Genesis News: 2021 Genesis G80 Packs New Styling, Two Turbo Engines

[G. David Felt]

Just now, ocnblu said:

Current Cadillac Escalade taillight is over $1500 for the part only!

Thanks for that update, crazy, just crazy.

[riviera74]

3 hours ago, dfelt said:

EXACTLY  how MB and BMW were in the 70's and 80's before finally catching on with the badge snobs. As such, I expect Genesis to reduce from a almost 30 year barely making it to a much smaller time line before they equal the German brands.

Yes, one needs to watch what they say as the market can change on a dime and boom out goes the Europeans for who knows what next. Maybe EVs? ?

The badge snobs embraced the MB/BMW in the 80s; nobody really cared back in the 70s.  As for the rapid switch to other marques, color me a little skeptical.  The switch to CUVs over sedans took a long while (about 20 years from the original CR-V and RAV4).  CUV sales have essentially replaced sedan sales only 5-7 years ago.  Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura have lost very little market share in the past 15 years.  The rise of Hyundai/KIA is amazing but Genesis is not a brand that is trendy.  Where is the fat and unhealthy luxury marque that needs to be challenged from Genesis?  There is a reason that MB/BMW went from obscure in 1980 to the Kings of the Luxury Hill before 1990 (prestige if not sales); then came the 1990 Lexus LS400 to challenge them.  Cadillac is not the slothful and complacent non-leader of the 1970s and 1980s.  Lincoln is no longer an afterthought (unlike before 2017 or so).  It seems to me that just about every luxury marque (aside from failing Infiniti) is pretty much where they want to be.  There is no real growth in luxury car sales at all.  Mostly it is the craze for luxury CUVs; but also there is some real growth from otherwise common car marques, especially really expensive pickup trucks. 

The same questions remain: where does Genesis find and take market share?  Also, why should anyone buy a Genesis over ANY Other luxury brand?  What is Genesis's unique selling point?

[balthazar]

Who in the segment has a unique selling point??

[smk4565]

Mercedes in the 70s and 80s cost more than Lincoln or Cadillac did.  Granted they also mostly had SL, S-class and E-class so they started with their top cars and worked down.  But high prices didn’t stop them from taking the market because they had the best engineered products.

I don’t know if G80 and even GV80 are up to the task of taking on E-class, 5-series, GLE and X5.  All 4 of those offer a 600 hp option Genesis might stop at 375, and if the chassis was built to only 375 hp, it probably isn’t as good as the one built to handle 600 and get around the Nurburgring.

Genesis really needs a GV70 more than anything.  Genesis is practically sales proof, they sold under 4,000 cars in Q1.  

27 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Who in the segment has a unique selling point??

2 of them have an inline 6 that will win on smoothness all day.  Mercedes and Audi will soon have mild hybrid on ever car.  I doubt Genesis does any hybrids, plug-in or electric for years.

There are going to be Audi drivers racing these Genesis’s saying “E-tron just kicked in, yo!”

[balthazar]

mercedes / BMW weren't competitive until the 1990s.

RE : I-6 "smoothness" ; big deal - that's no selling point.
Especially since more & more; the dead I-6 is going to the I-4.

The problem is entrenched now - once upon a time a luxury car meant all the bells & whistles, now you can get the majority of amenities on everything down to the bottom of the barrel. The range has decreased significantly. And then there's the truck segment horning DEEP into the luxury brand territory- the same amenities, some new ones, and capabilities the cars can't even approach.

[ocnblu]

It could be construed that luxury pickups are the new aspirational vehicle.  I read somewhere that luxury cars across all brands were being traded in on Denali, High Country, King Ranch and Limited LD and HD pickups at a very noticeable clip.

[smk4565]

Pickup trucks don’t have performance and won’t until the Cybertruck arrives.  Also a King Ranch or High Country truck is still a far cry from an Audi A6 in terms of interior and technology let alone the higher luxury vehicles.

I mean the Kia Telluride has a better interior than a Denali pickup, can’t get Super Cruise in a Silverado or Sierra either and Audi A8 has a system more advanced than Super Cruise.  Trucks are expensive (and do well on resale) but that doesn’t make them luxury.

[oldshurst442]

19 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Pickup trucks don’t have performance and won’t until the Cybertruck arrives

Are you buzzing again?

JUST because there isnt a Silverado SS 454 or Ford F-150  Lightning like there was 20 years ago...doesnt mean these machines do not have performance...

A Silverado has a a 6.2 liter 420 HP and 460 horsepower V8 under the hood. 

Also...the Ford Raptor IS a performance machine...

And you saw what I wrote?  I said 20 years ago...

PERFORMANCE muscle trucks EXISTED  while Elon Musk was still a baby...

 

 

Quote

 

Elon Reeve Musk FRS is an engineer, industrial designer, philanthropist, and technology entrepreneur. He is a citizen of South Africa, the United States, and Canada. Wikipedia

 

Born: June 28, 1971 (age 48 years), Pretoria, South Africa

Net worth: 29.5 billion USD (2020)

Partner: Grimes (2018–)

Spouse: Talulah Riley (m. 2013–2016), Talulah Riley (m. 2010–2012), Justine Musk (m. 2000–2008)

Children: Nevada Alexander Musk, Damian Musk, Griffin Musk, Kai Musk, Saxon Musk, Xavier Musk

Education: University of Pennsylvania (1997), MORE

 

 

 

 

1978  (And yes...it was performance for the time...) And there are a slew of other noteworthy performance trucks from then until now...

 

The Cybertruck is still not in production but Ford will gladly sell you a performance pick-up  right NOW

 

And there is another that Ford could sell you RIGHT NOW

 

The rest of your post is just word pollution...

Edited April 4, 2020 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

A 420 hp Sierra or Silverado does 0-60 in 5.7 seconds vs like 4.7 for a G80.  Also trucks have sloppy handling.  Let me know when the Silverado beats a CT5-V around a race track.  

[oldshurst442]

19 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

A 420 hp Sierra or Silverado does 0-60 in 5.7 seconds vs like 4.7 for a G80.  Also trucks have sloppy handling.  Let me know when the Silverado beats a CT5-V around a race track.  

word pollution.

But...Ill humour you.

This is what pick-up trucks do...what they are meant to do...with 420 HP and 460 ft/lbs are meant to do....there are base V6 engines in these...and Ford has preferred to go 400 HP with turbo V6...but...

Let me know when a G80 or a Caddy CT5V can do this

 

or this

 Or even this...

 

 

0-60 and Nurburgring times are less relevant in times like these...me thinks...

Screw your head on straight dude. Discuss stuff more like an adult and less like a teenager, please. 

 

[oldshurst442]

And I noticed you IGNORED 0-60 times of the Raptor and the Shelby.

Raptor is a tick above 5 seconds...

BUT...

Let me know when a G80 could do this (for the SECOND time) 

 

 

Oh...the Raptor could just flat out GO THROUGH the NURBURGRING  by actually GOING THROUGH the twists and turns... 

Edited April 4, 2020 by oldshurst442

[ocnblu]

The modern pickup truck is a Swiss Army Knife in all the best ways.

[oldshurst442]

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes in the 70s and 80s cost more than Lincoln or Cadillac did.

FALSE.

Mercedes has a model or two in the 1980s that was above Cadillac in the 1980s...but in the 1970s...NADA.

Cadillac was starting to fall from grace...sure...but even Oldsmobile was on a higher level than Mercedes was. 

Mercedes threw some high priced stuff our way in the 1970s, and 'twas mostly rich Stepford wives that bought them. Seemingly California  Stepford wives.  Im thinking it was a way for rich pricks to shut them up while they were cheating on them with younger versions of their trophy wives...  I hardly think that qualifies as glamorous...

Keep mind that those rich pricks all drove Cadillacs and Lincolns...

Then the yuppies took over in the 1980s and wanted to show those old rich pricks who is in control of Wallstreet and THAT is how Bimmers and Mercedes cars got a foothold on the luxury side of things in the US...  

Rest assured though, those younger chicks that cheated with those old rich pricks in the 1970s...all married guys that drove Lexuses in the 1980s and 1990s.

But dont forget...those yuppies that drove those Bimmers and Mercedes cars in the 1980s and 1990s...all drive Teslas now...

 

[balthazar]

32 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

FALSE. Mercedes has a model or two in the 1980s that was above Cadillac in the 1980s...but in the 1970s...NADA.

Are you considering the interiors at ALL in that statement?
Mercedes had terrible interiors thru the '80s, awful, terrible interiors. S-class, SL, you name it. Been in them, looked them over- they're a joke.

[oldshurst442]

3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Are you considering the interiors at ALL in that statement?
Mercedes had terrible interiors thru the '80s, awful, terrible interiors. S-class, SL, you name it. Been in them, looked them over- they're a joke.

Just price. 

I dont have the patience or strength to discuss with him that aspect.

Ive done so, like you, in the past, discuss this with him...

Im kinda burnt out with this ad nauseam discussion with him.     That is why I had a trolly response to him in that post. 

Edited April 4, 2020 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

word pollution.

But...Ill humour you.

This is what pick-up trucks do...what they are meant to do...with 420 HP and 460 ft/lbs are meant to do....there are base V6 engines in these...and Ford has preferred to go 400 HP with turbo V6...but...

Let me know when a G80 or a Caddy CT5V can do this

 

or this

 Or even this...

 

 

0-60 and Nurburgring times are less relevant in times like these...me thinks...

Screw your head on straight dude. Discuss stuff more like an adult and less like a teenager, please. 

 

Right, they build for work and utility, not luxury.  

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

FALSE.

Mercedes has a model or two in the 1980s that was above Cadillac in the 1980s...but in the 1970s...NADA.

Cadillac was starting to fall from grace...sure...but even Oldsmobile was on a higher level than Mercedes was. 

Mercedes threw some high priced stuff our way in the 1970s, and 'twas mostly rich Stepford wives that bought them. Seemingly California  Stepford wives.  Im thinking it was a way for rich pricks to shut them up while they were cheating on them with younger versions of their trophy wives...  I hardly think that qualifies as glamorous...

Keep mind that those rich pricks all drove Cadillacs and Lincolns...

Then the yuppies took over in the 1980s and wanted to show those old rich pricks who is in control of Wallstreet and THAT is how Bimmers and Mercedes cars got a foothold on the luxury side of things in the US...  

Rest assured though, those younger chicks that cheated with those old rich pricks in the 1970s...all married guys that drove Lexuses in the 1980s and 1990s.

But dont forget...those yuppies that drove those Bimmers and Mercedes cars in the 1980s and 1990s...all drive Teslas now...

 

Some original MSRP's from 1977

Rolls-Royce Silver Spur $42,000

Mercedes 450SEL 6.9  $39,377

Mercedes 450SEL $25,241

Mercedes SL  $22,601

Mercedes 280E $17,114

Mercedes 240D $11,920 (the cheapest Mercedes sold, a 4 cylinder diesel E-class)

Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham $11,546

Lincoln Town Car  $9,636.

They broke in with higher prices and still won, plus Karl Benz invented the car 70 years before they sold a car in the USA, where as Genesis is a total upstart from a car company that itself isn't all that old.

Edited April 4, 2020 by smk4565

[oldshurst442]

54 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Right, they build for work and utility, not luxury.  

Right...

Your argument flip flops between Silverado...a Chevrolet and then switch to Denali...

Is this luxury? 

 

Starts at 50 000 or so...

So does a Denali.  

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I mean the Kia Telluride has a better interior than a Denali pickup, can’t get Super Cruise in a Silverado or Sierra either and Audi A8 has a system more advanced than Super Cruise.  Trucks are expensive (and do well on resale) but that doesn’t make them luxury.

Like I said you flip flop...

And then you try to denounce a Denali...

But a 54 000 dollar E Class interior is an equal to the Denali's...

And THAT version gets no supercruise or any other luxury tech either...plus a V6. The Denali is a 420 or so horsepower V8...   You know...YOUR kind of definition of luxury...V8...

Oh...and you mentioned work and utility...

 

31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes 450SEL 6.9  $39,377

Mercedes 450SEL $25,241

Mercedes SL  $22,601

Mercedes 280E $17,114

Mercedes 240D $11,920 (the cheapest Mercedes sold, a 4 cylinder diesel E-class)

And all these NEVER sold in numbers to be bragged out about...

Like I said...

J.R.  types from the soap opera Dallas all had Stepford wives and these are the cars they bought for them to silence them because they were cheating on them...

You know...Lexus sold a half-a-million dollar car not too long ago...

There are STILL unsold examples of it...

Your little word pollution discussion...of which I got a headache from...means very little...

 

Edited April 4, 2020 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

Benz invented the car

Worth repeating :

[smk4565]

GMC, even the Denali isn't a luxury brand, Cadillac is nicer than anything GMC has and Cadillac themselves are tier 2 brand.  No one thinks a GMC truck is nicer than an Escalade, and half of Audi's lineup is more luxurious than an Escalade is.  

The Genesis G80 is nicer than any GMC Denali product on the interior and the G80 is going to struggle to sell.  GV80 might do okay to the less discerning crossover buyer.  GV80 is undercutting the XT6 and Aviator in price, it is $4k more than an Acura MDX, so it is right in the meat of the segment there, it could do fairly well if it cleans up on the dated Acura and Infiniti models and the lackluster XT6.

[balthazar]

Median household income of a luxury car buyer in the U.S. is $99K.
Average household income of a Denali buyer is $153K. It's a bona fide luxury product, no question.
The bread & butter of audi sales are cheap cars - the truely nice ones no one bothers with.
 

[riviera74]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Median household income of a luxury car buyer in the U.S. is $99K.
Average household income of a Denali buyer is $153K. It's a bona fide luxury product, no question.
The bread & butter of audi sales are cheap cars - the truely nice ones no one bothers with.
 

The Audi Q series, especially the Q5 and the Q3, are keeping Audi afloat.  I have not seen too many Audi CARS on the road in several years.  Maybe the occasional A8 here and there.

Yes the Denali customer is a luxury customer.  That is great for GMC.  Other than the pickup trucks, why can't GM move them up to an Escalade?

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Median household income of a luxury car buyer in the U.S. is $99K.
Average household income of a Denali buyer is $153K. It's a bona fide luxury product, no question.
The bread & butter of audi sales are cheap cars - the truely nice ones no one bothers with.
 

Cost doesn't equal luxury.  A Freightliner Cascadia is $150k base model, doesn't make it luxury.  Sierra's with the 6.2 upgrade or the diesel and Allison transmission or the 2500/3500 level are expensive because of towing/hauling capability.  

Look at a Terrain or Acadia, interior, powertrain, ride/handling, etc, compare that to an Acura or Infiniti even and GMC loses, compare to an Audi or Mercedes and it isn't even a discussion.  Heck the Terrain and Acadia aren't even nearly as luxurious as the Cadillacs that share mechanical bits with them.  

And that $153k is for a Sierra Denali, what about a Terrain Denali, what is the household income of that buyer?    Good for GMC for attracting higher income buyers, I would say why don't they raise the price higher?  A GMC Sierra has a base price of $29,600.  Why not just make it start at $49,600, and charge $100k for the Denali if this buyer pool is so wealthy?  And it comes down to even if the avg Denali household income was $10 million a year, they aren't going to spend $100k on anything that says GMC on it.  

[balthazar]

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Cost doesn't equal luxury.

Why not just make it start at $49,600, and charge $100k for the Denali...?

• By the same token; luxury doesn’t equal cost.

• Why doesn’t daimler jack the price of the s-class to the lowest MSRP of a rolls royce and go up to $750K??

Nvrmnd; alrdy trd tht.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

The Audi Q series, especially the Q5 and the Q3, are keeping Audi afloat.  I have not seen too many Audi CARS on the road in several years.  Maybe the occasional A8 here and there.

Yes the Denali customer is a luxury customer.  That is great for GMC.  Other than the pickup trucks, why can't GM move them up to an Escalade?

China keeps Audi afloat.  Audi sells about as many cars in China as Chevy sells Silverados in the USA.

GMC Sierra Denali is probably the nice truck out there, the new Ram has a nice high trim, and the F150 I'd say lags behind both.  So buyers don't really have another choice if they NEED a pickup and want the nice one.  This is where Toyota totally misses in the full size truck game.  The Tundra is dated as can be, has a V8 from 13 years ago that has seen no updates, the truck is a joke.  I know an all new Tundra is coming, but there should be an all new Tundra ever 6-7 years.  They should sell easily double the number of Tundras that they do now.  They can sell 500,000 RAV4's but they can't sell 100k Tundras a year?

And there should be a Lexus Truck that is a hybrid turbo V6, 450ish hp, that has all he off road capability of the Land Cruiser (which would make it the most capable truck) all the luxury and tech of an LS or LC plus Lexus-level reliability.  This should be such a no-brainer.  Toyota has nearly endless cash, they could outspend Ford's F150 program any day of the week if they wanted to, and they have one of the premier luxury brands and premier reliability and resale value brands in the stable.   They could easily sell a Lexus pickup starting at $75-80k, with options up to $100k.  I think that would outsell the LS500 at the same price point and most of the tooling is already paid from the Tundra that they already have that is a volume product.

[surreal1272]

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Pickup trucks don’t have performance and won’t until the Cybertruck arrives.  Also a King Ranch or High Country truck is still a far cry from an Audi A6 in terms of interior and technology let alone the higher luxury vehicles.

I mean the Kia Telluride has a better interior than a Denali pickup, can’t get Super Cruise in a Silverado or Sierra either and Audi A8 has a system more advanced than Super Cruise.  Trucks are expensive (and do well on resale) but that doesn’t make them luxury.

Yes because hi-po pickups have done so well here in the past. Oh wait. They haven’t. They are niche and if that is what the fugly Cybertruck is hanging it’s hat on, then Tesla nor you understand the pick up market here. 
 

(Looks at the hauling and towing capability of an A8 and wonders what in the F are you babbling about.)
 

Edited April 4, 2020 by surreal1272

[balthazar]

Tundra is a TRD that cannot be polished.

[riviera74]

52 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Tundra is a TRD that cannot be polished.

Right.  Who in their right mind would actually buy a Tundra?  Or any Toyota truck for that matter?

[balthazar]

Well, it's not the worst pick up you can buy; there's always nissan (if you can find one).

[riviera74]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

China keeps Audi afloat.  Audi sells about as many cars in China as Chevy sells Silverados in the USA.

GMC Sierra Denali is probably the nice truck out there, the new Ram has a nice high trim, and the F150 I'd say lags behind both.  So buyers don't really have another choice if they NEED a pickup and want the nice one.  This is where Toyota totally misses in the full size truck game.  The Tundra is dated as can be, has a V8 from 13 years ago that has seen no updates, the truck is a joke.  I know an all new Tundra is coming, but there should be an all new Tundra ever 6-7 years.  They should sell easily double the number of Tundras that they do now.  They can sell 500,000 RAV4's but they can't sell 100k Tundras a year?

And there should be a Lexus Truck that is a hybrid turbo V6, 450ish hp, that has all he off road capability of the Land Cruiser (which would make it the most capable truck) all the luxury and tech of an LS or LC plus Lexus-level reliability.  This should be such a no-brainer.  Toyota has nearly endless cash, they could outspend Ford's F150 program any day of the week if they wanted to, and they have one of the premier luxury brands and premier reliability and resale value brands in the stable.   They could easily sell a Lexus pickup starting at $75-80k, with options up to $100k.  I think that would outsell the LS500 at the same price point and most of the tooling is already paid from the Tundra that they already have that is a volume product.

When the RAV4 came out originally, Detroit was selling BOF SUVs.  Only the RAV4 and Honda CR-V were selling crossovers 25 years ago.  Then came the original Lexus RX300, arguably the first luxury crossover.  Swapping Corolla/Camry sales for the RAV4 has been nothing but Toyota minting money for the better part of this past decade.  Yes the Tundra is dated because it does not sell and neither does the Nissan Titan for good reason: truck buyers are quite loyal to Detroit pickups.  Since Toyota has a very hard time outselling the Chevy Silverado in any month over the past 20 years, they should simply discontinue the Tundra (and drop any pretense of building a Lexus pickup truck).  If anything, Toyota should watch out for Hyundai/KIA AND make Lexus even more successful than it already is rather than pursue the fool's errand of competing in the BOF truck wars that Toyota simply cannot win.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Yes because hi-po pickups have done so well here in the past. Oh wait. They haven’t. They are niche and if that is what the fugly Cybertruck is hanging it’s hat on, then Tesla nor you understand the pick up market here. 
 

Which is why pickups aren't a luxury vehicle, the high power versions were short lived and done, the 2 Lincoln attempts and 1 Cadillac attempt didn't work.  People aren't going to pay above a certain level for a truck like they will for an SUV or car.

Tesla has fans that will support anything they build.  And the Cybertruck won't sell just because it is fast, but it will sell by having the front trunk, that ramp in the tailgate, crazy styling, etc.  It will do stuff no other truck can do because of the electric drivetrain and how that is packaged.

49 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Right.  Who in their right mind would actually buy a Tundra?  Or any Toyota truck for that matter?

The Tacoma is the best selling mid-size truck and the Land Cruiser proves they can build an off roader.  Problem is the Tundra is old as dirt, and not competitive.  And look at the rest of what Toyota does:

Corolla- near top of its segment

Camry- benchmark in its segment

RAV4- benchmark in its segment

Lexus RX- most popular in its segment and benchmark front drive crossover.

Avalon/Lexus ES- pretty much the last man standing in their segment

Prius, the benchmark hybrid until the RAV4 became the #1 selling hybrid in America

Wherever Toyota puts effort they are successful.  But they put zero effort in the Tundra.

[smk4565]

36 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

When the RAV4 came out originally, Detroit was selling BOF SUVs.  Only the RAV4 and Honda CR-V were selling crossovers 25 years ago.  Then came the original Lexus RX300, arguably the first luxury crossover.  Swapping Corolla/Camry sales for the RAV4 has been nothing but Toyota minting money for the better part of this past decade.  Yes the Tundra is dated because it does not sell and neither does the Nissan Titan for good reason: truck buyers are quite loyal to Detroit pickups.  Since Toyota has a very hard time outselling the Chevy Silverado in any month over the past 20 years, they should simply discontinue the Tundra (and drop any pretense of building a Lexus pickup truck).  If anything, Toyota should watch out for Hyundai/KIA AND make Lexus even more successful than it already is rather than pursue the fool's errand of competing in the BOF truck wars that Toyota simply cannot win.

See, I don't think truck buyers will be that loyal to Detroit if a better option came along.  The Tundra isn't good and it like a 2007 time capsule being sold in modern times.  But Toyota put Detroit our of business in sedans (for the most part) and minivans save for the Pacifica, Toyota outsells the Ranger and Colorado.  The RAV4 and Highlander took a big chunk of Detroit's SUV market.  So all those buyers were not loyal to the Detroit 3, I don't think truck buyers are all that different.  Yes some will only buy Ford or only buy Chevy no matter what, but if Toyota came out swinging with their massive cash supply, they could pump $2 billion into an all new Tundra that mops the floor with the competition.  I don't think they'd outsell Chevy, but I bet they could sell 250,000 Tundras and steal 50,000 sales from each of the Detroit 3. 

[balthazar]

28 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Which is why pickups aren't a luxury vehicle...

No luxury here:
 

[oldshurst442]

16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

1 Cadillac attempt didn't work

It did work.

Chevy canceled the Avalanche. Not Cadillac.

Chevy deemed the Avalanche too costly to produce...at a time when GM was going bankrupt.   Let me remind you that the Avalanche and the Cadillac EXT was an SUV though...so your point is null and void...

The Blackwood was just a poor attempt...for a Lincoln.

But...Ford F150 higher trimmed packages that rival Mercedes E Class price tags are selling like hot cakes ever since the Blackwood was introduced and especially when it went away...and those F150s were soooooo much better at doing luxury than the Blackwood itself...

So...like usual...you are going round and round in a circle saying nothing and accomplishing just as much. 

PS:  Dodge Ram high priced and high trimmed pick-up trucks are also a hot commodity.   I bet you Dodge sells more 50 000-70 000 dollar trucks than Mercedes Benz does SUVs/CUVs and sedans COMBINED

It dont matter if you dont think pick-up trucks are not luxury vehicles.

But what does it say about your Mercedes, a so called luxury brand...gets out sold by work oriented trucks with price tags that rival so called luxury vehicles by said luxury brand?

Lowly Fords, Dodges and GMCs outsell Mercedes Benz's so called luxury vehicles...

Your argument is soooooo outta whack...you yourself do not know what to say next...

1. Price is your argument... realizes that pick-up trucks are expensive as hell

2. Proceeds to say that price is not a factor. Performance is.

3. Realizes that pick-up trucks are quite capable in some areas as sporty cars but do other performance things that sports cars could never and will be able to do!!!

4. Proceeds to say trucks are utilitarian.

5. Proved that Mercedes Benz so called luxury car even in 2019 is utilitarian...

6. Proceeds to try to sway the bar that luxury trucks have failed....yet...does not realize that his first attempt to dismiss was that pick-up trucks are sold with luxury price tags...but not luxury...yet folk with money buy plebeian branded pickup trucks with Mercedes Benz price tags...realizes that that is not a good thing for Mercedes luxury perception...

7.  Round and Round we go on the Merry Go Round...

 What is luxury?

This?

 

Or this?

 

 

 

[smk4565]

If Ram sells more $50-70k trucks than Mercedes, which I still doubt since a very low percentage are Big Horn, then I guess Ram is beating Cadillac at the luxury game too.  And as I have said earlier Mercedes sells more $100k+ vehicles than any other car brand in the world.  That is the difference, yes Mercedes sells $40k vehicles but Ram sells $22,000 Promaster Citys, GMC sells $26,000 Terrains, Chevy sells $13k Sparks next to $75k Corvettes, it doesn't matter.  

And truck incentives are the highest in the industry, JD Power puts the avg light duty pick up with a $51,700 sticker but a $42,036 avg transaction price.  

The Ram and Sierra start at $29k, and those Denali and Big Horns still are stuck with the same switchgear that is in those cheaper trucks.  Not luxury vehicles regardless of what they cost. 

And if these truck interiors were so great, why haven't Chevy, Ford and Ram put those interiors into their sedan and SUV lines and saved them from being taken over by Toyota and Honda?

[oldshurst442]

Guess at what price the GLA starts at?

Its HIGHER than the base pick-up trucks.  

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Not luxury vehicles regardless of what they cost. 

But...you just shot yourself in the foot...

E Class is 54 000...Longhorn is 45 000...

Longhorn Laramie is nicer inside than a base E Class...

Therefore any vehicle from Mercedes  BELOW an S Class  is NOT Luxury...

And THAT is according to YOUR argument and point of view. 

52 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

1. Price is your argument... realizes that pick-up trucks are expensive as hell

2. Proceeds to say that price is not a factor. Performance is.

3. Realizes that pick-up trucks are quite capable in some areas as sporty cars but do other performance things that sports cars could never and will be able to do!!!

4. Proceeds to say trucks are utilitarian.

5. Proved that Mercedes Benz so called luxury car even in 2019 is utilitarian...

6. Proceeds to try to sway the bar that luxury trucks have failed....yet...does not realize that his first attempt to dismiss was that pick-up trucks are sold with luxury price tags...but not luxury...yet folk with money buy plebeian branded pickup trucks with Mercedes Benz price tags...realizes that that is not a good thing for Mercedes luxury perception...

7.  Round and Round we go on the Merry Go Round...

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by oldshurst442

[riviera74]

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If Ram sells more $50-70k trucks than Mercedes, which I still doubt since a very low percentage are Big Horn, then I guess Ram is beating Cadillac at the luxury game too.  And as I have said earlier Mercedes sells more $100k+ vehicles than any other car brand in the world.  That is the difference, yes Mercedes sells $40k vehicles but Ram sells $22,000 Promaster Citys, GMC sells $26,000 Terrains, Chevy sells $13k Sparks next to $75k Corvettes, it doesn't matter.  

And truck incentives are the highest in the industry, JD Power puts the avg light duty pick up with a $51,700 sticker but a $42,036 avg transaction price.  

The Ram and Sierra start at $29k, and those Denali and Big Horns still are stuck with the same switchgear that is in those cheaper trucks.  Not luxury vehicles regardless of what they cost. 

And if these truck interiors were so great, why haven't Chevy, Ford and Ram put those interiors into their sedan and SUV lines and saved them from being taken over by Toyota and Honda?

Cadillac has not sold anything resembling a pickup truck since GM cancelled the Avalanche/Escalade EXT several years ago.  GMC is doing quite well in selling Sierra Denalis at the moment; same with top of the line Silverados.  The real question is what percentage of each pickup truck sales are high-end vs. work trucks vs. middle of the road.  As for why those interiors are not in sedans and SUVs, there is a reason for that too.  A LOT of Detroit SUVs get similar interiors to the pickup trucks based on trim level: Denali SUVs and pickups get virtually identical interiors.  Same with FORD.  The sedan issue is simple: the sales of Detroit sedans has fallen off so quickly that FORD and GM and FCA are largely out of the sedan business entirely.  Good decision? IDK, but understandable given that sales are now with SUVs and crossovers and trucks these days.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

If Ram sells more $50-70k trucks than Mercedes, which I still doubt since a very low percentage are Big Horn, then I guess Ram is beating Cadillac at the luxury game too.  And as I have said earlier Mercedes sells more $100k+ vehicles than any other car brand in the world.  That is the difference, yes Mercedes sells $40k vehicles but Ram sells $22,000 Promaster Citys, GMC sells $26,000 Terrains, Chevy sells $13k Sparks next to $75k Corvettes, it doesn't matter.  

And truck incentives are the highest in the industry, JD Power puts the avg light duty pick up with a $51,700 sticker but a $42,036 avg transaction price.  

The Ram and Sierra start at $29k, and those Denali and Big Horns still are stuck with the same switchgear that is in those cheaper trucks.  Not luxury vehicles regardless of what they cost. 

And if these truck interiors were so great, why haven't Chevy, Ford and Ram put those interiors into their sedan and SUV lines and saved them from being taken over by Toyota and Honda?

That’s rich coming from someone who constantly touts AMG version of every Benz yet they also only count for a small percentage of total sales. Different here is that the D3 take on high trim trucks is a much higher percentage than Benz with AMG AND top level trims. 
 

You know what? F this. How about we just stick to the G80?

Edited April 5, 2020 by surreal1272

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

The real question is what percentage of each pickup truck sales are high-end vs. work trucks vs. middle of the road.

Actually...same applies to Mercedes.

How many low level GLAs and CLAs and crappy 4 cylinder C Classes  does Mercedes roll out and favorable priced lease queen E Classes and  GLCs  vis a vis the higher priced ones?

I bet you...Dodge and Ford and GMC and Chevy sell MORE 50 000 dollar price tagged trucks than Mercedes does in that same 50 000 dollar range.

Mercedes has sold 320 000-380 000 units in the US the last 5 years.

The GLC and the C Class are the top cars that sell in the US.

60 000 units per year for the C Class and 70 000 for the GLC

That totals 130 000 units.  About half.

45 000 E classes, 20 000 GLAs, 15 000 CLA.  That is another 70 000 units 

200 000 units so far.

Add another 50 000 GLEs and  another 15 000 S Classes and we are at 265 000. 

The rest comprises of 40 000 vans, 7 000 G Class SUVs, 4 000 GTs,  1 500 SLs, 1 500  SLCs and we are at the 315 000 units level

https://www.daimler.com/investors/reports-news/financial-news/20200104-mbusa-sales-dec.html

Numbers are good enough...

60 000 C Classes...

starts at 42 000

70 000 GLCs

starts at 52 000

I doubt that the GLC goes above 60 000 dollars. Lease queen. 

I doubt the C Class goes above 45 000 dollars. Lease queen also.

That makes an avg trans price of 52 000... for 130 00 units

GLE starts at 55 000

E Class starts at 54 000

avg trans price Id say 60 000 dollars. for another 100 000 cars.  

We bump up that avg trans price  $55 000 for 230 000 units.

CLA and GLA Id say avg trans prices at 45 000.  It wont move the needle as that only makes up for 35 000 units.

Avg trans prices for M-B in the US according to MY logic is 55 000 for a measly 260 000 - 280 000 units...

https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/average-new-vehicle-transaction-prices-up-3-5-year-over-year-in-january/

That link says that M-B ATP is at 58 000-59 000 dollars.  Im gonna say that my analysis is accurate because in my analysis I am not including 100 000 dollar S Class sales...even at only 15 000 units...

 

Ford sells 900 000 F150s and its variants

Dodge sells close too 700 000 Rams and its variants. Maybe more now...

GM sells 600 000 Chevy Silverados and another 250 000 Sierras.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/10/the-average-pickup-truck-price-is-closing-in-on-50000/

In 2018...GM said that the  ATP on  its trucks in 2018 is closing in on 50 000 dollars...

The Silverado STARTS at 29 000...

GM sells 850 000 trucks...

Without me doing any more math...Im dizzy.... Im going to safely say that yes...Ford, GM, Dodge sell MORE 50 000 dollar trucks than Mercedes does 50 000 dollar vehicles...as I think GM, Ford and Dodge OBLITERATES the 280 000 unit mark with expensive as phoque   Longhorns, King Ranches and Silverado HD/Denalis...  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

It does not bode well for Mercedes' luxury plans when plebeian branded,  work oriented  utilitarian pick-up trucks rival transaction prices and sales figures with those of Mercedes so-called luxury vehicles...

Maybe because...

Anything below the S Class in the Mercedes line-up is not luxury?

Or...

Is it that Lonhorn Laramies, King Ranches and Denalis ARE luxury?

Tough pill to swallow.  Which reality do you wanna follow?  Any which way you cut it...its no bueno for Mercedes Benz.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by oldshurst442

[Robert Hall]

Non sequitor, your comparisons hold no water.  Apples and oranges. That there are pickups that have similar prices to MB luxury models means nothing, there are Peterbilt, Kenworth, etc trucks that are more expensive.  Or RVs.  Or Corvettes.   Many vehicles are in the same price bracket that aren’t competitors.  
 

I thought this was a Genesis thread.   Seems to have really gone off the rails. 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Robert Hall

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

That’s rich coming from someone who constantly touts AMG version of every Benz yet they also only count for a small percentage of total sales. Different here is that the D3 take on high trim trucks is a much higher percentage than Benz with AMG AND top level trims. 
 

You know what? F this. How about we just stick to the G80?

I haven't seen where they have split out the percentage and take rate.  But I still stick to there is a price limit where a pick up truck won't sell and there are $200,000 sedans, coupes and SUVs, heck there are $400,000 options in those 3 body styles, there is not even a $100k pickup.  The Detroit 3 would charge that kind of money if they could get it.  

G80 as I said looks nice, but sedans are slow sellers and G80 will need crazy aggressive pricing to have any chance.  Where the effort needs put is GV60 and GV70 because small and compact SUVs are what sell.  And one day they'll try a GV90 but again, who is going to pay $90k for a Genesis SUV?  Not going to happen.

[oldshurst442]

Non sequitur?

Why?

Because trucks are now considered to be luxury vehicles rather than status quo sedans?

News Flash: Its been an SUV and Truck world ever since OJ was running from the cops at 5 mph waaaay back when Eurodance was just hitting the dance clubs in NYC and Montreal. 

Because plebeian brands are hitting luxury price tags? Well... luxury brands are hitting plebeian  price tags...it goes both ways you know...

It may be a Bizarro world in 2020...but it dont change the fact that pickup trucks from mainstream brands are in reality luxury vehicles and luxury brands are producing and selling  mainstream level vehicles.  

Please dont be hypocritical and say a GLC or worse...a G wagon... is a luxury truck JUST because it wears a luxury brand logo on the hood, and dismiss a GMC Sierra Denali or Ford Kings Ranch truck JUST because it dawns a utilitarian and mainstream badge...

Because if you say a GLC is luxury and deny a Denali...your thought process is non-sequitur. Your logic does not follow...

And the fact that a 2019 E Class is a mainstream taxi car in other parts of the world does you no  favours with this non-sequitur rebuttal...

And yes...18 wheelers are expensive...but quite luxurious too...if equipped that way. Plus...these modern 18 wheelers got technology that rivals the best of the automotive world.  Everything that defines...luxury. 

Price to price

interior to interior

engine choice to engine choice

fit and finish to fit and finish

tech to tech

Base E Class/base GLC or top of the line GLA versus high priced Detroit pickup trucks...very much indeed  is apples to apples and very much sequitur as it follows a very logical path.  One that you or SMK dont wanna admit to...but yeah...

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

28 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Non sequitor, your comparisons hold no water.  Apples and oranges. That there are pickups that have similar prices to MB luxury models means nothing, there are Peterbilt, Kenworth, etc trucks that are more expensive.  Or RVs.  Or Corvettes.   Many vehicles are in the same price bracket that aren’t competitors.  
 

I thought this was a Genesis thread.   Seems to have really gone off the rails. 

Exactly, they are pointless comparisons because American luxury brands have gotten to be so sad, the American car fans are left with Ram and Sierra pickups as the last best option. 

Here is 2019 Revenue:

Volkswagen $282.9 billion on 10.34 million units

Toyota $272 billion on 9.70 million units

Daimler $186.6 billion on 3.34 million units

Ford $156 billion on 4.90 million units

Honda $141.1 billion on 4.83 million units

Hyundai-Kia $137.8 billion on 7.2 million units

Renault-Nissan $129.9 billion on 9.22 million units

GM $110.9 billion on 7.74 million units

FCA $108 billion 4.36 million units

 

Daimler is 3rd in revenue and has the lowest volume of the bunch.  I think they are doing fine.  

 

[smk4565]

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Exactly, they are pointless comparisons because American luxury brands have gotten to be so sad, the American car fans are left with Ram and Sierra pickups as the last best option. 

Here is 2019 Revenue:

Volkswagen $282.9 billion on 10.34 million units

Toyota $272 billion on 9.70 million units

Daimler $186.6 billion on 3.34 million units

Ford $156 billion on 4.90 million units

Honda $141.1 billion on 4.83 million units

Hyundai-Kia $137.8 billion on 7.2 million units

Renault-Nissan $129.9 billion on 9.22 million units

GM $110.9 billion on 7.74 million units

FCA $108 billion 4.36 million units

 

Daimler is 3rd in revenue and has the lowest volume of the bunch.  I think they are doing fine.  

What will be interesting is how well G80 does in Asia. Seeing those numbers, Hyundai-Kia is major player in the global market. G80 may do well for them in Asia even if it is a dud here.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by smk4565

[Robert Hall]

9 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Non sequitur?

Why?

Because trucks are now considered to be luxury vehicles rather than status quo sedans?

 

You miss a fundamental point---price tag doesn't equate to luxury.  There are plenty of expensive vehicles that aren't luxury vehicles. 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Robert Hall

[oldshurst442]

38 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

You miss a fundamental point---price tag doesn't equate to luxury.  There are plenty of expensive vehicles that aren't luxury vehicles. 

Yup...

And you missed the point that Mercedes vehicles that have the SAME EXACT price tags as those high fallutin' pickup trucks..dont equate to luxury vehicles either...

And THAT is the point...

Example

That E Class...is not a luxury vehicle...

Therefore...

Not a luxury vehicle

 

But wait...there is more 

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

But I still stick to there is a price limit where a pick up truck won't sell and there are $200,000 sedans, coupes and SUVs, heck there are $400,000 options in those 3 body styles, there is not even a $100k pickup.

 You both have to decide what argument you want to stick to...

Define what is luxury first...and then come and discuss it with me.

You will find that whatever definition you choose, it does not bode well for Mercedes luxury perception vis-a-vis high priced pickup trucks and Mercedes Benz vehicles below the S Class... 

 

I repeat...

Price to price

interior to interior

engine choice to engine choice

fit and finish to fit and finish

tech to tech

Mercedes base GLC and base E Class are no more luxury than top trimmed pickup trucks.

Or...

If you want to play the hypocrite game.

Mercedes base GLC and E Class are luxury...but so are the top trimmed pickup trucks. 

You cant have it both ways.  

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

 I say base E Class and base GLC...but you yourself dont equate expensive price tags to luxury so an AMG E Class is also not luxury BECAUSE the E Class is utilitarian in some markets outside the US...just like how pickup trucks ARE utilitarian in the US market. In other parts of the world thoughl ike  in Russia and in Dubai...if a Russian oligarch or an oil sheik baron decide to export a Kings Ranch F150...its luxury...)  (you could try to counter all you want...the sad reality is that Mercedes went down market in the US and THAT is what is causing SMK all this pain) 

Ford, Dodge and GM went upmarket for their trucks...meeting up at the doorstep of Mercedes' downmarket path...

Dont fault Detroit for that mess...

Dont make excuses for Mercedes for that mess...

 

[Robert Hall]

Trucks are just trucks, though...no matter how fancy they are inside.   

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

 so an AMG E Class is also not luxury BECAUSE the E Class is utilitarian in some markets outside the US... 

 

That may be the dumbest thing I've read in a while...the E has lower trims and higher trims.  

Edited April 5, 2020 by Robert Hall

[oldshurst442]

Yeah...you find it hilarious that a pickup truck is a luxury vehicle.

I find it hilarious that a taxi cab in Greece is a luxury vehicle States side...