Z-06

V-8 Camaros to be more expensive??

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Camaro Goes Hybrid, As GM Axes Rear-Drive Impala, LaCrosse?

General Motors has been forced to rework the investment case for the Chevrolet Camaro in the wake of new fuel-economy rules adopted this past December.

The Camaro will still be built, but higher-end V-8 versions likely will be priced higher than expected. As for other planned GM rear-drivers–a new Chevrolet Impala, Buick LaCrosse and the replacement for the Pontiac G8 due this spring–all have been dropped along with a new V-8 engine GM was contemplating building.

"You can't kill something that was never approved," said one GM official, who asked for anonymity but who confirmed the rear-wheel-drive projects are now dead.

Stew Low, a spokesman for GM of Canada, said the Camaro project is safe and is moving forward. The GM of Canada plant in Oshawa, Ontario outside of Toronto should be ready to build the first Camaro late this year, Low said.

Buzz Hargrove, president of the Canadian Auto Workers union, said that GM is spending $2.5 billion in Oshawa - including $435 million from the Ontario and Canadian federal governments.

"We anticipated that would be followed by other rear-wheel-drive vehicles, but the money they spent on the plant makes it a flex plant, so you can build both front-drive and rear-wheel-drive in the facility,'' Hargrove told reporters in Canada.

Only a proposal for new ultra-luxury rear-wheel-drive Cadillac seems to still have a chance of making it through GM's product development process and into production. Even that project, though, may well depend on how the Environmental Protection Agency writes the rules enforcing the new fuel-economy standards.

The death of the other rear-drive GM vehicles also has implications for the final pricing of the Camaro when it goes on sale next year.

Last year, GM vice chairman Robert Lutz had told TheCarConnection.com that the rear-wheel-drive platform developed for the Camaro would support other vehicles as part of GM's effort to make the project financially manageable. Spinning more vehicles from one platform spreads the costs around and is the most efficient and effective way for GM to use its available capital, Lutz has said.

As part of global product strategy GM plans to use fewer but more flexible platforms that would accommodate a wider range of vehicles and vehicle designs. Specifically, the new Camaro platform could be used for other rear-drive vehicles, Lutz said he said before the fuel-economy debate had heated up in Congress.

Part of the reason for the delay in moving forward with the Camaro project revolved around extending the utility of the fundamental architecture so it could serve as the platform for other vehicles as well, he said.

The new fuel-economy rules, however, have basically forced GM to reconsider its extensive plans for rear-wheel-drive vehicles. Rear-wheel-drive trucks and SUVs are safe for now because the new federal rules will allow some wiggle room for trucks. GM, though, is not in a position to absorb the roughly 1-mpg fuel-economy penalty that comes with building rear-wheel-drive passenger cars, GM insiders said in the wake of the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.

However, GM's decision to scrap the other rear-drive models is putting an enormous cost burden on the new Camaro.

GM officials are saying they should be able to recover some of the investment costs in the new rear-wheel-drive platform by selling the vehicles in places such as Australia, the Middle East and China. Australia, however, has a new government that takes global warming very seriously. China is imposing new fuel-economy standards that are as tough as those found in the United States and one of the largest vehicle markets in the Middle East, Iran, is off limits to American car companies.

Nevertheless, GM desperately wants to price the new Camaro competitively against vehicles like the new Dodge Challenger and particularly the Ford Mustang, which pretty much inherited the segment after GM withdrew the Camaro earlier in the decade.

With a new generation of rear-wheel-drive vehicles consigned to the never-built file somewhere in the company's engineering office, GM now is working on a plan B for Camaro.

GM chairman Richard Wagoner has already confirmed a V-6 engine will be part of the Camaro package.

While the concept Camaro has come with V-8 engine, a V-6 would serve as basic engine for the production Camaro and would help keep prices competitive.

Meanwhile, Tom Stephens, the head of GM's Powertrain Group, told reporters recently that turbocharging can help boost both fuel economy and horsepower.

The V-8 version of the Camaro is very likely carry a substantial premium and GM is thought to have assigned a team of engineers to work out how to apply its new dual-mode hybrid system for an even more expensive version of the Camaro.

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"GM, though, is not in a position to absorb the roughly 1-mpg fuel-economy penalty " 1 MPG???? That sounds like BS.

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I wouldnt be terribly opposed to a high torque V6 diesel in the Camaro. New Diesels pretty well go with the old muscle car philosophy anyways.

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The article sounds to me like PCS making his point. ;)

Regardless, the theory and explanation given in the article are too vague. Just a rough estimate is that to recover the "volume" of the Zetas, GM may have to increase the price of only V-8's by $ 6-7K. That is being ultra unrealistic. They can never get them out of the door at that price leap.

Moreover, V-6 for majority of market share anyways, so stating that V-6 exists for the Camaro is like stating the obvious. It seems like GM insiders are giving a sweet first (by showing the RWD Denali Concept) and hitting with a baton with this news. The 1mpg theory is ridiculous. If this asinine theory exists and becomes a reality, it would be fun to watch Impala and Malibu killing each other if they both go FWD (according to these "brand strategists"), and then GM can really talk about loss both monetory and market share. LaCrosse was never designated to be a RWD it is the Lucerne which was the concern so stating LaCrosse being killed is humorous. Again, this article, I think upto a certain extent is BS and or hidden FWD humpers agenda to get out in the public.

This idea if moves to fruition will end up damaging, as it shows GM's inability to not innovate and stick to old ideas of "corporate culture" read bean countering.

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Welp, it looks as if our car culture is coming to an end...

The spoilsports have all suceeded in making cars appliances and blobs without personality (Unless you're an electricity humping snot-nosed geek)

If this is the way of the future, then F-U GM and F-U Congress. I'll have fun driving my classics.

This is the last straw... If GM fails to produce desireable cars after giving us proverbial blue balls for 6 years now, I'm out.

Funny that Ford, Chrysler and Hyundai can all make RWD 'work'. Guess I'll buy from them.

Oh, and FWIW, I'll not buy a hybrid Camaro either unless they can somehow incorporate a manual tranny.

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what if the 3.6L becomes e-85 ready, they use the 4.9L as the ~30% volume and the 6.2L as 5-10% volume?

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I call BS as well. 1-mpg penalty? So lighten up the weight some. It doesn't even have to be expensive like carbon fiber or aluminum...more like interior stuff. Carve out the seatbacks like in the Malibu or AURA...they're still perfectly comfortable. Narrow the front passenger seats slightly and have a wider console storage bin. A 5-mpg penalty would be difficult, but I don't believe for a second that GM has been around this long and cannot engineer around an alleged 1-mpg penalty.

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GM, though, is not in a position to absorb the roughly 1-mpg fuel-economy penalty that comes with building rear-wheel-drive passenger cars

Most pathetic excuse I have ever heard for not building a RWD car. Shove a f@#king lawnmower engine in the damn Aveo to make up the stupid 1mpg difference for building one damn car.

You could build the Impala for volume and stuff a hybrid powertrain in it. It's completely pointless if the car is FWD, they might as well just scrap the car all together.

If they dare cancel the Cadillac RWD vehicle then they might as well close up shop. What are you gonna do? Give us a Cadillac Astra?! The Germans don't pussy out when the going gets tough. They Innovate.

Pretty sad that Ford's got more balls than GM at this point to build RWD architecture, and Hyundai too. Chrysler will be in its second generation RWD platform. <_<

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ford will soon only really have 2 1/2 brands and of course no carl/peter........mebbe that's why

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Regardless, the theory and explanation given in the article are too vague. Just a rough estimate is that to recover the "volume" of the Zetas, GM may have to increase the price of only V-8's by $ 6-7K. That is being ultra unrealistic. They can never get them out of the door at that price leap.

Base Mustang starts at $19,490.

Mustang GT starts at $26,080.

Price premium for the V8 engine = $6,590.

Ford set a precedent GM can and should have no problem following. That is, if GM doesn't set the starting price of the base Camaro too high.

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FOG, im with you... lets snap up the rest of the classic iron while we can! :P

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I would not panic yet untill you see something from GM on this.

Most of this is is so very clouded and there are part that appear not to be true based on what the Fbodfater said last night.

He pointed out the plant is a flex plant but no one knows on the outside what GM has planned. THis was in a thread someone claimed the Camaro was going hybrid. He would not say what was not true but the way he stated no one knows inlined that there was a lot of inaccurate info.

The only thing for sure is there will be a few changes but untill we get a reliable scource I would not panic yet.

I see too many people still posting with authority that the Firebird is comming back but we all know the truth on that. It's not!

Watch for post by Settlemire and Lutz as if there is some big change they will be the first accurate posting.

Here is Settlmire statment on the hybrid Camaro and this very post.

All purely conjecture on the part of the author.

Oshawa will be a flex-plant -- so we'll be able to build other vehicles in that plant.

CAFE changes everything...........but right now, no one on the outside knows what we're going to do...........

Note I do not see panic there as of yet as I have in times there was bad news in the past.

Edited by hyperv6
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Only a proposal for new ultra-luxury rear-wheel-drive Cadillac seems to still have a chance of making it through GM's product development process and into production. Even that project, though, may well depend on how the Environmental Protection Agency writes the rules enforcing the new fuel-economy standards.

So the DTS/STS are ultra-lux cars? Are the 7-Sries BMWs and S-Class MBs ultra-lux? What does that make the Rolls and Bentleys: ultra-stratospheric-you-can't-afford-this-thing-luxury-cars? :rotflmao:

Edited by ZL-1
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They lost me after the title. There never was a RWD Buick LaCrosse planned. Perhaps they haven't yet seen the Epsilon II LaCrosse spy shots.

Still, I can see the case for making the V8 Camaro more expensive IF the rumors are true that a ~320hp version of the DI 3.6L will find its way into a Camaro. That would match up fairly well against a Mustang GT (which will likely have its price increased as well, don't forget), and I think that would end up being the most popular engine chosen. Having that engine would allow GM to push the V8 into more exclusive territory, justifying the higher expense.

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Base Mustang starts at $19,490.

Mustang GT starts at $26,080.

Price premium for the V8 engine = $6,590.

Ford set a precedent GM can and should have no problem following. That is, if GM doesn't set the starting price of the base Camaro too high.

What I meant was 6-8K beyond the existing premium which one pays for the V-8's. Which means a base price of 32-34K. Good luck shoving those in the throats of the customers.

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What I meant was 6-8K beyond the existing premium which one pays for the V-8's. Which means a base price of 32-34K. Good luck shoving those in the throats of the customers.

Ah, gotcha. Then I agree with you.

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They lost me after the title. There never was a RWD Buick LaCrosse planned. Perhaps they haven't yet seen the Epsilon II LaCrosse spy shots.

Probably a typo..there was a RWD Lucerne replacement talked about, wasn't there?

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Probably a typo..there was a RWD Lucerne replacement talked about, wasn't there?

Yup, there was a grapevine for RWD Lucerne, but not the LaCrosse.

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The Camaro will still be built, but higher-end V-8 versions likely will be priced higher than expected. As for other planned GM rear-drivers–a new Chevrolet Impala, Buick LaCrosse and the replacement for the Pontiac G8 due this spring–all have been dropped along with a new V-8 engine GM was contemplating building.

Yeah ...

They lost me after the title. There never was a RWD Buick LaCrosse planned. Perhaps they haven't yet seen the Epsilon II LaCrosse spy shots.

+1

And a new G8 was supposed to debut in the spring of '08, only after the recently introduced model came on the market? Uh, yeah, this article lacks creditentials.

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I place a sliver of truth here and a great amount of speculation.

At this point the Impala and Lucerne are either on hold or gone. The Impala was set to show in Detroit this year was a no show so that is not a good sign.

The Lecrosse is going to stay FWD so no change here. It is not to long till we see this car.

The Camaro can and will be priced with the Mustang as it is too late to change much. The life cycle of this car can go on for a while as the CAFE is 10 years off and I would hope the present car is replaced my then with a 6th gen.

The Future may be a V8 only available in a top end Z28 for $40,000 plus and a Turbo V6 in the standard performance package. But I only see this happening if the price of gas move on up or they go to a 6th Gen.

The big key right now is if the Impala is gone what do they build on the Camaro line. It is a flex plant but what do they add? The New GMC XT?

Scott has also pointed out there Camaro will be exported which eill increase sales and help fill the void by the Monaro based coupe around the world.

At this point I would not let this post scare or panic. GM is just trying to map the future out right now and even within the walls very few know what all is going to happen as well what all plans will change again as nothin is set 100%.

Just watch what Settlmire and Lutz offer in insite as they are our best place to get info as they are the ones who really know what is up.

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The Camaro can and will be priced with the Mustang as it is too late to change much.

I wanna come back and look at this quote when the pricing for the Camaro comes out.

I would bet the Camaro is gonna be priced alot higher than many are predicting and hoping, which won't be good for sales in the long run IMO......

Prices will be set according to product, if they don't cut corners with the Camaro don't expect it to be a bargain when it comes out. :AH-HA_wink:

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Prices will be set according to product, if they don't cut corners with the Camaro don't expect it to be a bargain when it comes out. :AH-HA_wink:

Nothing but speculation here. The car has to be priced as competitively as GM can make it. If it's thousands more than the Mustang, then, quite obviously, it will sell like a batch of coldcakes. I don't think GM, and especially the Camaro guys who have been pressing for this car for quite sometime, are going to hand over sales like that to their cross-town rival and see the car fail in the market. Don't kid yourself.

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I wanna come back and look at this quote when the pricing for the Camaro comes out.

I would bet the Camaro is gonna be priced alot higher than many are predicting and hoping, which won't be good for sales in the long run IMO......

Prices will be set according to product, if they don't cut corners with the Camaro don't expect it to be a bargain when it comes out. :AH-HA_wink:

Scott Setlemire said the Camaro will be match as close as possible to the Mustang price points.

Form other thing he has noted it will be a little more but will provide a much better equipt value than the Mustang.

I expect a Base car [but keep in mind it will not be a stipped car] to start around $24,900 and the V8 around $27,900. By the time you get most of the add on's you will see the price grow to 3,000 or 4,000 more over sticker.

While the base car will come in a little more than a Mustang it will have features not even available on the Mustang. In other words for a little more you get a lot more for your money.

Tax, title, dealer rip offs excluded.

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I expect a Base car [but keep in mind it will not be a stipped car] to start around $24,900 and the V8 around $27,900. By the time you get most of the add on's you will see the price grow to 3,000 or 4,000 more over sticker.

I hope your right hyp that is about I'll I would pay for a V8 powered muscle car. Anything more than 28K for a V8 powered Camaro with no options won't sell. I don't mind a V6 for volume but seriously who want's a V6 in a muscle car as the high performance engine (and then a top level V8 above a N/A V6 and a Turbo V6) this is really gonna suck. Put a (3.6L DOHC VVT)275ish hp in the base V6 and a (4.9L or 6.0L AFM and VVT) 350ish hp V8 in the Z28/SS and run with it, if you want a ZL-1 drop in a 6.2 with 435hp. Then for the V6 do about 24,500 then V8 (mid level motor) Z28 27,750 then V8 (mid level motor) SS 31,500 then a ZL1 hi-po 6.2 V8 (36,500). If pricing gets much higher than this don't plan on selling a bunch of them. I want to see a low price V8 model under 28K I don't want a V6 for that kind of money.

Edited by gm4life
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I certainly hope the Zeta Lucerne isn't dead...

But then again, I guess it'd be easy enough to import the Park Avenue as a halo instead.

So we'd have a FWD Lacrosse, FWD Lucerne and RWD Park Avenue (Or whatever they call it)

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