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Genesis News: 2021 Genesis G80 Packs New Styling, Two Turbo Engines


William Maley

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8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Pickup trucks don’t have performance and won’t until the Cybertruck arrives.  Also a King Ranch or High Country truck is still a far cry from an Audi A6 in terms of interior and technology let alone the higher luxury vehicles.

I mean the Kia Telluride has a better interior than a Denali pickup, can’t get Super Cruise in a Silverado or Sierra either and Audi A8 has a system more advanced than Super Cruise.  Trucks are expensive (and do well on resale) but that doesn’t make them luxury.

Yes because hi-po pickups have done so well here in the past. Oh wait. They haven’t. They are niche and if that is what the fugly Cybertruck is hanging it’s hat on, then Tesla nor you understand the pick up market here. 
 

(Looks at the hauling and towing capability of an A8 and wonders what in the F are you babbling about.)
 

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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

China keeps Audi afloat.  Audi sells about as many cars in China as Chevy sells Silverados in the USA.

GMC Sierra Denali is probably the nice truck out there, the new Ram has a nice high trim, and the F150 I'd say lags behind both.  So buyers don't really have another choice if they NEED a pickup and want the nice one.  This is where Toyota totally misses in the full size truck game.  The Tundra is dated as can be, has a V8 from 13 years ago that has seen no updates, the truck is a joke.  I know an all new Tundra is coming, but there should be an all new Tundra ever 6-7 years.  They should sell easily double the number of Tundras that they do now.  They can sell 500,000 RAV4's but they can't sell 100k Tundras a year?

And there should be a Lexus Truck that is a hybrid turbo V6, 450ish hp, that has all he off road capability of the Land Cruiser (which would make it the most capable truck) all the luxury and tech of an LS or LC plus Lexus-level reliability.  This should be such a no-brainer.  Toyota has nearly endless cash, they could outspend Ford's F150 program any day of the week if they wanted to, and they have one of the premier luxury brands and premier reliability and resale value brands in the stable.   They could easily sell a Lexus pickup starting at $75-80k, with options up to $100k.  I think that would outsell the LS500 at the same price point and most of the tooling is already paid from the Tundra that they already have that is a volume product.

When the RAV4 came out originally, Detroit was selling BOF SUVs.  Only the RAV4 and Honda CR-V were selling crossovers 25 years ago.  Then came the original Lexus RX300, arguably the first luxury crossover.  Swapping Corolla/Camry sales for the RAV4 has been nothing but Toyota minting money for the better part of this past decade.  Yes the Tundra is dated because it does not sell and neither does the Nissan Titan for good reason: truck buyers are quite loyal to Detroit pickups.  Since Toyota has a very hard time outselling the Chevy Silverado in any month over the past 20 years, they should simply discontinue the Tundra (and drop any pretense of building a Lexus pickup truck).  If anything, Toyota should watch out for Hyundai/KIA AND make Lexus even more successful than it already is rather than pursue the fool's errand of competing in the BOF truck wars that Toyota simply cannot win.

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2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Yes because hi-po pickups have done so well here in the past. Oh wait. They haven’t. They are niche and if that is what the fugly Cybertruck is hanging it’s hat on, then Tesla nor you understand the pick up market here. 
 

Which is why pickups aren't a luxury vehicle, the high power versions were short lived and done, the 2 Lincoln attempts and 1 Cadillac attempt didn't work.  People aren't going to pay above a certain level for a truck like they will for an SUV or car.

Tesla has fans that will support anything they build.  And the Cybertruck won't sell just because it is fast, but it will sell by having the front trunk, that ramp in the tailgate, crazy styling, etc.  It will do stuff no other truck can do because of the electric drivetrain and how that is packaged.

49 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Right.  Who in their right mind would actually buy a Tundra?  Or any Toyota truck for that matter?

The Tacoma is the best selling mid-size truck and the Land Cruiser proves they can build an off roader.  Problem is the Tundra is old as dirt, and not competitive.  And look at the rest of what Toyota does:

Corolla- near top of its segment

Camry- benchmark in its segment

RAV4- benchmark in its segment

Lexus RX- most popular in its segment and benchmark front drive crossover.

Avalon/Lexus ES- pretty much the last man standing in their segment

Prius, the benchmark hybrid until the RAV4 became the #1 selling hybrid in America

Wherever Toyota puts effort they are successful.  But they put zero effort in the Tundra.

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36 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

When the RAV4 came out originally, Detroit was selling BOF SUVs.  Only the RAV4 and Honda CR-V were selling crossovers 25 years ago.  Then came the original Lexus RX300, arguably the first luxury crossover.  Swapping Corolla/Camry sales for the RAV4 has been nothing but Toyota minting money for the better part of this past decade.  Yes the Tundra is dated because it does not sell and neither does the Nissan Titan for good reason: truck buyers are quite loyal to Detroit pickups.  Since Toyota has a very hard time outselling the Chevy Silverado in any month over the past 20 years, they should simply discontinue the Tundra (and drop any pretense of building a Lexus pickup truck).  If anything, Toyota should watch out for Hyundai/KIA AND make Lexus even more successful than it already is rather than pursue the fool's errand of competing in the BOF truck wars that Toyota simply cannot win.

See, I don't think truck buyers will be that loyal to Detroit if a better option came along.  The Tundra isn't good and it like a 2007 time capsule being sold in modern times.  But Toyota put Detroit our of business in sedans (for the most part) and minivans save for the Pacifica, Toyota outsells the Ranger and Colorado.  The RAV4 and Highlander took a big chunk of Detroit's SUV market.  So all those buyers were not loyal to the Detroit 3, I don't think truck buyers are all that different.  Yes some will only buy Ford or only buy Chevy no matter what, but if Toyota came out swinging with their massive cash supply, they could pump $2 billion into an all new Tundra that mops the floor with the competition.  I don't think they'd outsell Chevy, but I bet they could sell 250,000 Tundras and steal 50,000 sales from each of the Detroit 3. 

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16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

1 Cadillac attempt didn't work

It did work.

Chevy canceled the Avalanche. Not Cadillac.

Chevy deemed the Avalanche too costly to produce...at a time when GM was going bankrupt.   Let me remind you that the Avalanche and the Cadillac EXT was an SUV though...so your point is null and void...

The Blackwood was just a poor attempt...for a Lincoln.

But...Ford F150 higher trimmed packages that rival Mercedes E Class price tags are selling like hot cakes ever since the Blackwood was introduced and especially when it went away...and those F150s were soooooo much better at doing luxury than the Blackwood itself...

So...like usual...you are going round and round in a circle saying nothing and accomplishing just as much. 

PS:  Dodge Ram high priced and high trimmed pick-up trucks are also a hot commodity.   I bet you Dodge sells more 50 000-70 000 dollar trucks than Mercedes Benz does SUVs/CUVs and sedans COMBINED

It dont matter if you dont think pick-up trucks are not luxury vehicles.

But what does it say about your Mercedes, a so called luxury brand...gets out sold by work oriented trucks with price tags that rival so called luxury vehicles by said luxury brand?

Lowly Fords, Dodges and GMCs outsell Mercedes Benz's so called luxury vehicles...

Your argument is soooooo outta whack...you yourself do not know what to say next...

1. Price is your argument... realizes that pick-up trucks are expensive as hell

2. Proceeds to say that price is not a factor. Performance is.

3. Realizes that pick-up trucks are quite capable in some areas as sporty cars but do other performance things that sports cars could never and will be able to do!!!

4. Proceeds to say trucks are utilitarian.

5. Proved that Mercedes Benz so called luxury car even in 2019 is utilitarian...

6. Proceeds to try to sway the bar that luxury trucks have failed....yet...does not realize that his first attempt to dismiss was that pick-up trucks are sold with luxury price tags...but not luxury...yet folk with money buy plebeian branded pickup trucks with Mercedes Benz price tags...realizes that that is not a good thing for Mercedes luxury perception...

7.  Round and Round we go on the Merry Go Round...

 What is luxury?

This?

2020 Ford F-150 King Ranch 4X4 Truck For Sale In Pauls Valley OK ...

Why the Ram 1500 Could Become the 2020 Luxury Car of the Year ...

 

Or this?

New 2020 Mercedes-Benz GLA GLA 250 for Sale Boise ID #20M2220 ...

 

 

 

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If Ram sells more $50-70k trucks than Mercedes, which I still doubt since a very low percentage are Big Horn, then I guess Ram is beating Cadillac at the luxury game too.  And as I have said earlier Mercedes sells more $100k+ vehicles than any other car brand in the world.  That is the difference, yes Mercedes sells $40k vehicles but Ram sells $22,000 Promaster Citys, GMC sells $26,000 Terrains, Chevy sells $13k Sparks next to $75k Corvettes, it doesn't matter.  

And truck incentives are the highest in the industry, JD Power puts the avg light duty pick up with a $51,700 sticker but a $42,036 avg transaction price.  

The Ram and Sierra start at $29k, and those Denali and Big Horns still are stuck with the same switchgear that is in those cheaper trucks.  Not luxury vehicles regardless of what they cost. 

And if these truck interiors were so great, why haven't Chevy, Ford and Ram put those interiors into their sedan and SUV lines and saved them from being taken over by Toyota and Honda?

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Guess at what price the GLA starts at?

Its HIGHER than the base pick-up trucks.  

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Not luxury vehicles regardless of what they cost. 

But...you just shot yourself in the foot...

E Class is 54 000...Longhorn is 45 000...

Longhorn Laramie is nicer inside than a base E Class...

Therefore any vehicle from Mercedes  BELOW an S Class  is NOT Luxury...

And THAT is according to YOUR argument and point of view. 

Steam Community :: Video :: CommonSnipe92 BF4 THAT IS WHY YOU FAIL

52 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

1. Price is your argument... realizes that pick-up trucks are expensive as hell

2. Proceeds to say that price is not a factor. Performance is.

3. Realizes that pick-up trucks are quite capable in some areas as sporty cars but do other performance things that sports cars could never and will be able to do!!!

4. Proceeds to say trucks are utilitarian.

5. Proved that Mercedes Benz so called luxury car even in 2019 is utilitarian...

6. Proceeds to try to sway the bar that luxury trucks have failed....yet...does not realize that his first attempt to dismiss was that pick-up trucks are sold with luxury price tags...but not luxury...yet folk with money buy plebeian branded pickup trucks with Mercedes Benz price tags...realizes that that is not a good thing for Mercedes luxury perception...

7.  Round and Round we go on the Merry Go Round...

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If Ram sells more $50-70k trucks than Mercedes, which I still doubt since a very low percentage are Big Horn, then I guess Ram is beating Cadillac at the luxury game too.  And as I have said earlier Mercedes sells more $100k+ vehicles than any other car brand in the world.  That is the difference, yes Mercedes sells $40k vehicles but Ram sells $22,000 Promaster Citys, GMC sells $26,000 Terrains, Chevy sells $13k Sparks next to $75k Corvettes, it doesn't matter.  

And truck incentives are the highest in the industry, JD Power puts the avg light duty pick up with a $51,700 sticker but a $42,036 avg transaction price.  

The Ram and Sierra start at $29k, and those Denali and Big Horns still are stuck with the same switchgear that is in those cheaper trucks.  Not luxury vehicles regardless of what they cost. 

And if these truck interiors were so great, why haven't Chevy, Ford and Ram put those interiors into their sedan and SUV lines and saved them from being taken over by Toyota and Honda?

Cadillac has not sold anything resembling a pickup truck since GM cancelled the Avalanche/Escalade EXT several years ago.  GMC is doing quite well in selling Sierra Denalis at the moment; same with top of the line Silverados.  The real question is what percentage of each pickup truck sales are high-end vs. work trucks vs. middle of the road.  As for why those interiors are not in sedans and SUVs, there is a reason for that too.  A LOT of Detroit SUVs get similar interiors to the pickup trucks based on trim level: Denali SUVs and pickups get virtually identical interiors.  Same with FORD.  The sedan issue is simple: the sales of Detroit sedans has fallen off so quickly that FORD and GM and FCA are largely out of the sedan business entirely.  Good decision? IDK, but understandable given that sales are now with SUVs and crossovers and trucks these days.

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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

If Ram sells more $50-70k trucks than Mercedes, which I still doubt since a very low percentage are Big Horn, then I guess Ram is beating Cadillac at the luxury game too.  And as I have said earlier Mercedes sells more $100k+ vehicles than any other car brand in the world.  That is the difference, yes Mercedes sells $40k vehicles but Ram sells $22,000 Promaster Citys, GMC sells $26,000 Terrains, Chevy sells $13k Sparks next to $75k Corvettes, it doesn't matter.  

And truck incentives are the highest in the industry, JD Power puts the avg light duty pick up with a $51,700 sticker but a $42,036 avg transaction price.  

The Ram and Sierra start at $29k, and those Denali and Big Horns still are stuck with the same switchgear that is in those cheaper trucks.  Not luxury vehicles regardless of what they cost. 

And if these truck interiors were so great, why haven't Chevy, Ford and Ram put those interiors into their sedan and SUV lines and saved them from being taken over by Toyota and Honda?

That’s rich coming from someone who constantly touts AMG version of every Benz yet they also only count for a small percentage of total sales. Different here is that the D3 take on high trim trucks is a much higher percentage than Benz with AMG AND top level trims. 
 

You know what? F this. How about we just stick to the G80?

Edited by surreal1272
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1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

The real question is what percentage of each pickup truck sales are high-end vs. work trucks vs. middle of the road.

Actually...same applies to Mercedes.

How many low level GLAs and CLAs and crappy 4 cylinder C Classes  does Mercedes roll out and favorable priced lease queen E Classes and  GLCs  vis a vis the higher priced ones?

I bet you...Dodge and Ford and GMC and Chevy sell MORE 50 000 dollar price tagged trucks than Mercedes does in that same 50 000 dollar range.

Mercedes has sold 320 000-380 000 units in the US the last 5 years.

The GLC and the C Class are the top cars that sell in the US.

60 000 units per year for the C Class and 70 000 for the GLC

That totals 130 000 units.  About half.

45 000 E classes, 20 000 GLAs, 15 000 CLA.  That is another 70 000 units 

200 000 units so far.

Add another 50 000 GLEs and  another 15 000 S Classes and we are at 265 000. 

The rest comprises of 40 000 vans, 7 000 G Class SUVs, 4 000 GTs,  1 500 SLs, 1 500  SLCs and we are at the 315 000 units level

https://www.daimler.com/investors/reports-news/financial-news/20200104-mbusa-sales-dec.html

Numbers are good enough...

60 000 C Classes...

starts at 42 000

70 000 GLCs

starts at 52 000

I doubt that the GLC goes above 60 000 dollars. Lease queen. 

I doubt the C Class goes above 45 000 dollars. Lease queen also.

That makes an avg trans price of 52 000... for 130 00 units

GLE starts at 55 000

E Class starts at 54 000

avg trans price Id say 60 000 dollars. for another 100 000 cars.  

We bump up that avg trans price  $55 000 for 230 000 units.

CLA and GLA Id say avg trans prices at 45 000.  It wont move the needle as that only makes up for 35 000 units.

Avg trans prices for M-B in the US according to MY logic is 55 000 for a measly 260 000 - 280 000 units...

https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/average-new-vehicle-transaction-prices-up-3-5-year-over-year-in-january/

That link says that M-B ATP is at 58 000-59 000 dollars.  Im gonna say that my analysis is accurate because in my analysis I am not including 100 000 dollar S Class sales...even at only 15 000 units...

 

Ford sells 900 000 F150s and its variants

Dodge sells close too 700 000 Rams and its variants. Maybe more now...

GM sells 600 000 Chevy Silverados and another 250 000 Sierras.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/10/the-average-pickup-truck-price-is-closing-in-on-50000/

In 2018...GM said that the  ATP on  its trucks in 2018 is closing in on 50 000 dollars...

The Silverado STARTS at 29 000...

GM sells 850 000 trucks...

Without me doing any more math...Im dizzy.... Im going to safely say that yes...Ford, GM, Dodge sell MORE 50 000 dollar trucks than Mercedes does 50 000 dollar vehicles...as I think GM, Ford and Dodge OBLITERATES the 280 000 unit mark with expensive as phoque   Longhorns, King Ranches and Silverado HD/Denalis...  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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It does not bode well for Mercedes' luxury plans when plebeian branded,  work oriented  utilitarian pick-up trucks rival transaction prices and sales figures with those of Mercedes so-called luxury vehicles...

Maybe because...

Anything below the S Class in the Mercedes line-up is not luxury?

Or...

Is it that Lonhorn Laramies, King Ranches and Denalis ARE luxury?

Tough pill to swallow.  Which reality do you wanna follow?  Any which way you cut it...its no bueno for Mercedes Benz.

 

 

 

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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Non sequitor, your comparisons hold no water.  Apples and oranges. That there are pickups that have similar prices to MB luxury models means nothing, there are Peterbilt, Kenworth, etc trucks that are more expensive.  Or RVs.  Or Corvettes.   Many vehicles are in the same price bracket that aren’t competitors.  
 

I thought this was a Genesis thread.   Seems to have really gone off the rails. 

Edited by Robert Hall
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2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

That’s rich coming from someone who constantly touts AMG version of every Benz yet they also only count for a small percentage of total sales. Different here is that the D3 take on high trim trucks is a much higher percentage than Benz with AMG AND top level trims. 
 

You know what? F this. How about we just stick to the G80?

I haven't seen where they have split out the percentage and take rate.  But I still stick to there is a price limit where a pick up truck won't sell and there are $200,000 sedans, coupes and SUVs, heck there are $400,000 options in those 3 body styles, there is not even a $100k pickup.  The Detroit 3 would charge that kind of money if they could get it.  

G80 as I said looks nice, but sedans are slow sellers and G80 will need crazy aggressive pricing to have any chance.  Where the effort needs put is GV60 and GV70 because small and compact SUVs are what sell.  And one day they'll try a GV90 but again, who is going to pay $90k for a Genesis SUV?  Not going to happen.

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Non sequitur?

Why?

Because trucks are now considered to be luxury vehicles rather than status quo sedans?

News Flash: Its been an SUV and Truck world ever since OJ was running from the cops at 5 mph waaaay back when Eurodance was just hitting the dance clubs in NYC and Montreal. 

Because plebeian brands are hitting luxury price tags? Well... luxury brands are hitting plebeian  price tags...it goes both ways you know...

It may be a Bizarro world in 2020...but it dont change the fact that pickup trucks from mainstream brands are in reality luxury vehicles and luxury brands are producing and selling  mainstream level vehicles.  

Please dont be hypocritical and say a GLC or worse...a G wagon... is a luxury truck JUST because it wears a luxury brand logo on the hood, and dismiss a GMC Sierra Denali or Ford Kings Ranch truck JUST because it dawns a utilitarian and mainstream badge...

Because if you say a GLC is luxury and deny a Denali...your thought process is non-sequitur. Your logic does not follow...

And the fact that a 2019 E Class is a mainstream taxi car in other parts of the world does you no  favours with this non-sequitur rebuttal...

And yes...18 wheelers are expensive...but quite luxurious too...if equipped that way. Plus...these modern 18 wheelers got technology that rivals the best of the automotive world.  Everything that defines...luxury. 

Price to price

interior to interior

engine choice to engine choice

fit and finish to fit and finish

tech to tech

Base E Class/base GLC or top of the line GLA versus high priced Detroit pickup trucks...very much indeed  is apples to apples and very much sequitur as it follows a very logical path.  One that you or SMK dont wanna admit to...but yeah...

 

 

 

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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28 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Non sequitor, your comparisons hold no water.  Apples and oranges. That there are pickups that have similar prices to MB luxury models means nothing, there are Peterbilt, Kenworth, etc trucks that are more expensive.  Or RVs.  Or Corvettes.   Many vehicles are in the same price bracket that aren’t competitors.  
 

I thought this was a Genesis thread.   Seems to have really gone off the rails. 

Exactly, they are pointless comparisons because American luxury brands have gotten to be so sad, the American car fans are left with Ram and Sierra pickups as the last best option. 

Here is 2019 Revenue:

Volkswagen $282.9 billion on 10.34 million units

Toyota $272 billion on 9.70 million units

Daimler $186.6 billion on 3.34 million units

Ford $156 billion on 4.90 million units

Honda $141.1 billion on 4.83 million units

Hyundai-Kia $137.8 billion on 7.2 million units

Renault-Nissan $129.9 billion on 9.22 million units

GM $110.9 billion on 7.74 million units

FCA $108 billion 4.36 million units

 

Daimler is 3rd in revenue and has the lowest volume of the bunch.  I think they are doing fine.  

 

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6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Exactly, they are pointless comparisons because American luxury brands have gotten to be so sad, the American car fans are left with Ram and Sierra pickups as the last best option. 

Here is 2019 Revenue:

Volkswagen $282.9 billion on 10.34 million units

Toyota $272 billion on 9.70 million units

Daimler $186.6 billion on 3.34 million units

Ford $156 billion on 4.90 million units

Honda $141.1 billion on 4.83 million units

Hyundai-Kia $137.8 billion on 7.2 million units

Renault-Nissan $129.9 billion on 9.22 million units

GM $110.9 billion on 7.74 million units

FCA $108 billion 4.36 million units

 

Daimler is 3rd in revenue and has the lowest volume of the bunch.  I think they are doing fine.  

What will be interesting is how well G80 does in Asia. Seeing those numbers, Hyundai-Kia is major player in the global market. G80 may do well for them in Asia even if it is a dud here.

 

 

Edited by smk4565
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9 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Non sequitur?

Why?

Because trucks are now considered to be luxury vehicles rather than status quo sedans?

 

You miss a fundamental point---price tag doesn't equate to luxury.  There are plenty of expensive vehicles that aren't luxury vehicles. 

Edited by Robert Hall
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38 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

You miss a fundamental point---price tag doesn't equate to luxury.  There are plenty of expensive vehicles that aren't luxury vehicles. 

Yup...

And you missed the point that Mercedes vehicles that have the SAME EXACT price tags as those high fallutin' pickup trucks..dont equate to luxury vehicles either...

And THAT is the point...

Example

Mercedes-Benz E 200 d Taxi (W213) '2016–20

That E Class...is not a luxury vehicle...

Therefore...

Not a luxury vehicle

Mercedes-Benz E-Class - Wikipedia

 

But wait...there is more 

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

But I still stick to there is a price limit where a pick up truck won't sell and there are $200,000 sedans, coupes and SUVs, heck there are $400,000 options in those 3 body styles, there is not even a $100k pickup.

 You both have to decide what argument you want to stick to...

Define what is luxury first...and then come and discuss it with me.

You will find that whatever definition you choose, it does not bode well for Mercedes luxury perception vis-a-vis high priced pickup trucks and Mercedes Benz vehicles below the S Class... 

 

I repeat...

Price to price

interior to interior

engine choice to engine choice

fit and finish to fit and finish

tech to tech

Mercedes base GLC and base E Class are no more luxury than top trimmed pickup trucks.

Or...

If you want to play the hypocrite game.

Mercedes base GLC and E Class are luxury...but so are the top trimmed pickup trucks. 

You cant have it both ways.  

 

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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 I say base E Class and base GLC...but you yourself dont equate expensive price tags to luxury so an AMG E Class is also not luxury BECAUSE the E Class is utilitarian in some markets outside the US...just like how pickup trucks ARE utilitarian in the US market. In other parts of the world thoughl ike  in Russia and in Dubai...if a Russian oligarch or an oil sheik baron decide to export a Kings Ranch F150...its luxury...)  (you could try to counter all you want...the sad reality is that Mercedes went down market in the US and THAT is what is causing SMK all this pain) 

Ford, Dodge and GM went upmarket for their trucks...meeting up at the doorstep of Mercedes' downmarket path...

Dont fault Detroit for that mess...

Dont make excuses for Mercedes for that mess...

 

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Trucks are just trucks, though...no matter how fancy they are inside.   

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

 so an AMG E Class is also not luxury BECAUSE the E Class is utilitarian in some markets outside the US... 

 

That may be the dumbest thing I've read in a while...the E has lower trims and higher trims.  

Edited by Robert Hall
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