Random Thoughts Thread

[balthazar]

• Some people aren't, that's true, but that is what it is. Respect it... or not, then move on.
There are still people calling GM 'Government Motors' tho the debt was paid within a few years.

• The ignition switch thing is bad, but in the grand scheme of things, the engineering is far more questionable in light of toyota's recalls. Building a car frame/steel metallurgy should've been settled science sometime around, oh, 1925. It's like a home builder, after 50 years of experience, suddenly has a rash of cracking/heaving footings- you going to still invest with him to build your house with the same peace of mind?

• The "70s-80s" isn't remotely applicable Moltar : your example compares 45 years ago with 6.

[ykX]

@balthazar  Try google GM trucks frame rust.  Just saying ...

Edited April 25, 2018 by ykX

[Robert Hall]

7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

• Some people aren't, that's true, but that is what it is. Respect it... or not, then move on.
There are still people calling GM 'Government Motors' tho the debt was paid within a few years.

 

Yes, but those people are imbeciles and should be ignored. 

7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

 

• The "70s-80s" isn't remotely applicable Moltar : your example compares 45 years ago with 6.

The living in the past crowd will always bring up Chrysler's past issues, though.

[trinacriabob]

33 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

Yeah, some people are never able see beyond past issues.. it's like I know Chrysler made some absolutely dreadful cars in the late 70s and 80s, but that's long in the past and literally a different company than it is today. 

I agree.

Currently, I am not happy that GM does not have many cars to offer that interest me.

For the kind of motoring I like to do, I'd probably buy a base (RWD) Dodge Charger in white with a black cloth interior and the base V6 engine (30 mpg highway) and these sticker out at about $28,000 MSRP.  As for how they handle wintry conditions, some people have sounded off and said that, with the car's hefty weight, the RWDs track fairly well.  I've rented a couple of them and loved driving them.  It is definitely a substantial car for the money.  And this is from someone who absolutely hated Chrysler some 10 to 20 years ago.

In terms of GM, it would probably be a Chevy Cruze LT with cloth seats.  For being relatively small, its driving manners are excellent.

Looking at foreign cars, it would be either a new Sonata (with the letters nicely inscribed across the rear) or a new Passat.  Both sticker out at about $23,000 MSRP.

Edited April 25, 2018 by trinacriabob

[ccap41]

41 minutes ago, balthazar said:

• Some people aren't, that's true, but that is what it is. Respect it... or not, then move on.
There are still people calling GM 'Government Motors' tho the debt was paid within a few years.

For a massive loss.. I'm not sure if that's really paying it back but yes, it was "paid back". 

 

42 minutes ago, balthazar said:

• The ignition switch thing is bad, but in the grand scheme of things, the engineering is far more questionable in light of toyota's recalls. Building a car frame/steel metallurgy should've been settled science sometime around, oh, 1925. It's like a home builder, after 50 years of experience, suddenly has a rash of cracking/heaving footings- you going to still invest with him to build your house with the same peace of mind?

And shouldn't simple things like using the correct bolts or correct welding?

"General Motors LLC (GM) is recalling certain model year 2016-2017 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 and 2016 Cadillac Escalade, Cadillac Escalade ESV, Chevrolet Suburban, Chevrolet Tahoe, GMC Sierra, GMC Yukon and GMC Yukon XL vehicles. The front upper control arms may have inadequate welds near the control arm bushing."

It happens. The important thing is these major manufacturers are taking care of it. None of them are innocent so there's no good reason to hold one above the others. 

[Drew Dowdell]

On 4/20/2018 at 12:23 PM, trinacriabob said:

NOT a nice looking vehicle but I do love me some hood ornament ... on the right car. 

Or, if not a hood ornament, a hood medallion.

I wonder if hood ornaments will come back into vogue.

I hope so!

[Drew Dowdell]

34 minutes ago, trinacriabob said:

I agree.

Currently, I am not happy that GM does not have many cars to offer that interest me.

For the kind of motoring I like to do, I'd probably buy a base (RWD) Dodge Charger in white with a black cloth interior and the base V6 engine (30 mpg highway) and these sticker out at about $28,000 MSRP.  As for how they handle wintry conditions, some people have sounded off and said that, with the car's hefty weight, the RWDs track fairly well.  I've rented a couple of them and loved driving them.  It is definitely a substantial car for the money.  And this is from someone who absolutely hated Chrysler some 10 to 20 years ago.

In terms of GM, it would probably be a Chevy Cruze LT with cloth seats.  For being relatively small, its driving manners are excellent.

Looking at foreign cars, it would be either a new Sonata (with the letters nicely inscribed across the rear) or a new Passat.  Both sticker out at about $23,000 MSRP.

CPO loaded 300S or 300C V6 can be had for about $24k - $27k.  Knowing the cars you like, that might suit you. 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

For a massive loss.. I'm not sure if that's really paying it back but yes, it was "paid back".

You know the circumstances there- the Gov't sold off it's stock holding as early as possible, and well before it climbed to the point they may have broke even or even made a profit. That was on the Gov't, not GM. Money management has long been the Gov't's Achilles heel.

And shouldn't simple things like using the correct bolts or correct welding?

Agreed that there will always be assembly mishaps. At least on the Silverado, et al, there was a frame to bolt the control arms to.

[ccap41]

Leaving the factory the Tacoma did indeed have a rust free frame.. 

Point being, you should dislike all auto companies if you think a few recalls make a company look like they don't know how to engineer their vehicles. 

Should GM have coated their frames better to not rust as well? Nah, we'll turn a blind eye to them.. 

[balthazar]

" A few" ? Is there a volume level where you'd question the companies willingness to put engineering above profit?

And there's a real difference between the cosmetics of surface rust vs. crushing the vehicle due to being wildly unsafe to use on public roads. I'm in a salt-da-roads-at-will state with an un-garaged GM wax-coated frame with 180K miles on it. It BARELY has any surface rust on it and it's older than the recalled 'comas.

Edited April 25, 2018 by balthazar

[Robert Hall]

No idea about the frames, but here in salty Cleveland I've seen plenty of 10-15yr old GM pickups with serious cab and bed rust rolling around...

[ccap41]

So I'm supposed to doubt companies who have a lot of recalled vehicles? 

[frogger]

Recalls are definitely not a good indicator of reliability or quality IMO.  We all know about the Cobalt and the lack of recall until deaths happened despite GM having knowledge of the potential issue.

 

 

 

 

[Robert Hall]

The recall rate per 1000 is interesting. 

[ccap41]

7 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

The recall rate per 1000 is interesting. 

I thought that was a very neat number as well. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Number of recalls per vehicle sold doesn't tell you anything.

Jaguar recalled the S-Type once to place a missing sticker in the engine bay that basically read "Don't drink the antifreeze".

I think they should have left the sticker off and let the problem of people drinking antifreeze sort itself out. 

[Robert Hall]

1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Number of recalls per vehicle sold doesn't tell you anything. 

More recalls, more problems. 

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

More recalls, more problems. 

That's overly simplistic and I'm surprised you would suggest that.

Toyota and Honda have issued secret recalls for years. They issue a TSB and then send out mass mailers to owners for a free oil change and fix the issue as part of the oil change. None of those numbers show up in the list above.

When GM did its ignition recall, they recalled far more than they had to. They recalled the Alero, Grand Am, and Intrigue, but those had dash mounted ignitions which were different than the rest of the fleet and not part of the overall issue. 

In both cases, it's a matter of PR. GM recalled more than they needed to appear to be doing something. Honda/Toyota hid theirs via TSBs to avoid the publicity. Jaguar recalled vehicles to place a sticker, something that could have been a TSB.

In the end, it means the number of recalls per vehicle sold is not an accurate way to judge. 

[ccap41]

2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Toyota and Honda have issued secret recalls for years. They issue a TSB and then send out mass mailers to owners for a free oil change and fix the issue as part of the oil change. None of those numbers show up in the list above.

Those probably don't deal with human safety, I'd assume. Something can fail on a car and them want it fixed without being a safety recall. 

[Robert Hall]

5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That's overly simplistic and I'm surprised you would suggest that.

 

No, a lower the number of recalls per vehicle sold is a lower number of recalls.  Right?   

[Drew Dowdell]

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Those probably don't deal with human safety, I'd assume. Something can fail on a car and them want it fixed without being a safety recall. 

No, the ones that they give out the free oil changes for are more serious than a typical TSB. 

My point is that just having a recall does not indicate the severity of the issue. The only recall on my Buick has been the passenger seat bolt may not be torqued to spec.  Toyota has issued a TSB for brake lights not coming on due to incorrect brake pedal installation and Tacoma tailgates that collapse under weight.  Which of those should be a recall and which should be a TSB?

9 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

No, a lower the number of recalls per vehicle sold is a lower number of recalls.  Right?   

That is not the same thing as saying a lower number of problems.   And in the case of GM, they recalled vehicles that didn't necessarily need to be recalled to err on the side of caution. 

[ccap41]

20 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

No, the ones that they give out the free oil changes for are more serious than a typical TSB. 

My point is that just having a recall does not indicate the severity of the issue. The only recall on my Buick has been the passenger seat bolt may not be torqued to spec.  Toyota has issued a TSB for brake lights not coming on due to incorrect brake pedal installation and Tacoma tailgates that collapse under weight.  Which of those should be a recall and which should be a TSB?

Honestly, the seat bolt potentially coming lose is more serious than anything with a tailgate. Brake like seems more serious but if you're in an accident and you get rear ended at least your seat belt is working. 

Recall vs TSB

[Drew Dowdell]

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

Honestly, the seat bolt potentially coming lose is more serious than anything with a tailgate. Brake like seems more serious but if you're in an accident and you get rear ended at least your seat belt is working. 

Recall vs TSB

I think all of them could should be recalls, but only 1/3rd of them were. 

The Tacoma tailgate could fail with as little as 150 lbs of weight on it... that means, me standing on the tailgate could potentially collapse it and I would be injured, probably severely.... but it was just a TSB.

See now why I don't put much stock in number of recalls per vehicles sold?

[balthazar]

The issue with the chart above & toyota, is well over 40 million are ALL in the last 10 years or so. They were very solid prior to the early 2000s. That's either an unlucky roll of the destiny dice or a marked change in corporate mindset.

[ccap41]

As little as 150lbs isn't a small amount, imo. That just doesn't seem like the kind of thing for a safety recall, imo. Standing on the tailgate probably already has warnings and such saying you probably shouldn't be doing it anyway. 

This sounds equally as dangerous as a tailgate falling off. It's for the 2017 Silverado. 

""

BRAKES (PWS)

• TSB #PIT3665F

  NHTSA ID #10129088

  • JANUARY 23 2018
  • Additional Info:How to Fix

  Summary: This Preliminary Information communication advises the technician that the Hydro-Boost is not serviceable and will need to be replaced if the brake pedal moves or applies on its own at a full turn.

• TSB #PIP5411E

  NHTSA ID #10123239

• OCTOBER 12 2017
• Additional Info:How to Fix

• Summary: This Preliminary Information communication provides information to the technician about vehicles that may have hesitation or a stalling condition while in ambient temperatures 100 degrees or higher. Technician may find Diagnostic Trouble Co

[Robert Hall]

Sounds like automakers are inconsistent in what issues qualify as a TSB vs a recall.  

Edited April 25, 2018 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[David]

4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

So I'm supposed to doubt companies who have a lot of recalled vehicles? 

How about we stop padding the very old history of GM and drop the 80's and 90's and focus on the last 18 years. That is the core of the auto's on the road today and I can tell you GM will not be the top dog.

As @Cubical-aka-Moltar states the Recall Rate Per 1,000 cars is very interesting and I bet even the Germans will jump up there if you look at the 2000 to 2018 period only compared to when they were very small in the 80's and 90's.

So tell us where this chart came from as I would like to see the source myself.

Thank you,

[David]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

As little as 150lbs isn't a small amount, imo. That just doesn't seem like the kind of thing for a safety recall, imo. Standing on the tailgate probably already has warnings and such saying you probably shouldn't be doing it anyway. 

This sounds equally as dangerous as a tailgate falling off. It's for the 2017 Silverado. 

""

BRAKES (PWS)

• TSB #PIT3665F

  NHTSA ID #10129088

  • JANUARY 23 2018
  • Additional Info:How to Fix

  Summary: This Preliminary Information communication advises the technician that the Hydro-Boost is not serviceable and will need to be replaced if the brake pedal moves or applies on its own at a full turn.

• TSB #PIP5411E

  NHTSA ID #10123239

• OCTOBER 12 2017
• Additional Info:How to Fix

• Summary: This Preliminary Information communication provides information to the technician about vehicles that may have hesitation or a stalling condition while in ambient temperatures 100 degrees or higher. Technician may find Diagnostic Trouble Co

That tailgate better be able to handle 500lbs. I have never had a truck that could not handle me standing on it and unloading rocks, bark, etc. Failures of any kind can hurt people and all should be a recall as a matter of consistency.

[daves87rs]

All that the chart tells me is that cars/trucks suck and you'll have less issues with a bike....😜

[Drew Dowdell]

4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

As little as 150lbs isn't a small amount, imo. That just doesn't seem like the kind of thing for a safety recall, imo. Standing on the tailgate probably already has warnings and such saying you probably shouldn't be doing it anyway. 

This sounds equally as dangerous as a tailgate falling off. It's for the 2017 Silverado. 

""

BRAKES (PWS)

• TSB #PIT3665F

  NHTSA ID #10129088

  • JANUARY 23 2018
  • Additional Info:How to Fix

  Summary: This Preliminary Information communication advises the technician that the Hydro-Boost is not serviceable and will need to be replaced if the brake pedal moves or applies on its own at a full turn.

• TSB #PIP5411E

  NHTSA ID #10123239

• OCTOBER 12 2017
• Additional Info:How to Fix

• Summary: This Preliminary Information communication provides information to the technician about vehicles that may have hesitation or a stalling condition while in ambient temperatures 100 degrees or higher. Technician may find Diagnostic Trouble Co

That should be a recall also, you're making my point for me.

[ocnblu]

A pickup truck tailgate should be able to handle a substantial amount of weight.

[A Horse With No Name]

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

A pickup truck tailgate should be able to handle a substantial amount of weight.

Exactly....!

 

16 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Number of recalls per vehicle sold doesn't tell you anything.

Jaguar recalled the S-Type once to place a missing sticker in the engine bay that basically read "Don't drink the antifreeze".

I think they should have left the sticker off and let the problem of people drinking antifreeze sort itself out. 

I think given the current state of the country not eating lead paint chips might be a better warning to people. Just sayin...

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, dfelt said:

How about we stop padding the very old history of GM and drop the 80's and 90's and focus on the last 18 years. That is the core of the auto's on the road today and I can tell you GM will not be the top dog.

As @Cubical-aka-Moltar states the Recall Rate Per 1,000 cars is very interesting and I bet even the Germans will jump up there if you look at the 2000 to 2018 period only compared to when they were very small in the 80's and 90's.

So tell us where this chart came from as I would like to see the source myself.

Thank you,

I never insinuated they were the top dog. Just that everybody has them so it isn't something you should hold over one company that much more than another. 

11 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That should be a recall also, you're making my point for me.

Not really.

You said GM recalls more and Toyota avoids things like this with TSBs while GM is also using TSBs. 

I completely agree with everybody that they(truck tailgates) should be able to handle a substantial amount of weight but I don't think it should be a SAFETY recall. 

[David]

@ccap41 Can you please at least just look at 2000 till now or 2008 till now as I would love to see the chart for the auto industry for the last 10 and 20 years of Recalls. Data like this would be very good at showing current trends better if broken down into 5 year segments. Thank you,

[balthazar]

My approach is one of severity or if the vehicle cannot be safely operated. If OEM A has a recall of 1 million for a missing owner's manual page, and OEM B has a recall for 1 million for engine sludge - no; those cannot be put on an even level with each other.

- - - - -

A tailgate fails/falls with a person standing on it, and they are dumped 3 feet to the ground. If it fails/falls with a heavy object on it, that object is pitched directly at a person standing there's knees/legs. Both have a solid potential for injury. Yes- that should be a safety recall.

[ccap41]

So should be Silverados stalling out in 100 degree weather or using breaks if you turn the steering wheel all the way. Let's criticize them then for not recalling and only making TSBs for it. 

You can find any specific circumstance for any part failure to become an injury if you want to. 

11 minutes ago, dfelt said:

@ccap41 Can you please at least just look at 2000 till now or 2008 till now as I would love to see the chart for the auto industry for the last 10 and 20 years of Recalls. Data like this would be very good at showing current trends better if broken down into 5 year segments. Thank you,

Nah. You can find and post if you'd like though. 

[David]

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

So should be Silverados stalling out in 100 degree weather or using breaks if you turn the steering wheel all the way. Let's criticize them then for not recalling and only making TSBs for it. 

You can find any specific circumstance for any part failure to become an injury if you want to. 

Nah. You can find and post if you'd like though. 

So then what web site did you use and I will happily grab the data to look at?

[ccap41]

On 4/25/2018 at 9:07 AM, ccap41 said:

That's like saying you're completely turned off by the whole GM ignition switch situation which is way worse of a recall. 

I don't mind recalls. Every company has them and they're taking care of a problem. 

Interesting article in 2016 when we were in peak recall times.

http://wardsauto.com/industry/best-and-worst-automaker-recall-rates

@dfelt

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I never insinuated they were the top dog. Just that everybody has them so it isn't something you should hold over one company that much more than another. 

Not really.

You said GM recalls more and Toyota avoids things like this with TSBs while GM is also using TSBs. 

I completely agree with everybody that they(truck tailgates) should be able to handle a substantial amount of weight but I don't think it should be a SAFETY recall. 

My point is that the numbers you are looking at are unreliable.  Both companies use TSBs and Recalls, however what constitutes a recall v. TSB is inconsistent. Thus, only looking at the number of recalls per vehicles sold doesn't give an accurate picture.

It could be AMC v. Datsun v. Trabant for all I care... if companies aren't treating the issues the same, then the numbers per brand are meaningless for comparison. 

[David]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

@dfelt

Thank you, missed that post.

Recalls also can be greatly taken out of context when you only have a chart and not the full picture and the start of the story is spot on I think when you then take the charts into account.

QUOTE:

"An analysis covering three decades of auto recalls says Porsche has the lowest recall rate and Volkswagen Group the highest.

General Motors has the best recall timeliness of the major automakers. Tesla earns the top spot for recall proactiveness.

iSeeCars.com analyzed automakers’ new-vehicle sales and NHTSA recall data from January 1985 through September 2016 to calculate three metrics:

• Recall rates demonstrating how often a manufacturer produces a vehicle with a defect relative to the number of cars it sells.
• Recall timeliness indicating how quickly and willing an automaker is to identify problems with its cars and initiate a recall within three years.
• Recall proactiveness reflecting the extent to which an automaker’s recall stemmed from  its own investigation or NHTSA’s. "

Be interesting to see if iseecars.com allows one to look at these figures in 5yr chunks.

[David]

OUTSTANDING INFO on Recalls

https://www.iseecars.com/recalls

This actually shows  the current YTD #'s and it is very interesting.

As of today 4/26/2018

[David]

Seems Bosch is trying to sell a new Snake oil potion that requires no new hardware but reduces Diesel to below the new 2020 standards on emissions for Europe.

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/25/bosch-diesel-emissions-breakthrough/

I really hope auto companies ignore this and move forward with the superior Hybrid / EV quiet auto's.

[ccap41]

Yeah, let's trust Bosch to clean up diesel... They're the ones who made whatever components for VW to "pass" emissions. 

[David]

Seems Honda has a new sub brand called Everus and showed off their first EV auto for the Chinese market.

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/25/honda-everus-ev-concept-beijing/#slide-7315575

[ccap41]

That's a fairly attractive automobile. 

[David]

9 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

That's a fairly attractive automobile. 

I agree, I hope Honda rethinks about it China only. At least bring it in as a true Honda here. I think it would sell well to the Honda Faithful.

[Robert Hall]

3 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I agree, I hope Honda rethinks about it China only. At least bring it in as a true Honda here. I think it would sell well to the Honda Faithful.

If Honda is going to do an EV here soon, an EV CUV would make a lot of sense.. 

[David]

Very funny but interesting read:
https://jalopnik.com/jeep-s-success-and-hyundai-s-losses-illustrate-why-ford-1825562558

[Drew Dowdell]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Yeah, let's trust Bosch to clean up diesel... They're the ones who made whatever components for VW to "pass" emissions. 

They made them, yes. But they were meant for testing only and they specifically warned VW against using them in production. 

[ccap41]

55 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

They made them, yes. But they were meant for testing only and they specifically warned VW against using them in production. 

I know I know I knooooooow 

Just joshin' around...