GM Studies Killing Saab, Saturn, Pontiac

[Robert Hall]

I have to agree. My last two, and next one, new car purchases have gone to Pontiac. I can't imagine ever buying a new Buick.

I couldn't see myself in a Buick either...though a Pontiac (G8) or a Cadillac (CTS) are both high on my list.

[Camino LS6]

There are only two realistic options for me at this point from GM. While that leaves out a great many good products, none of them come close enough to my requirements to make the list.

The first is obviously my sig car (truck), the G8ST.

A somehwat distant second is the Camaro SS. I love the car but have always tended to go for something a bit more unique. If I bought one, I would always feel like I had settled for something less than what I was after.

Nothing else is really on my personal radar.

[gm4life]

I have to agree. My last two, and next one, new car purchases have gone to Pontiac. I can't imagine ever buying a new Buick.

I totally agree, now the Enclave and Lucerne are nice though... I did consider an Enclave when I got my Torrent but it was a to pricey and a little larger than I wanted. That is why Pontiac must hang around, a little more BMW/Mini in the mix would be great for them.

[cmattson]

My chief problem with Pontiac is:

The G3, G5, G6, Torrent, Solstice and Vibe are ALL cheap knock-offs of vehicles that you can buy from other divisions (or Toyota).

What does Pontiac have that is unique to the US/Can market? The G8. 1 out of 7 vehicles. The G3 and G5 are totally mismatches for the market that Pontiac is supposed to target. Worse than that is that the G3 and G5 move the Pontiac brand identity in the EXACT opposite direction of the ideal Pontiac direction. These missteps take a DECADE of vehicles, press, and marketing to overcome. Don't believe me? Here's a preview of the yet-to-be-released 2012 Caddilac BLS that mentions the long-dead Caddilac Cimarron: http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com...adillac-bls.htm

Buick has the Enclave, the Lacrosse and the Lucerne. The Buick crossover is completely unnecessary with the combined BPG channel having access to the GMC Acadia - but given that mistake, at least the vehicles themselves fashion themselves after a psuedo-lux identity.

If one of them must go, my preference would be for Pontiac to survive and for Buick to fold.

Let's be practical: all decisions about GM's future must consider cost. GM doesn't have the luxury of deciding this any other way. Would it be cheaper to restore Buick's image or Pontiac's?

Edited December 4, 2008 by cmattson

[Camino LS6]

Disagree on the Solstice.

Yes, you can get a Sky (for now) but as much as I like that car, it should never have existed.

Much like Saturn itself.

I agree about the rest of the non-G8 lineup.

[thenewdamage]

I was in a Mercedes dealership this afternoon and the place was full of customers and busy employees.

I was in a Chevy and Cadillac car lot recently and both were dead silent. The same dealership also has a Hummer lot but use it for used cars now.

Ive been a Chevy and Buick guy all my life. I drive a Mercedes now. If GM had anything even halfway comparable I would be all over it.

[balthazar]

Haven't checked the new CTS out, then? It's much more than 'halfway comparable' to that class's mercedes.

[BuddyP]

Disagree on the Solstice.

Yes, you can get a Sky (for now) but as much as I like that car, it should never have existed.

Much like Saturn itself.

I agree about the rest of the non-G8 lineup.

Just that the Sky is the better looking of the two, more agressive front end and nicer looking interior. Just like Saturn got the better looking G6 (Aura)

[ocnblu]

Yup, the Solstice is the better looking of the two roadsters, with its pure Pontiac look, it is sensuous, romantic and sporty, what a small sports car should be... seductive. The upcoming Solstice coupe is one of the best looking cars ever to wear the arrowhead, imo. And the G6 has stood up well, with a unique coupe and hardtop convertible bodystyle, the Aura cannot match it for style. Edited December 5, 2008 by ocnblu

[CARBIZ]

Saturns sold well when they were actually unique and better than typical GM crap. I miss my old dent resistant Spring Hill built SL2, but I have no interest in the imported Opel rebadges. I will likely never purchase another GM vehicle.

Maybe you should learn to drive better. I've never worried about dents or rust in any cars I've owned.

[Robert Hall]

Maybe you should learn to drive better. I've never worried about dents or rust in any cars I've owned.

Dents can happen through other means than driving. I've recieved dents due to runaway shopping carts, people that park too close and open their doors poorly, etc. Reality is complex.

[Chicagoland]

Saturns didnt dent, but they still broke down. And most GM vehicles from the 90's are still running and outlasted Saturns. A Chevy pickup, van, B body, or any 3800 V6 car can go well over 200K miles. The 91-95 SL's are almost extinct, so the 'crap' comment is false.

[Z-06]

The only reason why Saturn existed after 2004-5 was because of its executive's strong push from keeping the brand from being euthanized. The idea of Saturn at the time of conceptualization was brilliant but had turd products, then they "revitalized" the products but lost the idea in translation. Had GM gotten both right if not at the first time but somewhere in middle from then and 2005, Saturn would have made business sense today.

The Sky should have gone to Chevy where it would have made decent dent. Many people still do not know what that vehicle is despite being a better looking vehicle than the solstice.

[AAS]

Maybe you should learn to drive better. I've never worried about dents or rust in any cars I've owned.

It's not about the `driving' part, it's in `parking' that dent resistant panels are more appealing. I'm glad my Camaro has plastic (or whatever) door skins and front fenders. Who knows how many morons have hit them in a parking lot...

[CARBIZ]

Still, my point is - where do you guys drive? I live in downtown Toronto and park in all kinds of nasty places and I have one tiny nick on my door in 16 months! A nick that our paint guy can fix in a jiffy for free.

Do Americans practice demolition derbies at the Mall?

[Chicagoland]

I agree, all my steel cars have had small nicks, but not enough that I wish for plastic panels. Besides, it is a waste of non renewable materials. I am willing to bet most junked Saturns' plastic panels end up in landfills.

[Robert Hall]

Still, my point is - where do you guys drive? I live in downtown Toronto and park in all kinds of nasty places and I have one tiny nick on my door in 16 months! A nick that our paint guy can fix in a jiffy for free.

Do Americans practice demolition derbies at the Mall?

Wind blows loose shopping carts across mall/Target/etc parking lots. Sloppy parkers park too close in parking lots or parking garages. Stones/gravel/etc get kicked up on roads by large trucks, etc. Wind whips up grit, etc that chips the front of the hood, windshield, etc. After 8 years, I have plenty of small nicks and scratches on my Jeep from the world...

Edited December 5, 2008 by moltar

[vt_hokie]

Saturns didnt dent, but they still broke down. And most GM vehicles from the 90's are still running and outlasted Saturns. A Chevy pickup, van, B body, or any 3800 V6 car can go well over 200K miles.

I put 220,000 miles on my 1997 SL2 with no major problems. And the body was still in great shape at the end, thanks to the plastic panels! Like I said, GM earned my business by doing something right and creating Saturn, but I will likely never buy a GM car again. And I really don't want my tax dollars going to support a failed company with inept management, so that GM can keep wasting money on muscle cars and SUV's.

[Robert Hall]

I put 220,000 miles on my 1997 SL2 with no major problems. And the body was still in great shape at the end, thanks to the plastic panels! Like I said, GM earned my business by doing something right and creating Saturn, but I will likely never buy a GM car again. And I really don't want my tax dollars going to support a failed company with inept management, so that GM can keep wasting money on muscle cars and SUV's.

Meh...you do realize some of us do buy performance cars and SUVs (and luxury cars). Not everyone wants or buys economy cars...GM has to build a broad range of models, to support a variety of consumers.

Edited December 5, 2008 by moltar

[haypops]

In defense of VT hokie, I don't think he is arguing against performance or SUV vehicles, but rather he is upset that he can no longer purchase what he found to be to his liking. My experiences with Saturn are similar to his, my conclusion about other GM vehicles much different.

[BuddyP]

Yup, the Solstice is the better looking of the two roadsters, with its pure Pontiac look, it is sensuous, romantic and sporty, what a small sports car should be... seductive. The upcoming Solstice coupe is one of the best looking cars ever to wear the arrowhead, imo. And the G6 has stood up well, with a unique coupe and hardtop convertible bodystyle, the Aura cannot match it for style.

This is the part of multiple brands that I like... each has his/her own taste in styling. While I really like the styling of the Solstice, I like the Sky a bit better. And while I like the G6, I find the Aura not only better looking but trimmed out nicer as well.... hence why we bought the Aura vs a G6 (we initially were going to get a G6 GT).

[vt_hokie]

In defense of VT hokie, I don't think he is arguing against performance or SUV vehicles, but rather he is upset that he can no longer purchase what he found to be to his liking. My experiences with Saturn are similar to his, my conclusion about other GM vehicles much different.

I guess I'm just bitter because Lutz comes in and obviously his passion lies in performance cars like the GTO, G8, Camaro, etc. But he not only focuses on those, but talks down the economy cars like the Saturn S Series, which hit sales of something like 280,000 per year at its peak. He had made disparaging remarks about the polymer panels among other things. I resent multi-millionare execs telling us what we should want, instead of listening to us tell them what we want. I don't make $50 million a year, and I do care about longevity, and I appreciate things like a reliable, affordable car with good mileage and body construction that resists door dings, rust, etc.

I also care about supporting manufacturing jobs here within the U.S. I don't want to buy a GM car built in Mexico or China. Maybe if more people cared about preserving our manufacturing base and maintaining a strong middle class, we wouldn't be in the mess we're currently in!

Edited December 5, 2008 by vt_hokie

[Robert Hall]

Interesting that the polymer panels never found wide adoption outside of GM.

[saturnd00d]

Though the s-series cars were never truly refined in the way they should have been, I think if GM didn't starve Saturn of the money it needed during it's peak, it would have been a far superior car to the imports in today's times, and the division as a whole would have looked alot better on paper than it currently does.

Unfortunately, GM fan or not, I can't help but have a bad taste in my mouth from the crap GM has been feeding us over the years. Trucks and niche cars aside, Saturn was among the best to come from the General in a long time because it offered different thinking, different direction and for a time, was actually drawing in import buyers away from them. I admired what it stood for, and I admired backing up a company that actually invited me to test drive their newest cars knowing I wouldn't buy one. They treated me like more than just a notch in the dealership's belt. They washed my car, took extra caution to not get y car dirty during service, offered me tips and advice when I asked for it, and always with a smile. Can't say that when we brought my dad's 98 C/K in for service at our local chevy dealership, nor when we brought his 84 Chevy Van in before that.

We have been a GM family since my parents immigrated to Canada, but until I bought my first Saturn, we never truly had a rewarding dealership experience. Shame really.

I've actually gained a bit of respect for Ford in the last couple years, whereas I used to despise them and their products. If they survive, they just might get the next sale if for whatever reason I don't go with a used Astra.

Edited December 5, 2008 by saturnd00d

[Croc]

Lutz didn't kill the S-series. Saturn did that to themselves with the ION.

[vt_hokie]

Lutz didn't kill the S-series. Saturn did that to themselves with the ION.

The ION was a disaster. I don't know who decided that Saturn buyers wanted cute, feminine cars with extremely weird styling. I guess they were going for some alternative marketing thing of the sort that worked for Macintosh. But it wasn't done right with Saturn. The circle theme evident in the exterior and interior styling of the first ION reminded me of the equally disastrous oval themed Ford Taurus redesign in 1996.

Add in crappy quality and one of the cheapest feeling interiors in its class, at a time when you had nice upscale small cars like the Mazda 3 about to hit the market, and it didn't stand a chance. But polymer panels weren't the reason people stopped buying Saturns. On the contrary, it was one of the unique features that defined Saturn and made it stand out. I think sales of the VUE remained high until they replaced the first gen model with that cutesy Mexican built thing. The division is pointless if it's just going to sell a slightly different flavor of Chevys.

Edited December 5, 2008 by vt_hokie

[saturnd00d]

I wouldn't call the ION a disaster. In fact, they sold decently well (of course not as good as the S-series) because they offered good powertrains, still retained polymer and were offered at a great price. The fact that you could have bought an ION 1 with crank windows, and pretty much none of the fancy-shmancies was great for the target demographic. Those being the fans of cheap and economical cars.

I owned an ION 3 and although it wasn't as stylish as a Mazda 3, it never had any failing tranny mount problems. In fact, the only issue I had with mine, was the ignition module which was replaced under warranty.

With that said, I love the Astra. I know it's an Opel and not a Saturn, but it's a car that fits my needs as a secondary vehicle down the road. It'll most likely be the last GM product I buy, whether GM survives or not. I've had enough of this company. They used to be great, but they've lost that passion long ago. I just don't see why I should buy anything from them if all they care about is making the best damn mid-size or full size sedan, truck or performance coupe. Where's the small-car segment they need to fill? This is their biggest vulnerability. They got it right elsewhere in the world, but not here. So the way I see it, if they want to provide us with crappy small cars, they don't deserve any more of my coin.

Edited December 5, 2008 by saturnd00d

[Camino LS6]

I think you will be seeing the small cars you are asking for, but they may not wear the Saturn badge.

[VenSeattle]

I think you will be seeing the small cars you are asking for, but they may not wear the Saturn badge.

Give Pontiac the next-gen Delta II Opel Astra family (sedan, coupe, convertible, and wagon) while giving Buick the SAAB 9-3 Delta II family...

[haypops]

I think you will be seeing the small cars you are asking for, but they may not wear the Saturn badge.

The cruize (sp) sounds first class. I wish that it, instead of the Volt was being rushed to production. I felt that way before the precipitous drop in gasoline prices too. I understand everyone's excitement about the volt, but I just see it differently.

[Camino LS6]

The cruize (sp) sounds first class. I wish that it, instead of the Volt was being rushed to production. I felt that way before the precipitous drop in gasoline prices too. I understand everyone's excitement about the volt, but I just see it differently.

They ride the same platform, and will basically arrive together.

[vt_hokie]

I think you will be seeing the small cars you are asking for, but they may not wear the Saturn badge.

Or have durable plastic body panels instead of easily dented thin sheetmetal.

[saturnd00d]

I can deal with not having polymer, but the Cruze does nothing for me. It seems overly styled, almost as if chevy tried too hard. The volt looks great, but it's way over my budget. To be honest, unless something gives, I can't see myself being a GM fan/customer past my future Astra purchase, and even that depends on if Astras are easy or hard to find at the time.

[thenewdamage]

Haven't checked the new CTS out, then? It's much more than 'halfway comparable' to that class's mercedes.

Actually I had been shopping for several months for a CTS when I saw how depressed Mercedes prices were due to gas prices. The only other import I have ever owned was a '72 Toyota when I couldnt afford anything better. That was a long time ago.

I have a beautiful low mileage Maui Blue '90 Reatta in the driveway and recently gave my Corvette to my youngest son and my Fiero GT to the oldest son. I had a Blazer (total POS) and 2 El Caminos ('68 & '72) before that. My first car was a new '75 Chevy LUV (my dad sold Chevys).

I drove the CTS and I hate to say it but it just doesnt stack up. Yes I know it is apples and oranges as far as handling, performance etc. But I am talking about obviously differences in the quality of manufacturing and the fit and finish. I want GM to succeed. I hope they choose to survive.

[Croc]

Not knowing what CTS you test drove, but the fit and finish in it is head and shoulders above anything Mercedes offers. I drove a Mercedes for a few years, and it was quite the POS with interior trim falling off or popping out. The engines aren't that great either...ours was always getting the spark plugs replaced on an almost annual basis.

[ellives]

Also depends on which generation of CTS we're talking about. The current product is world class in almost every respect.

Not knowing what CTS you test drove, but the fit and finish in it is head and shoulders above anything Mercedes offers. I drove a Mercedes for a few years, and it was quite the POS with interior trim falling off or popping out. The engines aren't that great either...ours was always getting the spark plugs replaced on an almost annual basis.

[regfootball]

I can deal with not having polymer, but the Cruze does nothing for me. It seems overly styled, almost as if chevy tried too hard. The volt looks great, but it's way over my budget. To be honest, unless something gives, I can't see myself being a GM fan/customer past my future Astra purchase, and even that depends on if Astras are easy or hard to find at the time.

x2 on a future astra purchase. i hope it isn't a buick. i could handle a pontiac or saturn badge on it. cruze is too daewoo for my tastes even though its a big upgrade over the cobalt.

Edited December 6, 2008 by regfootball

[balthazar]

>>"The only other import I have ever owned was a '72 Toyota..."<<

>>"My first car was a new '75 Chevy LUV..."<<

Ummm....

-- -- -- -- --

The question of 1st gen CTS vs. 2nd is very appropriate, tho still individual tastes vary...

[The O.C.]

Also depends on which generation of CTS we're talking about. The current product is world class in almost every respect.

I'm one that is a strong supporter of the previous gen CTS.

Mine is an '07 with already 40,000 miles on it....and it has been absolutely the best car I've ever owned from a quality and reliability standpoint.....and that includes other domestics and imports.

The interior materials and design may be a far reach from today's CTS....but in terms of actual fit-and-finish, my old-gen CTS is practically flawless. Nothing has ever fallen off, there are absolutely no squeaks or rattles inside the car, and the plastics (lesser-quality they may seem) have held up like new. Everything fits too. In fact, my buttons on the center stack haven't even had the white paint that makes up the letters/numbers wear away (something that has been known to happen with older CTSs.)

Also, my car is as tight and squeak/rattle free in structure as the day I drove it home for the first time.

Finally, in regards to problems....I've had exactly two in 40,000 miles.....my back-up lamps went out, and I had one tire-pressure monitor that went bad. That's it.

So maybe I was a lucky one.....and got a lucky car.....but if other consumers have similar experiences with their old CTSs, that speaks volumes for future potential customer loyalty.

[smk4565]

Not knowing what CTS you test drove, but the fit and finish in it is head and shoulders above anything Mercedes offers. I drove a Mercedes for a few years, and it was quite the POS with interior trim falling off or popping out. The engines aren't that great either...ours was always getting the spark plugs replaced on an almost annual basis.

Not the S-class. The S-class is engineered better than any domestic car.

Mercedes for a while in the late 90s, early 2000s, lost that engineering commitment, but it is coming back now. I wouldn't buy an M-B, but probably nothing under $100k is engineered better.

[balthazar]

Friend of mine hates his S-class (haven't talked to him in a while- no doubt he dumped it by now). It was a circa '04. The entire front suspension collapsed and had to be replaced, and he was waiting on some electronic gizmo for 6 or 8 months. He was disgusted. When I looked it over one day, some of the exterior rear trim was misaligned. His S-class pushed him into repeat loaded Tahoe ownership.

It's overrated and still riding on outmoded perception, IMO.

[Robert Hall]

Friend of mine hates his S-class (haven't talked to him in a while- no doubt he dumped it by now). It was a circa '04. The entire front suspension collapsed and had to be replaced, and he was waiting on some electronic gizmo for 6 or 8 months. He was disgusted. When I looked it over one day, some of the exterior rear trim was misaligned. His S-class pushed him into repeat loaded Tahoe ownership.

It's overrated and still riding on outmoded perception, IMO.

I think the current generation (W221) has improved a lot..the '00-06 (W220) generation had a LOT of problems, not as solid and vault like as the older W126 and W140 generations. Mercedes tried to cheapen their cars (I've read they started building to cost rather than no expenses spared engineering in the mid to late '90s, and it hurt them).

A friend of mine's Dad had an '00 S class, lots of problems...replaced it with an '04 BMW 7-series--lots of problems (iDrive, etc). He drives an '07 STS now.

Went to PetSmart last night for dog food, etc and parted nose-to-nose with a new (W221) S-class...my old W140 is so much taller in the front, the big square grille compared to sleek low nose of the new one..interesting how the design evolved over the generations.

Edited December 8, 2008 by moltar

[HarleyEarl]

Getting back to the Saturn/Saab/Pontiac thing.

With GM recently showing faith in Pontiac,

I read somewhere that the new Opel Insignia could be

rebadged a Pontiac over here.

I wonder if Saturn will be given the axe and

Pontiac willl take over with the Opel connection

instead?

[Robert Hall]

Getting back to the Saturn/Saab/Pontiac thing.

With GM recently showing faith in Pontiac,

I read somewhere that the new Opel Insignia could be

rebadged a Pontiac over here.

I wonder if Saturn will be given the axe and

Pontiac willl take over with the Opel connection

instead?

Who knows...I could see the Insignia possibly as a G6, but wasn't it supposed to be an Aura? Hopefully, they will keep a G6 coupe...since it's the only Epsilon coupe GM has.

[balthazar]

Anyone else see the historic-thru-today Opel experiment just isn't working ?

In other words, a badge-jobbed Opel Pontiac is not raising my hopes any.

[turbo200]

historical presedence just doesn't work in this case. the quality product that opel is producing today has yet to be funneled through a proven distribution system. saturn is not a testbed for opel's success. i would love to see a new astra with some pontiac specific sheetmetal. that being said, given pontiac's current circumstances, simply rebadging the current opel astra opc would be a huge improvement.

[turbo200]

don't forget we were previewed a version of an insignia coupe, already bearing more than a resemblance to G6....

[thegriffon]

Aside from the Corsa, I think you'll see most Opels being badged as Buicks in the US rather than Pontiacs, including the Astra.

[AAS]

Aside from the Corsa, I think you'll see most Opels being badged as Buicks in the US rather than Pontiacs, including the Astra.

That's a bummer... I could almost see myself driving a Saturn Astra, but definitely not a Buick "Astra." Nothing agains Buick, I really like my mom's Enclave, but it just doesn't seem to fit.

[ZL-1]

That's a bummer... I could almost see myself driving a Saturn Astra, but definitely not a Buick "Astra." Nothing agains Buick, I really like my mom's Enclave, but it just doesn't seem to fit.

But the next Astra will borrow many styling cues from the Insignia, which is a curvy-er design that translated well (IMHO) into the Chinese Buick Regal. So who knows? The NG might work out just fine as a Buick.

Edited December 8, 2008 by ZL-1