ehaase

Camaro Could Spawn Large Cadillac

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ehaase    18

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/...173.A11964.html

Lutz: Camaro Gear Could Spawn Big Caddy

A Cadillac with more than eight cylinders still possible, Lutz says.

by Joseph Szczesny (2007-02-25)

Could the same rear-wheel-drive platform General Motors Corp. plans to use for the new Chevrolet Camaro also be used for a new rear-wheel-drive and/or all-wheel-drive ultra-luxury Cadillac?

GM vice chairman and product guru Robert Lutz recently acknowledged it was a possibility during a conversation with journalists earlier this month at theChicago auto show.

Lutz noted that as part of global product strategy, GM would have fewer but more flexible platforms that would accommodate a wider range of vehicles and vehicle designs. Specifically, the new Camaro platform could be used for other vehicles. Lutz also hinted part of the reason for the delay in moving forward with the Camaro - it's now set to appear in 2009 - has been the need to extend the utility of the fundamental architecture so it could serve as the platform for other vehicles as well.

"What you've got to understand is that we've got this modular product architecture kit where we have two different lengths of center underbodies, two different lengths of front rails and two different lengths of rear overhang. So we can modify those elements any way we want. In the case of the Camaro, it's long short, short. If, for instance, we wanted to do a very large rear-wheel-drive Cadillac with more than eight cylinders you could do long, long, long," Lutz said.

"It's like a Lego set-you weld them together anyway you want," he added.

So far, however, GM hasn't said publicly it plans to go ahead with an ultra-luxury Cadillac. However, executives such as Mark LaNeve, GM vice president of sales, service and marketing have said they would like to move forward with an upscale Cadillac that could compete with cars such as the BMW 7-Series or the new Lexus LS460.

Lutz' remarks reflect one of the new realities that will have a profound influence on the car business in the years to come. Capital is in relatively short supply and with the exception of Toyota, the cost of borrowing has gone up dramatically for automakers all over the world. Thus, finding ways to conserve capital by spinning off more products from one basic investment has become essential.

Lutz also noted that GM is continuing to pool its product resources from around the world. "It doesn't matter where it is. It's all one organization. We've finally realized not every region has to do their own product," he said.

Even decisions on which engines to use in which products, which have traditionally been left to regional managers, are being shaped by global forces now, Lutz said.

"One of the answers, which is being increasingly adopted in Europe and we plan to use it too, is to use engines in cars that are fundamentally way too small and then turbocharge them. You could envision (the Pontiac G8) with a four-cylinder Cobalt engine but turbocharged to 270 to 280 horsepower. That's a formula that works great for fuel economy because when you're not in the acceleration game you're cruising along on a tiny, little engine," Lutz said. "Trouble is that costs about $1400. Nothing is for free."

"I think what we found with direct fuel injection is we found it boosts power faster than it boosts fuel economy; I think we would have preferred the opposite," he said.

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NOS2006    11

I saw the worlds "ultra-luxury" in there. Has GM finally decided to get Cadillac to compete with Rolls-Royce?

GM didn't say that, that was TCC.

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ehaase    18

I posted the article because I thought some of Lutz's comments about future engines was interesting. I sure would not want a G8 with a 270 hp turbo 4 cylinder, although a turbo V6 would be OK.

I really don't think this Zeta Cadillac will be ultra luxury. I think it will be nothing more than a DTS replacement.

I think Cadillac needs the CTS to become even more successful, especially in international markets, before it is ready to develop an S class competitor.

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NOS2006    11

I really don't think this Zeta Cadillac will be ultra luxury. I think it will be nothing more than a DTS replacement.

I'd probably have to agree.

I think Cadillac needs the CTS to become even more successful, especially in international markets, before it is ready to develop an S class competitor.

I'd guess GM agrees, which is probably why they're developing the CTS into so much. With such a better, higher quality interior, better drivetrain options, and the development of a coupe and wagon to go with the sedan, they're preaching that they mean business.

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Northstar    11

The DTS is most likely going on Zeta, though it's not down in ink. I don't see the DTS getting more than 8 cylinders, however.

The ULS is still up in the air more or less, the only info we know is that it isn't penciled in for Zeta, at this point at least.

The powertrain info is interesting, but I don't envision a G8 with a turbo four. Perhaps something on Alpha could have a turbo four or six in place of a normal six or eight, but I don't see it happening on Zeta. I could be wrong of course, as that's just speculation on my part.

GM didn't say that, that was TCC.

"a very large rear-wheel-drive Cadillac with more than eight cylinders you could do long, long, long" is talking about nothing other than a Ultra-Lux vehicle. He could be talking about the DTS if not for the "more than" part, as I don't see the DTS getting more than 8 cylinders unless we're getting a DTS-V.

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Flybrian    0

The DTS is the American S-Class. Remember that it occupies a very special place in the domestic luxury market, offering the large car dimensions for a midsize price.

A lineup consisting of a well-executed BLS, wide-ranging CTS, American-tailored DTS, and high-tier luxury ULS would be ideal for the American market as well as the global market. The key differentiators between the DTS and ULS would be in price and content. Envision DTS as utimately being 'Mass-ULS' or 'Budget-ULS' and selling in respectable volumes in the domestic market. ULS would be similar to DTS in size, but be positioned further up the price range ($70-100k) and offer 8+ cylinder engines. and ultra-plush interiors. I would also love to see an 2+2 coupe under the ULS line as I think a well-executed and well-styled variant would do well as a twosome against the alien Bimmers, coma-inducing Lexus, and dime-a-dozen S-Class.

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zeek    0

i think it's a good idea to spread costs and such across as much as you can but could you build a true s-class or 7 series car on a zeta platform? i would like to see a uls 4 door and possibly a uls coupe with a base v8 and either a big 8 or little 12 for a top of the line.

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bcjohnso99    0

i think it's a good idea to spread costs and such across as much as you can but could you build a true s-class or 7 series car on a zeta platform? i would like to see a uls 4 door and possibly a uls coupe with a base v8 and either a big 8 or little 12 for a top of the line.

I would think that using the same platform with better materials (high strength steel and other alloys) would yield a car suitable for the upper end of the luxury car segment.

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gm4life    5

I think it could be great or bad, pricing can't get so overly high like the STS, they need to price it like a FWD DTS. I vote for a DTS on the Chi, sales do speak to GM not everyone wants RWD! Just be careful but so long as it sells, I suppose. Better get a DTS before they switch!

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Chris_Doane    29

I saw the worlds "ultra-luxury" in there. Has GM finally decided to get Cadillac to compete with Rolls-Royce?

GM isn't ever going to compete with Rolls Royce. (or Bentley, or Maybach)

Mercedes, BMW, Lexus? Sure. Roller? Hell no. They sold 336 cars last year and the MSRP starts at about $330,000. If you don't have $30mil in assets, RR doesn't care about you.

That's not a market GM is looking to get into.

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91z4me    0

I posted the article because I thought some of Lutz's comments about future engines was interesting. I sure would not want a G8 with a 270 hp turbo 4 cylinder, although a turbo V6 would be OK.

Well it is a good thing that the G8 was added to Lutz's quote. Notice the parenthesis around Pontiac G8 in the quote. That means it was added and not specifically mentioned. I bet this said sport sedan or something similar and the author added the Pontiac G8. I speculate that Lutz may have been reffering to an Alpha sedan.

I would think that using the same platform with better materials (high strength steel and other alloys) would yield a car suitable for the upper end of the luxury car segment.

I think so as well. Afterall BMW uses 1 chassis for everything from the 3 series to the X5 and the 7 series.

I think it could be great or bad, pricing can't get so overly high like the STS, they need to price it like a FWD DTS. I vote for a DTS on the Chi, sales do speak to GM not everyone wants RWD! Just be careful but so long as it sells, I suppose. Better get a DTS before they switch!

Chi is vapor ware. It never existed outside of speculation. DTS or whatever it is called will be on Zeta.

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titan    0

Replacing the FWD DTS with a a "long, long, long" RWD Zeta based DTS is a great idea. With the proper content, materials, and equipment, it can easily be a true flagship and S/7 competitor. An eight cylinder engine with around 400HP, and a possible optional engine will all help to establish Caddy as a serious player in that segment this time around. Ofcourse, this is the brand's pinnacle of lux, so it has to be no excuses lux and excess, as in it's competitors.

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91z4me    0

if somebody could do a photoshop job on the holden caprice/statesman to give us an idea of what caddy may be thinking of in terms of looks i kno i'd appreciate it tremendously

It would look nothing like the Caprice, Grange or any of the WM line. It would have its own unique sheet metal and likely SLA front suspension instead of the double pivot McPhearson, which is what the VE/WM cars have now.

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toesuf94    0

:rolleyes: Oh this is going to be so much fun for you 3.8 haters out there...but with the words Turbo and Zeta being tossed about...The next BUICK GNX 3.8 Turbo would be cool to have back off the shelf!!!

Now I will stand back and listen to the groans!

And YES...I know this thread is about a possible Zeta based Big caddy...which would be sooo cool to see going against the likes of BMW 7 series, Audi's A8, and the Mercedes S-class. I think GM can do it, just wonder who will buy it.

Edited by toesuf94

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cletus8269    69

:rolleyes: Oh this is going to be so much fun for you 3.8 haters out there...but with the words Turbo and Zeta being tossed about...The next BUICK GNX 3.8 Turbo would be cool to have back off the shelf!!!

Now I will stand back and listen to the groans!

And YES...I know this thread is about a possible Zeta based Big caddy...which would be sooo cool to see going against the likes of BMW 7 series, Audi's A8, and the Mercedes S-class. I think GM can do it, just wonder who will buy it.

no groans from my end, i think it could be one of buicks saving graces to get the youth back in their market... of course most of the younger people that remember the psychological damage the t-types and gns had would be in their 30's and 40's at least.

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FUTURE_OF_GM    26

:rolleyes: Oh this is going to be so much fun for you 3.8 haters out there...but with the words Turbo and Zeta being tossed about...The next BUICK GNX 3.8 Turbo would be cool to have back off the shelf!!!

Now I will stand back and listen to the groans!

And YES...I know this thread is about a possible Zeta based Big caddy...which would be sooo cool to see going against the likes of BMW 7 series, Audi's A8, and the Mercedes S-class. I think GM can do it, just wonder who will buy it.

I would LOVE to see a return of Turbo Buicks!

In fact, I think it would do A LOT for the division for it (Buick) to pioneer the turbo efforts at GM. I mean, sure, the Turbo Sky/Solstice is already out. But that's a niche as opposed to a turbo Zeta or better yet a Turbo AWD Ep II.

The only problem is, this might be Pontiac or Saturn territory.

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I say the next Turbo Buick should be a Atlas 5/6 with BiTurbo! :wub:

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loki    289

i think we all know what turbo buick would be most realistic... "Velite". even a turbo'ed v6 anything(not the 2.8 as is) with a trany that could handle it would be a boon to the younger shoppers , let alone a 3.6 DI.

every "make" needs to have at least one "high performance" model, some displacement, some forced induction. saturn's RL, pontiac's GXP, chevy's SS, cadi's V-series, why not a buick "ultra" turboed model? we'll know more about the direction buick's taking in the next few months hopefully.

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gm4life    5

I think a RWD DTS will hurt sales is all, if they want to switch it to RWD that is fine but price it right. Base at 45K and loaded at 60K with pricing like that you can't go wrong. That would step on the STS's feet too much tho I think. Unless it is gone because the new CTS is so big. I would keep the DTS and the Lucerne the lone large FWD cars, to it makes sense.

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titan    0

I think a RWD DTS will hurt sales is all, if they want to switch it to RWD that is fine but price it right. Base at 45K and loaded at 60K with pricing like that you can't go wrong. That would step on the STS's feet too much tho I think. Unless it is gone because the new CTS is so big. I would keep the DTS and the Lucerne the lone large FWD cars, to it makes sense.

A base of 45K and loaded at 60K isn't enough for what the article's implying. We're talking about an S-Class/7-Series rival. That means having an interior, powertrain, and tech to atleast match them on all fronts. As I said before, this needs to be a no excuses luxury sedan. A car such as this would cost atleast as much as the LS460, and that car starts north of $60K. Let the next gen STS play it's position as a 5-Series/E-Class compeititor and fill the aforementioned price range.

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