The Never Ending Story: More Rumors With The Cadillac Flagships

[William Maley]

The Never Ending Story: More Rumors With The Cadillac Flagships

William Maley - Editor/Reporter - CheersandGears.com

April 26, 2011

Cadillac has been dreaming about building a flagship sedan for the longest time, going as far to build the Sixteen concept in 2003. Rumors since then about the flagship Cadillac have only grown ranging from a production version of the Sixteen to a S-Class/7-Series/A8 fighter. Now, Car & Driver sheds some light on some new rumors on two flagships from the crest and wreath.

Rumor #1 deals with the S-Class/7-Series/A8 fighter. Previously, the rumors said the vehicle would be using an extended version of the Alpha RWD platform that would underpin the ATS and next-generation CTS. Now, insiders tell C&D that the flagship will ride on a brand new platform called Omega and will come with a range of V6, V8, hybrid, and diesel powertrains going through either RWD or AWD. As for technology and other bits, that still remains in the dark.

Rumor #2 deals with a vehicle going after the Rolls-Royce Phantom. The Phantom competitor will utilize the Omega platform. The chances of this vehicle seeing the light of day are slim to none.

Source: Car & Driver

[Drew Dowdell]

Wait.... another new platform?

[William Maley]

Wait.... another new platform?

Yeah... Does GM really need another platform right now?

Down the line, sure I can understand. Give Cadillac it's own platform to help differentiate itself from the other brands. But now?

[Robert Hall]

Interesting...first I've heard of Omega...maybe the successor to Zeta?

[Intrepidation]

Another day, another Cadillac flagship rumor.

[ZL-1]

Interesting...first I've heard of Omega...maybe the successor to Zeta?

I refer to one of AH-HA's posts: "I am Alpha and Omega, the begginning and the end", IIRC. Byblical quotes rule, especially when they translate into two new RWD platforms

EDIT - On another note, I think it's time GM/Cadillac stopped talking and developed the damn car. Just a thought...

Edited April 27, 2011 by ZL-1

[dwightlooi]

If the Alpha can be stretched that far and/or the Omega can be greenlighted it'll make a good addition to the Caddy lineup which they sorely lack. The engines are not that hard to conjure... the ubiquitous (by then) LFX 3.6 DI DOHC-V6 making 318~323 hp with or without a Dual-Mode Hybrid tranny. A 6.2 liter DI Pushrod-V8 in the 430~470hp range. And, possibly, for true flagship credentials a 7.2 liter V12 based on siamesing two 3.6 liter V6s and generating 630~650hp. The V6 and V8 models will be the volume drivrers. The V12 can be a limited production rate car with a hand built motor.

[z28luvr01]

Well, Big Ed did order Cadillac to build a RWD flagship back when he was calling the shots. It's anybody's guess if Akerson stepped in and muddied that while simultaneously being aloof and making asinine comments to the press.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I know the goddess Veritas ...

[ZL-1]

I know the goddess Veritas ...

Isn't that a Australian-Korean goddess?

[GMTruckGuy74]

I know the goddess Veritas ...

In vino veritas... must I give you some to learn of what you know?

[smk4565]

While fun to speculate about it, the rumors have been going on for 8 years and still no word on if they will actually do it. Part of me thinks Cadillac just wants to keep teasing it so it seems like they are a top tier brand and they want to expand their offerings.

Since 2003, the A8 and XJ have improved, the Hyundai Equus came at the low end, and cars like the Panamera, Rapide, and Quattroporte have filled in the high end sports luxury niches. This market is becoming more and more crowded, Cadillac is awfully late to the game. Although that being said, I think Cadillac needs a car in there, and it does need a brand new platform like Omega.

Problem is cost. It's too expensive to build, and they won't sell enough of them. The bean counters will hate this car.

[hyperv6]

They will get to it but a Halo Cars don't pay the bills. Also with a depressed economy it is not the best time to get people to spend a lot of money on a unproven car.

Once the ATS and new CTS are on line and the rest of the line up starts to fall into place they will pull this one out. I suspect they have a better idea of what the will do just not a good handle on when they will do it. When the time is right they will have something to show. I suspect while not next year it is not too far off.

[smk4565]

They will get to it but a Halo Cars don't pay the bills.

They do when it's the Mercedes S-class.

Problem is Cadillac needs credibility, which could be gained with a successful flagship, however, the flagship probably won't sell because of their brand image. They are sort of in a lose-lose.

[Z-06]

While fun to speculate about it, the rumors have been going on for 8 years and still no word on if they will actually do it. Part of me thinks Cadillac just wants to keep teasing it so it seems like they are a top tier brand and they want to expand their offerings.

Since 2003, the A8 and XJ have improved, the Hyundai Equus came at the low end, and cars like the Panamera, Rapide, and Quattroporte have filled in the high end sports luxury niches. This market is becoming more and more crowded, Cadillac is awfully late to the game. Although that being said, I think Cadillac needs a car in there, and it does need a brand new platform like Omega.

Problem is cost. It's too expensive to build, and they won't sell enough of them. The bean counters will hate this car.

They will get to it but a Halo Cars don't pay the bills.

They do when it's the Mercedes S-class.

Problem is Cadillac needs credibility, which could be gained with a successful flagship, however, the flagship probably won't sell because of their brand image. They are sort of in a lose-lose.

How can those be used in the same topic? Hyundai has ZERO credibility and brand image when it comes to luxury.

[hyperv6]

They will get to it but a Halo Cars don't pay the bills.

They do when it's the Mercedes S-class.

Problem is Cadillac needs credibility, which could be gained with a successful flagship, however, the flagship probably won't sell because of their brand image. They are sort of in a lose-lose.

Cadillac ain't Mercedes. Even then the S is still not their profit center.

Cadillac needs to do as BMW did with the 3 series. BMW was a niche car till the 70's and then were maketed well. This whole deal was built on the back of the 3 series cars not the 6 or 7. Build quality cars people love in volume and at prices that they can afford. Then once you gain their trust then offer the more expensiver stuff.

If you can't get someone to get out the 3 Series to get into a CTS or the ATS they still have some work to do. You win their hearts and trust with these cars and then you build on it.

Cadillac is close to gaining the rep they need and they just need more buyers now. The next gen CTS and the ATS should be about right and prime to make a dent in the market. At least in the states.

Just because you can build a $100,000 does not win cedibility. Getting more people to take a chance on a class leading $40K Cadillac will win more credibility than anything else. I think they have learned this from the last two attempts at a 2 seat roadster.

[Z-06]

They will get to it but a Halo Cars don't pay the bills.

They do when it's the Mercedes S-class.

Problem is Cadillac needs credibility, which could be gained with a successful flagship, however, the flagship probably won't sell because of their brand image. They are sort of in a lose-lose.

Cadillac ain't Mercedes. Even then the S is still not their profit center.

Cadillac needs to do as BMW did with the 3 series. BMW was a niche car till the 70's and then were maketed well. This whole deal was built on the back of the 3 series cars not the 6 or 7. Build quality cars people love in volume and at prices that they can afford. Then once you gain their trust then offer the more expensiver stuff.

If you can't get someone to get out the 3 Series to get into a CTS or the ATS they still have some work to do. You win their hearts and trust with these cars and then you build on it.

Cadillac is close to gaining the rep they need and they just need more buyers now. The next gen CTS and the ATS should be about right and prime to make a dent in the market. At least in the states.

Just because you can build a $100,000 does not win cedibility. Getting more people to take a chance on a class leading $40K Cadillac will win more credibility than anything else. I think they have learned this from the last two attempts at a 2 seat roadster.

SMK is right. S class, not C-class is MB's cash cow.

With sales of the Mercedes-Benz S-Class down 23 percent in the United States, and off nearly 12 percent worldwide, Daimler officials are showing concern. The luxurious S-Class is the most profitable model in the lineup, contributing up to an estimated 25 percent of Daimler's pre-tax profits, the drop is getting painful. With the exception of the new C-Class (up 38 percent), overall sales for the German automaker have fallen in the first six months of the year. In response, Daimler is diverting shipments of vehicles to China and Russia as those emerging markets have yet to see a slowdown.

Put it this way - the cost of design, engineering and development of a new vehicle is more or less the same regardless of the size. To make profits on smaller cars volume is important to make profits on larger cars pricing is more important. That is why BMW is putting 5er and 7er on same platform to make sure development costs are kept minimal and profits are maximized.

Traditionally for Germans the 3er has been BMW's meal tickets, S Class is Mercedes' cash cow.

[smk4565]

Cadillac ain't Mercedes. Even then the S is still not their profit center.

The S-class pretty much is their profit center. In 2011, Mercedes sales are up 13%, but the S-class is up 25%. Pre-tax profit rose 58%, and their post tax profit of $1.75 billion in the first quarter exceeds their entire 2010 total. When the S-class is up, Mercedes profit is up. A couple years ago when the economy took a big downturn and S-class sales dropped, Daimler's profit dropped considerably.

[smk4565]

[quote name='Z-06' timestamp='1304043789' post='660604'

How can those be used in the same topic? Hyundai has ZERO credibility and brand image when it comes to luxury.

I was only stating that the Equus has filled in the low end slot of the uber-sedan market. Equus has the $55-65k range, Lexus $65k+, Jaguar, BMW, Audi all come in the $70s-100k, S-class at $93-200k, and the Quattroporte, Rapide, and Panamera at different price points of the 4 door sports car market. Each niche is filled at this point, so Cadillac has a tough decision on where to place their car.

And Hyundai when compared to Honda, Toyota, Ford or Chevy is looking like they have a lot of credibility. The Equus isn't really here to sell, it is here so they can sell Sonatas. Although the Equus is better than anything Acura, Lincoln, Volvo, Saab or some of these luxury brands can offer. I mean just look at the Equus vs the ancient DTS or even the XTS. If I'm a competitor, I'm scared of what Hyundai could be in 10 years.

[dwightlooi]

I think 30-45-75 is not a bad bad strategy for a luxury marque.

That is... Assuming that you have three models... a compact, a midsize and a flagship they peg their average price at $30K, $45K and $75K. $15K separates the entry level model from the mid-tier model. $30K separates that from the flagship.

For Cadillac, that means:-

• ATS -- $30K
  
• CTS -- $45K
  
• XTS -- $45K
  
• STS --- $75K
  

Now, remember that this is the average price. You can spend $28K or $35K on an ATS. But a typical example sells for around $30K. By this pricing scheme, the CTS (which currently starts at $35,165 and sells for about $40K reasonably equipped) will have to move $5K upmarket. This brings it inline with BMW 5-series pricing. The XTS will basically be the same price, but biased towards ES350 type buyers who want roominess, refinement and luxury but not necessary driving dynamics and performance (This car really should be a Buick, but... oh well.) The ATS on the other hand will move downmarket by a good $5K so its there with the TSXes and IS250s of the world. Makes sense if it is to have a 4-pot turbo as its mainstream powerplant. This leaves the room open for a $75K full size which doesn't have to make compromises to stay cheap.

[smk4565]

I pretty much agree with Dwight's tiers but I think they could push the prices a little higher. The ATS should base at least $32k, that is where the A4 and G25 start. CTS should start mid-40s. Cadillac needs to get into the middle of the market, not be the low cost alternative in each segment.

[ZL-1]

I pretty much agree with Dwight's tiers but I think they could push the prices a little higher. The ATS should base at least $32k, that is where the A4 and G25 start. CTS should start mid-40s. Cadillac needs to get into the middle of the market, not be the low cost alternative in each segment.

agreed.

[Drew Dowdell]

They will get to it but a Halo Cars don't pay the bills.

They do when it's the Mercedes S-class.

Problem is Cadillac needs credibility, which could be gained with a successful flagship, however, the flagship probably won't sell because of their brand image. They are sort of in a lose-lose.

The S-class pays the bills by being a Taxi, Rental car fleet, and business airport car fleet whore..... the same way the Towncar does.

[smk4565]

They will get to it but a Halo Cars don't pay the bills.

They do when it's the Mercedes S-class.

Problem is Cadillac needs credibility, which could be gained with a successful flagship, however, the flagship probably won't sell because of their brand image. They are sort of in a lose-lose.

The S-class pays the bills by being a Taxi, Rental car fleet, and business airport car fleet whore..... the same way the Towncar does.

It pays the bills, and it is a better status symbol than any car BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus or Cadillac has. All those brands wish they had the S-class, it's image, it's history, and it's revenue.

[Drew Dowdell]

They will get to it but a Halo Cars don't pay the bills.

They do when it's the Mercedes S-class.

Problem is Cadillac needs credibility, which could be gained with a successful flagship, however, the flagship probably won't sell because of their brand image. They are sort of in a lose-lose.

The S-class pays the bills by being a Taxi, Rental car fleet, and business airport car fleet whore..... the same way the Towncar does.

It pays the bills, and it is a better status symbol than any car BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus or Cadillac has. All those brands wish they had the S-class, it's image, it's history, and it's revenue.

as long as I can get mine with a meter and a card swipe.

[Robert Hall]

They will get to it but a Halo Cars don't pay the bills.

They do when it's the Mercedes S-class.

Problem is Cadillac needs credibility, which could be gained with a successful flagship, however, the flagship probably won't sell because of their brand image. They are sort of in a lose-lose.

The S-class pays the bills by being a Taxi, Rental car fleet, and business airport car fleet whore..... the same way the Towncar does.

It pays the bills, and it is a better status symbol than any car BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Lexus or Cadillac has. All those brands wish they had the S-class, it's image, it's history, and it's revenue.

as long as I can get mine with a meter and a card swipe.

Can't do that in the US...I bet 99% of US S-class buyers are unaware of their use in Germany (considering Americans have so few passport holders).

[balthazar]

Not so sure being internationally oblivious is a status symbol. Tends to make one slavering over an s-class as an owner look foolish, IMO.

[smk4565]

You guys want to talk smack on the S-class, but what does Cadillac have? The upcoming 4-cylinder, front drive XTS as their range topper? The S-class is probably the most successful luxury car line of all time. It is why Mercedes has a better image and reputation than its competitors. Cadillac would be wise to study how Mercedes did it, and follow that path of relentless engineering, and make the best car in the world, regardless of cost.

[Robert Hall]

You guys want to talk smack on the S-class, but what does Cadillac have? The upcoming 4-cylinder, front drive XTS as their range topper? The S-class is probably the most successful luxury car line of all time. It is why Mercedes has a better image and reputation than its competitors. Cadillac would be wise to study how Mercedes did it, and follow that path of relentless engineering, and make the best car in the world, regardless of cost.

Exactly..the S-class is a worthy purchase..it's the best overall of its niche--a big, serious solid luxury sedan, w/ proper RWD and V8 (and V12) configurations..quiet, smooth and fast w/ lots of technology, great build quality and materials, clean, understated design..

The XTS will be fine for the DTS intenders and Avis.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

You guys want to talk smack on the S-class, but what does Cadillac have? The upcoming 4-cylinder, front drive XTS as their range topper? The S-class is probably the most successful luxury car line of all time. It is why Mercedes has a better image and reputation than its competitors. Cadillac would be wise to study how Mercedes did it, and follow that path of relentless engineering, and make the best car in the world, regardless of cost.

Cadillac doesn't make a single taxi cab or garbage truck.

[Robert Hall]

You guys want to talk smack on the S-class, but what does Cadillac have? The upcoming 4-cylinder, front drive XTS as their range topper? The S-class is probably the most successful luxury car line of all time. It is why Mercedes has a better image and reputation than its competitors. Cadillac would be wise to study how Mercedes did it, and follow that path of relentless engineering, and make the best car in the world, regardless of cost.

Cadillac doesn't make a single taxi cab or garbage truck.

Apples and oranges...GM has Chevy for the trucks and taxis...M-B is a full line brand, and has a long history of trucks..(though Daimler has many other truck brands incl. Freightliner).

Edited May 3, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[balthazar]

^ don't forget the new 6-lunger s-class... a 4-banger cannot be far behind.

-- -- -- -- --

Exactly right : daimler owns freightliner yet quizzically insists on branding garbage trucks and the sprinter vans as 'mercedees'. That's only a negative for the brand, and they just don't seem to understand that.

I got a 4-page flyer from the local mercedees dealer a few weeks ago. Cover had a clk or something on the full cover, luxury home in the background, sunset, not a bad presentation.

However, the full back page was the mercedees sprinter, with 4 different configurations cut-out and pasted on, and giant monthly dollar cost numbers stamped on it. What kind of schizo message is that??? These 'anti-mercedees' should all immediately be branded as 'freightliners', along with the decades-old G-wagon anachronism. Has ANYONE taken a close look at the body hardware on that thing?? Giant exposed rubber gaskets around the screwed-on turn signal assemblies? Really??

Daimler's mad-impulse volume grab is counterproductive to their self-proclaimed 'best of the best' taglines.

[Potluck]

I don't care what platform Cadillac builds the car on as long as it looks like the Sixteen in the first post.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think the nose of the Sixteen is a bit long, but yeah.

[balthazar]

I was never in love with the Sixteen aft of the A-pillar.

[ZL-1]

Exactly right : daimler owns freightliner yet quizzically insists on branding garbage trucks and the sprinter vans as 'mercedees'. That's only a negative for the brand, and they just don't seem to understand that.

You are 100% wrong. Nobody gives a sh!t about seeing a 3 pointed star on a Sprinter when they go and buy a loaded E-Class or S-Class.

[balthazar]

^ Yet the planet cracks clean thru when the SRX goes to FWD...

[ZL-1]

^ Yet the planet cracks clean thru when the SRX goes to FWD...

I think it is for a different reason: GM has stated so many times that Cadillac is supposed to be going after MB and BMW, that people have expected the brand not to go after the Lexus RX instead of the X3 and X5... IMHO, that's what the complaints are about. Cadillac does deserve the credit of SRX sales voume being very interesting.

[Robert Hall]

^ Yet the planet cracks clean thru when the SRX goes to FWD...

I think it is for a different reason: GM has stated so many times that Cadillac is supposed to be going after MB and BMW, that people have expected the brand not to go after the Lexus RX instead of the X3 and X5... IMHO, that's what the complaints are about. Cadillac does deserve the credit of SRX sales voume being very interesting.

Yes, they aimed for the lowest common denominator (RX) to get sales volume..they got volume, but no luxury credibility when compared w/ the more serious X5, ML, LR2 and RR Sport..

Edited May 4, 2011 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[David]

Interesting to see so many people talk highly of Mercedes when their reliability is terrible. Some of the S Class auto's had nice body lines, but over all for the money spent, I see many in the shop, many more not lasting as long as I see the so called poor quality american cars last.

While I do agree that GM can learn on how to build an image from Mercedes, we need to continue to follow the path of highest quality / reliability for our auto's and when they do build this Halo, 100K car, they need to make sure it is the standard of the world level.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think Mercedes clawed back most of their reliability.... it is still not where they were in the 80's and early 90s, but it's not an '01 M-class anymore either.

[balthazar]

S-class quality (and lack thereof) pushed a friend of mine back into a Tahoe. In fact he's on his 2nd max-loaded Tahoe since.

^ Yet the planet cracks clean thru when the SRX goes to FWD...

I think it is for a different reason: GM has stated so many times that Cadillac is supposed to be going after MB and BMW, that people have expected the brand not to go after the Lexus RX instead of the X3 and X5... IMHO, that's what the complaints are about. Cadillac does deserve the credit of SRX sales voume being very interesting.

I am quite uninterested in Cadillac volume- Cadillac should not be chasing volume- doing so is against one of the cornerstones to the definition of luxury: exclusivity. In many markets- saturation has dampened all exclusivity- like for BMW in NJ.

Unfortunately, Cadillac; as part of GM, is forever perceived as being primarily about chasing volume.

WRT the SRX- lexus stated they were going after mercedees, they surpassed mercedes -depending on who you listen to- in numerous criteria, sales of course, but for many, in luxury, also. So if lexus can build an RX, going after the (mistakenly) so-called LCD and the LS is not damaged by association, and mercedes can build a garbage truck (where is mercedes going with that??) and not damage the S-class by association, seems reasonable & consistent that Cadillac can build a FWD SRX and not fall into a bottomless pit.. Yet the clamor leans the other way... as if RWD was why mercedees and BMW sell so many. It's really quite immaterial, esp in with these junior SUVs.

Unfortunately, Cadillac needs capital to expand where they want to, and since the majority of junior lux SUV drivers have no earthy idea which wheels are driving, kudos to Cadillac for raising good revenue with a competitive product.

Back to the mercedes garbage truck..... and no; I'm not referencing the G-wagon here...

[Drew Dowdell]

The SRX is second only to the RX in sales volume yet at the same time it gives up nothing to the X3 or GLK in transaction price.

The X3 is brand new and the SRX approaching it's 3rd year, yet the X3 would need to increase sales by at least 33% to match the SRX in volume and the SRX is showing no signs of slowing it's own sales growth.

Who is chasing who now?

[ZL-1]

I am quite uninterested in Cadillac volume- Cadillac should not be chasing volume- doing so is against one of the cornerstones to the definition of luxury: exclusivity. In many markets- saturation has dampened all exclusivity- like for BMW in NJ.

Unfortunately, Cadillac; as part of GM, is forever perceived as being primarily about chasing volume.

I think GM and Cadillac themselves created that perception. I agree that profit and image, not volume should be Cadillac's drivers as a brand. I'd rather have seen a new product cycle of the SRX based on Sigma (and then eventually migrated to Alpha).

[David]

i would agree that quality limited Cadillacs that focus on the Standard of the world will eventually trump both BMW and Mercedes who have quality issues for their over priced driving machines.

[dwightlooi]

The SRX is still porky but at least it is now getting the engine it should have from day 1 -- the 3.6 -- instead of the seriously under torqued 3.0 and the disastrously surgy 2.8T, neither of which beats the 3.6 in fuel economy.

[riviera74]

The SRX is still porky but at least it is now getting the engine it should have from day 1 -- the 3.6 -- instead of the seriously under torqued 3.0 and the disastrously surgy 2.8T, neither of which beats the 3.6 in fuel economy.

The 3.6 v6 is where Caddy should have started. The only problem is is that GM wants Cadillac to be fuel efficient..... like the Equinox/Terrain with a 4cyl. Too bad that did not pay out any dividends. Then again, why should Cadillac be fuel efficient?