Camino LS6

A question

69 posts in this topic

What do you see as the "essence" of the Pontiac brand?

Please keep your replies serious and avoid commenting on the current state of the brand, that's not what I'm asking here.

What I'm asking is more "What should a Pontiac be? ", not "What should Pontiac do?", or "What is wrong with Pontiac?"

I'm looking for a brand definition here.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pontiac should be a performance brand, with vehicles different from the other brands. The everyday volume cars can be handled by Chevy. A Pontiac should be a model you can't find at one of the other brands. It should represent performance, which doesn't have to be how many horses are under the hood, but the package as a whole...the braking, driving dynamics and so on. They shouldn't be priced above a similarly sized Chevy but significantly less than say, a Cadillac.

How's that?

Edited by Dodgefan
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Every Pontiac should be sporty, powerful, youthful, and not at all boring or plain. They should be built to give feedback of the road to the driver, with handling a prime consideration. If possible beyond what's done in an average vehicle, the interior should be focused around the driver, much like a cockpit of a plane with all controls in easy reach to the driver and various engine attributes showing (such as engine rpm). Pontiac should focus on the driver and perhaps one passenger, rather than comfortable seating for 5 or hauling a family.

Pontiac = maximum performance

[ edit ] An additional thought: the exterior design should elicit a response, like "wow!," from a person. It should look fast standing still.

Edited by wildcat
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pontiac should be the in house tuner division of GM NA. Like HSV is to Holden, AMG to Benz and M to BMW.

Pontiac should offer only the best tuner versions of every car they sell. That is not to say the most expensive or or limited. THey should sell Coupes and sedans. FWD and RWD but all should be of a special nature. No standard models, no cars that are not ment for spirited driving. The base cars should be a performance model and the up level car should be a near track car.

What is wrong with Pontiac. Mixed signals. THey profess perfromance and excitment for years but give us a G3, Non Turbo G5, G6 with nothing but tacked on crap, A underpowered Toyota, a small SUV, and finally a great sports car and sedan. Only 2 cars out of a line up does not make a brand.

Every Pontiac should be tuned by GMPD.

The bottom line is to make Pontiac into something more than a rebadged Chevy and make owning a Pontiac somthing different. Today owning anything but a Solstice or G8 is nothing but a Chevy with buck teeth. Sorry even the G6 is not as good as the present Malibu.

For right now I can't ans won't expect much as we will be lucky if there is a GM let alone a Pontiac. I still feel it is better top parek Pontiac for a couple years till GM can address them properly with a fresh start. Selling a G3 and the like just damages the name more than if they did not make it at all.

The bottom line is other than replacing my wifes GTP with a G8 in the future I am driving a Chevy as it gave me what I needed a small FWD that is well tuned and has more performance vs anything close Pontiac offered. My HHR SS will run circles around anything but the Solstice GXP or G8 V8.

Lets quite squaking about past history of the brand or old names. If they would just build a damn good performance car you could call it the Edsel 2 and people will buy it. Right now they

are not building very good performance cars and in some cases you can buy a better Chevy version for the same or less. [Note I have seen the Cobalt SS turbo advertised for $19K.]

If Pontiac offered a car comparable to:

Mini FWD [Delta 2 based]

WRX AWD [Delta 2]

Small sedan, hatch and Coupe with a Turbo 2.0 [Alpha]

Solstice [Alpha]

G8 in a coupe version [yes in the ST] [ down sized in the future but retained in RWD Enlarged Alpha?]

That is all they need. They do not need to be all things to all people just the best thing to those who want affordable world class performance.

The important thing is these all have to be shared with Holden, Opel, Saab or one other overseas division. If Pontiac is not a world brand it needs to be shared. None of the future NA division will be NA base and sold only. Pontiac will either have to sell world wide or be rebadged in other countries. The Middle East sales would be high as to my hunch.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree a little bit. To me Pontiac is all about styling. Look at say the 55 Pontiac-much more stylish and elegant than the 55 Chevy, and to me (a former 55 chevy owner) the 55 Chevy is one of GM's best ever designs...

Or look at the elegant wood dashboards of the 1960's GTO's vs. the plain jane Chevy dashboards.

Or look at the sorta overdone "disco Era' 1970's Grand Prix cars, the SJ and the SSJ and even the later Pontiacs.

Or look at the very well packaged later 3rd gen Firebirds, again a simplicity and elegance you just don't see in say an Iroc of the generation (and again, 3rd Gen Iroc another one of my fav. GM cars, and a future hopeful for my garage, but the Firebird is much more elegant.) I guess this is why I have always been so drawn to the 89 Firebird Indy Pace Car Replica with the Buick turbo V6-it seems to capture the essence of what is best about pontiac, upgraded styling and technologically driven performance.

I guess that's what I like about Tri-power, it was state of the art for say 62 or 64 and Pontiac jumped right in, took it and made it work pretty well.

Perhaps that's why I am such a Solstice fan-to me it symbolizes everything that is right about Pontiac. As does the G8-we have a member of our local VW TDI group who bashes American cars without mercy, who also belongs to the Mitsubishi owners group here in town. One of his female co-workers bought a G8 GT and he just can't stop raving about that car-he seems to be in a near sexual state of extacy when he's talking about how damn good the G8 is, and what a wonderful car it is. We've got another member who is like a walking VW encyclopedia, and is also a member of the local Buckeye Miata club with me. When we were talking about what we would have as a family car if we could afford any car on the planet, Eric, our Vw guru, spent the better part of dinner argueing that a G8 would be the ultimate family car.

I think the real essence of Pontiac is defined for me though in its heritage, esp. the 1940's and 1950's cars. To me, there is nothing from that Era that screams "drivers car' more loudly than Pontiac.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but I feel passionate about Pontiac.

Chris

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can really see a Pontiac Mini fighter...that would be an interesting design competition here.

However, again it can't be just performance, because the market for performance cars isn't that big, and you can't rely on performance cars alone to carry a brand.

Case in point, Solstice, Sky, Miata and Z4 were all selling about 1200 cars a month apiece before the economy went south, and now they are selling about 1200 cars a month combined.

Pontiac in its era was all about stylish cars for interesting people...why else would Major Healy drive one on I dream of Jeanie, or Fred McMurry drive one as the dad in My Three Sons? They cast the car perfectly to the charactor IMHO. When I was a kid, most of the people doing interesting things or trying different things drove Pontiacs. My dad's assistant drove a LeMans (same era as PCS car) and he rode his bike across Canada to raise money for charity.

I know I am rambling, but to me the essence of Pontiac is the creative spark of the people who drive them. Not only about performance...but also upgraded (more elegant than flashy) styling and about technology and saying your a different kind of person.

A Pontiac should never be dull. A dull Pontiac IMHO is as much of a sin as a Cadillac Cimmerson.

Chris

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Attitude in design, an outlaw spirit RE Corporate 'behavior' and a flurry of innovation moved mountains in Pontiac's storied past (plus- no apologies) - solid principals that could still work if led by a devoted individual.

>>"I guess that's what I like about Tri-power, it was state of the art for say 62 or 64 and Pontiac jumped right in, took it and made it work pretty well."<<

Just wanted to point out: Pontiac offered Tri-P starting in '57 (after offfering dual quads in '56), in additon to fuel injection. Granted, tech moved VERY fast in the '50s, but this is only 5 years after Cadillac went from a 2bbl to a 4bbl. Chevy, Olds, & Cadillac also offered 3x2s, but Pontiac ('57-66) became synonymous with it.

Edited by balthazar
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

balthazar, I coulpdn't agree more. Often, once things get to the point of unmanageable morass (think our current political and automotive culture) comes real reform, change, and growth. Perhaps the current climate of clusterf@@@ will push ineffective people out of the way and give someone like your talking about a chance to shine.

Chris

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A Pontiac should exude the essence of Pontiac's rebellious performance years. They should imply "I'm a sports car" not "I'm an economical plain family car". As such they should if possible be rwd, but that isn't strictly necessary. A mini has a suitable sporting image and yet remains fwd. The heritage of light-weight drilled, acid-dipped frames, powerful engines in relatively small cars, "wide-track" for better handling, "speed-lines" (not ribs) and racy styling that emphasizes the appearance of speed. Practicality should be high on the list of priorities, but not at the expense of handling, acceleration and braking. SUVs, vans, pickups and "station" wagons are therefore out, sedans, roadsters, coupes, hatchbacks, fastbacks and "sport" wagons are in.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rental car.

And I'm serious, the money isn't there to make a half decent Pontiac, the best strategy is to take previous gen Chevys, rebadge and fleet sale them like crazy. The 2009 G6 is basically a 2004 Malibu rebadge, this is what Pontiac should be. Then Chevy fleet sales can drop to zero, and save resale value.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rental car.

And I'm serious, the money isn't there to make a half decent Pontiac, the best strategy is to take previous gen Chevys, rebadge and fleet sale them like crazy. The 2009 G6 is basically a 2004 Malibu rebadge, this is what Pontiac should be. Then Chevy fleet sales can drop to zero, and save resale value.

1.) This is hypothetical, did you read the original post carefully?

2.) The G6 isn't a rebadge.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Besides, cars that have real residual value (CTS, Wrangler, Toyota 4 Runner, MINI, TDI Volkswagen, etc.) do so by being unique and having a fanbase.

If we want residual value, make the cars unique, limit production and have a fanbase.

Which brings up something else of value-Pontiac should not be a volume brand per se, leave that to Chevy. Pontiac should be more like BMW (but not copying it). Lower volume and Higher profit.

smk4565, what I don't like about your idea is that it would be higher volume and lower profit. We've seen how well that works, why not try something different?

Chris

Edited by 66Stang
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

G6 is a mechanical twin, and had the same radio/hvac console as the Malibu, it is close to a rebadge. It could work for rentals because it looks different than the Malibu, yet would still be cheap to produce. They fleeted the new Malibu at 37% in October (or September, I forget), it should be 5% or less.

If Pontiac was going to focus on low volume, they would have never made the G3 or G5 or Torrent, and the G6 would be in GXP trim only. In an ideal world with adequate funding, GM could do a lot of things with its brands, but with 19% market share and facing bankruptcy, they can't support 8 brands or make Pontiac a performance brand or Buick a Luxury brand or Saturn like VW, etc. The money doesn't exist.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Besides, cars that have real residual value (CTS, Wrangler, Toyota 4 Runner, MINI, TDI Volkswagen, etc.) do so by being unique and having a fanbase.

If we want residual value, make the cars unique, limit production and have a fanbase.

Which brings up something else of value-Pontiac should not be a volume brand per se, leave that to Chevy. Pontiac should be more like BMW (but not copying it). Lower volume and Higher profit.

smk4565, what I don't like about your idea is that it would be higher volume and lower profit. We've seen how well that works, why not try something different?

Chris

Finally someone is paying attention to the real needs!!

The plain fact is Pontiac needs to step out and build cars all car buyers would aspire to now just the hand full of leftover Trans Am or GP fans. The truth is there are few Pontiac fans left and more die everyday.

GM need to make this a perfromance car not relied on volume. It needs to be best in class. It needs to be something that appeals to the majortity.

Polarizing people with weird or oddd designs is ok for a strong company but a weak division of a weak company has to get it right.

If you want to save Potniac you need to let Pontiac become a new car in a new era. Living in the past has killed better car companies. Pontiac right now is much like the packard of the 40's and early 50's. It is a confused mess that tried too long to hang onto the past when the public moved on.

The people left Pontiac it was not Pontiac leaving them.

It may have not been a real cool thing to own a Pontiac since the 80's or 90's but going back to the formula of the 80's and 90's will not fix a car in todays market. You have to do better not only than the past Pontiacs but todays Nissan and Toyota's

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pontiac is the rebel...

Pontiac = anti

Pontiac is not RWD, Pontiac is not V8 and Pontiac is not strictly performance....

All Pontiac cars MUST have at least some performance attributes (You know, enough for them to qualify as performance cars) but the essence of Pontiac is rebellion and being everything that the average car is not.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Performance for the everyman...

Sporty, elegant, classy but not out of reach.

Widetrack

Split Grille

Performance designed IN not added on

BMW for those on the budget, or in many cases a thinking man's BMW :)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Machine X. Different from ANYTHING you've ever driven or have ridden in before. Deadly looks, dark soul. The kind of car that if a normal dad's daughters new bf was driving it he wouldn't like him. There cars should scream get the hell out of my way or get eaten alive. Use demonic names like Banshee as well.

Edited by deftonesfan867
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I sure like "deadly looks, dark soul" far better than 'BMW on a budget' :yuck: , sorry 68.

Agreed.

My favorite description so far.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Delorean and Bunkie were the only rebel Pontiac had.

Aztec was different from ANYTHING you've ever driven or have ridden in before. It also screamed but all the wrong things. So please many who are giving general terms like this it is best to be a little more specific. That is what many at Pontiac has missed in the last 25 years.

The bottom line is people want image and cool. They don't really care how cool the car looks they what to know how cool they look in it. That is what you need to attach to the car.

Large bird decals and lost odd scoops and flairs just don't work anymore. You need a Pontiac built in the image like the CTS.

The new CTS has some Caddy highlights but it is modern and looks like the car is pulled over the chassie. Look at one on the road the way the rear carefully flairs out and the way the tires will the wells are points that need to be put into a Pontiac.

We need to leave the past behind as we have lost several generations that are now getting into the buying age of these cars. They don't care what they have done in the past but what they look like today and how they make them look.

Looks are like power. Many may have 400 HP under the hood but few ever use 3/4 of it. Just having the power present a image. Looks do the same thing. It tells the others I cool and bad and I have power because this car makes me look good.

Your selling image and power. That is what otdays buyers want. I am sorry a G3 and G6 just don't have that image. Not even the GXP. The G8 is close but just needs a little more something and that is what someone needs to find.

Time to find a new image to replace widetack and you should not have to say excitment if they have seen the car.

Imagine a next gen G8 built a little smaller in the image of the Chevy SS show car of a few years back. low long and sleek. Autoweek even pointed out the new Lambo sedan was a near copy in ther Body double photo. Put a twin grill on it and let her rip. Imagine a sedan with Solstice curves and a low roof.

We need to pinpoint the new styling points that Pontiac needs to incorperate. Leave the old stuff out except for the grill or light tail lamp treatments.

Low roofs, large wheels filling the wells. tight body on chassie with little over hang. High body line on the side to add to the low look while giving better side protection. Styling should be tastfull not polarizing. No carry over Chevy body panels.

People buy BMW because Image, They buy Benz, Image, They buy Ferrari Because of the Performance Image Few are drive to there fullest. We need Pontiac to say something for the owner if he puts his money down.

We are not going to sell a ton of Pontiacs anymore as I jsut don't see the volume on a shrinking market. Play to its strength. Pontiac is no longer a Sunbird or Torrent company.

Edited by hyperv6
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Large bird decals and lost odd scoops and flairs just don't work anymore.

Where did anyone ask for those things ??

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator

Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   You have pasted content with formatting.   Remove formatting

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

Loading...