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    William Maley

    New York 2018: 2019 Cadillac CT6 V-Sport Packs 550 Horsepower V8

      Exclusive V8 engine to Cadillac


    Cadillac is updating the CT6 for 2019 with revised styling including a grille inspired by the Escala concept, new headlights, and reshaped trunk lid. The interior boasts an updated infotainment system with a 10-inch 1080P touchscreen and rotary dial controller with physical shortcut buttons to most used functions. But the big news is under the hood.

    Cadillac is introducing an all-new twin-turbo 4.2L V8 engine with double overhead cams. Making its debut in the all new CT6 V-Sport, the V8 produces 550 horsepower and 627 pound-feet of torque. Cadillac says this engine is a clean-sheet design, as evidence by the “hot-V” configuration -  the turbochargers sit in between the cylinder banks to reduce turbo-lag and making the engine more compact. The V8 sends its power through a new 10-speed automatic to all four wheels. The engine will be hand-built at GM's Bowling Green, Kentucky's Performance Build Center.

    In 2019, a lower output version of the twin-turbo V8 will become an option on the CT6, producing 500 horsepower. The only differences between the high and low-output versions are a different ECU tune and more restrictive exhaust.

    Other performance goodies for the CT6 V-Sport include revised settings for the steering and Magnetic Ride Control system; limited slip differential, larger brakes, active exhaust system, summer-only performance tires, and a Track Mode setting. Exterior changes include a blacked-out grille, 20-inch wheels, "high-lumen" headlights, and integrated spoiler.

    The introduction of the CT6 V-Sport also marks a change in how Cadillac organizes their trim lineup. It will become forked with Luxury trim on one side and V-Sport on the other side.

    No word on when the 2019 Cadillac CT6 will arrive at dealers.

    Source: Cadillac
    Press Release is on Page 2


    Cadillac Introduces First-Ever CT6 V-Sport

    • New high-performance V-Performance model
    • V-Sport model boasts all-new Cadillac 4.2L Twin Turbo V-8
    • First in a series of new Cadillac performance vehicles

    Cadillac today unveiled the CT6 V-Sport, the first-ever V-Performance model of its top-of-range sedan. The introduction of the high-performance variant coincides with a makeover of the entire CT6 lineup that incorporates the newest iteration of Cadillac’s design language featured on the Escala Concept. The Cadillac V-Sport portfolio currently includes the CTS V-Sport and the XTS V-Sport.

    “Cadillac V-Sport is the embodiment of our passion to deliver an exhilarating driving experience without compromises,” said Cadillac President Johan de Nysschen. “The all-new CT6 V-Sport provides the perfect balance of performance and luxurious refinement.”

    The CT6 V-Sport boasts an all-new Cadillac 4.2L Twin Turbo V-8 Cadillac -estimated at 550 horsepower (410 kW) and stunning 627 lb-ft of torque (850 Nm) that elevates the CT6’s performance to a new plateau and offers drivers an unparalleled experience behind the wheel. The engine is a clean-sheet design and introduces unique design elements developed to balance performance and efficiency with compact, mass-efficient packaging.

    At the center of the Cadillac Twin Turbo V8 is a “hot V” configuration that transposes the conventional layout of the cylinder heads’ intake and exhaust systems to mount the turbochargers at the top of the engine — in the valley between the heads — to virtually eliminate turbo lag and reduce the engine’s overall packaging size.

    “With the introduction of the all-new CT6 V-Sport, Cadillac begins a new chapter in its performance legacy with the introduction of the brand’s first-ever twin-turbo V-8 engine,” added de Nysschen. “It is the centerpiece of the new CT6 V-Sport, an engaging sport sedan infused with DNA of Cadillac’s world-renowned and championship-winning motorsports program.”

    The new Cadillac Twin Turbo V-8 is matched with a 10-speed automatic transmission. Its broad, 7.39 overall gear ratio spread enhances off-the-line performance and contributes to reduced engine speed on the highway for refinement and efficiency. Narrow steps between the gear ratios also help the engine maintain the optimal speed for maximum power at almost all vehicle speeds.

    OPTIMIZED FOR PERFORMANCE

    The first-ever Cadillac CT6 V-Sport includes a bold, dark front with a large V-inspired mesh grille and new horizontal LED headlamps with strong vertical signatures, making it distinctly Cadillac. Lower aero components and Gloss Black side window surround trim provide the performance sport sedan’s chiseled exterior with a dark and distinguished look. New, unique 20-inch V-Sport wheels with summer-only tires[1], lower aero components and spoiler further express the sedan’s performance capabilities.

    • New, summer-only performance tires developed exclusively for Cadillac V-Sport are tuned to deliver crisp response and track capable performance while retaining isolation and comfort.
    • Mechanical limited-slip rear differential increases traction at the limit and provides more predictable performance during spirited and track driving.
    • V-Sport specific suspension tuning for improved roll control, cornering capability and steering response.
    • A new 19-inch Brembo brake system developed specifically for the CT6 high-performance application.
      • Brembo monoblock, fixed-opposed, four-piston
      • Equipped with performance linings and air deflectors that direct air to cool the brakes during sporty, aggressive driving
    • Modified steering and Magnetic Ride Control damper calibrations
    • Exhaust system with active valves offering reduced back pressure and more sound character
      • Tuned for V-Sport model, with a performance oriented exhaust note

    TRACK MODE, OPTIMIZED FOR PERFORMANCE

    • Maximized Magnetic Ride Control damper control
    • Re-mapped steering efforts for sportier, dynamic feedback
    • Track-tuned Active Rear Steer
    • Revised AWD torque split
    • Unique, track-focused stability controls
    • Track focused active exhaust valve calibration

     “The CT6 V-Sport was developed for driving enthusiasts who want the best of both worlds: a high-performance sports sedan and a luxury car with all the comforts and technology that come with it,” said Lyndon Lie, CT6 chief engineer. “With its lightweight architecture, an all-new Cadillac Twin Turbo V-8 coupled with the tightened suspension and revised AWD torque split, we’ve enhanced the CT6 to be well-balanced and capable of all conditions.”

    REFRESHED CT6 LINEUP

    CT6 retains a dominant vertical light signature and adds horizontal elements to give the front end a more aggressive appearance. That inspiration continues to the back with the new rear lighting graphic, which is most visible at night.

    "The V-Sport gave us the opportunity to accentuate the aggressive dynamics of the architecture," said Andrew Smith, executive director of Cadillac Design. "The CT6 is the first entry that incorporates cues for the new Sport and V-Sport model strategy, which allowed us to make the car look as powerful as it drives."

    In addition to the introduction of the CT6 V-Sport, the 2019 CT6 lineup incorporates Cadillac’s new “Y” trim strategy for its models — each model will have Luxury and Sport trims with distinct personas and features. On non-V-Sport CT6 models, new horizontal high-lumen headlights and a revised taillight design refresh Cadillac’s signature lighting, inspired by the Escala Concept.

    INTUITIVE TECHNOLOGIES 

    Led by the latest Cadillac user experience — the brand’s most advanced infotainment interface — the CT6 offers a connected environment.

    The Cadillac user experience is a dynamic platform that offers a smartphone-like experience with an intuitive interface, faster response and improved voice recognition from previous generations. The system can be updated over time to meet a customer’s evolving connectivity needs. It leverages the cloud and available embedded 4G LTE connection to enable personalization, available connected navigation and news, marketplace and entertainment applications via the app store and a new rotary controller that offers users alternative ways to interact with the system.

    The new controller includes volume and seek forward/back controls for the audio system; shortcut buttons for fast access to the most frequently used apps such as Audio, Phone, Navigation (if available) and Home; and a large center dial to operate primary features of the most frequently used apps, scroll menus and lists and select other apps to be displayed.

    Additional CT6 technologies include:

    • Super Cruise, the first truly hands-free driver assistance feature for the freeway, is available (non- V-Sport only)[ii].
    • The 10-inch diagonal Cadillac user experience interface screen has 1080p HD resolution.
    • Next-generation, 5-watt wireless charging with larger charge area for better phone compatibility[iii].
    • Available Cloud-connected navigation provides real-time traffic and routing.
    • Rear-seat Infotainment has media input through USB, HDMI or Wi-Fi connection to a phone.
    • The second-generation Rear Camera Mirror has a new frameless design and zoom and tilt features.
    • The full suite of available active safety features includes Forward Collision Alert, Lane Change Alert with Side Blind Zone Alert, Lane Keep Assist with Lane Departure Warning, Rear Cross Traffic Alert, Forward/Reverse Automatic Braking, and Safety Alert Seat
    • Available Surround Vision provides a 360-degree camera view around the vehicle, displayed on the Cadillac user experience screen, helping the driver avoid nearby objects during low-speed maneuvering
    • Available industry-first Surround Vision Recorder video recording system can record front and rear views while driving, and 360 degrees of recording if the vehicle’s security system is activated.
    • Night Vision helps identify people and large animals via heat signatures on a display in the driver information center.
    • Available Automatic Parking Assist with Braking steers the vehicle and applies the brakes at idle speed to help park in parallel or perpendicular spaces while the driver follows text commands, selects gear, and overrides braking and acceleration as needed.
    • Available Front Pedestrian Braking provides pedestrian detection indications, alerts and automatic braking to help avoid collisions or reduce the harm caused by one.
    • New available Rear Pedestrian Detection alerts the driver, when in Reverse, of an imminent collision with a pedestrian by providing visual notification on rear view camera display.

    Safety or driver assistance features are no substitute for the driver's responsibility to operate the vehicle in a safe manner.  The driver should remain attentive to traffic, surroundings and road conditions at all times.  Visibility, weather, and road conditions may affect feature performance. Read the vehicle's owner's manual for more important feature limitations and information.

    Cadillac Introduces First-Ever Twin-Turbo V-8 Engine

    • Sophisticated, all-new 4.2L Twin Turbo V-8 is at the heart of new CT6 V-Sport’s exemplary performance

    Cadillac begins a new chapter in its high-performance legacy with today’s introduction of the brand’s first-ever twin-turbo V-8 engine. It is the centerpiece of the new CT6 V-Sport, an engaging sports sedan infused with DNA of Cadillac’s world-renowned motorsports program.

    Developed as a small-displacement V-8 in the classic vein and offering exceptional power density of 131 hp (98 kW) per liter, this new Cadillac-exclusive 4.2L Twin Turbo V-8 — GM estimated at 550 horsepower (410 kW) and 627 lb-ft of torque (850 Nm) — elevates the CT6’s performance to a new plateau and offers drivers an unparalleled experience behind the wheel.  An optional 500-horsepower version will also be available.

    “Cadillac’s performance technology reaches new heights with the new and exclusive 4.2L Twin Turbo V-8,” said Cadillac President Johan de Nysschen. “The engineering prowess embodies the very spirt of Cadillac performance on and off the racetrack.”

    The new Cadillac Twin Turbo V-8 is a clean-sheet design that also introduces unique design elements developed to balance performance and efficiency with compact, mass-efficient packaging.

    “Designing an all-new engine was the best way to achieve the performance goals for the CT6 V-Sport,” said Jordan Lee, 4.2L TT V-8 chief engineer. “It builds on Cadillac’s well-established turbocharging know-how and forges new ground with innovative features that deliver exceptional performance and refinement.”

    At the center of the 4.2L Twin Turbo V-8 is a “hot V” configuration that transposes the conventional layout of the cylinder heads’ intake and exhaust systems to mount the turbochargers at the top of the engine — in the valley between the heads — to virtually eliminate turbo lag and reduce the engine’s overall packaging size.

    In a conventional turbocharged engine, the cylinder heads receive the pressurized air charge through ports at the top of the engine and the exhaust exits through ports on the lower outside of the heads into manifolds connected to the turbochargers.

    With Cadillac’s innovative hot V design, the intake-charged air enters through the lower outside of the heads and exits through the top inside — where the turbochargers are integrated with the exhaust manifolds — for quick spool-up that translates into more immediate power delivery. The design also allows closer mounting of the catalytic converters, for efficient packaging.

    Additional engine highlights:

    • Twin-scroll turbochargers
    • Electronic wastegate control
    • Twin water-to-air charge coolers
    • Twin throttle bodies
    • Direct injection
    • Dual-independent camshaft phasing
    • Active Fuel Management (cylinder deactivation)
    • Variable-pressure oiling system
    • Stop/start technology

    Each engine will be hand-built at the Performance Build Center in Bowling Green, Kentucky.

    SMALL DISPLACEMENT, LARGE EFFECT

    The new Cadillac Twin Turbo V-8’s foundation is an all-new, durable and lightweight aluminum cylinder block that houses an equally robust, lightweight rotating assembly composed of a forged steel crankshaft, forged steel connecting rods and high-strength aluminum pistons.

    The crankshaft’s 90.2mm (3.55 inch) stroke complements the cylinder bores’ 86mm (3.39 inch) diameter to give the engine its 4.2L (255 cubic-inch) displacement.

    Its comparatively small bore dimension enables the reduction in the size and weight of the pistons, optimizing the engine’s geometry to match the fast-rev capability permitted by the engine’s low-inertia, twin-scroll turbochargers. The result is exceptional responsiveness and immediacy of power across the rpm band.  

    The turbochargers produce up to 20 pounds of boost (1.38 bar) and are matched with electronic wastegate control for more precise boost management and more responsive torque production. In fact, 90 percent of the engine’s peak torque is available at only 2000 rpm, and it is carried through 5200 rpm for a confident, virtually bottomless power reserve.

    TWIN-SCROLL TURBOCHARGERS

    The turbos’ twin-scroll design broadens their performance capability, offering quicker response and greater efficiency. Rather than a single spiral chamber (scroll) feeding exhaust gas from the exhaust manifold to drive the turbine on each turbocharger, the twin-scroll design has a divided housing with two exhaust gas inlets and two nozzles to drive the turbine. Generally, one of the nozzles contributes to quicker response and boost production, while the other contributes to overall peak performance.

    Each of the engine’s integrated exhaust manifolds/turbocharger housings splits the exhaust channels from the cylinder head so the exhaust flows through separate scrolls based on the engine’s exhaust pulses. When matched with precise valve timing, that separation leverages exhaust-scavenging techniques to optimize gas flow, improves turbine efficiency and reduces turbo lag.

    The electronically controlled wastegates — one per turbocharger — are used for more precise management of the engine’s boost pressure and subsequent torque response for smoother, more consistent performance. They are independently controlled on each cylinder bank to balance the turbo compressors’ output, for greater boost pressure response.

    WATER-TO-AIR CHARGE COOLING AND DUAL THROTTLE BODIES

    An efficient water-to-air charge-cooling system contributes to the engine’s performance, enhancing the turbochargers’ effectiveness. Similar in concept to an engine’s radiator, the system’s intercoolers cool the boosted air charge before it enters the cylinders. Cooler air is denser, which means there is more oxygen in a given volume, resulting in optimal combustion and more power.

    The system features a pair of heat exchangers located above the valley-mounted exhaust manifold/turbocharger housings. The turbos pump pressurized air directly through the heat exchangers and into the cylinder heads. The heat exchangers are cooled by their own coolant circuit.

    The intercoolers lower the air charge temperature by more than 130 degrees F (74 C), packing the combustion chambers with cooler, denser air. Also, the system achieves more than 80 percent cooling efficiency with only about 1 psi (7 kPa) flow restriction at peak power, which contributes to fast torque production.

    Before entering the combustion chambers, the cooled air charge flows through a pair of throttle bodies, one for each engine bank. Each electronically controlled throttle body has a 59mm diameter opening.

    NEW 10-SPEED TRANSMISSION

    The new Cadillac Twin Turbo V-8 is matched with a 10-speed automatic transmission. Its wide, 7.39 overall gear ratio spread enhances off-the-line performance and contributes to reduced engine speed on the highway, which enhances refinement and efficiency. Smaller steps between the gears also help the engine maintain the optimal speed for maximum power at almost all vehicle speeds.

    ADDITIONAL TECHNOLOGIES

    Direct fuel injection is used to optimize efficiency and performance. With direct injection, a higher compression ratio — 9.8:1 — is possible because of a cooling effect as the injected fuel vaporizes in the combustion chamber, reducing the charge temperature to lessen the likelihood of spark knock. A pair of engine-mounted, camshaft-driven high-pressure fuel pumps supplies fuel to the specialized injectors at 5,075 psi (350 bar), with each pump supplying fuel to one bank of the engine.

    Active Fuel Management (AFM), also known as cylinder deactivation, imperceptibly shuts down half of the engine’s cylinders in certain light-load driving conditions to enhance fuel economy. Unique deactivating rocker arms are used for each of the four valves of the cylinder being deactivated.

    Dual overhead camshafts and a virtually silent chain-driven valvetrain contribute to the smoothness and the high output of the Cadillac Twin Turbo V-8, while dual independent continuously variable valve timing helps deliver optimal performance and efficiency. The dual independent system, which allows the intake and exhaust valves to be phased at different rates, promotes linear delivery of torque with near-peak levels over a broad rpm range, and high specific output (horsepower per liter of displacement) without sacrificing overall engine response or drivability.

    Oil jets located in the block are employed for performance and temperature control. Four jet assemblies in the engine drench the underside of the pistons and the surrounding cylinder walls with an extra layer of cooling, friction-reducing oil. The jets reduce piston temperature, allowing the engine to produce more power without reducing long-term durability.

    Variable-pressure oiling system. A variable-displacement vane oil pump enhances efficiency by optimizing oil pressure as a function of engine speed. With it, the oil supply is matched to the engine load rather than the linear operation of a conventional, fixed-flow oil pump.  The engine uses 10 quarts of General Motors’ dexos2 0W40 motor oil.

    Stop/start technology shuts down the engine when the vehicle stops momentarily, such as at stoplights. The engine automatically restarts when the driver takes their foot off the brake. An auxiliary battery powers electric accessories such as the climate system, power windows and radio during engine restarts.

    SPECIFICATIONS

    ENGINE

    Type:

    4.2L twin-turbocharged DOHC V-8 with Active Fuel Management, direct injection and stop/start

    Bore and stroke       (in / mm):

    3.39 x 3.55 / 86 x 90.2

    Block configuration:

    90-degree V-8 with five cross-bolted nodular iron main bearing caps; with provisions for jet-spray oil cooling

    Block material:

    A319 sand-cast aluminum with pressed-in iron liners

    Crankshaft:

    Forged steel

    Pistons:

    High-strength hypereutectic aluminum with friction-reducing polymer skirt coating

    Connecting rods:

    Forged steel with floating wrist pins

    Cylinder heads:

    Cast aluminum “hot V”-type with 36mm intake valves and 29mm sodium-filled exhaust valves

    Compression ratio:

    9.8:1

    Valvetrain:

    Dual overhead camshafts; four valves per cylinder with and dual independent valve timing

    Firing order:

    1-5-4-3-6-8-7-2 (1-4-6-7 with Active Fuel Management engaged)

    Ignition system:

    Coil-on-plug

    Fuel delivery:

    Direct injection with dual electronically controlled 59mm throttle bodies

    Turbocharging system:

    Two low-inertia twin-scroll turbochargers with electronically controlled wastegates and water-to-air intercooling

    Max boost:

    20 psi (1.38 bar / 138 kPa)

    Horsepower             (hp / kW @ rpm):

    550 / 410 @ 5700 (CT6 V-Sport) – est.

    500 / 373 @ 5000-5200 (CT6) – est.

    Torque
    (lb.-ft. / Nm):

    627 / 850 @ 3200-4000 (CT6 V-Sport) – est.

    553 / 750 @ 2600-4600 (CT6) – est.

     

    TRANSMISSION

    Type:

    Hydra-Matic 10L90 ten-speed electronically controlled automatic

    Gear ratios (:1)

    4.696 – 1st

    2.985 – 2nd

    2.146 – 3rd

    1.769 – 4th

    1.520 – 5th

    1.275 – 6th

    1.000 – 7th

    0.854 – 8th

    0.689 – 9th

    0.636 – 10th

    4.866 – Reverse



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    I have been saying for 10 years that Cadillac needs a DOHC V8, finally they have one, better late than never, but I feel like this car is about 3 years too late, they should have had this at launch time of the CT6.

    Will this engine be in the XT5?  Oh wait, it won't work since the XT5 is wrong wheel drive, poor product planning strikes again!   At least they got the powertrain right in the CT6 finally, I would make the 3.0TT the base engine, dump the 3.6 V6.  And when CT5 arrives go with a turbo 4 base, 3.0TT V6 middle, and 4.2 V8 V-series or V-sport.

    I'd put this new V8 in the Escalade too, and if this is the CT6 V-sport, is there a CT6 V coming with more power?  But how many of these will they sell?  The world hasn't shown much demand for $100k+ Cadillac sedans, but you have to build it first and hope they will come.

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    The XT5 being a commodity lease appliance doesn't need a V8; competitors like the Lexus RX and Nautilus don't have V8s..

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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    1 minute ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    The XT5 being a commodity lease appliance doesn't need a V8; competitors like the Lexus RX and Nautilus don't have V8s..

    WEAK competitors!  The GLC and GLE have twin turbo V8s and the XT5 is closer to GLE in size than it is GLC, you could put a V8 in the XT4 even.  The Alfa Romeo Stelvio has 505 hp and that is a small crossover.

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    22 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    WEAK competitors!  The GLC and GLE have twin turbo V8s and the XT5 is closer to GLE in size than it is GLC, you could put a V8 in the XT4 even.  The Alfa Romeo Stelvio has 505 hp and that is a small crossover.

    Different niche, though.... the Mercs and BMWs are serious RWD/AWD SUVs as opposed to appliance FWD/AWD CUVs like the XT5, RX, and Nautilus. 

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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    Nice to see Cadillac making a DOHC V8 sedan again.. interesting change in the taillights and deck lid trim.   I like the brown seats, but hold the carbon fiber trim.  I wonder if we will see this engine in the CTS-V or whatever the next midsize performance sedan is called? (CT5-V?).

    Since it's being built at Bowling Green, one can speculate a variation of this engine will power the next Corvette.. 

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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    I think what SMK is trying say is that the possible exposure to this new engine is far greater in an utility vehicle than a shrinking sedan segment.

    But they want this engine to be hand-made at the Performance Build centre.

    I think when Cadillac builds their performance crossover, that it will get this engine. But they could just skip that BS.

    Cadillac probably plans to get make a performanc EV crossover. That's what i would do. Skip this V8 bullshit for crossovers, just get a decent sized XT5 sized thing, add dual motor like Tesla, put a 300 mile range capable battery size, a fast charging capabilty and call it a Cadillac XT_VEEEE...

    That's where everybody else is going anyways, and most people if you gave them pics of a performance crossover, with AMGs, Ms, and SQ's, and then a base model Tesla X, they will put the base model Telsa X as an equal to an AMG.

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    The 3.6 TT in the XT5 would be more than enough. It's already the second best selling vehicle in its segment and the segment leader doesn't have a high power version either. 

    This new V8 is very pretty looking. Plus, I like the updates to the look of the CT6.

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    Huh: 0.2L larger than the merecedes S560 4.0TT, but develops 87 more HP and 111 more TRQ. Plus a 10-spd trans.
    Wonder when mercedes will respond.

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    3 hours ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Different niche, though.... the Mercs and BMWs are serious RWD/AWD SUVs as opposed to appliance FWD/AWD CUVs like the XT5, RX, and Nautilus. 

    I thought Cadillac was supposed to be serious performance and not a FWD appliance?

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    1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

    I thought Cadillac was supposed to be serious performance and not a FWD appliance?

    Well, the XT5 is their volume model.   

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    8 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Huh: 0.2L larger than the merecedes S560 4.0TT, but develops 87 more HP and 111 more TRQ. Plus a 10-spd trans.
    Wonder when mercedes will respond.

    That extra .2 liters is going to hurt in China where the displacement tax drastically increases over 4.0 liters.

    And the S63 4.0 liter makes 603 hp and 664 lb-ft.  So they still got Cadillac beat and an S73 is in the works, I imagine they will save that for the next generation since it is a hybrid.

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    1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

    That extra .2 liters is going to hurt in China where the displacement tax drastically increases over 4.0 liters.

     

    They have the 2.0L 4 for China. 

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    2 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Well, the XT5 is their volume model.   

    It is but the GLE (M-class) has been a top 3 selling Mercedes for about 10-15 years and put up plenty of volume despite being $15k more than an RX or XT5.  And the GLC outsells the XT5 and RX globally.  XT5 should cost more than a CTS, a mid size crossover should cost more than a mid size sedan.

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    6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    It is but the GLE (M-class) has been a top 3 selling Mercedes for about 10-15 years and put up plenty of volume despite being $15k more than an RX or XT5.  And the GLC outsells the XT5 and RX globally.  XT5 should cost more than a CTS, a mid size crossover should cost more than a mid size sedan.

    Yes, but Cadillac's reality is different than M-Bs; Cadillac has to use GM platforms, which means FWD crossovers...

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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    14 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    The vast majority of XT5's are AWD.

    Yes, but it's still built on a transverse engine FWD-origin platform, nothing special...

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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    That displacement tax is just dumb, shows where even the Chinese gov't like any government isn't good at picking winners or losers.

    But that really is no problem, laundered money can easily sidestep the tax.

    Here's the real conclusion. This car is the lightest in its segment, and now it has a really powerful power-train. It will be the performance king of the fullsize segment, and it actually looks like a sleeper. And that speaks to me. Why does an AMG S63 have to be so overstyled? This is clean.

    Does performance matter? Who cares really, all this car has to do is have a V8 to be considered credible. And now it does. It's a pretty good V8 too.

     

    And it'll probably spend more days being driven or being driven in, than being worked over in the dealership.

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    3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    The 3.6 TT in the XT5 would be more than enough. It's already the second best selling vehicle in its segment and the segment leader doesn't have a high power version either. 

    This new V8 is very pretty looking. Plus, I like the updates to the look of the CT6.

    I almost thought it was a new Duramax, it looks really properly durable, look at the at fuel lines!!!

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    1 hour ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Yes, but it's still built on a transverse engine FWD-origin platform, nothing special...

    Yes, but neither is RWD 'anything special'. Aren't most of those also AWD??
    Besides, the entire reason the XT5 is even in this thread is a suggestion this engine go in the XT5, but it 'can't' because it's FWD... when most are AWD, just like the CT6 V-Sport is going to be. Swap the subframe out & shoehorn a longitudinal V8 in (provided that's what Cadillac wants to).

    Edited by balthazar
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    Shockingly effective transformation of the CT6.  Fine looking engine, nice stats.  Good looking, authoritative front end.  Interior looks top notch.  Don't like the taillight morph.  Needs to remain fully vertical.

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    1 hour ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Yes, but Cadillac's reality is different than M-Bs; Cadillac has to use GM platforms, which means FWD crossovers...

    They can develop a rear drive platform to sell 15-20,000 CT6 per year globally but can’t develop a rear drive crossover platform that could be used on XT4 and XT5 and sell 200,000 units per year?  Fuzzy math.

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    16 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Yes, but neither is RWD 'anything special'. Aren't most of those also AWD??
    Besides, the entire reason the XT5 is even in this thread is a suggestion this engine go in the XT5, but it 'can't' because it's FWD... when most are AWD, just like the CT6 V-Sport is going to be. Swap the subframe out & shoehorn a longitudinal V8 in (provided that's what Cadillac wants to).

    If rear drive is nothing special, then build the CT6 on an Impala chassis, make a 3.6 liter 310 hp V6 the range topper and call it a day.  

    The XT5 being priced below the CTS would be like Chevy pricing the Equinox below the Cruze.  Same size class, similar under pinnings, but they jack the price of the Equinox up because it is a crossover.  Cadillac does the opposite and makes the crossover cheaper than the sedan. L

    20 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

    Shockingly effective transformation of the CT6.  Fine looking engine, nice stats.  Good looking, authoritative front end.  Interior looks top notch.  Don't like the taillight morph.  Needs to remain fully vertical.

    Agree on the tail lights, they look like the designer sneezed when drawing it, should be straight vertical like classic Cadillac tail lights, what then went for looks like it game of a Nissan or something where there is an angle just for the sake of having an angle.

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    37 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

    Shockingly effective transformation of the CT6.  Fine looking engine, nice stats.  Good looking, authoritative front end.  Interior looks top notch.  Don't like the taillight morph.  Needs to remain fully vertical.

    I would say exactly that about the new CT-6. 

    But knowing me. It be about 1000 words long. So I will spare you folk the unnecessary wastage of words and space.

    So...what Blu said! 

     

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    They can develop a rear drive platform to sell 15-20,000 CT6 per year globally but can’t develop a rear drive crossover platform that could be used on XT4 and XT5 and sell 200,000 units per year?  Fuzzy math.

    That's GM. I assume future Cadillac crossovers will use the generic platforms Chevy, GMC and Buick use for their crossovers...Cadillac should have a dedicated RWD-based platform for its CUVs, and leave the commodity FWD crud to Chevy, GMC, and Buick.

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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    Only issue I have is the tailights.  I do not like them.  LOVE the Cocoa seats and really like just about everything else.  I wonder how soon the new CT6 interiors will spread to a new XT7 and MCE XT5.  The CT6 new cruise control is a really sweet feature.

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    Love the Brown warm interior and over all the whole auto is just spot on for an update. My only dislike is what a number of fellow members have stated. The rear tail lights are just WRONG! :nono:

    My only other beef is that for the touch screen, yea a 1080P screen is an update, but in today's day of tech, why did they not go with a true high end screen like what Apple or Samsung have put into their tablets or smartphones.

    They should have gone beyond what everyone else has rather than just equalling them. Lead, do not follow the tech.

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    It is a vast improvement.  I like the front end better and the back is using the Escala themes.  I was reading about the car on another site. Someone said is the CT6 with a V8 a CT8?  Hmmmm... The rear was influenced by Cadillac Eldorado.  Now.. if they would fix that window design in the c pillar and put the quarter windows on the rear doors where they belong, we would have real winner. 

     

    A quote from the auto extremist:

     

     Editor-in-Chief's Note: World renowned? Please. GM Racing decided to brand its IMSA DPi cars as Cadillacs for political reasons, there is nothing "world-renowned" about it. It was a decision of convenience, at best. And by the way, this will not be an exclusive "Cadillac" engine as some reports are suggesting. Look for it to show up in the next-generation, mid-engine C8 Corvette in 5.5-liter configuration, and in a super high-end Escalade. Wait, what? Yes, you read it here first. You don't think GM is going to spend the kind of cash necessary to develop this engine for what will amount to be less than 2,000 CT6 V-Sport sedans a year, do you? (If that.) The Cadillac release goes on, and on, and on, so if you want to find out more about this car - and the rest of the "refreshed" CT6 lineup - I'm sure you won't have to look very hard. We, on the other hand, don't care. Why? This week, Cadillac is the company with the genuine performance legacy, which is truly unmitigated bullshit. Next week, at the New York Auto Show, Cadillac will be all about how it's an SUV company with its new XT4 compact SUV. And the week after that Cadillac will return to its regularly scheduled programming as an "occasional" luxury automaker that exists for the Chinese market only. And so it goes. -PMD

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    • You meant Escala, not Eldorado.

    • How is where the quarter window is located make the design 'need fixing'? I can't find that to remotely be an issue.

    • Update to the car looks great IMO, tho I'm not a huge fan of the blacked out grille- I'd like to see it in person but generally speaking, such always feels cheaper to me. Cadillac has near a century of history with bright grillework.

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    • You meant Escala, not Eldorado.

     

    I meant Eldorado which the Escala borrowed from.  It looks like the Escala in the rear. The tail lamp design also looks like a previous generation Honda Accord too. 

    • How is where the quarter window is located make the design 'need fixing'? I can't find that to remotely be an issue.

    I am so sick and tired of every car using that tired Audi and Impala six window design. Name one car that does not use that look today. It looks worse on the Malibu and the KIA's. Most mid sized/ largeer sedans have it. Cadillac needs to do do something Cadillac or something different.  The Continental does not use it.  It looks disjointed on most cars. It looks like an after thought.  Put the quarter window on the rear doors where then belong. The end. 

    • Update to the car looks great IMO, tho I'm not a huge fan of the blacked out grille- I'd like to see it in person but generally speaking, such always feels cheaper to me. Cadillac has near a century of history with bright grillework.

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    42 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    • You meant Escala, not Eldorado.

    • How is where the quarter window is located make the design 'need fixing'? I can't find that to remotely be an issue.

    • Update to the car looks great IMO, tho I'm not a huge fan of the blacked out grille- I'd like to see it in person but generally speaking, such always feels cheaper to me. Cadillac has near a century of history with bright grillework.

    The 6 window greenhouse with the quarter window in the C-pillar is the easiest way at a glance to distinguish a CT6 from a CTS in profile. 

    V-series models usually have blacked out grilles.    Makes sense for the V-Sport trim.  I'm sure the regular CT6 will have a bright grille. 

    1 minute ago, NINETY EIGHT REGENCY said:

     


    • How is where the quarter window is located make the design 'need fixing'? I can't find that to remotely be an issue.

    I am so sick and tired of every car using that tired Audi and Impala six window design. Name one car that does not use that look today. It looks worse on the Malibu and the KIA's. Most mid sized sedans have it. Cadillac needs to do do something Cadillac or something different.  The Continental does not use it.  It looks disjointed on most cars. It looks like an after thought.  Put the quarter window on the rear doors where then belong. The end. 
     

    The 6 window greenhouse with the quarter window in the C-pillar is the easiest way at a glance to distinguish a CT6 from a CTS in profile.   Cadillac has done 6 window greenhouses before; in the 50s and early 60s, so it's not unprecedented.  It's simplistic and conformist to say the quarter window 'belongs' on the rear door. 

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    40 minutes ago, ykX said:

    And MB vs Caddi bickering goes on ... :)

    Love how it looks, interior looks great too.

    Always will as long as their is a fanboy of each in the room. :deathwatch:

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    1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

    Always will as long as their is a fanboy of each in the room. :deathwatch:

    Considering M-B is generally perceived as the world standard of the luxury market, comparisons will be inevitable..

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    The only thing I don't like is the taillights. They look awkward to me. I like the current gen's better. 

    That being said, it would never be the thing to stop me from buying it. Overall, it looks great. 

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    The 6 window greenhouse with the quarter window in the C-pillar is the easiest way at a glance to distinguish a CT6 from a CTS in profile.

    CTS is going away and being replaced by CT5 and looking at the CT5 spy photos, it does not have the six window design thankfully. 

     

    The 6 window greenhouse with the quarter window in the C-pillar is the easiest way at a glance to distinguish a CT6 from a CTS in profile.   Cadillac has done 6 window greenhouses before; in the 50s and early 60s, so it's not unprecedented.  It's simplistic and conformist to say the quarter window 'belongs' on the rear door. 

    I had no problem with the six window design from the past. The one on the 1963  Oldsmobile Ninety Eight  and the 1975 Oldsmobile Ninety Eight do not bother me. As you know I own a 1995 Oldsmobile Ninety Eight. They flow with the look of the car. My issue is it does not flow or blend in with the styling.  It looks like an after thought. Holden did it right with the Caprice and Statesman.   It is just a personal opinion.  I think the other updates are great too. 

     

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    Tho this is far from a point of contention for me, if I think about it my impression is that a 4-dr with quarter windows IN the rear door is a compromise- as they never open (used to 50 years ago), they are ONLY there to facilitate the lowering of the rear glass all the way. Not that it looks bad, I simply don't care to see that engineering compromise:

    80CAD-04HR.JPG

    See what I mean; go back 10 years and the engineers 'got it done' :

    1970_Cadillac_Hardtop_Sedan_Deville_left.jpg

    Of course- a lot of that has to do with a huge wheelbase. :D

    I like the CT6 6-window look, I think on this car at least it looks more upscale.

    Edited by balthazar
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    I truly wish the XT5 and other upcoming Cadillac crossovers where based on their sedans Alpha platform with a base RWD configuration. They could have had true performance versions of these crossovers as well as their great sedans. This new V8 is much needed by Cadillac and here is hoping it will come in the next CTS/CT5 or what ever silly naming scheme they call it in a non V or V sport version!

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    3 minutes ago, Carguy said:

    I truly wish the XT5 and other upcoming Cadillac crossovers where based on their sedans Alpha platform with a base RWD configuration. They could have had true performance versions of these crossovers as well as their great sedans. This new V8 is much needed by Cadillac and here is hoping it will come in the next CTS/CT5 or what ever silly naming scheme they call it in a non V or V sport version!

    The question you have to ask yourself is this: "What advantage does a RWD platform bring to the XT5?"

    Will it sell better? Probably not, it already sells better than RWD entries from other manufacturers.

    99% of People don't by crossovers, RWD or otherwise, for performance.  The Explorer outsells the Grand Cherokee. The RX outsells the GLC. The Highlander outsells the 4Runner.  The Atlas will vastly outsell the Toureg.  The QX60 vastly outsells the QX70.

    If we were talking about coupe or sedans with a performance interest, the RWD may matter... but most people who buy crossovers just check the AWD box on the order form and go about their day without a second thought.  People certainly aren't choosing a GLC over an RX because of RWD.

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    22 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    The question you have to ask yourself is this: "What advantage does a RWD platform bring to the XT5?"

    Brand image. 

    They can get away from the "re-badged Chevy" stigma. 

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    Just now, ccap41 said:

    Brand image. 

    They can get away from the "re-badged Chevy" stigma. 

     

    Cadillac is in the business of making money. With the XT5, they are probably printing it since it's just an Acadia with different styling. So I ask again, do you see a switch to RWD as something that would push the XT5 to sell better than the RX?   Would moving to RWD increase sales enough to make up for the lost profits of a more expensive (due to lower volume) platform? Does a move to RWD satisfy anyone other than enthusiasts who aren't buying in the segment anyway?

    Explain the business case, in dollars, as to why Cadillac should make such a move. 

    Up until very recently, the XTS was routinely outselling the CTS and still outsells the CT6.   The enthusiasts keep pushing Cadillac to do go RWD, but the business case for that isn't clear.  Now, while I personally like the XTS, I can certainly see that it isn't the right product for Cadillac these days, but the XTS is probably the most profitable car line for the entire brand.  

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    I think it is about more than one single vehicle though when talking about brand image. Those re-badged Chevys hurt the entire brand and hurt sales across the board. I don't think a RWD platform would improve sales for the one vehicle but I think it will help the entire brand separate itself from Chevy. 

    If the entire general public viewed the brand, as a whole, more premium then sales for everything would go up because they don't make junk but there are definitely people who still think a CTS is a re-badged Impala. I've run into them. Having re-badged Chevys isn't helping their image. 

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    43 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    Brand image. 

    They can get away from the "re-badged Chevy" stigma. 

    Brand image?

    Cant get away with the "re-badged" Chevy stigma?

    Image result for Chevrolet Traverse

    Image result for GMC Acadia

    Image result for 2018 buick enclave

    Related image

     

    Where is that stigma present in those 4 photographs?

    You are barking up the wrong tree in all 4 of those segments...albeit the GMC, Buick and Cadillac are in the same market niche fighting for the same market dollars...but nothing says that they cannot co-exist. In fact...they MUST co-exist to ensure their respective brands get sales...

    What you may want to say, is that Cadillac needs RWD sporty oriented CUVs and SUVs with V Series badging to ensure enthusiasts are well represented for the brand...

    CUVs and SUVs to go up against these machines from BMW and Mercedes

    Image result for BMW X5M

    Image result for 2017 M-B GLE AMG SUV

     

    24 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    there are definitely people who still think a CTS is a re-badged Impala. I've run into them. Having re-badged Chevys isn't helping their image. 

    Because either you are trolling with this statement...

    Quote

     

    "people who still think a CTS is a re-badged Impala"

     

     

     

    because a CTS was NEVER an Impala based car....EVER...

    never looked like the CTS could even BE an Impala.

    Image result for impala 2002 Image result for 2002 Cadillac CTS

     

    Image result for impala 2017Image result for 2017 Cadillac CTS

    So...either these guys you bumped into are trolls...much like yourself, or just cant stand Cadillac and/or GM and NOTHING that Cadillac and/or GM will do will EVER change that. Because quite honestly, NOBODY is THAT moronic and clueless to confuse a CTS of any generation with that of an Impala of any generation.

    Maybe if we went and compared a 1980s Caprice with a 1980s Fleetwood...but I doubt your entourage   were old enough to remember those cars...

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    I think it is about more than one single vehicle though when talking about brand image. Those re-badged Chevys hurt the entire brand and hurt sales across the board. I don't think a RWD platform would improve sales for the one vehicle but I think it will help the entire brand separate itself from Chevy. 

    If the entire general public viewed the brand, as a whole, more premium then sales for everything would go up because they don't make junk but there are definitely people who still think a CTS is a re-badged Impala. I've run into them. Having re-badged Chevys isn't helping their image. 

    Actually, Cadillac doesn't have any rebadged Chevys, but does have platform sharing. The XTS shares a platform w/ the Impala, but isn't a rebadge.   Though Escalade shares the large SUV platform, it has significant differentiation from the Tahoe/Suburban/Yukon.    The XT5 has similar dirty bits to many Chevy, GMC, Buick FWD/AWD crossovers.  

    The problem for the XT5 is a FWD/AWD transverse engine platform is generic and common; it's not the material of a proper luxury SUV, IMO...esp. compared to the serious RWD/AWD platforms used by BMW, M-B, etc.   It's ok for near-lux/entry-lux crossovers (NOT SUVs) from Acura, Buick, Lincoln, etc...but Cadillac should aspire to be more.   Though maybe I'm looking at this too much as an enthusiast rather than a generic lux-car leasing normcore resource unit. ;)

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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    19 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    I think it is about more than one single vehicle though when talking about brand image. Those re-badged Chevys hurt the entire brand and hurt sales across the board. I don't think a RWD platform would improve sales for the one vehicle but I think it will help the entire brand separate itself from Chevy. 

    If the entire general public viewed the brand, as a whole, more premium then sales for everything would go up because they don't make junk but there are definitely people who still think a CTS is a re-badged Impala. I've run into them. Having re-badged Chevys isn't helping their image. 

    A valid hypothesis. How has that helped Jaguar, Genesis, or Infiniti?  How has RWD helped Lexus? Their best sellers are still FWD and their worst sellers are RWD and consistently rank (undeservingly I might add) at the bottom of the sales charts for their segments. 

    Infiniti in particular saw big sales increases when they started moving back to FWD platforms.

    The bulk of Infiniti and Lexus brands sales hang on FWD vehicles.

    Cadillac saw huge sales increases when they moved the SRX from RWD to FWD, and dropped the V8.

    I'm thinking from a purely business perspective rather than an enthusiast perspective. How does Cadillac make more dollars by switching to RWD on a vehicle they already make a ton of money on?  How does a RWD XT5 translate to more CT5/S/6 sales?

    3 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Actually, Cadillac doesn't have any rebadged Chevys, but does have platform sharing. The XTS shares a platform w/ the Impala, but isn't a rebadge.   Cadillac really doesn't have any rebadges of Chevy products--the Escalade shares the large SUV platform, but has significant differentiation from the Tahoe/Suburban/Yukon.    The XT5 has similar dirty bits to many Chevy, GMC, Buick FWD/AWD crossovers.  The problem is a FWD/AWD transverse engine platform is generic and common; it's not the material of a proper luxury SUV, IMO...esp. compared to the serious RWD/AWD platforms used by BMW, M-B, etc...

    If we're going to get into "proper" materials on the XT5, the drivetrain is the least of that vehicle's worries.  Once you get away from the nice dashboard, the plastics and other materials are Chevy grade and not at all premium.  I much rather Cadillac spend the money there than on an all new RWD platform.

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    1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    How does a RWD XT5 translate to more CT5/S/6 sales?

    From what I gather...there wont be any "re-badged" Chevy stigma...   :dizzy:

    (I cant believe Im still reading trolly responses like that in 2018...)

     

     

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    1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

    From what I gather...there wont be any "re-badged" Chevy stigma...   :dizzy:

    (I cant believe Im still reading trolly responses like that in 2018...)

     

     

    Maybe a RWD/AWD XT5 would be taken more seriously by the press and favorably compared to BMW and MB, rather than just being a lowly FWD/AWD generic lease appliance like the Lexus LX, Lincoln MKX, etc...

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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    8 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    because a CTS was NEVER an Impala based car....EVER...

    never looked like the CTS could even BE an Impala.

    Image result for impala 2002 Image result for 2002 Cadillac CTS

     

    Image result for impala 2017Image result for 2017 Cadillac CTS

    So...either these guys you bumped into are trolls...much like yourself, or just cant stand Cadillac and/or GM and NOTHING that Cadillac and/or GM will do will EVER change that. Because quite honestly, NOBODY is THAT moronic and clueless to confuse a CTS of any generation with that of an Impala of any generation.

    Maybe if we went and compared a 1980s Caprice with a 1980s Fleetwood...but I doubt your entourage   were old enough to remember those cars...

     

    He's not wrong and those people aren't necessarily trolls.  People just aren't that knowledgeable.  Ages ago when I had just gotten my '04 CTS, a neighbor of mine came over to talk about it.  He was an owner of an STS.  He insisted that my CTS was FWD and Northstar powered and walked away in a huff saying I didn't know anything about cars when I corrected him. 

    A lot of people really just don't know. 

    1 minute ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Maybe a RWD/AWD XT5 would be taken more seriously by the press and favorably compared to BMW and MB, rather than just being a lowly FWD/AWD generic lease appliance like the Lexus LX, Lincoln MKX, etc...

    Since when is a GLC or X3 not a lowly lease appliance?  That's pretty much all the vehicles in this segment are.  Status Leases.

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    1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    He's not wrong and those people aren't necessarily trolls.  People just aren't that knowledgeable.  Ages ago when I had just gotten my '04 CTS, a neighbor of mine came over to talk about it.  He was an owner of an STS.  He insisted that my CTS was FWD and Northstar powered and walked away in a huff saying I didn't know anything about cars when I corrected him. 

    A lot of people really just don't know. 

    The depth of stupid of the masses can't be underestimated.  I know a guy that thought his Avalon had a V4.

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    8 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Actually, Cadillac doesn't have any rebadged Chevys, but does have platform sharing. The XTS shares a platform w/ the Impala, but isn't a rebadge.   Cadillac really doesn't have any rebadges of Chevy products--the Escalade shares the large SUV platform, but has significant differentiation from the Tahoe/Suburban/Yukon.    The XT5 has similar dirty bits to many Chevy, GMC, Buick FWD/AWD crossovers.

    They aren't the badge-jobs of a decade ago but they're the same vehicle with new fascias and slightly different interiors.. Close enough to non-enthusiasts. 

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    1 minute ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Maybe a RWD/AWD XT5 would be taken more seriously by the press and favorably compared to BMW and MB, rather than just being a lowly FWD/AWD generic lease appliance like the Lexus LX, Lincoln MKX, etc...

    This much I agree.

    So..Drew, THIS would be a HUGE plus for a RWD CUV for Cadillac. Albeit the XT5 is still needed. And needed to be FWD based. There NEEDS to be high performance/high end RWD/AWD CUVs and SUVs for Cadillac...

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    4 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    From what I gather...there wont be any "re-badged" Chevy stigma...   :dizzy:

    (I cant believe Im still reading trolly responses like that in 2018...)

     

     

    I can't believe you think that's a "trolly" statement/post.

    13 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Where is that stigma present in those 4 photographs?

    You don't need to try and convince me. Convince the general public. 

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    Just now, oldshurst442 said:

    This much I agree.

    So..Drew, THIS would be a HUGE plus for a RWD CUV for Cadillac. Albeit the XT5 is still needed. And needed to be FWD based. There NEEDS to be high performance/high end RWD/AWD CUVs and SUVs for Cadillac...

    I'm fine with that. I'm actually not a big fan of the XT5 myself... I would go GLC.  However, it has nothing to do with 0-60 or RWD/AWD.

    would be interested in a Traverse platform Cadillac that was restyled to look like a baby Escalade.... as long as they fixed the interior quibbles I have with the XT5 and maybe put the 3.0TT in there. 

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    5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    He's not wrong and those people aren't necessarily trolls.  People just aren't that knowledgeable.  Ages ago when I had just gotten my '04 CTS, a neighbor of mine came over to talk about it.  He was an owner of an STS.  He insisted that my CTS was FWD and Northstar powered and walked away in a huff saying I didn't know anything about cars when I corrected him. 

    A lot of people really just don't know. 

    Since when is a GLC or X3 not a lowly lease appliance?  That's pretty much all the vehicles in this segment are.  Status Leases.

    I wasn't talking about the entry level crud, was thinking more the X5, GLE, GLS...

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    6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    I can't believe you think that's a "trolly" statement/post.

    Well, yourself and Drew just now has proved to me that there are many idiots around. 

    I too have met idiots like that.  But those idiots are not car people to begin with. So...all kinds of shyte comes out of their mouths. 

    Im basing my statements calling them out as trolls to the people that ARE car people and have an inkling of what is actually happening in the automotive world.

    In Quebec, the furthest place in North America  that one could call it being a car enthusiast place, and I have yet to meet a car person that would be THAT dense....(non-car people aside...)

    THAT is how Im basing my statement. 

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    They aren't the badge-jobs of a decade ago but they're the same vehicle with new fascias and slightly different interiors.. Close enough to non-enthusiasts. 

    The badge jobs are the other way around... XTS came out first, Impala came out later, ATS came out first / Camaro came out later.

    The Escalade is the only one that was released after the Chevy, but it has also gotten more updates in the meantime.  The XT5 and Acadia were released simultaneously. 

    1 minute ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    I wasn't talking about the entry level crud, was thinking more the X5, GLE, GLS...

    Those are a different segment.  GLC and XT5 compete in the same price class.  Cadillac doesn't really have a true entry to compete with the GLE/X5.  Escalade is the answer to GLS and does just fine in the market competing with Benz. 

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    2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    The badge jobs are the other way around... XTS came out first, Impala came out later, ATS came out first / Camaro came out later.

    The Escalade is the only one that was released after the Chevy, but it has also gotten more updates in the meantime.  The XT5 and Acadia were released simultaneously. 

    Those are a different segment.  GLC and XT5 compete in the same price class.  Cadillac doesn't really have a true entry to compete with the GLE/X5.  Escalade is the answer to GLS and does just fine in the market competing with Benz. 

    Interesting...I would think of the XT5 as a midsize luxury CUV, while the GLC is a compact.  

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    2 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

     

    Well, yourself and Drew just now has proved to me that there are many idiots around. 

    I too have met idiots like that.  But those idiots are not car people to begin with. So...all kinds of shyte comes out of there mouths.

    Im basing my statements calling them out as trolls to the people that ARE car people and have an inkling of what is actually happening in the automotive world.

    In Quebec, the furthest place in North America  that one could call it being a car enthusiast place, and I have yet to meet a car person that would be THAT dense....

    THAT is how Im basing my statement. 

    Unfortunately, idiots buy cars.  You can go on the comments section of some of the larger automotive websites and see people who think the ATS is a rebadged Cruze.... so... fair warning... they're everywhere... even on enthusiast websites. 

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    Just now, Drew Dowdell said:

    Unfortunately, idiots buy cars.  You can go on the comments section of some of the larger automotive websites and see people who think the ATS is a rebadged Cruze.... so... fair warning... they're everywhere... even on enthusiast websites. 

    Yeah, I remember all the idiots over a decade ago that thought the GTO was a Cavalier.

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    Just now, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Interesting...I would think of the XT5 as a midsize luxury CUV, while the GLC is a compact.  

    That is probably true that the XT5 has more room than the GLC.... that's probably the reason the XT5 sells better.

    The GLC starts at $40,050 / The XT5 starts at $40,595.

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    22 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Because either you are trolling with this statement...

    Swear to God I'm not. I've talked to 2-3 people in the last 5 or so years. I corrected them but they still initially thought that. 

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    Just now, ccap41 said:

    Swear to God I'm not. I've talked to 2-3 people in the last 5 or so years. I corrected them but they still initially thought that. 

    Im sorry for that.

    Drew made that case loud and clear that idiots are in fact everywhere!

    Sorry.

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    18 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    A valid hypothesis. How has that helped Jaguar, Genesis, or Infiniti?  How has RWD helped Lexus? Their best sellers are still FWD and their worst sellers are RWD and consistently rank (undeservingly I might add) at the bottom of the sales charts for their segments. 

    Infiniti in particular saw big sales increases when they started moving back to FWD platforms.

    The bulk of Infiniti and Lexus brands sales hang on FWD vehicles.

    Cadillac saw huge sales increases when they moved the SRX from RWD to FWD, and dropped the V8.

    I'm thinking from a purely business perspective rather than an enthusiast perspective. How does Cadillac make more dollars by switching to RWD on a vehicle they already make a ton of money on?  How does a RWD XT5 translate to more CT5/S/6 sales?

    I also think Cadillac is stuck in a little awkward part of the industry because there are and will only be so many sales available each year and stealing from the giants in Germany no matter how good their product is is still just a ridiculous task(like Ford'd Fusion taking on the Camry and Accord). I see the point in not investing more and more in something that might not yield enough of a return.

    Jaguar and Genesis is still yet to be answered but the Genesis line is pretty impressive if you ask me. 

    I completely understand your last paragraph and I don't have a true answer for it. I'm not saying that they can or can't but I was just putting out there a legitimate argument, be it right or wrong. 

    28 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    So...either these guys you bumped into are trolls...much like yourself, or just cant stand Cadillac and/or GM and NOTHING that Cadillac and/or GM will do will EVER change that. Because quite honestly, NOBODY is THAT moronic and clueless to confuse a CTS of any generation with that of an Impala of any generation.

    Ever run into a non-car person and talk cars with them? That'd be the general public that isn't us. They're the people who have no clue aboue platform sharing, engine sharing, rebadging things, nothing. They see "pretty" or "not pretty". 

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    7 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

     

    Ever run into a non-car person and talk cars with them? That'd be the general public that isn't us. They're the people who have no clue aboue platform sharing, engine sharing, rebadging things, nothing. They see "pretty" or "not pretty". 

    Yup.  And I dont talk cars with them. Ive stopped conversatin' with people like that. IA while ago. Not too long ago though but I made it a rule that I wont be wasting my time with folk like that...on any subject, not just cars.  When I see the entourage near me be filled with cluelessness and clueless people, I stop being the person to enlighten and I have become the person to flee. 

    I enjoy the parties and get-togethers I go to much more now. 

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    7 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

     

    Ever run into a non-car person and talk cars with them? That'd be the general public that isn't us. They're the people who have no clue aboue platform sharing, engine sharing, rebadging things, nothing. They see "pretty" or "not pretty". 

    True, I used to have a coworker that had a BMW 5 series, that when I was talking to him about his E39 his eyes glazed over...'what's an E39?'.   Wasn't a serious BMW fan...

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    I think that RWD really is important for sedans, coupes, convertibles, etc.   While I don't believe that for my personal purchases, I do see why it matters in the market. 

    Crossovers are a totally different beast. People simply don't buy them for performance.  Furthermore, in crossovers, if people care about anything it is that they are AWD rather then FWD or RWD. Once they hear that the vehicle has AWD, they go deaf to which way the engine faces... it just doesn't matter. They'll care more about if it has Apple Carplay or not (I know that is certainly a higher factor for me than a transverse mounted engine).

    If there is anything holding back the XT5, it isn't the powertrain. The 3.6 + 9-speed is more than up to the task of moving the XT5 along briskly.  Could there be a more powerful option? Sure, but the percentage of takers is likely to be small.... it would exist purely to keep loud enthusiasts who won't buy a Cadillac anyway from flapping their gums. 

    There are a number of interior issues that I see in the XT5 that aren't related to its platform.  The plastics on the lower doors where the map pockets are is horrible. Anything lower than the dashboard is pretty bad.  The switchgear doesn't feel premium. The leather isn't as nice feeling. These are all reasons to pick a GLC over an XT5... and the exact reasons I would myself.... the powertrain is fine though. 

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    One way I do think that a Cadillac midsize RWD/AWD SUV instead or in addition to the current XT5 CUV could work is if its platform were shared w/ GMC.  A  Grand Cherokee competitor would fit nicely at GMC..picture a GMC Trailhawk competitor and 'Denali' (Summit competitor). 

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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    Just now, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    One way I do think that a Cadillac midsize RWD/AWD SUV instead or in addition to the current XT5 CUV could work is if its platform were shared w/ GMC.  A  Grand Cherokee competitor would fit nicely at GMC..picture a GMC Trailhawk competitor and 'Denali' (Summit competitor). 

    This would be a fantastic addition to the Cadillac lineup in addition to the XT5... but not instead of.  Dropping the XT5 would be dropping customers for no reason. 

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    Anyway, back to the original topic..I like the idea of a CT6 w/ a twin turbo V8.  Looking forward to seeing it in person.  Not sure about the taillights..

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    I hope (and expect) that the rest of the CT6 lineup will be updated to the new look.... minus the V-Sport flourishes of course. 

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    53 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    The badge jobs are the other way around... XTS came out first, Impala came out later, ATS came out first / Camaro came out later.

    WE know this. General public probably absolutely no clue which exactly came first. 

    They, more than likely, see 100 times more Impalas and just think that came first because they probably saw them first. 

    50 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Yeah, I remember all the idiots over a decade ago that thought the GTO was a Cavalier.

    If that's the case... one Cavalier, please! 

    48 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Im sorry for that.

    Drew made that case loud and clear that idiots are in fact everywhere!

    Sorry.

    :thumbsup: No worries

    Edited by ccap41
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    47 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    One way I do think that a Cadillac midsize RWD/AWD SUV instead or in addition to the current XT5 CUV could work is if its platform were shared w/ GMC.  A  Grand Cherokee competitor would fit nicely at GMC..picture a GMC Trailhawk competitor and 'Denali' (Summit competitor). 

    That'd be nice. I'd like that as well. 

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    1 hour ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Maybe a RWD/AWD XT5 would be taken more seriously by the press and favorably compared to BMW and MB, rather than just being a lowly FWD/AWD generic lease appliance like the Lexus LX, Lincoln MKX, etc...

    Yet Audi has had great SALES INCREASES with their FWD/AWD platform and it has not hurt them nor is there any stigma about them being FWD/AWD just like Cadillac, Acura, Lexus, etc..........

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    1 minute ago, dfelt said:

    Yet Audi has had great SALES INCREASES with their FWD/AWD platform and it has not hurt them nor is there any stigma about them being FWD/AWD just like Cadillac, Acura, Lexus, etc..........

    Yeah...but about that...

    Could it also be that Audi interiors are, like awesome, and when people actually sit inside an Audi CUV or SUV or sedan above the A4 car, are impressed and when are cross shopping with other brands like Acura, Buick, Infiniti, Cadillac and the like, are less impressed and go on to buy that Audi instead? 

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    6 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Yet Audi has had great SALES INCREASES with their FWD/AWD platform and it has not hurt them nor is there any stigma about them being FWD/AWD just like Cadillac, Acura, Lexus, etc..........

    Audi has long been about AWD, while BMW and MB have long RWD histories.   Audi doesn't have a RWD heritage.  And Audi's key strengths are their interiors and subtle, crisp exterior styling. 

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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    1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

    This much I agree.

    So..Drew, THIS would be a HUGE plus for a RWD CUV for Cadillac. Albeit the XT5 is still needed. And needed to be FWD based. There NEEDS to be high performance/high end RWD/AWD CUVs and SUVs for Cadillac...

    We have seen plenty of FWD/AWD auto's that are performance AWD models. I think you could easily beef up the proper powertrain components and have a V-Sport edition of the XT5 using the TTV6 or if it could fit, wedge in the TTV8 and have an XT5 V edition.

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    4 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    We have seen plenty of FWD/AWD auto's that are performance AWD models. I think you could easily beef up the proper powertrain components and have a V-Sport edition of the XT5 using the TTV6 or if it could fit, wedge in the TTV8 and have an XT5 V edition.

    Well, of course.

    But where is that XT5-V? Or any other performance oriented CUV from Cadillac? 

    The Germans are pumping out all kinds of models. Sure, they are pumping them out at an insane rate and its more akin to see what sticks rather than business savvy, but still. The models are there. 

    Cadillac makes concepts that has the planet salivating, ALL THE PLANET, and are afraid to build it.  (minus the couple that they did build, but failed miserably in the market-place, but that was because of their piss-poor execution than anything else, which means that Cadillac product planners got no clue of what is going on in the market place...) 

     

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    I don't think there is much market for an XT5-V in it's current form...Lexus doesn't have a RX-F, for instance. The women in the burbs leasing these don't have interest in a performance CUV.  

     Now a performance Cadillac SUV with a RWD/AWD chassis and V8 ala the M-B AMG GLE 63 or BMW X5M could be interesting....

    Or working with what they have, how about a heavyweight Escalade V-sport or V with this new twin turbo V8? 

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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    1 hour ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    True, I used to have a coworker that had a BMW 5 series, that when I was talking to him about his E39 his eyes glazed over...'what's an E39?'.   Wasn't a serious BMW fan...

    boy.........

    :P 

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    19 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    I don't think there is much market for an XT5-V in it's current form...Lexus doesn't have a RX-F, for instance. The women in the burbs leasing these don't have interest in a performance CUV.  

     Now a performance Cadillac SUV with a RWD/AWD chassis and V8 ala the M-B AMG GLE 63 or BMW X5M could be interesting....

    Or working with what they have, how about a heavyweight Escalade V-sport or V with this new twin turbo V8? 

    Yes. I agree to the XT5-V not being much of an interest and therefore not a money maker or at the very least, getting people in the showroom.

    Soccer moms, suburban housewives, scrawny yuppie middle managers that think they got a clue but really dont, dont really buy into performance vehicles of any kind really.  And they dont get excited when the sales rep talks to them about high performance either. They dont go out of their way to visit a showroom based on the fact that Model XYZ won the 24 hours of Lemans or the Nascar race on Sunday and want to buy the baby version of that car or any other car in the showroom...and the XT5 or the RX or the X1 from BMW are just vehicles with luxury intentions that makes them feel good...

    The Escalade...now that would be something of an interesting footnote in automotive history if Cadillac engineered  and offered something wild in powertrain and in sporty suspension demeanor options. 

    "If it aint broke dont fix it" would not apply here as the Escalade aint broke and it sells just fine. 

    But "why the phoque not???!!!" would do wonders in getting people in the showrooms just to look at one and see for themselves how stupendously nutty the vehicle might be and you never know, they may just drive off in a brand new CTS-V instead because they would deem the Escalade ESV-V too crazy and weird to explain to their neighbours...

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    I hope (and expect) that the rest of the CT6 lineup will be updated to the new look.... minus the V-Sport flourishes of course. 

    I also hope they add an Extended Length model. 

    I can see sales of a CT6-L edition.

    Awesome would be a CT6-L V-Sport and CT6-L V edition. :D 

    21 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Well, of course.

    But where is that XT5-V? Or any other performance oriented CUV from Cadillac? 

    The Germans are pumping out all kinds of models. Sure, they are pumping them out at an insane rate and its more akin to see what sticks rather than business savvy, but still. The models are there. 

    Cadillac makes concepts that has the planet salivating, ALL THE PLANET, and are afraid to build it.  (minus the couple that they did build, but failed miserably in the market-place, but that was because of their piss-poor execution than anything else, which means that Cadillac product planners got no clue of what is going on in the market place...) 

     

    Bravo and VALID points! :cheers:

    Totally agree that they seem to be missing many models in their lineup. This I blame on Johan being an idiot and not getting the right product to market faster. Yes Cadillac has made great progress since the First Escalade, but they need to speed up getting said product out and turning Amazing Concepts into actual Products.

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    19 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    I don't think there is much market for an XT5-V in it's current form...Lexus doesn't have a RX-F, for instance. The women in the burbs leasing these don't have interest in a performance CUV.  

     Now a performance Cadillac SUV with a RWD/AWD chassis and V8 ala the M-B AMG GLE 63 or BMW X5M could be interesting....

    Or working with what they have, how about a heavyweight Escalade V-sport or V with this new twin turbo V8? 

    I would take the current Escalade with the TTV8 as a V-Sport and with the Supercharged V8 as the V edition.

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    I don't see the business model for all the variants that BMW and Mercedes are producing.  I think they are throwing spitballs at the wall and seeing what sticks. They'll have to cut them back eventually.

    Cadillac is not "daring greatly" lately..... nor is GM as a whole.

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    18 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    I don't see the business model for all the variants that BMW and Mercedes are producing.  I think they are throwing spitballs at the wall and seeing what sticks. They'll have to cut them back eventually.

    Cadillac is not "daring greatly" lately..... nor is GM as a whole.

    I think it IS a business model. To see what sticks. Eliminate what doesnt. 

    Find what works and go that way, get rid of what doesnt.  And yes, eventually, they trim the fat. But not without creating a fan base for their vehicles. Even the models that did not sell all the well, still had some buyers...they were in THAT showroom.  And now that their vehicle wont be coming back, maybe they had a good experience with that model and will be back in that very showroom buying another M-B...

    I know what I just said could be challenged with brand loyalty data...it still does not change the fact that even with the slow selling models, people got to experience a BMW or Mercedes Benz vehicle.

    That is MORE than Cadillac since Cadillac has NO models that these people would consider buying as Cadillac lacks many many products in many many niches...

    And yes, Cadillac or GM, other than Corvette or Camaro or the V Series Cadillacs, are not daring greatly.

    And I dont mean speed, but awesome engineering and taking chances and growing the brands that are Camaro, Corvette or V-Series...

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

     

    Cadillac is in the business of making money. With the XT5, they are probably printing it since it's just an Acadia with different styling. So I ask again, do you see a switch to RWD as something that would push the XT5 to sell better than the RX?   Would moving to RWD increase sales enough to make up for the lost profits of a more expensive (due to lower volume) platform? Does a move to RWD satisfy anyone other than enthusiasts who aren't buying in the segment anyway?

    Explain the business case, in dollars, as to why Cadillac should make such a move. 

    If the XT5 was rear drive then it would start at $50k instead of $40k and the XT5-V with this new 550 hp V8 would cost $110,000 which is more than they get for a CTS-V or Escalade.  There is your profit margin and business case.  

    Then the XT4 would start at $40,000, rather than the $34k or whatever it has to start at to get under the XT5 and that XT4-V could run up to $75-80k, probably more than they charge for an ATS-V.  

    Then you get an XT4 fwd Equinox clone at $34k if you need a volume low lease price leader.

    1 hour ago, dfelt said:

    Yet Audi has had great SALES INCREASES with their FWD/AWD platform and it has not hurt them nor is there any stigma about them being FWD/AWD just like Cadillac, Acura, Lexus, etc..........

    Audi has longitude mount engines so their weight balance isn't destroyed like a transverse mounted engine car, and Audi's interiors aren't crap.

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    1 hour ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    I don't think there is much market for an XT5-V in it's current form...Lexus doesn't have a RX-F, for instance. The women in the burbs leasing these don't have interest in a performance CUV.  

     Now a performance Cadillac SUV with a RWD/AWD chassis and V8 ala the M-B AMG GLE 63 or BMW X5M could be interesting....

    Or working with what they have, how about a heavyweight Escalade V-sport or V with this new twin turbo V8? 

    Using Omega to make a GLE63 or X5 M or even X7 M competitor makes sense.   You can put this 550 hp engine in the Escalade just for the sake of charging more money for it (and they should do that) but the Escalade will never be sporty, it is too heavy and has a solid rear axle, etc.  But it works for the G-wagen, people pay $150k for it.  I could see charging $150k for an Escalade V-sport, even if they sell 50 of them a month, who cares, it is a $50k upgrade for an engine and some trim, why not go for it.

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    ...the Escalade will never be sporty, it is too heavy and has a solid rear axle

    AMG GLS is heavier than an Escalade.

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    1 hour ago, balthazar said:

    AMG GLS is heavier than an Escalade.

    Nope, a 4WD Escalade 5,856 lbs and a GLS63 is 5,754 lbs.  But they are moving the GLS to a new platform that will cut weight for 2019 anyway, problem solved.

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    I saw different numbers. No matter; the 2 are statistically identical in weight, so your theory that the Escalade is too heavy is invalidated. Next gen E will get lighter also, so "problem solved".

    BTW, I did read elsewhere that the 4.2TT is, in fact, going to get under the E's hood.

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    @balthazar @smk4565

    Pretty much a wash between AWD models, but the 2WD Escalade is the same weight as the awd GLS 550.

    image.png

    image.png

    I am sure both companies will shed some weight with their next models. Plus GM can put in more powerful NA V8's, so many more reliable GM engine options than MB has. :P

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    17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    If the XT5 was rear drive then it would start at $50k instead of $40k and the XT5-V with this new 550 hp V8 would cost $110,000 which is more than they get for a CTS-V or Escalade.  There is your profit margin and business case.  

    Then the XT4 would start at $40,000, rather than the $34k or whatever it has to start at to get under the XT5 and that XT4-V could run up to $75-80k, probably more than they charge for an ATS-V.  

    Then you get an XT4 fwd Equinox clone at $34k if you need a volume low lease price leader.

    Audi has longitude mount engines so their weight balance isn't destroyed like a transverse mounted engine car, and Audi's interiors aren't crap.

    If your argument is that Cadillac needs a RWD crossover, I'm there with you.  Where I disagree with you is the assertion that the XT5 must be that vehicle. I see no reason why both cannot exist in the Cadillac lineup.   It's not a one-or-other issue.  Cadillac can sell a baby Escalade in RWD form right alongside the current XT5.  There is absolutely no reason that Cadillac should abandon a segment they are one of the best sellers in. 

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    17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    If the XT5 was rear drive then it would start at $50k instead of $40k and the XT5-V with this new 550 hp V8 would cost $110,000 which is more than they get for a CTS-V or Escalade.  There is your profit margin and business case.

    I agree but you still need people to buy those vehicles at those prices. Just because they make them doesn't mean their sales will remain where they are for a more profitable vehicle. 

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    Also, the assertion that Audi's handling isn't bad relative to the segment is wrong. They are consistently rated lower than BMW, MB, RWD Infinitis, Cadillac, RWD Lexus.  The last SRX actually handled excellently. The XT5 is just "eh", but the point is that FWD and handling are not mutually exclusive.

     Audi's have just as much, if not more weight in front of the front axle than any transverse mounted setup. They plow hard in turns and it is only through Quattro doing its computer assisted magic that the cars don't end up in the trees. 

    The entirety of Audi's engines sit ahead of the axle centerline... even the old FWD northstars move the weight further back than that.2016-Audi-S8-Plus-Drivetrain-2-2560x1600.jpg

     

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    So Audi has the engine longitudinally mounted ahead of the front axle... odd.    Now that is on the A4 and larger sedan/coupe models, what about the smaller models like the A1 and A3--aren't those transverse FWD/AWD like VWs? 

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    2 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    So Audi has the engine longitudinally mounted ahead of the front axle... odd.    Now that is on the A4 and larger sedan/coupe models, what about the smaller models like the A1 and A3--aren't those transverse FWD/AWD like VWs? 

    The transverse Audis actually have better engine positioning than the longitudinally oriented Audis. Any Audi with a number below 4 and the TT will have a transverse engine. 

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