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GM Posts $39 BILLION loss for Last Year

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CNN has a headline that says that GM is going to post a $39 billion loss last year. Not a huge surprise, as it pretty much all came in a write off from the third quarter against future tax credits

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GM posts 4Q loss on North America slump, GMAC

Reuters

February 12, 2008 - 7:30 am ET

DETROIT (Reuters) -- General Motors today said it posted a quarterly loss reflecting a slump in its North American market and losses at former finance subsidiary GMAC.

GM posted a net loss of $722 million in the fourth quarter, compared with net income of $950 million a year earlier.

But when excluding one-time charges, GM finished the quarter with adjusted net income of $46 million, compared with adjusted net income of $180 million during the same quarter of 2006.

Revenue fell to $47.09 billion, from $50.8 billion in the same quarter a year earlier.

For all of 2007, GM said its adjusted net loss was $23 million compared with an adjusted net gain of $2.2 billion in 2006.

But, as previously announced, GM took a massive $38.7 billion charge for how it calculated certain tax assets. As a result, GM's net loss was an all-time record $38.7 billion.

GM's core automotive unit posted an adjusted $553 million gain for the year compared with an adjusted $339 million loss in 2006.

"GM's worldwide vehicle sales increased 3 percent, or 277,000 units, to 9.4 million vehicles in 2007, marking the second best year in units sold in the company's 100-year history," the company said in a statement. "For the third consecutive year, a majority of the company's sales -- almost 60 percent -- were outside of the U.S."

Philip Nussel contributed to this report

Edited by RJB
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GM posts 4Q loss on North America slump, GMAC

Reuters

February 12, 2008 - 7:30 am ET

DETROIT (Reuters) -- General Motors today said it posted a quarterly loss reflecting a slump in its North American market and losses at former finance subsidiary GMAC.

GM posted a net loss of $722 million in the fourth quarter, compared with net income of $950 million a year earlier.

But when excluding one-time charges, GM finished the quarter with adjusted net income of $46 million, compared with adjusted net income of $180 million during the same quarter of 2006.

Revenue fell to $47.09 billion, from $50.8 billion in the same quarter a year earlier.

For all of 2007, GM said its adjusted net loss was $23 million compared with an adjusted net gain of $2.2 billion in 2006.

But, as previously announced, GM took a massive $38.7 billion charge for how it calculated certain tax assets. As a result, GM's net loss was an all-time record $38.7 billion.

GM's core automotive unit posted an adjusted $553 million gain for the year compared with an adjusted $339 million loss in 2006.

"GM's worldwide vehicle sales increased 3 percent, or 277,000 units, to 9.4 million vehicles in 2007, marking the second best year in units sold in the company's 100-year history," the company said in a statement. "For the third consecutive year, a majority of the company's sales -- almost 60 percent -- were outside of the U.S."

Philip Nussel contributed to this report

WOW The largest loss by any Auto Company ever. Sold 3,000 more car/ then Toyota. How sad. The General will be a Major soon at this rate. The Big 3 are in for a rough ride.

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it's a paper loss....

C'mon man. GM's already got a ton of people on payroll to apologize.

They sold more cars & barely broke even operationally, not on paper.

Sorry. That's not good.

PS-That 'on paper' loss indicates their lack of confidence that they'll see profits of any magnitude for the foreseeable future---that's not good, either.

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C'mon man. GM's already got a ton of people on payroll to apologize.

They sold more cars & barely broke even operationally, not on paper.

Sorry. That's not good.

PS-That 'on paper' loss indicates their lack of confidence that they'll see profits of any magnitude for the foreseeable future---that's not good, either.

GM's core automotive unit posted an adjusted $553 million gain for the year compared with an adjusted $339 million loss in 2006.
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More info...

GM posts biggest annual US auto loss

February 12, 2008 11:36 AM ET

Source: MSN Money; Associated Press

DETROIT (AP) - General Motors Corp. reported a $38.7 billion loss for 2007 on Tuesday, the largest annual loss ever for an automotive company, and said it is making a new round of buyout offers to U.S. hourly workers in hopes of replacing some of them with lower-paid help.

The earnings report and buyout offer came as GM struggles to turn around its North American business as the economy weakens.

But GM Chairman and Chief Executive Rick Wagoner said that the company made significant progress in 2007, reducing structural costs in North America, negotiating a historic labor agreement and growing aggressively in Latin America and Asia.

During a conference call with analysts and media, Chief Financial Officer Fritz Henderson said 2008 will be difficult, but the company sees the potential for significant earnings increases by 2010 or 2011 once it reduces its work force and labor costs and transfers its retiree health-care costs to a new UAW-run trust.

The Detroit-based automaker said it was offering a new round of buyouts to all 74,000 of its U.S. hourly workers who are represented by the United Auto Workers.

GM won't say how many workers it hopes to shed, but under its new contract with the UAW, it will be able to replace up to 16,000 workers doing non-assembly jobs with new employees who will be paid half the old wage of $28 per hour.

Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC already have announced similar buyout offers.

Henderson said GM's offer is "reasonably attractive," and the company raised the amount it was offering to match Ford and Chrysler. He said GM wants to implement lower wages as well as lower its overall worker headcount.

"We have a substantial amount we can do in terms of transformation of the work force," he said.

GM shares rose 44 cents to $27.56 in late morning trading.

GM's annual loss of $38.7 billion largely was due to a third-quarter charge related to unused tax credits.

The 2007 loss topped GM's previous record in 1992, when the company lost $23.4 billion because of a change in health care accounting, according to Standard & Poor's Compustat.

Excluding the tax charge and other special items, GM lost $23 million, or 40 cents per share, for the year, compared with a net income of $2.2 billion in 2006, beating Wall Street's expectations. Analysts polled by Thomson Financial expected GM to post a full-year loss of 95 cents per share.

For the fourth quarter, GM posted a loss of $722 million, or $1.28 per share, in the fourth quarter, compared with a net income of $950 million in the year-ago quarter. Fourth-quarter charges included $622 million to Delphi Corp., GM's former parts division, for its restructuring efforts, and a gain of $1.6 billion because of tax credits related to GM's pension liabilities and the sale of GM's Allison Transmission unit.

GM reported $181 billion in revenues for the year, down from $206 billion in 2006. Its automotive business saw record automotive revenues of $178 billion in 2007, up $7 billion from a year ago thanks to growth in emerging markets and favorable exchange rates.

GM was profitable in every region outside North America. GM's Latin America, Middle East and Africa division reported a record $1.3 billion in earnings, more than double that of 2006. GM's Asia Pacific division earned $744 million, up from $403 million in 2006, while GM Europe reported a profit of $55 million, down from a profit of $357 million in 2006.

But GM's North American division continued to struggle, posting a $1.5 billion loss for the year, nearly identical to its $1.6 billion loss in 2006. GM's North American division also reported a loss of $1.1 billion in the fourth quarter, compared with a loss of $129 million in the year-ago quarter.

Wagoner said the weak U.S. economy and high commodity prices hurt turnaround efforts in North America. He said GM's decision to reduce low-profit sales to daily rental companies by 110,000 in 2007 also affected U.S. sales.

"We're pleased with the positive improvement trend in our automotive results, especially given the challenging conditions in important markets like the U.S. and Germany, but we have more work to do to achieve acceptable profitability and positive cash flow," Wagoner said in a statement.

GM's results also were dragged down by its 49 percent stake in GMAC Financial Services, which lost $2.3 billion in 2007. GM reported a $1.1 billion loss attributed to GMAC.

GM barely retained its title as the world's largest automaker in 2007, selling just 3,000 more vehicles than Toyota Motor Corp. GM sold a total of 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide, up 3 percent from the year before.

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You gotta pay to play.

GM is doing the right thing by taking a loss now in order to stabilize in the future.

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exxon 40 billion profit

GM 39 billion loss

guess we know where the priorities are in this country

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it's a paper loss....

Automotive Operations:

Sold $178BILLION of Autos

Made $553 MILLION on that stuff!

Return: .3%

Fantastic.

the 'Paper Loss' is an indicator of where things are going---there aren't overall profits expected for years---despite selling 60% overseas (exchange rate benefit), enormous growth in China & a supposed 'landmark deal' with the US Unions---Oh yea, the guys running GM should get a raise, right?

You & I would be fired for that performance...unless you work for GM.

Edited by enzl
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the 'Paper Loss' is an indicator of where things are going---there aren't overall profits expected for years---despite selling 60% overseas (exchange rate benefit), enormous growth in China & a supposed 'landmark deal' with the US Unions---Oh yea, the guys running GM should get a raise, right?

You & I would be fired for that performance...unless you work for GM.

You have to take into account what the conditions were before you got the job though. :rolleyes:

GM announced when the "landmark deal" occurred, it would be 2-4 years before we'd see the impact.

I suppose you missed this part:

Excluding the tax charge and other special items, GM lost $23 million, or 40 cents per share, for the year, compared with a net income of $2.2 billion in 2006, beating Wall Street's expectations. Analysts polled by Thomson Financial expected GM to post a full-year loss of 95 cents per share.

Is GM profitable in all other markets other than the US? Yes

Is GM reducing unprofitable fleet sales? Yes

Is GM reducing the amount of dealerships in the US? Yes

Is GM closing factories in the US? Yes

Is GM gaining concessions from the NA Unions? Yes

Is GM reducing labor in the US? Yes

Is GM increasing the speed it introduces new models? Yes

Is GM improving quality, reliability, reputation? Yes

Is GM researching and introducing new technologies to help with fuel consumption/emissions? Yes

Is GM keeping up with emerging markets overseas? Yes

Is GM unifying all global divisions? Yes

Is GM in the best shape of the Detroit 3 Manufacturers? Yes

Is GM bleeding market share while the US market shrinks? So far, No

Is GM on the verge of Bankruptcy? No

You expect all the changes to be immediate, but you of all people should know that's impossible.

GM is headed in the right direction and Bad news is expected in the midst of restructuring.

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You have to take into account what the conditions were before you got the job though. :rolleyes:

GM announced when the "landmark deal" occurred, it would be 2-4 years before we'd see the impact.

I suppose you missed this part:

Is GM profitable in all other markets other than the US? Yes

Is GM reducing unprofitable fleet sales? Yes

Is GM reducing the amount of dealerships in the US? Yes

Is GM closing factories in the US? Yes

Is GM gaining concessions from the NA Unions? Yes

Is GM reducing labor in the US? Yes

Is GM increasing the speed it introduces new models? Yes

Is GM improving quality, reliability, reputation? Yes

Is GM researching and introducing new technologies to help with fuel consumption/emissions? Yes

Is GM keeping up with emerging markets overseas? Yes

Is GM unifying all global divisions? Yes

Is GM in the best shape of the Detroit 3 Manufacturers? Yes

Is GM bleeding market share while the US market shrinks? So far, No

Is GM on the verge of Bankruptcy? No

You expect all the changes to be immediate, but you of all people should know that's impossible.

GM is headed in the right direction and Bad news is expected in the midst of restructuring.

Hang on...am I supposed to congratulate the Rickster or "on The Fritz' for finally agreeing to the obvious?

You seem to forget that Mr. W is a GM lifer? He grows a set when the company is cirling the toilet and I'm supposed to be impressed?

GM has had a global footprint for years...now they wake up?

I also take issue with a number of your assertions:

-How profitable is GM outside the US?...judging by the facts, I'd say not too profitable...they booked an overall loss of $1.5B in the US and made 500 mill overall in cars...that's a 2 billion dollar profit on 60% of the 9.2 million vehicles produced.

-Are they reducing Fleeting? They claim they are in the US---but that issue seems to disappear periodically in the monthies here---and noone has explained what they're doing abroad---are they shifting the fleeting there? I don't iknow (neither do you) and I don't trust these guys-at all.

-They are still overdealered by about 30%...wanna guess what it's going to cost to get rid of them? Any idea what the cost from a PR perspective its going to be when old GM dealers sit empty with 'For Rent' signs all over the country?

-Do you know what it will cost to 'retire' all current high-wage Union emplyees? The buyout is greater than $62k from the last offer---for 74k employees---that's at least $4billion. How about the cost of closing old manufacturing sites? Environmental costs are unknown....and GM is solely on the hook for those as well.

-NA Union concessions will cost $, see above examples...and that contract isn't forever, in fact, it expires around the same time GM is claiming all the savings will kick in...what happens then?

-Less labor= GM killing more dependant communities? How many GM cars are going to be sold when neighborhoods look like Flint, MI?

-What new models? The Camaro has taken forever, the Impala future is up in the air---where is the product cadence you see at the import stores? The W is how old? C'mon...there is less product in the future, not more new product.

-GM's quality is up. Way up. That's the only thing I can 100% agree with. When you finally give a rat's ass, it shows, huh?

-Everyone is researching tech---GM R&D is nowhere near the best in the world. How many truly innovative techs have come out of GM recently?

-Emerging markets, by definition, have dramatic effects on sales...GM's growth in China is impressive, but it's early and their gov't could shut the door at any time! You want to rely on a Commie Dictatorship for your future profit engine?

-Global Company-congrats, they finally realized that...only Ford has been dumber on that front.

-Wow--they're better off than Ford or Chrysler!---that's like being the Valedictorian on the 'Short Bus" --Is water wet? Or the sky blue, too?

-They are treading water in a declining market, thus maintaining share...remember, they were wearing 30% pins over at the tubes a few years ago...What happened to that promise? 25% of the market with 8 brands---fantastic.

-Bankruptcy is a distinct possibility-still. Ask any accountant. One terrorist attack, one 'Black Monday' on wall Street, Housing Market collapse (all possible) means goodbye GM.

I don't expect immediate results, I just wonder how a continued failing management team has kept jobs. I'm sick of being afraid to chnage. Let Lutz be a car czar....and dump everyone else---

there is no evidence that the 'turnaround' is really working. Jan 08 figures are up--when compared to an atrocious Jan 07--look it up.

I'm not anti-GM, I'm anti-RW, Fritz and the Board of Bystanders--all allowing the slow decline of one of the greatest modern industrial concerns with Golden Parachutes on their backs.

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-How profitable is GM outside the US?...judging by the facts, I'd say not too profitable...they booked an overall loss of $1.5B in the US and made 500 mill overall in cars...that's a 2 billion dollar profit on 60% of the 9.2 million vehicles produced.
How profitable was GM outside of the US 10 years ago? Once again, look at how things looked when he took over.

-Are they reducing Fleeting? They claim they are in the US---but that issue seems to disappear periodically in the monthies here---and noone has explained what they're doing abroad---are they shifting the fleeting there? I don't iknow (neither do you) and I don't trust these guys-at all.

You can’t condemn them without basis. GM is reducing fleet sales in the US where they’re losing money and have too much capacity. GM is reducing fleet sales. GM is reducing capacity. These are positives.

-They are still overdealered by about 30%...wanna guess what it's going to cost to get rid of them? Any idea what the cost from a PR perspective its going to be when old GM dealers sit empty with 'For Rent' signs all over the country?
Since GM is targeting to consolidate in urban markets, especially where the realestate is expensive, I don’t think too many “for rent” signs will be up. Most of those properties (like in my area) are already sold pending development once the permits are received and zoning laws are changed.

-Do you know what it will cost to 'retire' all current high-wage Union emplyees? The buyout is greater than $62k from the last offer---for 74k employees---that's at least $4billion. How about the cost of closing old manufacturing sites? Environmental costs are unknown....and GM is solely on the hook for those as well.

And GM is doing it! Is that a complaint? It’s a tough choice but GM is making the right decision.

-NA Union concessions will cost $, see above examples...and that contract isn't forever, in fact, it expires around the same time GM is claiming all the savings will kick in...what happens then?
Won’t matter - smaller UAW footprint, lower wages, less plants, balanced demand/capacity. Profitability should be recovering by then as well.

-Less labor= GM killing more dependant communities? How many GM cars are going to be sold when neighborhoods look like Flint, MI?

You can’t have it both ways. GM’s charitable attributes and dedication to the small communities (that it helped develop) are both part of what trapped GM in the position it's in now. GM must break certain loyalties to survive. As you’ve said often, GM is a business. Now you’re upset because GM is making babies cry.

Toyota, Honda, and Nissan would have no remorse closing a plant in a rural community down south if they didn't have a need for it. It's just business.

-What new models? The Camaro has taken forever, the Impala future is up in the air---where is the product cadence you see at the import stores? The W is how old? C'mon...there is less product in the future, not more new product.
Speed to market was what I commented on. The Kappas took how long? The Traverse was not part of the original Lambda plan, and now it comes out this fall? The GMT900s, Malibu remodel, Aura replacement, Delta II with the Cobalt replacement, etc… etc… etc…. All have come much quicker than the old GM could have ever dreamed.

-GM's quality is up. Way up. That's the only thing I can 100% agree with. When you finally give a rat's ass, it shows, huh?

What matters? THE PRODUCT. Quality is extremely important. Considering what was pumped out of GM for 20 years prior, this is a huge accomplishment.

-Everyone is researching tech---GM R&D is nowhere near the best in the world. How many truly innovative techs have come out of GM recently?

As many as everyone else… there hasn’t been much going on that GM wasn’t already involved in. Most manufacturers are 1to2 years within each other these days. GM's R&D is nowhere near the worst either.

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-Emerging markets, by definition, have dramatic effects on sales...GM's growth in China is impressive, but it's early and their gov't could shut the door at any time! You want to rely on a Commie Dictatorship for your future profit engine?
Once again, dismissing GM's success where others are failing/ have failed. Using hypothetical reasoning to predict/hope it will fall apart?

-Global Company-congrats, they finally realized that...only Ford has been dumber on that front.

It’s a legitimate and radical change under RW. Live with it.

-Wow--they're better off than Ford or Chrysler!---that's like being the Valedictorian on the 'Short Bus" --Is water wet? Or the sky blue, too?
They’re all dealing with similar issues, but very differently. GM’s leadership has been and still is paving the way for the others. The Success and accomplishments at Ford and Chrysler is gauged by how many years they’re behind GM’s turn-around.

-They are treading water in a declining market, thus maintaining share...remember, they were wearing 30% pins over at the tubes a few years ago...What happened to that promise? 25% of the market with 8 brands---fantastic.

Yet GM sold more cars last year than ever before in history? US Market share is just a percentage. How many cars did GM sell in the US back when it had 30%? 40%? 50%? Yeah…

-Bankruptcy is a distinct possibility-still. Ask any accountant. One terrorist attack, one 'Black Monday' on wall Street, Housing Market collapse (all possible) means goodbye GM.
HAHA! That’s the case for anyone doing business right now, even financial stable companies. Quit with your sensationalism and come back to reality! Once again, using hypothetical reasoning to predict/hope it will fall apart?

I'm not anti-GM, I'm anti-RW, Fritz and the Board of Bystanders--all allowing the slow decline of one of the greatest modern industrial concerns with Golden Parachutes on their backs.

GM is an industrial dinosaur that needs RW & Co to bring it into the 21st Century.

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it's a paper loss....

Yes, it's a paper loss. But it tells us GM is not expecting significant profits over the next few years: more restructuring/downsizing. Look at the buyouts for 74K people they're seeking. 74k people is the number of employees represented by the UAW.

There's still a huge task ahead :yes:

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First: off this is old news and the press just likes to have a big headline.

Second: GM NA was not expected or has anounced they will soon be profitable. The new car lines are just now hitting and it take time to right a ship GM's size.

Now if the CTS was a flopped, the Lamdas were just sitting on lots collecting dust or snow and the Malibu sold like a FWD Chrysler sedan this would be big news. We know where this is going and we will be ok in the end.

At least GM is not talking to a India auto company to sell Hummer to. Now The Jeep/Mahindra deal that would be Big News.

The next big GM news will be Toyota passing them for #1 this year. Another non issue. Toyota is going to win the second 125 qualifying race Thursday too another non issue.

THe bottom line is selling profitable high quality cars and we are now on the way but they don't want to talk much on that.

Edited by hyperv6
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Ven-

I'm not hoping for anything negative, I'm just giving a realistic view....you're spinning everything in a positive light---and that's not going to be the reality.

GM isn't making much money anywhere. If you can predict the next 'bump in the road', that's great---but no-one can and thus being in a negative position during said occurance could mean curtains....that's just reality.

You cite a number of things that just aren't relevant. China could be gone tomorrow---many companies are having 'best ever' years there...check the sales figures. Ford and Chrysler aren't just 'behind' GM, they are in real, huge trouble--GM's fleeting in the US is down 100,000 units from '06...that's less than 9k/mo. difference---the US market has had record sales the last 5 years (more than ever historically) & GM has lost money nearly all of those years---don't dismiss the new globalism religion at GM as a positive, they're way behind the times--Perception is a huge part of GM's problem, so how is closing factories, killing towns & 'for rent' signs going to help that PR issue?---and how is the Union going to react, come next contract time? Nobody knows that, but GM is already counting on those savings, which could be wiped out with one short strike or work action---and, finally, GM's profitability outside of the US is everything NOW, as 60%! of sales are outside this country...check out how GME is doing to get an idea of how well GM is doing in mature markets outside the US, which all 'emerging' markets become at some point...

RW has presided over the largest failures in GM's history...if he wasn't CEO, he was at the top of upper management when the debacles that brought GM to their knees have been decided by his cohorts. He knew and participated in throwing away Billions for nothing-Fiat, Saab, Isuzu, Subaru, et al...I don't know about your workplace, but I'd be unemployed with that track record.

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First: off this is old news and the press just likes to have a big headline.

Second: GM NA was not expected or has anounced they will soon be profitable. The new car lines are just now hitting and it take time to right a ship GM's size.

Now if the CTS was a flopped, the Lamdas were just sitting on lots collecting dust or snow and the Malibu sold like a FWD Chrysler sedan this would be big news. We know where this is going and we will be ok in the end.

At least GM is not talking to a India auto company to sell Hummer to. Now The Jeep/Mahindra deal that would be Big News.

While I agree the press is having it's way with old news, there's nothing in the sales reports which indicates that GM's new product will stem the tide. Truck losses will wipe out any success the Lambdas, Malibu or CTS will have.

Where are the gains going to come from? Ep II is another year off, Delta II more than that, Volt is slated for '11 model year---the Aveo isn't going anywhere---Any Buick other than the Enclave isn't selling, Caddy is CTS+?, Pontiac has the g8 projected at half of the Grand Prix's sales--Saab is years from new product and Hummer is sinking like a stone with $3+ gas.

Explain how you 'cut' to prosperity? Other than Malibu (which is eating Impy sales) & Traverse, what does Chevy have? Saturn is barely selling 6 models at a volume that historically they did with 2/3.;..I just don't get it. I'm staring at the same tired line-up with a few stars that everyone else is...

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While I agree the press is having it's way with old news, there's nothing in the sales reports which indicates that GM's new product will stem the tide. Truck losses will wipe out any success the Lambdas, Malibu or CTS will have.

Where are the gains going to come from? Ep II is another year off, Delta II more than that, Volt is slated for '11 model year---the Aveo isn't going anywhere---Any Buick other than the Enclave isn't selling, Caddy is CTS+?, Pontiac has the g8 projected at half of the Grand Prix's sales--Saab is years from new product and Hummer is sinking like a stone with $3+ gas.

Explain how you 'cut' to prosperity? Other than Malibu (which is eating Impy sales) & Traverse, what does Chevy have? Saturn is barely selling 6 models at a volume that historically they did with 2/3.;..I just don't get it. I'm staring at the same tired line-up with a few stars that everyone else is...

Despite all of enzl's negative outlook, GM was the only major manufacturer to post a sales increase last month, not Toyota, not Honda, not Ford, not Chrysler, not Nissan.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/01/by-the-...s-january-2008/

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Truck losses will wipe out any success the Lambdas, Malibu or CTS will have.

Prediction... even with increasing gas prices, trucks are a requirement for many US markets.

Ep II is another year off, Delta II more than that, Volt is slated for '11 model year---the Aveo isn't going anywhere---
Last reports indicated Epsilon II debuts this fall and will arrive ahead of schedule. Delta II begins production next year as well. GM will be building several variants off of Gamma.

Any Buick other than the Enclave isn't selling

Lucerne is still matching its competitors in sales volume. The LaCrosse will be replaced in a matter of months, not years.

Caddy is CTS+?
Escalade Hybrid just debuted, CT variants on their way, BRX debut, XLR receives refresh, Zeta Cadillac still coming.

Pontiac has the g8 projected at half of the Grand Prix's sales--

G8's projected sales are retail sales. The retail sales target exceeds the Grand Prix's which is heavily fleeted.

Saab is years from new product and Hummer is sinking like a stone with $3+ gas.
Can't help you with these except new product is coming. If something comes from virtually nothing, then there's a gain.

Other than Malibu (which is eating Impy sales)
January sales say otherwise. Impala's retail sales were up around 44%?? in January. Only fleet sales were down.

Other than Malibu (which is eating Impy sales) & Traverse, what does Chevy have?
Chevrolet is getting new Delta II and Gamma vehicles within the next two(?) years. Camaro. Equinox replacement. Volt in 2010. New large sedan (FWD) in 2010/2011.

Saturn is barely selling 6 models at a volume that historically they did with 2/3.;..I just don't get it. I'm staring at the same tired line-up with a few stars that everyone else is...

Can't help you there.

Honestly, I think you need to convince your dealer principle(s) to just sell the GM franchises.

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I'd feel more comfortable if a trend of GM sales increases develops, not just one month.

I don't think enzl is being negative, nor is he twisting things around. Someone at GM has to take responsibility for things, and I don't only mean step up and smile when things are good.

What will the average US consumer likely say when they read the headline "GM Posts $39B Loss" etc.? Will they consider GM in a positive or negative light?

That said, if Mr. Wagoner was removed, who is there to do any better of a job? And why, too, if GME is so powerful in the corporate scheme of things, why don't they send someone of their choosing into the top spot at GMNA?

Edited by wildcat
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Well, that is exactly the point, isn't it: the media has dug the same old skeleton out of the closet (didn't we already debate this 'loss' back in November?) to beat GM with, just when it was beginning to look like Detroit finally was getting a road block up to Japan Inc. Strange coincidence, that, no?

Doom and gloom sells papers, plain and simple. There are a lot of nasty things going on in the U.S. market right now. Wagoner & Co. are not responsible for that. I would be more inclined to be harsher on them IF we weren't seeing a huge renaissance in product. I have not seen such interest in a vehicle as I have with the Malibu. I can say that I have had many, many Honda owners come to at least LOOK. That is a huge accomplishment.

What would be the proper course of action, Enzl? Fire Wagoner NOW? How is that going to improve things? Mullaly's impact on Ford is in its infancy. Cerebrus is having apoploxy. I can't see how changing the captain of the ship, this far out to sea is going to benefit anyone.

A lot of American icons have had to reinvent themselves. Look at IBM and what it does today, compared to 25 years ago. GM is first and foremost a MANUFACTURING compay; worse than that, it is an AMERICAN manufacturing company. Take a look around at the ruins of what was once Industrial America. Name one American manufacturing company that is doing well right now. Those that are surviving are doing so by 'off-shoring' everything.

I don't envy the position Wagoner & Co. face. They have impatient WallStreet on one side, Japan Inc. on another, and the apathy of the North American public to contend with. IBM sold its manufacturing base to Russia. Is that the solution here?

I think we need to be a little more patient with the product. I like very much what I am seeing with that , at least. 2008 will be nasty by any measure. Let's all survive that, then reconvene this tired subject in 14 months or so and see what is what.

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Despite all of enzl's negative outlook, GM was the only major manufacturer to post a sales increase last month, not Toyota, not Honda, not Ford, not Chrysler, not Nissan.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/01/by-the-...s-january-2008/

Check the January 07 figures that they are comparing them to...Jan07 was awful for GM, therefore an improvement isn't the evidence one culd use to argue they've 'turned the corner'

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Well, that is exactly the point, isn't it: the media has dug the same old skeleton out of the closet (didn't we already debate this 'loss' back in November?) to beat GM with, just when it was beginning to look like Detroit finally was getting a road block up to Japan Inc. Strange coincidence, that, no?

Doom and gloom sells papers, plain and simple. There are a lot of nasty things going on in the U.S. market right now. Wagoner & Co. are not responsible for that. I would be more inclined to be harsher on them IF we weren't seeing a huge renaissance in product. I have not seen such interest in a vehicle as I have with the Malibu. I can say that I have had many, many Honda owners come to at least LOOK. That is a huge accomplishment.

What would be the proper course of action, Enzl? Fire Wagoner NOW? How is that going to improve things? Mullaly's impact on Ford is in its infancy. Cerebrus is having apoploxy. I can't see how changing the captain of the ship, this far out to sea is going to benefit anyone.

A lot of American icons have had to reinvent themselves. Look at IBM and what it does today, compared to 25 years ago. GM is first and foremost a MANUFACTURING compay; worse than that, it is an AMERICAN manufacturing company. Take a look around at the ruins of what was once Industrial America. Name one American manufacturing company that is doing well right now. Those that are surviving are doing so by 'off-shoring' everything.

I don't envy the position Wagoner & Co. face. They have impatient WallStreet on one side, Japan Inc. on another, and the apathy of the North American public to contend with. IBM sold its manufacturing base to Russia. Is that the solution here?

I think we need to be a little more patient with the product. I like very much what I am seeing with that , at least. 2008 will be nasty by any measure. Let's all survive that, then reconvene this tired subject in 14 months or so and see what is what.

Yes.

I am stating that Wagoner should be fired. So should Fritz---and the Board clearly needs fresh blood.

If the 09 product is as good as recent intros, a new captain will do no harm, rather it will shake up the complacency that afflicts GM &, perhaps, give the rest of the world an indication that GM means business, not more of the same.

Wolfgang B.'s unemployed, no? There's go to be others out there that can bring some new ideas....

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