Third Time's The Charm? Cadillac Returns To Europe

[pow]

So an XTS with an efficient and clean diesel sold in EU would be right up your alley then?

Audi is already selling a ton of FWD sedans in the EU now. The XTS diesel with oh, I dunno X-Wheel Drive available would fit right in to what Europeans expect.

Don't discount the new A6 just because it comes standard with FWD. It has an aluminum intensive body, longitudinally mounted engine, and 55/45% weight distribution -- a very different animal from Epsilon II. And if the XTS were theoretically to come with a small diesel, it'd share the unit from the 9-5, which just isn't as good as the "world-class" (sorry) A6's. It's less powerful, slower, emits more, and consumes more.

A longitudinal engine in a FWD car (ala Audi and Subaru) is actually more a liability than an advantage. It pushes the weight balance further forward than a transverse layout. In Audi's case they do it for the convenience of integrating AWD because the transfer case because integral and inline with the output shaft of the tranny.

The Epsilon is a fine enough platform. The problem GM has is the groany, unrefined note of the 3.6 DI V6 and the acceptable by below average 6T70 (and 6T75) transmissions. Personally, I don't see the XTS as a flagship, but an ES350 competitor. It should have been a Buick, but the notion of a large, transverse V6 powered, FWD/AWD cruiser or the comfort oriented buyer is not a bad one. But regardless of what the Greenies think, transverse V6 with out without Hybrid assist is not really the gold standard (or the upcoming one in the ear future) for flagship luxury. Caddy deserves and can be well served by a stretched Sigma II with a 7.2 V12 option created by Siameing two 3.6 V6es and a quiet tuned Pushrod small block V8 as the standard power plant. If they want to add a V6 Hybrid to the mix, that's fine, but that will be the niche not the V8 powered car... let's face it, there are not that many Prius drivers upgrading to a Flagship Luxury car (S-class, 7-series, A8 or whatever Caddy has), and those pitiful few will probably buy a Lexus LS600h.

A longitudinal layout allows for proactive, permanent AWD rather than a reactive Haldex system limited by its angle gear.

And since we're talking about Europe here, the idea of a pushrod V8 or a 7.2 liter V12 as the high-volume powertrain is laughable. They could perhaps build one for Jeremy Clarkson to review, but the rest sold will be 30 MPG diesels. Even in the US where oil is subsidized, the six-cylinder 740i outsells the V8 750i.

[Drew Dowdell]

This is a thread where I'll be happy to be wrong, however, I still think Cadillac isn't going to make headway into Europe any time soon..... and I don't think the XTS will have anything to do with it. Neither the CTS nor ATS will sell either.

[dwightlooi]

A longitudinal layout allows for proactive, permanent AWD rather than a reactive Haldex system limited by its angle gear.

And since we're talking about Europe here, the idea of a pushrod V8 or a 7.2 liter V12 as the high-volume powertrain is laughable. They could perhaps build one for Jeremy Clarkson to review, but the rest sold will be 30 MPG diesels. Even in the US where oil is subsidized, the six-cylinder 740i outsells the V8 750i.

Actually, oil is NOT subsidized in the US, we just don't artificially inflate the price of oil. Oil is 2.5 times more expensive in the EU simply because it is taxed there for reasons ranging from the bogus believe in global warming or the need to artificially accelerate the transition to alternative sources.

BTW, there is no gasoline six cylinder S-class or 7-series in the US. A Caddy flagship is not going to be a volume seller no matter what. Caddy's fortunes will be made or broken with the CTS and ATS. It is more important that the Flagship car be distinguished as a flagship -- something to elevate the marque but not necessarily bring in the sales volume. A diesel nay not be a bad idea for EU, but not some weezy V6 diesel. Perhaps a 6.6 liter Duramax Pushrod-32v V8 with 400 bhp and 770 lb-ft (1043 Nm) of torque matted to a 6-speed Allison tranny. If not anything, that will have undeniable character.

Edited March 26, 2011 by dwightlooi

[Drew Dowdell]

1.5 trillion to "Liberate Afghanistan Iraq Libya who's next?"

[Camino LS6]

A Duramax Caddy - doesn't Obama ride around in one?

[smk4565]

This is a thread where I'll be happy to be wrong, however, I still think Cadillac isn't going to make headway into Europe any time soon..... and I don't think the XTS will have anything to do with it. Neither the CTS nor ATS will sell either.

I agree that the CTS and XTS won't sell in Europe. Haven't seen the ATS yet, but odds are it won't. But Cadillac isn't going to survive over the long haul being 4th place in the U.S., 5th place in China, and near non-existent in every other country. They need to figure out how to become global, or risk turning into Lincoln in 10 years.

[William Maley]

BTW, there is no gasoline six cylinder S-class or 7-series in the US.

BMW USA would like to disagree with you...

[bobo]

And the MB S400 is a mild hybrid V6.

[smk4565]

Mercedes and BMW offer V6 flagships, but the difference is they also offer twin-turbo V12s also. The difference is Cadillac is content to use V6 only in their sedans, except for a low volume CTS-V.

The real problem facing Cadillac going to Europe, is Cadillac can't beat the Germans (or Lexus) in the USA, and Cadillacs are designed specifically for the American market. So how do they make a global car that can beat them in the USA, and at least compete over there.

[balthazar]

The fact that there's a V-12 option in an s-class ("that nobody buys") is immaterial to the s-class V-6 buyer.

In other words, no s-class V-6 buyer cares 1 iota that there's a gas-sucking V-12 available- it's not what they're shopping for, and they're not going to 'trade up' to one later. For the V-6 buyer, the V-12 might as well not exist.

Unless they are so unbelievably superficial to think a passerby might think they have a V-12 car, when mercedees simplistically insists on naming all their cars after engine displacement- it's of no consequence.

It's a segment unto itself: big full-size sedans with moderate/adequate power/economy/performance -- V-12s are a super sub-niche catering to a different buyer.

So a TT V6 XTS would absolutely -on the basis of engine/power- compete with a V-6 and similar output V-8 s-class models- where the vast bulk of s-class sales are.

[dwightlooi]

BTW, there is no gasoline six cylinder S-class or 7-series in the US.

BMW USA would like to disagree with you...

I stand corrected then! I was mislead by the nomenclature of 740i instead of 735i, and had mistakenly thought that the 740i is a 4.4 V8 perhaps absent the 750i's twin turbos

Edited March 27, 2011 by dwightlooi

[dwightlooi]

The fact that there's a V-12 option in an s-class ("that nobody buys") is immaterial to the s-class V-6 buyer.

In other words, no s-class V-6 buyer cares 1 iota that there's a gas-sucking V-12 available- it's not what they're shopping for, and they're not going to 'trade up' to one later. For the V-6 buyer, the V-12 might as well not exist.

Unless they are so unbelievably superficial to think a passerby might think they have a V-12 car, when mercedees simplistically insists on naming all their cars after engine displacement- it's of no consequence.

It's a segment unto itself: big full-size sedans with moderate/adequate power/economy/performance -- V-12s are a super sub-niche catering to a different buyer.

So a TT V6 XTS would absolutely -on the basis of engine/power- compete with a V-6 and similar output V-8 s-class models- where the vast bulk of s-class sales are.

Actually, I beg to differ on two premises.

(1) That the existence of the S600 does not lend exclusivity and perceived stature to the S-class is probably untrue. No, the V6 buyer probably will never trade up to a V12. But the V12 makes the S-class a more prestigious S-class as opposed to say a Avalon or a Genesis. This is especially true of Cadillac -- a brand which currently lacks the same degree of recognition compared to the Teutonic marques. It is probably also why neither M-B or BMW has axed their S600s and 760s.

(2) The other notion that is suspect is that of a twin turbo V6 being substantially or at all more economical than a Pushrod V8 of similar output. One has to but look at the 6.2 liter Camaro (16/25 mpg) or Corvette (16/26 mpg), and compare that to others car in the 400~450hp class with twin turbo six cylinder power or turbo V8s of substantially lower displacement (eg. 4.4 liters). At best you'll see a 1 mpg deficit, sometimes the big V8 is actually more economical.

Speaking of volume, if that is what Cadillac is after with the XTS, then the target should not be the S-class. It should be the ES350. This means a $40~45K price tag, spacious interiors and refinement, free of the burden of being a flagship. Again, IMHO, this should be a model for Buick.

[Lamar]

Speaking of volume, if that is what Cadillac is after with the XTS, then the target should not be the S-class. It should be the ES350. This means a $40~45K price tag, spacious interiors and refinement, free of the burden of being a flagship. Again, IMHO, this should be a model for Buick.

THIS RIGHT HERE.

[balthazar]

Actually, I beg to differ on two premises.

(1) That the existence of the S600 does not lend exclusivity and perceived stature to the S-class is probably untrue. No, the V6 buyer probably will never trade up to a V12. But the V12 makes the S-class a more prestigious S-class as opposed to say a Avalon or a Genesis.

Obviously, there's room for interpretation of the intangible.

However, I maintain that when it comes down to signing the bottom line, any 'V12 perception' is only bringing in a literal handful of V6 / V8 buyers.

And with the bulk of sales in the mid-range (V8s)- I still question if MB would sell any appreciable amount less V6/V8 s-class, if there were no V12 model.

That aside, I see no reason a competitor could not target the segment that does buy the V6/V8 models by themselves (assuming the business case for doing so is there).

[dwightlooi]

Actually, I beg to differ on two premises.

(1) That the existence of the S600 does not lend exclusivity and perceived stature to the S-class is probably untrue. No, the V6 buyer probably will never trade up to a V12. But the V12 makes the S-class a more prestigious S-class as opposed to say a Avalon or a Genesis.

Obviously, there's room for interpretation of the intangible.

However, I maintain that when it comes down to signing the bottom line, any 'V12 perception' is only bringing in a literal handful of V6 / V8 buyers.

And with the bulk of sales in the mid-range (V8s)- I still question if MB would sell any appreciable amount less V6/V8 s-class, if there were no V12 model.

That aside, I see no reason a competitor could not target the segment that does buy the V6/V8 models by themselves (assuming the business case for doing so is there).

Perhaps, perhaps not, but the XTS does not even have a V8. The notion of a V6 "only" flagship is dubious, turbos not withstanding. The notion of a Transverse FWD platform based flagship is doubly dubious, hybrid drive train not withstanding.

Edited March 27, 2011 by dwightlooi

[Croc]

A longitudinal layout allows for proactive, permanent AWD rather than a reactive Haldex system limited by its angle gear.

And since we're talking about Europe here, the idea of a pushrod V8 or a 7.2 liter V12 as the high-volume powertrain is laughable. They could perhaps build one for Jeremy Clarkson to review, but the rest sold will be 30 MPG diesels. Even in the US where oil is subsidized, the six-cylinder 740i outsells the V8 750i.

Actually, oil is NOT subsidized in the US, we just don't artificially inflate the price of oil. Oil is 2.5 times more expensive in the EU simply because it is taxed there for reasons ranging from the bogus believe in global warming

I stopped reading after the emphasized text. Seriously, if you want to have any credibility please don't spout nonsense. If you're not familiar with the science, fine, but don't conflate ignorance with being right because global warming (now really called climate change because the effects go far beyond a warming of the planet) is real and indisputable by pretty much anyone with a grasp of science.

[ocnblu]

You're no authority on the subject, Croc. And "the science" is contradictory.

[Croc]

You're no authority on the subject, Croc. And "the science" is contradictory.

No, I'm not an "authority," I'm just informed. The science (notice the lack of quotation marks) also isn't contradictory in the least--there are large-scale weather changes happening across the globe with stronger, more violent, more extreme weather. And it coincides pretty well with the imbalance in atmospheric carbon resulting from the industrial revolution. And the best proof that this is correlation and not just coincidence is that the models are accurately making predictions of the future.

[ocnblu]

You've been there... the future, I mean? You shall heretofore be known as "Marty McFly" on these boards.

[Croc]

You've been there... the future, I mean? You shall heretofore be known as "Marty McFly" on these boards.

When models anticipated climate events years and months ago that happened, for example, yesterday, well that's validating the future predictive ability of the existing models.

[Potluck]

I'm not a climatologist and I'll leave that to the three experts already posting, however, the EU has been taxing fuel outragiously since before climate change became fashionable, so you can't blame the taxes in the EU mostly on the greenies.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Potluck

[Croc]

I'm not a climatologist and I'll leave that to the three experts already posting, however, the EU has been taxing fuel outragiously since before climate change became fashionable, so you can't blame the taxes in the EU mostly on the greenies.

Oh no doubt there. The EU has ridiculously high taxes on fuel. Their collective public policies favor transit. Their cities were built around transit.

[ocnblu]

"Fashionable" is a good word.

[pow]

A longitudinal layout allows for proactive, permanent AWD rather than a reactive Haldex system limited by its angle gear.

And since we're talking about Europe here, the idea of a pushrod V8 or a 7.2 liter V12 as the high-volume powertrain is laughable. They could perhaps build one for Jeremy Clarkson to review, but the rest sold will be 30 MPG diesels. Even in the US where oil is subsidized, the six-cylinder 740i outsells the V8 750i.

Actually, oil is NOT subsidized in the US, we just don't artificially inflate the price of oil. Oil is 2.5 times more expensive in the EU simply because it is taxed there for reasons ranging from the bogus believe in global warming

I stopped reading after the emphasized text. Seriously, if you want to have any credibility please don't spout nonsense. If you're not familiar with the science, fine, but don't conflate ignorance with being right because global warming (now really called climate change because the effects go far beyond a warming of the planet) is real and indisputable by pretty much anyone with a grasp of science.

Facts and scientific consensus are bogus when they threaten imaginary 7.2 liter V12s with theoretical specifications. It's the internet.

[ocnblu]

There is no full consensus. There is no proof that man is to blame for this latest adjustment. And there is no way we can stop climate change. We are fleas on a dog's back.

And European cities were built around Roman chariots, not "transit".

[Drew Dowdell]

There are two sides the the global warming argument: Those from scientists and those from scientists funded by Exxon.

That said, back to Cadillac going for strike three in Europe.

[Robert Hall]

Diesel ATS and CTS with available manuals and wagons will be key to Cadillac gaining any market share in Europe, I think.

[hyperv6]

There is no full consensus. There is no proof that man is to blame for this latest adjustment. And there is no way we can stop climate change. We are fleas on a dog's back.

And European cities were built around Roman chariots, not "transit".

Global warming is nothing new.

Arctic Ocean Getting Warm; Seals Vanish and Icebergs Melt.

Washington Post-----The Arctic ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from Consul Ifft, at Bergen, Norway.

Reports from fishermen, seal hunters and explorers, he declared, all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard-of temperatures in the Arctic zone. Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been met with as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes. Soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters showed the gulf stream still very warm.

Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and stones, the report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely disappeared. Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast shoals of herring and smelts, which have never before ventured so far north, are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds.

A Washington, D.C. resident John Lockwood was conducting research at the Library of Congress and came across an intriguing headline in the Nov. 2, 1922 edition of The Washington Post

Neither side can prove it is true or false at this point. Even those who really are at the top of the field of climate can't agree. We have only tracked weather records for a little over 100 years on earth so we have little to draw from for long term changes. We also can use some historic accounts and ships records to learn more but that is very limited. The earth has been in flux for millions of years and has been effected by natural actions as well by actions of every living thing. I agree we are like feas along for the ride.

The one thing does make me question the warming claims of some are the fact some have made a major industry of Global Warming. People are now making a lot of money off this like GE, the Carbon Trading Exchange etc. Some involved are Al Gore and other prominate names in goverment and industry.

I learned of Maurice F. Strong long ago and find him someone that many should really learn more about. Here is a man who globalized the eviromental movment now a Billionaire hiding in China. Why? I don't know if he is hiding from the UN Oil-for-Food scandal or what else he is into now.

I am not going to say that warming is false as it they may be right. But there are still a lot of things that need to be questioned and answers given on both sides of the argument.

[Drew Dowdell]

As I said... back to Cadillac failing in Europe.

[hyperv6]

Now back to GM and Cadillac in Europe.

I have one question as for Europe. What GM North American car outside the limited success of the Corvette has done well in Europe?

I was just running through cars that GM has sold there over the years and I find few that have done well FWD, RWD etc. I know Hummers H2 and H3 were popular for a while. There have been limited exports of the Camaro over the years. I saw a 4th gen export car here in Ohio not long ago.

In the past the older Fleetwoods Limos and a few other older cars did ok but I really can't think of any real hits for GM in Europe other than some trucks, vans and the new Cruze that really is a global car. Anything GM has really done well with is Opel or Vauxhall.

The only reason Ford has done well is they have been there a long time with Ford of Europe and amount to just being another Euro car in the eyes of the public there.

Getting Cadillac to be profitable is the key and not so much volume. To sell any GM car in Europe that is not a global car is going to be a challange.

This is where China has been easy. They are selling to a public that many have just moved from a Mule to a car. Also the local cars are not anything to compare to even the worst cars we have had here.

Lets see if we can name list of the cars GM has exported well, the numbers they sold in and length of time they sold well over there. I think it would be interesting to see just what GM has done in the past as what it would take to sell GM car not native to Europe.

It might just be a Opel XTS may be a better idea. They do rename Holdens there.

I just want us to take a little different big picture view of this and think outside the box. There is more to this issue than just FWD or RWD.

I think Euro buyers like Euro cars no matter the quality. Other wise there would not be any Fiat, Lancia, Lada or Peugeot.

That should show us how bad the goverment run Brits cars really were.

Edited March 28, 2011 by hyperv6

[dwightlooi]

You're no authority on the subject, Croc. And "the science" is contradictory.

This is really a detraction from the topic of this thread... but here are some basic facts.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Oldsmoboi
yet you posted it anyway despite 2 requests to get back on topic. Back to Cadillac in the EU.

[ZL-1]

I think Euro buyers like Euro cars no matter the quality. Other wise there would not be any Fiat, Lancia, Lada or Peugeot.

It's not about quality. Cadillacs are simply not adjusted to European market preferences and never were adjusted to those market preferences (size, engine size, and fuel economy being the three major aspects where they don't fit). Of course that it is great that the CTS-V exists and that it (in coupe form IIRC) was considered by readers of a German magazine to be the best import car in Germany, but even with that 5-series sized car in the form of the CTS, Cadillac does not try to challenge the 520d or the E220CDI or the A6 2.0TDI, and those 3 examples are where the sales are over here in the CTS category: 2.0L to 3.0L diesel engines.

[balthazar]

I agree that a competitive diesel should be on the roster in EU, but the Germans DO sell gas-engined cars there, no?

Who are buying those cars & why and in what quantity?

Anyone have the brand gas/diesel breakdowns, or some sort of overall percentage break?

[hyperv6]

I think Euro buyers like Euro cars no matter the quality. Other wise there would not be any Fiat, Lancia, Lada or Peugeot.

It's not about quality. Cadillacs are simply not adjusted to European market preferences and never were adjusted to those market preferences (size, engine size, and fuel economy being the three major aspects where they don't fit). Of course that it is great that the CTS-V exists and that it (in coupe form IIRC) was considered by readers of a German magazine to be the best import car in Germany, but even with that 5-series sized car in the form of the CTS, Cadillac does not try to challenge the 520d or the E220CDI or the A6 2.0TDI, and those 3 examples are where the sales are over here in the CTS category: 2.0L to 3.0L diesel engines.

That was my point. They like cars that are more intune with their market even if it is a crappy car. The CTS is large and not everyone in Germany whats a Maybach sized car.

I don't know were we could get the numbers but would it be resonable to think one third to one half the cars are diesel. Could it even be higher than that?

I hope that GM treats the ATS as a Global car and really tunes it to each markets needs. At least tune it more so than they ever have any other Cadillac.

Cadillac of Europe may be built on the back of a Diesel and Turbo gas 4 cylinder and not the CTS V

Edited March 28, 2011 by hyperv6

[Oracle of Delphi]

I think Euro buyers like Euro cars no matter the quality. Other wise there would not be any Fiat, Lancia, Lada or Peugeot.

It's not about quality. Cadillacs are simply not adjusted to European market preferences and never were adjusted to those market preferences (size, engine size, and fuel economy being the three major aspects where they don't fit). Of course that it is great that the CTS-V exists and that it (in coupe form IIRC) was considered by readers of a German magazine to be the best import car in Germany, but even with that 5-series sized car in the form of the CTS, Cadillac does not try to challenge the 520d or the E220CDI or the A6 2.0TDI, and those 3 examples are where the sales are over here in the CTS category: 2.0L to 3.0L diesel engines.

I would tend to agree with this statement ...

[ZL-1]

That was my point. They like cars that are more intune with their market even if it is a crappy car. The CTS is large and not everyone in Germany whats a Maybach sized car.

I don't know were we could get the numbers but would it be resonable to think one third to one half the cars are diesel. Could it even be higher than that?

I hope that GM treats the ATS as a Global car and really tunes it to each markets needs. At least tune it more so than they ever have any other Cadillac.

Cadillac of Europe may be built on the back of a Diesel and Turbo gas 4 cylinder and not the CTS V

Yeah the CTS is large enough (mere emphasis) for us here. In some segments (IIRC) you might see up to 60% sales as diesels. And in company car sales, which are important, the weight of 4-cyl diesel cars in the 5-Series/E-Class/CTS size category are probably higher still. The ATS should definitely have 4-Cyl models, gas and diesel, but thses should be tuned to higher hp/torque than the Opel variants so they could be marketed as exclusive to Cadillac.

[hyperv6]

That was my point. They like cars that are more intune with their market even if it is a crappy car. The CTS is large and not everyone in Germany whats a Maybach sized car.

I don't know were we could get the numbers but would it be resonable to think one third to one half the cars are diesel. Could it even be higher than that?

I hope that GM treats the ATS as a Global car and really tunes it to each markets needs. At least tune it more so than they ever have any other Cadillac.

Cadillac of Europe may be built on the back of a Diesel and Turbo gas 4 cylinder and not the CTS V

Yeah the CTS is large enough (mere emphasis) for us here. In some segments (IIRC) you might see up to 60% sales as diesels. And in company car sales, which are important, the weight of 4-cyl diesel cars in the 5-Series/E-Class/CTS size category are probably higher still. The ATS should definitely have 4-Cyl models, gas and diesel, but thses should be tuned to higher hp/torque than the Opel variants so they could be marketed as exclusive to Cadillac.

Do you think a deconteted ATS [and I don't mean fully stripped] would appeal to the market there. I know every BMW, Benz and Audi is not fully loaded there and I think they sell a good number of lower content models. Also how many of these are fleet sales and do they make any money on them?

I know a car like that here has limited appeal as we have seen the cheap 190 Benz, base 318's and others come and go here as no one wants a cheap looking German car. Few here want to be seen in stripped down Cadillac either for that matter.

The bottom line would be would GM be able to move enough cheaper ATS to make up the volume to keep it profitiable?

The goal is to build a car a German can afford but a Albainian would still steal.

You understand the thinking there better than anyone in the states. Do you think this is something they should look at?

[CSpec]

This is where China has been easy. They are selling to a public that many have just moved from a Mule to a car. Also the local cars are not anything to compare to even the worst cars we have had here.

Don't be so sure on that one.

[SAmadei]

This is where China has been easy. They are selling to a public that many have just moved from a Mule to a car. Also the local cars are not anything to compare to even the worst cars we have had here.

Don't be so sure on that one.

Do we need to replay the crash tests of the Brilliance BS4? What Chinese homegrown cars top the ones being imported there?

[CSpec]

This is where China has been easy. They are selling to a public that many have just moved from a Mule to a car. Also the local cars are not anything to compare to even the worst cars we have had here.

Don't be so sure on that one.

Do we need to replay the crash tests of the Brilliance BS4? What Chinese homegrown cars top the ones being imported there?

The past is not the future.

[ocnblu]

Hiper said: "I have one question as for Europe. What GM North American car outside the limited success of the Corvette has done well in Europe?"

(raises hand) OO OO, pick me! Is the answer "Saturn Astra"?

[hyperv6]

This is where China has been easy. They are selling to a public that many have just moved from a Mule to a car. Also the local cars are not anything to compare to even the worst cars we have had here.

Don't be so sure on that one.

Do we need to replay the crash tests of the Brilliance BS4? What Chinese homegrown cars top the ones being imported there?

The past is not the future.

With the forced partnerships of the western automakers in China with homeland automakers I know they will steal what they need to improve their cars. But even then they will not advance beyond what anyone else has since they have a difficult developing their own advanced technologies.

There industry also lack the discipline to keep the standards up. They can get things right but the problem is keeping it right.

Edited March 28, 2011 by hyperv6

[hyperv6]

Hiper said: "I have one question as for Europe. What GM North American car outside the limited success of the Corvette has done well in Europe?"

(raises hand) OO OO, pick me! Is the answer "Saturn Astra"?

You got that one backwards Horshack. We are not looking for Failed Euro cars going to America. GM even messed it up in the other direction. L series, Catera etc.......

Edited March 28, 2011 by hyperv6

[ZL-1]

Do you think a deconteted ATS [and I don't mean fully stripped] would appeal to the market there. I know every BMW, Benz and Audi is not fully loaded there and I think they sell a good number of lower content models. Also how many of these are fleet sales and do they make any money on them?

I know a car like that here has limited appeal as we have seen the cheap 190 Benz, base 318's and others come and go here as no one wants a cheap looking German car. Few here want to be seen in stripped down Cadillac either for that matter.

The bottom line would be would GM be able to move enough cheaper ATS to make up the volume to keep it profitiable?

The goal is to build a car a German can afford but a Albainian would still steal.

You understand the thinking there better than anyone in the states. Do you think this is something they should look at?

I actually think Cadillac will need more than diesels and Art & Science styling to make it here: no decontenting like the BMW's 116d model where they charge 250EUR for front foglights. Better to crush their margins and offer full content models than to decontent their cars, IMHO. And wait some 30 years for the brand perception/awareness/image to be built.

[Croc]

Do you think a deconteted ATS [and I don't mean fully stripped] would appeal to the market there. I know every BMW, Benz and Audi is not fully loaded there and I think they sell a good number of lower content models. Also how many of these are fleet sales and do they make any money on them?

I know a car like that here has limited appeal as we have seen the cheap 190 Benz, base 318's and others come and go here as no one wants a cheap looking German car. Few here want to be seen in stripped down Cadillac either for that matter.

The bottom line would be would GM be able to move enough cheaper ATS to make up the volume to keep it profitiable?

The goal is to build a car a German can afford but a Albainian would still steal.

You understand the thinking there better than anyone in the states. Do you think this is something they should look at?

I actually think Cadillac will need more than diesels and Art & Science styling to make it here: no decontenting like the BMW's 116d model where they charge 250EUR for front foglights. Better to crush their margins and offer full content models than to decontent their cars, IMHO. And wait some 30 years for the brand perception/awareness/image to be built.

Agreed. Decontenting is never the answer, especially in the luxury market. If anything, GM just needs to invest in Europe. And the thing is, with the recent bankruptcy proceedings and the issues with the factories and workers in Europe, I think it's just way too soon to start expanding there again. GM needs to regain the trust of the EU people before offering class-leading luxury cars there.

[Potluck]

Shouldn't Cadillac worry about winning back the U.S. first?

[David]

They won me back, I have ESV Platinum, CTS, SRX. Could not be happier with the family of auto's I own.

[smk4565]

Shouldn't Cadillac worry about winning back the U.S. first?

Yes they should, but they need global cars that can win here and in other countries. Which they currently do not have. I'd build cars that work globally, and try to get success here first before branching out.

[ocnblu]

That is not what Cadillac is about. Cadillac is, and should forever be, intrinsically, proudly, unabashedly... American.

[Z-06]

Cadillac's comparison to its competitors and following their path to win sales in Europe may not be optimal. There are "German Engineering" cars and there are "Japanese Engineering" cars and heck there are even "Korean Engineering" cars, despite of their own market is minuscule compared to world market. But what are "American Engineering" cars? Where is the American identity? Where is the perception of an American car? Even in the United States their identity is being lost by creating vanilla products result of blind benchmarking.

While trying to pursue other manufacturers and other markets there is no identity remaining of our cars. Find American cars identity, build them, advertise them and then sell them, may be that can really help Cadillac rather than being another BMW wannabe. Path may be more tortuous but may be more rewarding. You have to create a sense of American engineering and boast about it. I am not saying floaty ride big vehicles, but create a perception, create an image to sell cars of all sizes and shapes that is distinctly American rather than chasing tails of competitors. We all know German solid engineering is a perception, Japanese build quality is a veneer. We need some American attributes to sell these vehicles.