have softened his stance on many things. Attribute that to whatever you want. Dealing with foreign policy requires finesse which GWB has none of. The jury is still out on NK as we've been through this routine before however, if you really look at what's happened there, they didn't kick the inspectors out and build a bomb until they were called out as part of the "axis of evil." Personally if I lived in a country that had been labeled in the same way I'd probably do the same thing. I'm not saying it's right or wrong - just human nature and very predictable. Something a president should have ancitipated.

[geozinger]

People on this thread have had some good comments about diesel, and I'd like to add mine.

FWIW, if GM were to bring that diesel here, I would hope it would land in the Epsilon chassis. I would REALLY hope that there would be a relatively inexpensive Chevy version (cough Malibu cough), but I could see it in a Pontiac as an alternative high performance car, or in a Caddy as a true luxury car.

If it does come to pass, GM would have the most extensive and potentially green mid-size car lineup ever. Think about it, you will be able to get: Ecotec/6spd, 3.6HF/6spd, BAS Ecotec mild-Hybrid, and then the 2.9 diesel... Add a 3.5 or 3.9 OHC with E85 capability (+6 speed) and it WOULD be the most green/best performing GM line up ever...

Not to mention the VOLT!

It gives this current GM customer much hope, really.

[Satty]

I'm in the process of emailing Bob Lutz about a diesel Astra that I would love to own. Also going to suggest the Twin Top and Zafira find there ways over here.

[sciguy_0504]

He does seemed to have softened his stance on many things. Attribute that to whatever you want. Dealing with foreign policy requires finesse which GWB has none of. The jury is still out on NK as we've been through this routine before however, if you really look at what's happened there, they didn't kick the inspectors out and build a bomb until they were called out as part of the "axis of evil." Personally if I lived in a country that had been labeled in the same way I'd probably do the same thing. I'm not saying it's right or wrong - just human nature and very predictable. Something a president should have ancitipated.

You failed science class in school, didn't you? It doesn't take a few months to build a nuclear bomb, try a few years. NK was building nukes a long time before Bush got in office but of course people such as yourself (diagnosed with BDS) like to gloss over the fact that Clinton was more interested in getting head in the Oval Office than actually doing his job. Try doing some research on the matter, including looking into illegal foreign campaign donations by Chinese nationals in return for defense secrets that were then sold to the North Koreans.

Satty: I'm sure Bush will "find a way" to go to war with Iran in the next two years. Unfortunately, the reason will be in the form of a mushroom cloud. I just hope no one on C&G is in the middle of it.

Edit:

You sound amazingly like a right wing whack job.

Wow, you can read me like a book! You sound amazingly like a liberal who resorts to name calling when he doesn't like someone's opinions. So much for the "open mind" stereotype.

Now back on topic...

Edited March 10, 2007 by sciguy_0504

[ellives]

You failed science class in school, didn't you? It doesn't take a few months to build a nuclear bomb, try a few years. NK was building nukes a long time before Bush got in office but of course people such as yourself (diagnosed with BDS) like to gloss over the fact that Clinton was more interested in getting head in the Oval Office than actually doing his job. Try doing some research on the matter, including looking into illegal foreign campaign donations by Chinese nationals in return for defense secrets that were then sold to the North Koreans.

Satty: I'm sorry Bush will "find a way" to go to war with Iran in the next two years. Unfortunately, the reason will be in the form of a mushroom cloud. I just hope no one on C&G is in the middle of it.

Get your facts straight please (typical whack job glossing over and twisting the facts. Must be the Cheney school of facts.) The "axis of evil" speech was on January 29, 2002 and NK triggered their bomb on October 9, 2006. I'd say that's almost 5 years and not "a few months." I'll take my apology any time. If you actually listen to the news you'll recall just recently the UN weapons inspectors determined NK had indeed NOT been working on a bomb until likely AFTER the speech. How is illegal campaign contributions anyone other than the US government's responsibility?

Let's not get started on the Lewinsky affair. Look at the Repubican's own fearless leader just this week admitted to having his own affair while leading the charge against Clinton. There is no honor in politics and Gingrich is a liar. Plain and simple.

Mushroom cloud.... there you go again with the fear uncertainty and doubt. Sounds suspiciously like "The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." and "Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud." Oh yeah those aren't your words they're Bush words. Same technique though.

Come back when you learn how to make an argument and can defend it.

Edited March 11, 2007 by ellives

[Satty]

I got an email back from Bob Lutz, similar to Oldsmoboi's so not really worth posting, its just good to know that my feelings about a diesel Astra have been heard.

[ellives]

I got an email back from Bob Lutz, similar to Oldsmoboi's so not really worth posting, its just good to know that my feelings about a diesel Astra have been heard.

Has to feel good knowing they're listening.

[Member55]

Even a 5K premium would not turn me off from buying a Diesel AWD CTS.

This would rock. I take this over a hybrid any day.

How many years would it take you to save $5K? Except the fuel economy are there any other reasons you want a Diesel?

[Drew Dowdell]

Not everything is based on money.

[Member55]

Not everything is based on money.

What would it be based on?

[Member55]

Not everything is based on money.

What would it be based on?