Industry News: California Mulls Ban On Combustion Engines

[William Maley]

California is considering joining France and Great Britain in banning the sale of gas and diesel-powered vehicles.

Governor Jerry Brown has been expressing an interest in banning the sale of internal-combustion engines according to Mary Nichols, chariman of the California Air Resources Board.

“I’ve gotten messages from the governor asking, ‘Why haven’t we done something already?’ The governor has certainly indicated an interest in why China can do this and not California,” she said to Bloomberg.

As we reported earlier this month, China is also considering a ban on internal combustion engines.

California has set an ambitious goal reducing carbon dioxide emissions by 80 percent from 1990 levels by 2050.

“To reach the ambitious levels of reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, we have to pretty much replace all combustion with some form of renewable energy by 2040 or 2050. We’re looking at that as a method of moving this discussion forward,” said Nichols.

If California was to go forward with this, it would send massive shockwaves in the automotive industry due to the size of state's auto market. Last year, more than 2 million new passenger vehicles were registered, topping countries like France and Spain. Automakers would be under new pressure on making EVs the standard.

But that doesn't mean California will have an easy time with this. While the state has the authority of writing its own pollution rules thanks to the 1970 Clean Air Act, they cannot be enacted with getting waivers from the EPA. With the Trump administration going on record that it would challenge California on any new environmental act, the state is looking for alternative ways to get what they want.

“We certainly wouldn’t expect to get a waiver for that from EPA. I think we would be looking at using some of our other authorities to get to that result,” said Nichols.

Nichols did say it will be a long time before something like this is implemented.

“There are people who believe, including who work for me, that you could stop all sales of new internal-combustion cars by 2030. Some people say 2035, some people say 2040. It’s awfully hard to predict any of that with precision, but it doesn’t appear to be out of the question.”

Source: Bloomberg

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[daves87rs]

They might be able to ban new car sales, but they cannot stop the of the used, or simply the use of them. 

Many simply could not afford it, and they cannot get massive public transportation that fast either.....

[David]

I can see a sale of New ICE auto's ending by 2040. Existing auto's I can see being limited to collector status and limiting miles driven. Many ways to force / change the type of auto's driven and the way they are driven.

This could also push people into the conversion big time as people change over ICE powered auto's they like to EV powertrains.

[Drew Dowdell]

There is going to need to be massive investment in charging infrastructure.  Even if chargers are common enough for today's level of EV use, they aren't nearly plentiful enough for the entire state of CA to go EV. 

I've started to contemplate having the outlet installed in my garage in the next few years.  When I get back into writing reviews in a few months time, I want to be able to take in plug-in vehicles. 

[William Maley]

54 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

They might be able to ban new car sales, but they cannot stop the of the used, or simply the use of them. 

Many simply could not afford it, and they cannot get massive public transportation that fast either.....

I'm assuming it is applicable to new cars, similar to the ban taking place in Great Britain. 

[balthazar]

Anyway we can get California to literally join France? As in move it next door?

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

I can see a sale of New ICE auto's ending by 2040. Existing auto's I can see being limited to collector status and limiting miles driven. Many ways to force / change the type of auto's driven and the way they are driven.

You cannot DO this: force people who legally own an approved consumer good as vital as a vehicle to suddenly be severely limited in its use. For one, the value of these items would instantly plummet to near zero, rendering these people without a trade-in (Would be no surprise to me if CA suggests a special tax to write every ICE owner a compensatory check). The only way this passes general acceptance is to allow grandfathering / attrition... over the course of many decades. Gov't can only ban the production of NEW ICEs... just as there are no retro-active vehicular equipment laws (that I'm aware of)- even after 50 years of federal vehicle regulation.

The 'next step' then comes to question- what about people traveling into CA? Or moving to CA? And what about semi-trucks- would they be exempt?

Edited September 26, 2017 by balthazar

[smk4565]

If CA does it, then the rest of the country will follow shortly after or auto makers will just give up on gas engines.  If California had 2 million car sales, that is 1/8th of all car sales in the USA.  That is huge.  

They can't take away someone's gas car, but they can stop sale of new ones.  So if they want to be emission free by 2050, they need to ban sales of ICE cars around 2035 to allow 15 years for existing cars to run their life cycle.

I think EV's will get better and better and no one is going to want a gas car anyway in 2030.

[ccap41]

31 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Anyway we can get California to literally join France? As in move it next door?

[daves87rs]

4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

If CA does it, then the rest of the country will follow shortly after or auto makers will just give up on gas engines.  If California had 2 million car sales, that is 1/8th of all car sales in the USA.  That is huge.  

They can't take away someone's gas car, but they can stop sale of new ones.  So if they want to be emission free by 2050, they need to ban sales of ICE cars around 2035 to allow 15 years for existing cars to run their life cycle.

I think EV's will get better and better and no one is going to want a gas car anyway in 2030.

Oh, they could-but the results would be quite bad...

Don't get me wrong, I like EVs, but you can't drag race them....

 

But who knows, maybe Apple will make EVs.......

[smk4565]

4 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

Oh, they could-but the results would be quite bad...

Don't get me wrong, I like EVs, but you can't drag race them....

 

But who knows, maybe Apple will make EVs.......

Yes you can, the Model S just won't Motor Trend's World's greatest drag race.

[daves87rs]

Just now, smk4565 said:

Yes you can, the Model S just won't Motor Trend's World's greatest drag race.

 

More interested in the mainstream cars, not the higher end ones.....

And I highly doubt you could abuse the model S like you could with say, A hemi.....

[oldshurst442]

35 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

 

More interested in the mainstream cars, not the higher end ones.....

And I highly doubt you could abuse the model S like you could with say, A hemi.....

Its an electric motor. (2 motors...1 in the front, 1 in the back)

3 phase.

Are you trying to tell us that an induction motor is less durable and less reliable and less capable of achieving high and sustained RPMs than an internal combustion engine?

I dont feel like writing a high school essay on why an induction motor is less likely to fail in a drag race versus an internal combustion engine.

• While heat is detrimental to both...the internal combustion engine produces a shyte load of it while the induction motor produces very little, if any...
• There are no fluids to overheat and to spill via ruptured hoses in an induction motor...
• There are no gears to grind as there is no transmission...just a single speed transmission in an induction motor...
• Running high RPMs all day long 365/24/7 is kinda the electric motor's thang...

 

And that is just for starters...

Its OK for you people not to like EVs...please though...dont just spew whatever comes to your head to justify your views...it dont look good for you folk when others are reading your shyte!

[oldshurst442]

PS: When HEMIs decide to self destruct, they make a huge and loud BOOM!

Louder and bigger than any other engine in the racing world...something to be proud of actually...

 

 But... THAT is the explosive nature of an internal COMBUSTION engine....so...

Edited September 27, 2017 by oldshurst442

[daves87rs]

31 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Its an electric motor. (2 motors...1 in the front, 1 in the back)

3 phase.

Are you trying to tell us that an induction motor is less durable and less reliable and less capable of achieving high and sustained RPMs than an internal combustion engine?

I dont feel like writing a high school essay on why an induction motor is less likely to fail in a drag race versus an internal combustion engine.

• While heat is detrimental to both...the internal combustion engine produces a shyte load of it while the induction motor produces very little, if any...
• There are no fluids to overheat and to spill via ruptured hoses in an induction motor...
• There are no gears to grind as there is no transmission...just a single speed transmission in an induction motor...
• Running high RPMs all day long 365/24/7 is kinda the electric motor's thang...

 

And that is just for starters...

Its OK for you people not to like EVs...please though...dont just spew whatever comes to your head to justify your views...it dont look good for you folk when others are reading your shyte!

Helps if you read my other posts though.....

I happen to like EVs  (rode in a new Volt and really liked it), and I am not flat out bashing it either. I'm just not sure they are just ready for prime time abuse just yet. I sadly and personally know of someone who managed to kill a very nice 2013 Volt.....

And while I'm sure any drag race they would be fine....driving like one stole it might for a while might be interesting...like I said-I am just not sure about the long term-yet. I have no doubt the automakers are doing their best (personally seen what goes into a Volt at D-Ham) and they are building them tough-but they haven't met the dumb half of John Q. Public yet.....

But I know like anything else, they'll be just as tough as a Toyota Corolla given to a 16 year old....

And,"you Folk"?

[balthazar]

Motor Trend "World's Greatest" drag only had 12 cars in it.

Tesla Model S 100D : 10.6
Dodge Hellcat Demon : 9.6

[67impss]

Smk how in the world do you get that these electric cars are emission free. They are still causing the burning of fossil fuels in over 90% of all power plants and would use 50% more than gasoline in MN.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/electric-cars-are-not-necessarily-clean/ 

[oldshurst442]

6 hours ago, daves87rs said:

but they haven't met the dumb half of John Q. Public yet.....

But they have...

electric motors...(different kinds of electric motors)...are EVERYWHERE IN EVERYDAY stuff stupid John Q public uses...I dont think e-motors dont wreak havoc upon us...

But we are talking about a 3 phase induction motor.

A stator, a rotor, copper wire, magnets and a shaft...

The shaft may misalign itself...but that wont be because of stupid John Q misusing it...

There are no fluids that will be forgotten to be topped off...

The magnetic field that is needed to be produced for an induction motor to kinda do its thang kinda happens all by itself...

A 3 phase  motor is inherently, kinda-like...idiot proof.

 

If "you Folk"  is all you got on me, I suggest you revisit high school electric/physics class...

 

 

[ccap41]

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

Motor Trend "World's Greatest" drag only had 12 cars in it.

Tesla Model S 100D : 10.6
Dodge Hellcat Demon : 9.6

Zero percent chance they could replicate a sub 10 second pass on an air strip. 

[surreal1272]

7 hours ago, 67impss said:

Smk how in the world do you get that these electric cars are emission free. They are still causing the burning of fossil fuels in over 90% of all power plants and would use 50% more than gasoline in MN.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/electric-cars-are-not-necessarily-clean/ 

Which only lends credence to the fact that states like Minnesota need to use different and cleaner forms of energy to produce said power. Arizona’s solar industry has grown every year and will continue to do so, lending a perfect match to charging up those EVs. 

[David]

17 hours ago, balthazar said:

Anyway we can get California to literally join France? As in move it next door?

You cannot DO this: force people who legally own an approved consumer good as vital as a vehicle to suddenly be severely limited in its use. For one, the value of these items would instantly plummet to near zero, rendering these people without a trade-in (Would be no surprise to me if CA suggests a special tax to write every ICE owner a compensatory check). The only way this passes general acceptance is to allow grandfathering / attrition... over the course of many decades. Gov't can only ban the production of NEW ICEs... just as there are no retro-active vehicular equipment laws (that I'm aware of)- even after 50 years of federal vehicle regulation.

The 'next step' then comes to question- what about people traveling into CA? Or moving to CA? And what about semi-trucks- would they be exempt?

Valid Points, The west coast give big breaks to people who register their old auto's as Collectors and you are limited in how many miles a year you can drive them for all the perks  of being a collector. 6000 miles in Washington.

Many ways for the gov to limit auto's being driven. Especially if it is not a daily driver, why not take the breaks and savings that can be had with limited driving.

13 hours ago, daves87rs said:

Oh, they could-but the results would be quite bad...

Don't get me wrong, I like EVs, but you can't drag race them....

 

But who knows, maybe Apple will make EVs.......

WRONG, You need to learn young padawan!

White Zombie is one of many that are street legal and officially Drag Race.

Here is a video of it eating up all types of drag race cars. EV kills ICE.

 

[David]

13 hours ago, daves87rs said:

 

More interested in the mainstream cars, not the higher end ones.....

And I highly doubt you could abuse the model S like you could with say, A hemi.....

Actually the EV is more reliable and can take the abuse better than the Hemi.

This comes down to a less complex engine or motor able to react faster.

[ccap41]

Unless they have quick chargers at drag strips that's still not a viable option. 

[daves87rs]

4 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

But they have...

electric motors...(different kinds of electric motors)...are EVERYWHERE IN EVERYDAY stuff stupid John Q public uses...I dont think e-motors dont wreak havoc upon us...

But we are talking about a 3 phase induction motor.

A stator, a rotor, copper wire, magnets and a shaft...

The shaft may misalign itself...but that wont be because of stupid John Q misusing it...

There are no fluids that will be forgotten to be topped off...

The magnetic field that is needed to be produced for an induction motor to kinda do its thang kinda happens all by itself...

A 3 phase  motor is inherently, kinda-like...idiot proof.

 

If "you Folk"  is all you got on me, I suggest you revisit high school electric/physics class...

 

 

 

No, I was actually asked what you meant by it. And since you want to insult  me like a high schooler, no point in adding anything further.......

I'm just pointing out ideas for debate...and if I learn something new, cool....all for it in my quest for knowledge. And you come off like I am against it- when the that's not true. I just question how ready, that's all.....

And I know dfelt is picking on me (cause he's a good guy)- but not sure if you are...

If you don't like my idea train-just say so....

[daves87rs]

42 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Valid Points, The west coast give big breaks to people who register their old auto's as Collectors and you are limited in how many miles a year you can drive them for all the perks  of being a collector. 6000 miles in Washington.

Many ways for the gov to limit auto's being driven. Especially if it is not a daily driver, why not take the breaks and savings that can be had with limited driving.

WRONG, You need to learn young padawan!

White Zombie is one of many that are street legal and officially Drag Race.

Here is a video of it eating up all types of drag race cars. EV kills ICE.

 

 

I've heard about it....but damn that's cool.....

[David]

38 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Unless they have quick chargers at drag strips that's still not a viable option. 

For the west coast, yes, Level 3 quick chargers are now standard. The public and Professional drag races are pretty cool seeing all the various teams that are going EV.

6 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

 

I've heard about it....but damn that's cool.....

Check out NEDRA, the West Coast EV Drag Racing association.

Also check out the European EV Drag Racing, crazy cars at 500HP

Current World fastest EV Drag Racer, VW Beetle baby with a 9.5 sec run.

 

[David]

@daves87rs Check it out!  

Don Garlits is going for 200+ MPH in Pure EV Drag Racer!

Gotta Love these new sleeker EV Dragsters!

184 mph quarter mile in 7.258 seconds.  

[daves87rs]

1 minute ago, dfelt said:

@daves87rs Check it out!  

Don Garlits is going for 200+ MPH in Pure EV Drag Racer!

Gotta Love these new sleeker EV Dragsters!

 

Stop...lol!

 

You're giving me the urge to modify a Volt or Leaf......that totally looks like fun!!!!

I think I could have more fun with these than a gas engine.....maybe!

[David]

28 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

Stop...lol!

 

You're giving me the urge to modify a Volt or Leaf......that totally looks like fun!!!!

I think I could have more fun with these than a gas engine.....maybe!

Leaf 2.0 will have a Nismo version.  

[Robert Hall]

41 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Leaf 2.0 will have a Nismo version.  

And a GT-R version..

[daves87rs]

54 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Leaf 2.0 will have a Nismo version.  

 

Ah, after my boy racer heart are we....

 

On a more serious note, stuff like this could make more "car" folk again...which is always a good thing....

[David]

1 hour ago, daves87rs said:

 

Ah, after my boy racer heart are we....

 

On a more serious note, stuff like this could make more "car" folk again...which is always a good thing....

Yes, Yes we are!

1 hour ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

And a GT-R version..

I hope GM is paying attention as a BOLT SS would be totally cool!  

[David]

1 hour ago, daves87rs said:

 

Ah, after my boy racer heart are we....

 

On a more serious note, stuff like this could make more "car" folk again...which is always a good thing....

You want more check out this 1968 Ford Mustang called the Zombie 222. A tribute to the White Zombie and even better as a street legal EV muscle car.

Plenty more you can check out on Youtube on this bad boy.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=zombie+222

[oldshurst442]

4 hours ago, daves87rs said:

 

No, I was actually asked what you meant by it. And since you want to insult  me like a high schooler, no point in adding anything further.......

I'm just pointing out ideas for debate...and if I learn something new, cool....all for it in my quest for knowledge. And you come off like I am against it- when the that's not true. I just question how ready, that's all.....

And I know dfelt is picking on me (cause he's a good guy)- but not sure if you are...

If you don't like my idea train-just say so....

Well...YOUR argument was not even high school grade...

If you feel that Im not a good person...its OK...

Just put your big boy pants on and except confrontation when you post dumb things...

YOUR argument was not of a jokey one...like how it turned out now...

YOU were serious...about a Model S not being able to be abused on a drag race...

I posted 2 posts.

The first was aggressive...the second was direct but playful....I could understand if you did not take it that way...but that is what you get when you get egg on your face...

Then instead of saying "yes Oldshurst...my bad!!! You may have a point..."

YOU continue on trying to defend an undefendable argument...

One thing I HATE the most...whether on the internet or real life...is when people CANNOT ADMIT THEY ARE WRONG!!!

So yeah...tell me Im a bad person...

If correcting you...even if slightly aggressive..but NO INSULTS WERE THROWN AT YOU...I JUST TOLD YOU TO GO BACK TO HIGH SCHOOL PHYSICS BECAUSE THE ARGUMENT YOU MADE...A HIGH SHOOLER WOULD NEVER HAVE MADE....THEN YEAH.... IM AN A$$H0L3!!!

PS: I ALWAYS ADMIT WHEN IM WRONG!

I LET PEOPLE TEACH ME!

THAT IS HOW I LEARN!!!!

IT AINT ABOUT EGO!!!!

MAYBE YOU SHOULD LOOK YOURSELF IN THE MIRROR AND SEE WHO REALLY INSULTED WHO???!!!

 

 

REMEMBER...YOU SAID I WAS A BAD GUY!!!!

SHOULD I TAKE THAT AS AN INSULT????
SHOULD I CRY???!!!

[David]

H'mmmm  Are we having a Man-O-Pause Moment in this thread? 

 

[ccap41]

" Why so serious? "

[oldshurst442]

I dont know?

Ask the dude who called me a bad person...

Ill tell you why I reacted the way I did the first time.

I do take things serious when electrics get thrown in the mud constantly. Maybe I shouldnt be wearing  my panties too tightly...

But I take it to heart even more when said arguments dont even hold water just using common knowledge...

But...I did lighten it up with the HEMI engines going boom!

The next response to me was even more childish than the first...

Ill repeat...

Its OK if you folk dont like or wont accept electrics...just dont be stupid about it!

BE HONEST!

Take this post for instance...
 

Quote

 

Unless they have quick chargers at drag strips that's still not a viable option. 

 

Is it sooooo bloody hard for the operators of a drag strip to call in Tesla to install one?

Knowing damn well that Tesla Model S-es are more and more raced...Im willing to bet my left testicle that this has already been done at at least 1 drag race strip somewhere in the USA!!!

So...sure...my panties are in a knot...

Can you blame me?

How old are we in this forum?

Im sure we are all over 30 years old...

We sure arent teenagers bench racing Playstation Gran Turismo games!!!

Common!

Im asking for intelligent discussions...

Ill have to tone it down...Im sorry...

But lets get real here!!!

 

 

[ccap41]

12 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

I do take things serious

Summed up the book.

13 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Knowing damn well that Tesla Model S-es are more and more raced...Im willing to bet my left testicle that this has already been done at at least 1 drag race strip somewhere in the USA!!!

Absolutely! But that one does me no good and likely a good chunk of the mid-west. 

Best part of going to NHRA events is the irrationally loud cars. I would not be entertained by EV drag cars. I probably would be entertained driving them but not watching them.

[oldshurst442]

11 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Summed up the book.

Absolutely! But that one does me no good and likely a good chunk of the mid-west. 

Best part of going to NHRA events is the irrationally loud cars. I would not be entertained by EV drag cars. I probably would be entertained driving them but not watching them.

 

Still a high school argument though, non?

When did pointing out the truth become a no-no?

 

About the drag racing super charging stuff...

and...CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG...PLEASE!

A Tesla Model S  could do...3-4 maybe even 5 passes before the battery is no longer able to give you the ludicrous juice?

Even at 3 passes...dont most casual drag racers only do about 3 or 4 runs anyway on average?

Why would we want to look for hindrances when these are barely hindrances?

Where there is a will, there is a way is how I was brought up!!!

 

Edited September 27, 2017 by oldshurst442

[ccap41]

Nope, I've made 6 passes in a night when there wasn't a sh!t ton of ppl that allowed for shorter intervals between passes. Why would you only make 3 passes? 

Barely hindrances? I have to drive home after those passes as well. 

Edited September 27, 2017 by ccap41

[ccap41]

I just looked it up and who would have thought, there's no EV charging at the track( Gateway Motorsport Park, for those who'd like to find out for themselves) 

[oldshurst442]

Yeah....

like I said...

There is a will, there is a way...

 

https://www.plugshare.com/?location=45376

 

[oldshurst442]

Where there is a will, there is a way...

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/dragstrips-near-superchargers.95695/

[daves87rs]

6 hours ago, dfelt said:

H'mmmm  Are we having a Man-O-Pause Moment in this thread? 

 

Maybe....

Olds, you're good...I don't think you're bad....maybe a bit sassy, but you're fine....

Besides, I used to bump heads with folks on here who I'm friends with now....

And if I'm wrong, I am fine with that too. Both of you showed my a few things I didn't know....funny considering I had to work with Tesla for a while(parts side).

You just surprised me, that's all. I changed my panties and all is well.... Okay, I'll admit I might have had a butthurt moment.......

I will say it is amazing now fast things are changing with EVs......

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Yeah....

like I said...

There is a will, there is a way...

 

https://www.plugshare.com/?location=45376

 

Like deflt already said, they're out west but that still does me no good in the mid west or at my closest drag strip. I already gave me zip code. Look up all of the available charging locations around me. Between me and Gateway Motorsports Park. 

[David]

39 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Like deflt already said, they're out west but that still does me no good in the mid west or at my closest drag strip. I already gave me zip code. Look up all of the available charging locations around me. Between me and Gateway Motorsports Park. 

You could blaze a trail and check and see if your local power company has any rebates for installing a home 220v Charging system.

Washington rebates the cost of the unit, you just have to pay installation. So pretty good deal. Plus adds value to the home as it then becomes EV ready.  

[ccap41]

That's not blazing a trail at all... I know I can install one at home. I don't know about the rebate or incentive aspect of it but that doesn't really help me if I'm trying to make a handful of passes at a drag strip w/o a charger at or close to the track. 

[David]

15 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

That's not blazing a trail at all... I know I can install one at home. I don't know about the rebate or incentive aspect of it but that doesn't really help me if I'm trying to make a handful of passes at a drag strip w/o a charger at or close to the track. 

True, I understand that, course that is also the cool thing as I bet at your track near you, they probably do have some 220 or 440 outlets so you could get a charge cord with the proper twist lock and just plug in.  

[ccap41]

lol so steal electricity from the track? 

[Drew Dowdell]

I mean really... must every debate on EV's be reduced to strawman arguments?  Are we really arguing over supercharger/DCFC locations relative to drag strips now as a knock against EVs? We're talking a percentage of a percentage of a percentage of EV drivers that will ever do such driving.

[ccap41]

Look back on page 1 for why that got brought up.