Cadillac News: Cadillac Going Back To Names for EVs

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac President Steve Carlisle said that when Cadillac starts rolling out its electric vehicles, it will use actual words for model names instead of the alphanumeric scheme currently used on its cars and SUVs.  Cadillac's move away from names started in 2003 with the Cadillac CTS. Over time, the Seville and Deville were converted to STS and DTS respectively. Later, the scheme was changed to alphanumeric when Johan de Nysschen joined the company as President.

Cadillac will be taking the lead on GM's push to introduce 20 new all-electric vehicles around the globe by 2023.  Carlisle said that by 2030, the majority, if not all, Cadillacs will be battery electric vehicles. The recently release set of vehicles, CT4, CT5, XT4, and XT5, will get one more round of refreshes before transitioning to a BEV platform late in the decade. 

The next introduction is the Cadillac Escalade, which will be officially introduced in February, though pictures of the 2021 Escalade have already leaked online. Cadillac's SuperCruise hands-free driver-assist system will eventually be offered on the Escalade with additional functionality not currently included in the system. There are strong hints that this version of SuperCruise will include lane change ability.

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[David]

Happy they are going back to names.

[smk4565]

About time.  Real names are much better for them, it fits with their roots.

I wonder if CT4 and CT5 are one and done nameplates and that will help them get back to all names much quicker, however we know XT4/XT5/XT6 aren't going anywhere due to the crossover craze, so do they leave those 3 as is or rename them.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Happy they are going back to names.

It shouldn’t be just for EVs though. If anything, its a bit ass backwards.

[ocnblu]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Carlisle said that by 2030, the majority, if not all, Cadillacs will be battery electric vehicles

He also said this suicidal transition will coincide with customer demand... it may NEVER happen.  We'll see.

[balthazar]

>>"Cadillac could continue to sell internal combustion models alongside electric vehicles, depending on consumer demand."<<

Wow- one auto exec who seems to get it.
We've been talking about the EV movement here for years, but it's only been this year I've been reading a scant few industry folk allowing as to how most of the journalistic / op-ed, Sound-of-Music-twirl predictions of '50% of the market by 2025' just isn't reflected in ANY numbers.

Wow- no foolin?

I believe we'll have IC vehicles at least 50 years from now.

[regfootball]

this is all just PR bullshit to get them through the news cycle so some dipshit in GM marketing can tell their boss they had 10 articles circulated to press this week to keep GM in the hype train.

Because green electric vehicles keeps cadillac cool.  since they actually don't have one, just say you're going to have one, repeatedly, and make sure it pops up on news feeds.  Then people think Cadillac has cars like tesla, even though they don't.  

MW, continue on with the XT4 XT5 XT6 ride that pony.

Someday they will have EV's sure, no problem.  GM had EV1 and that was supposed to bust the EV doors open.

Car mfr marketing articles and campaigns and prommises are starting to seem like politicians and their promises.  Stick a finger in the wind and figure out what you need to say this week.  Doesn't mean you have to follow through on anything!!!!!  You just want airtime in my eyeballs, just like all those plus size instagram models!

[USA-1]

GM is trying to be optimistic about 2030. I predict the company, specifically with Cadillac, will gradually phase in BEV's and if they still aren't selling well enough within a few years they can easily switch 50% or more to ICE units and keep the line running until battery tech catches up and the EVSE infrastructure gets to where it needs to be as well. Then they will have options in case another crash happens and gas prices spike again. EV's will then be readily available and more popular, and with a flexible assembly line GM will be able to quickly answer the current demand. 

[ocnblu]

19 minutes ago, USA-1 said:

trying to be optimistic

Except there is no optimism around EVs.  Just dour sadness.  Drone-like monotony.  And soul-sucking.

[USA-1]

10 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Except there is no optimism around EVs.  Just dour sadness.  Drone-like monotony.  And soul-sucking.

Emphasis in "trying"

[smk4565]

EV will take over the luxury segment first then spread down.  As batteries get better and cheaper, the cost between EV and turbo V6 or V8 gets closer.  And the EV is faster, more refined and quieter than ICE.  

[surreal1272]

58 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Except there is no optimism around EVs.  Just dour sadness.  Drone-like monotony.  And soul-sucking.

It’s funny how you think your hate for EVs means that everyone else hates them too. Example? The man who appraised my home yesterday was driving a Tesla 3 while also owning a Ford F-150 Crew. Because he drives around town a lot and the Ford is a gas sucker, the Tesla saves him so much grief with its 300+ miles range. He really loved the instant torque off the line. He actually loves both and realizes they have different uses and purpose. He said he had zero regrets about buying the Tesla. The point here is that your constant attempts to speak for everyone in regards to EVs is just pure bunk. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by surreal1272

[bobo]

Finally, some good news out of Cadillac.  The current batch of alphanumeric names is probably the worst in the business now that Lincoln abandoned theirs.

EV is the future, BEV or otherwise.  Our household is on our second EV, and next year we'll get our third.  We're never going back to ICE.

[balthazar]

If CA has it's way, you won't be able to even if you wanted to.

[Guest]

Caddy also should go back to wreath and crest!

[ocnblu]

8 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

It’s funny how you think your hate for EVs means that everyone else hates them too. Example? The man who appraised my home yesterday was driving a Tesla 3 while also owning a Ford F-150 Crew. Because he drives around town a lot and the Ford is a gas sucker, the Tesla saves him so much grief with its 300+ miles range. He really loved the instant torque off the line. He actually loves both and realizes they have different uses and purpose. He said he had zero regrets about buying the Tesla. The point here is that your constant attempts to speak for everyone in regards to EVs is just pure bunk. 

Hearsay is not admissable.  In this case.

[riviera74]

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

EV will take over the luxury segment first then spread down.  As batteries get better and cheaper, the cost between EV and turbo V6 or V8 gets closer.  And the EV is faster, more refined and quieter than ICE.  

While that looks like this is what is happening, we could definitely use some $15-25K EVs so that we can replace ICE vehicles where it really matters: the used car market.  That may take several years, but ending our dependence on oil makes sound economic and geopolitical sense, regardless of any politics involved.

[surreal1272]

4 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Hearsay is not admissable.  In this case.

You would do wise to remember your OWN words. Everything you have said is nothing but hearsay and therefore not admissible yet you constantly speak like it is the Bible truth. I am merely speaking from an actual experience from an actual owner That happened literally two days ago at my own home. What do you have? My guess is nothing.

Edited December 13, 2019 by surreal1272

[Sevenfeet]

Part of the reason why the change back to names is that from a marketing standpoint, I'm guessing customers and most importantly, potential customers never understood what the current naming convention meant after nearly two decades and a course correction on the way. Meanwhile Lincoln who began with names, changed to a similar three-letter naming convention leading with "Mk" decided it didn't work either and added back Aviator and Continental and also created Nautilus and Corsair.

 

So like Navigator, the Escalade name predates and will outlive nameplates like XT5 and CTS. The big problem is what will they go to. Some people want Cadillac to return to their old names but that may not make sense in the modern era either. And the transition to those names was made slowly over two decades as Cadillac went to a naming convention in 1936 that used spoken numbers that were spelled out...Series Sixty-Two, Series Seventy-Five, Sixty-Special (although Cadillac frequently also used "Series 62" and "Series 75" for shorthand in brochures). The name "Fleetwood" as attached to the Sixty Special and Seventy-Five beginning in 1941 with the demise of the custom coach business at Fleetwood body. The Coupe De Ville made its debut as a trim package in 1949 for the Series 62 the Sedan De Ville added a few years later and becoming their own models in 1958.

 

So the following names have been used over the decades for Cadillac cars (not counting the spelled out number models):

 

Fleetwood, Deville (Coupe, Sedan & Park Avenue), Calais, Eldorado, Seville. Brougham, Cimmaron, & Allante.

 

Can you see any of these names attached to a modern car? Maybe you could do a new Fleetwood but I'm not seeing any of the others come back.

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Sevenfeet

[smk4565]

Eldorado coupe/convertible should be a given.  Even if a 4-door coupe due to low demand of 2-doors, they have to do an Eldorado.  I could see Fleetwood and Seville for sedans, I can't imagine given the market's thirst for SUV's they'd have more than 2 sedans, one on the smaller side, one on the larger.

[oldshurst442]

Sedan DeVille, Eldorado are still 

18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Eldorado coupe/convertible should be a given.  Even if a 4-door coupe due to low demand of 2-doors, they have to do an Eldorado.  I could see Fleetwood and Seville for sedans, I can't imagine given the market's thirst for SUV's they'd have more than 2 sedans, one on the smaller side, one on the larger.

You beat me to it!!!

But Id say Deville could work for an EV SUV.    It actually means "of the city".    An EV for the city...an urban vehicle?  Its a GREAT name for that niche. 

Eldorado is a given.  Eldorado is a very powerful name in Cadillac's names arsenal.  In my opinion, there is no other LUXURY car name better than Eldorado.  The name literally glistens with GOLD...and its such an ELEGANT name. Yet arrogant and brash. PERFECT for Cadillac...   But the name needs a vehicle WORTHY of the name plate.   That late 1980s thing was NOT it...   The next and last gen Eldorado was a good Eldorado, but Cadillac should have gone BACK to RWD with it.   

Elmiraj. Escala. Evoq. Ciel. Cien.  All concepts. But names that Cadillac could actually use going forward. EV or otherwise. 

 

Id nix Fleetwood.   That sounds too old. Too Boomer-ish generation.  Same with Brougham.

Deville and Eldorado are Boomer names too.  But when a very hippity hoppoty hip hop rapper artist does a restomod Cadillac and calls it Snoop DeVille, you just gotta know that Deville still has ballz to keep on ballin' with the Millennial crowd.  In other words, Eldorado and DeVille STILL resonate with folk. Young and old. 

Seville?  Id keep names of places in retirement.  

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

Any car name short of an acknowledged 'flop' is game for a high-quality dynamic rebirth.
An Escala named "Fleetwood" would be just fine. Haters will still try and claim they can only envision white belt/early bird special owners from the 1980s, but it won't wash.
It's like trying to associate a modern S-class with the VW-interior, crank-windowed, anemic-powered, no-A/C cars from the '70s.

Products can evolve and raise their status. Look at Lincoln.

[balthazar]

 

Imagine this car comes out, and it's named 'Fleetwood'.
 

[oldshurst442]

I get what you are saying. And I agree with. But in order for old names to resonate again, without haters hating, would be to produce a vehicle worthy of the Cadillac brand, and then it does NOT matter what the name of it will be.   Even Cimarron , OK...not THAT name, but the name Allante could do just fine as well if and only if, the product is a good one WORTHY of a Cadillac.

Now...I aint saying that Cadillac is not producing great products, because they are...I just saying that Cadillac should NOT take ANY steps back going forward regarding style, quality, luxury and all that and ANY name will do.

But...also...yes, that picture on top, Fleetwood or even Brougham would be just fine, just as long as it meets and beats the Cadillac criteria of being "The Standard of the World". Because if a car like that has a name like Fleetwood or Brougham, if its just a lazy attempt,  then its no bueno and therefore haters will have their voices heard...

But at the same time, there may not be a need to use ALL of Cadillac's past names. 

Id prefer if they go with new names. Those names of those concepts from the 2000s show that Cadillac guys still have the brains to invent new awesome names for Cadillac cars. THIS is what Id prefer.  Other than DeVille and Eldorado.  Ive explained why I like those names for new Cadillacs.  

Edited December 14, 2019 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

Frankly, neither I nor Cadillac, should give a crap about 'haters'; it's a waste of time/resources to try and convert them. A billion dollars of focused marketing & product development would still never get me owning a toyoter.

Agreed; the product has to be top shelf. If GM is highly profitable (it is), at least at Cadillac; Caddy should just put their concept vehicles into production as is. Escala, Ciel, even that electric SUV they teased. Build 'em & jack the equivalent prices by 50%.

[smk4565]

Eldorado is their best nameplate that needs to be the first one out of the gate.

After that debate can go on using Fleetwood or Seville, I think those are their next best 2, DeVille doesn't really sound good as a name even if you don't know what the old car was, Seville rolls of the tongue better. 

Other  names like Catera, Cimmaron, Calais, etc, forgettable and not catchy, so they need new names for new EV product.  But it is quite possible that Eldorado is the only nameplate they have that carries any weight, a lot of damage was done to the Cadillac image over the past 40 years.

[oldshurst442]

Agreed. About Cadillac not spending billions trying to convert a close minded shopper.   Product should be enough to convert.  

Agreed. Those concepts are great as is. And yes, they should have been built. And it aint too later to still build them as is as those concepts are still great and look relevant in 2020.  

Agreed. Prices SHOULD climb to reflect "The Standard of the World" but the little XT4 and CT4 stuff has got to go. 

Cadillac dealerships SHOULD UNDERSTAND that Cadillac is NOT about volume. But about STATUS.  

 

 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Cadillac dealerships SHOULD UNDERSTAND that Cadillac is NOT about volume. But about STATUS.  

 

 

Problem is they need to climb over about ten brands to get that Status.  That is going to be a long road.
 

Right now they aren’t about volume either but they need to maintain at least the volume they have to stay in business.  

[balthazar]

Wrong on both points.

[smk4565]

8 hours ago, balthazar said:

Wrong on both points.

How so? Cadillac has more status than Tesla, Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Bentley, Rolls, Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover?  
Cadillac can’t sell on status.

They also aren’t a viable brand if they shrink unless they use a GMC blueprint and sell versions of Chevrolet’s which is sort of GM’s direction with them.

[balthazar]

1. Define ‘climb over 10 brands’ and also define the 5 of those brands that ‘have to climb over the other 5’... OR explain how they are just fine in whatever hierarchy they’re in.

2. There’s no threat to Cadillac ‘staying in business’ as long as they are stay as highly profitable as they are.

[smk4565]

Cadillac doesn't have to beat out everyone, but they aren't a top status symbol brand, they don't have a great image.  If Cadillac puts out a car that matches specs with the Tesla in every way shape and form and costs exactly the same, the Tesla will outsell it easily on name alone.  

GM doesn't break out brand profits so we don't know how profitable any of the brands are.  I would assume that all make profit, but we don't know how much.

 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

If Cadillac puts out a car that matches specs with the Tesla in every way shape and form and costs exactly the same, the Tesla will outsell it easily on name alone. 

Exact same thing is true for mercedes, tho- they just put off their eqs (or whatever alphanumeric it is) because they can’t afford to take the ROI loss. Tesla will kill any mercedes EV. That says much less about brand status than it does about EV status.

GM made $11 billion profit in ‘18 (more than MB); no doubt a healthy slice was from Cadillac. 

[smk4565]

Brands like Mercedes and Porsche have cache, they can make a run at Tesla.   EQ C was put off here because I think their worry is it won't sell well since the Jaguar and Audi aren't doing well.  EQ C is based off the GLC chassis, it isn't on their skateboard like EV chassis, that EQ S is on.  I think when S arrives they beat Tesla.  

Mercedes is in Formula E racing now too, they'll build good EV's and they already have a built in customer base that pays high prices for cars, they don't have to really bring in new buyers as much as some others.

[balthazar]

They don’t build ‘good electrics’ because no one buys them. A half dozen hybrids/ ‘low EVs’ have shown conclusively they don’t care to put any real effort into them, and they lose money on every (pitifully few) sale. Consumers know it. Why buy a copy when they can get the original EV vehicle, right?

Not to mention that the skateboard concept was invented by General Motors, so they have that cache in-house toward future Cadillac EVs. Daimler doesn’t.

Edited December 14, 2019 by balthazar

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Brands like Mercedes and Porsche have cache, they can make a run at Tesla.   EQ C was put off here because I think their worry is it won't sell well since the Jaguar and Audi aren't doing well.  EQ C is based off the GLC chassis, it isn't on their skateboard like EV chassis, that EQ S is on.  I think when S arrives they beat Tesla.  

Mercedes is in Formula E racing now too, they'll build good EV's and they already have a built in customer base that pays high prices for cars, they don't have to really bring in new buyers as much as some others.

“They’ll build good EVs”

 

You would think that the “best or nothing” would already have such things. Guess if I walk into a Mercedes dealership and ask about them if they have any good EVs, the answers are going to be “nothing” and “the Tesla showroom is just up the road”. 
 

And you think Cadillac is somehow going to have to climb this mythical mountain of ten brands to be taken seriously in the EV market. Well, seems to be that it’s no more than nine brands since you basically admitted that Benz doesn’t have any good EVs right now (and it won’t be in the next year either). 

[smk4565]

34 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

“They’ll build good EVs”

 

You would think that the “best or nothing” would already have such things. Guess if I walk into a Mercedes dealership and ask about them if they have any good EVs, the answers are going to be “nothing” and “the Tesla showroom is just up the road”. 
 

And you think Cadillac is somehow going to have to climb this mythical mountain of ten brands to be taken seriously in the EV market. Well, seems to be that it’s no more than nine brands since you basically admitted that Benz doesn’t have any good EVs right now (and it won’t be in the next year either). 

Mercedes is going to have EV's before Cadillac, they should have 4 on sale in 2021, which will be about as many as Tesla has.  

Whether the car is EV or gas, Cadillac still has an image disadvantage, so the car better be good if they are going after Tesla.  And look at what something like a Taycan costs, people will pay $150k for a Porsche, they won't pay that for a Cadillac.

[surreal1272]

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes is going to have EV's before Cadillac, they should have 4 on sale in 2021, which will be about as many as Tesla has.  

Whether the car is EV or gas, Cadillac still has an image disadvantage, so the car better be good if they are going after Tesla.  And look at what something like a Taycan costs, people will pay $150k for a Porsche, they won't pay that for a Cadillac.

Umm no they’re not, at this rate. They have already delayed for a year and I suspect maybe longer given the money contraction with the company this year. 

 

Not even talking about Porsche because duh, they already have a product out with the Taycan (soon anyway). Funny you talk about folks not paying that for a Cadillac when one hasn’t evens come out though, much less at $150K. Must be nice to make up non-provable hypotheticals. I do know some Porsche buyers that are considering a C8 though so there’s that. 

[balthazar]

49 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes is going to have EV's before Cadillac, they should have 4 on sale in 2021, which will be about as many as Tesla has.  
Too little, too late. Tesla has a 10 year head start on MB.

And look at what something like a Taycan costs, people will pay $150k for a Porsche, they won't pay that for a Cadillac.
Remains to be seen if Porsche sells any volume of note tho. EPA just slashed Porsche range claim by 80 miles; now it isn't even in the Bolt's range house.

 

[oldshurst442]

57 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

And look at what something like a Taycan costs, people will pay $150k for a Porsche

Ummmm...NO THEY WONT!

Why?

Porsche fell very flat on the range part...   Only the Porshefiles will buy that the first year and possibly the second year. After that...the Taycan, if Porsche does NOT fix the range part...Tesla will eat its lunch, even with a car that will be approaching a DECADE old...because Tesla has battery packs coming soon that will out perform their old ones... 

Audi...that EV SUV they got...sold zilch as compared to what Tesla sells as their Model X... and Audi just unlocked some of their battery's capacity JUST to be a tad more competitive in the range department because Tesla is just that much better...

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30199684/porsche-taycan-ev-range/

The Taycan is the LEAST efficient EV...

and of course...the Germans never admit fault nor incompetence... 

But seeing as their sister company Audi also has shyte EV tech...and still only getting 220 miles on their E-Tron...(yeah...battery safety...my ass), it shoudnt surprise us...that VW is nowhere NEAR  being on top of the EV world...

There is NO cachet for Porsche and Audi in the EV world...  

And about EV sales...

57 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

people will pay $150k for a Porsche, they won't pay that for a Cadillac.

And about that...like I said about Porsche...only the Porschefiles will buy that, but when a Taycan driver comes up to a 1st generation Model S and gets his ass handed to him in range and in speed....yes...the one from 2012, the Taycan driver will no longer be proud of his "Porsh-uh"

As for Cadillac, lets see what GM does in the EV world and what Cadillac does with it BEFORE we have an opinion.

The Mustang Mach-E is said to rival Tesla in performance and in range.  Just like what Porsche said....we will see what the Mach-E will really do.  

About Cadillac, we do not know what Cadillac has up its sleeve.  GM and Cadillac is REALLY REALLY secretive about that. 

YOU had doubts on what the Vette C8 would do...well the C8 is here and YOU were surprised yet I...told you ONE YEAR PRIOR what the C8 would be alll about...  That Mercedes Formula One road car  you were proud...  The C8 Z06 will be on sale, the Zora hybrid 900 plus HP C8 will be sold, and that M-B Foprmula One thing will still be a pipe dream...   The C8 and ALL of its trims will be making everybody drool, including Tesla fanboys, (The Hybrid C8) and YOU will still be waiting on the Mercedes...

Mercedes Benz and its EVs...

They are being conservative with their announcements, because THEY KNOW they WONT be able to beat Tesla...  They saw how Audi and Jaguar has failed in specs and in sales and now Porsche with specs...

Mercedes RETRACTED their launch for 2021...

I wouldnt be bashing Cadillac if I were you...

But...Im not up-selling Cadillac EVs to you...  Im being cautious about what Cadillac EV tech is all about.  

I know one thing, TESLA has EVERYBODY beat...

I know another thing though...I also KNOW that Cadillac and GM will NOT drop the ball on their EVs and especially Cadillac's EVs.

They KNOW what is at stake.

How I know this...

I listened to Autoline Detroit After Hours last Thursday and they had Tadge on speaking for the C8...

He is own focused GM engineer.  The C8 was one focused sports car.  I KNOW Cadillac and GM are FOCUSED for EVs...  I KNOW these  GM/Cadillac EV engineers are gonna hit it!!!

 

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by oldshurst442

[riviera74]

You know: maybe GM should have an EV-only brand and sell those vehicles using something really innovative.  Like how GM started with Saturn (1985-2010) only better.  Worst case scenario: the EV brand flops in 10-15 years and its back to ICE.

[oldshurst442]

7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 If Cadillac puts out a car that matches specs with the Tesla in every way shape and form and costs exactly the same, the Tesla will outsell it easily on name alone.  

Not exactly.   IF Cadillac matches at the very least, Tesla in all specs...Cadillac has a fighting chance. Tesla fanbois and EV rabid fanbois, view other EVs, if they dont match Tesla in specs...as COMPLIANCE cars.  THAT is the difference. 

its not all about the Tesla brand.  Some of it is also about Tesla technology being what it is.   Musk has shown to be a fool.  SANE folk dont follow this guy like a God...

Tesla fanbois will always buy Tesla...it dont matter what Mercedes or Cadillac do. This is true...

But there are Tesla buyers that are NOT fanatics and just want an EV to be at the very least something resembling Tesla specs. Why would a current  Tesla  owner trade-in his Tesla for a lesser product from Porsh-uh or Mercedes or Audi or Jaguar?  He/She WONT!   He/She will coninue to buy a Tesla as long as Tesla is on top of that technology. 

5 hours ago, balthazar said:

Exact same thing is true for mercedes, tho- they just put off their eqs (or whatever alphanumeric it is) because they can’t afford to take the ROI loss. Tesla will kill any mercedes EV. That says much less about brand status than it does about EV status.

Yes...Mercedes retracted because they KNOW they will fall short in the specs and will take a MAJOR hit in sales   BECAUSE of it. They see the Audi and Jaguar sales failures.  And its not only about them losing money because of the sales failure...BUT with the public perception of Mercedes FAILING at EVs and that is no bueno for their EV future...like I said...EV fanbois do NOT like EV compliance cars.   Maybe they are thinking that that failure might also affect their ICE perception too...who knows???

 

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

 

Bottom line is this. Tesla has the technology that out-performs the current state of EVs. REAL competiton for Tesla will happen when all others AT LEAST comes close to what specs Tesla has...  

Another is product.  The right product has to be available for sale.  The right sized CUV, nicely styled CUV, etc...

If the right product IS available for sale, but the specs fall short of Tesla specs, Tesla will continue to dominate.  My last sentence is more like a "duh" statement more than anything else. 

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, balthazar said:

 

Mercedes outsells Tesla now.  Whether it is gas or electric doesn't really matter.  Eventually everything will be electric, the rate at which the change happens isn't that important, what matters is that as the change happens car makers have the product people want.

Porsche sells various products at over $100k, so they have proven buyer pool that will pay high prices.  

[surreal1272]

17 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes outsells Tesla now.  Whether it is gas or electric doesn't really matter.  Eventually everything will be electric, the rate at which the change happens isn't that important, what matters is that as the change happens car makers have the product people want.

Porsche sells various products at over $100k, so they have proven buyer pool that will pay high prices.  

What in the hell does Mercedes total sales versus Tesla have to do with anything? Benz has 19 models to Teslas 3. It damn sure better outsell them. Now show us the number of Mercedes Benz EV sold versus Tesla because it DOES matter, since you are the one bringing up sales numbers yet again, when you think it’s convenient to your goal post moving. And the rate at which the change does matter, just not to you now that you know that Benz is further delaying their EV plans. 

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Ummmm...NO THEY WONT!

Why?

Porsche fell very flat on the range part...   Only the Porshefiles will buy that the first year and possibly the second year. After that...the Taycan, if Porsche does NOT fix the range part...Tesla will eat its lunch, even with a car that will be approaching a DECADE old...because Tesla has battery packs coming soon that will out perform their old ones... 

Audi...that EV SUV they got...sold zilch as compared to what Tesla sells as their Model X... and Audi just unlocked some of their battery's capacity JUST to be a tad more competitive in the range department because Tesla is just that much better...

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30199684/porsche-taycan-ev-range/

The Taycan is the LEAST efficient EV...

and of course...the Germans never admit fault nor incompetence... 

But seeing as their sister company Audi also has shyte EV tech...and still only getting 220 miles on their E-Tron...(yeah...battery safety...my ass), it shoudnt surprise us...that VW is nowhere NEAR  being on top of the EV world...

There is NO cachet for Porsche and Audi in the EV world...  

And about EV sales...

And about that...like I said about Porsche...only the Porschefiles will buy that, but when a Taycan driver comes up to a 1st generation Model S and gets his ass handed to him in range and in speed....yes...the one from 2012, the Taycan driver will no longer be proud of his "Porsh-uh"

As for Cadillac, lets see what GM does in the EV world and what Cadillac does with it BEFORE we have an opinion.

The Mustang Mach-E is said to rival Tesla in performance and in range.  Just like what Porsche said....we will see what the Mach-E will really do.  

About Cadillac, we do not know what Cadillac has up its sleeve.  GM and Cadillac is REALLY REALLY secretive about that. 

YOU had doubts on what the Vette C8 would do...well the C8 is here and YOU were surprised yet I...told you ONE YEAR PRIOR what the C8 would be alll about...  That Mercedes Formula One road car  you were proud...  The C8 Z06 will be on sale, the Zora hybrid 900 plus HP C8 will be sold, and that M-B Foprmula One thing will still be a pipe dream...   The C8 and ALL of its trims will be making everybody drool, including Tesla fanboys, (The Hybrid C8) and YOU will still be waiting on the Mercedes...

Mercedes Benz and its EVs...

They are being conservative with their announcements, because THEY KNOW they WONT be able to beat Tesla...  They saw how Audi and Jaguar has failed in specs and in sales and now Porsche with specs...

Mercedes RETRACTED their launch for 2021...

I wouldnt be bashing Cadillac if I were you...

But...Im not up-selling Cadillac EVs to you...  Im being cautious about what Cadillac EV tech is all about.  

I know one thing, TESLA has EVERYBODY beat...

I know another thing though...I also KNOW that Cadillac and GM will NOT drop the ball on their EVs and especially Cadillac's EVs.

They KNOW what is at stake.

How I know this...

I listened to Autoline Detroit After Hours last Thursday and they had Tadge on speaking for the C8...

He is own focused GM engineer.  The C8 was one focused sports car.  I KNOW Cadillac and GM are FOCUSED for EVs...  I KNOW these  GM/Cadillac EV engineers are gonna hit it!!!

 

 

VW is the 9th largest company in the world.   VW has said EV is their goal, with their resources they will figure it out.  I also don't think Taycan owners care about range, but again they will sort that all out.

Range is also over rated, 95% of driving is done within 25 or 50 miles of home.  A Taycan charged once a day can drive 72,800 miles per year.  I'd like to know how many drivers put more than 72,000 miles per year on their car.

Tesla has a great product, but they also don't give you S-class luxury or Porsche's handling.  It isn't all about range, there are other factors to the car.  So we have to see what all these cars offer.

And same for Cadillac, I have no opinion on the Cadillac EV because it doesn't exist yet.  The Cadillac brand name does not have the status of others, the brand image is what they have to overcome so they need a good product.

C8 performs like I thought it would, maybe a little quicker than I thought, the price is what surprised me, I thought it would be $80k at least to start.  Although GM is losing money on every C8 under $80k, so we'll see how long the $60k price lasts. 

The Mercedes-AMG One will have the full run built in 2021, they just announced that.  And they are doing something never done before, and building a car that is on a level never seen before.  It takes time to get that right.

[oldshurst442]

25 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes outsells Tesla now.  Whether it is gas or electric doesn't really matter.  Eventually everything will be electric, the rate at which the change happens isn't that important, what matters is that as the change happens car makers have the product people want.

Porsche sells various products at over $100k, so they have proven buyer pool that will pay high prices.  

Tesla outsells Mercedes in the electrics vehicles department.  And THAT is what counts in this topic in this thread.

Tesla has better tech than Mercedes. Tesla has better public perception in EVs than Mercedes. Tesla even has MORE profits than Mercedes in EVs...  And THAT is saying something, isnt it???!!!

And as you put it

31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Eventually everything will be electric

and if Mercedes does not have what it takes to compete with Tesla, or even Cadillac in the EVs department...no matter when that change happens...that it ABSOLUTELY matters because as you put it...eventually everything will be electric...and if Mercedes fails...and Porsche...than Mercedes and Porsche will join Oldsmobile...and THAT is the bottom line.

You could laugh at that...but GM is already selling a BEV.   GM already has experienced what real world problems that BEVs face...   GM has already learned what to do and what NOT to do with BEVs in the market place.  That is a leg up on Mercedes, isnt it?

GM has already learned how to compete DIRECTLY with Tesla. Albeit with a product that does not compete with the Model 3,  it does as an EV sharing somewhat the same price point...

Mercedes is not only behind Tesla, Mercedes is behind GM too...

NOT a good place to be in....

 

 

[smk4565]

18 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

What in the hell does Mercedes total sales versus Tesla have to do with anything? Benz has 19 models to Teslas 3. It damn sure better outsell them. Now show us the number of Mercedes Benz EV sold versus Tesla because it DOES matter, since you are the one bringing up sales numbers yet again, when you think it’s convenient to your goal post moving. And the rate at which the change does matter, just not to you now that you know that Benz is further delaying their EV plans. 

They delayed 1 EV on sale date.  EQ A and EQ B test mules are out there, those are both probably 2021 arrivals as is EQ S.  Daimler has a zero emission carbon neutral goal as a company by 2040, that is for cars and factories.  So that push is going to come hard.

I personally would put EQ C on sale now and see what happens, Mercedes is a better badge than Jaguar or Audi and the EQ C looks better than their vehicle and is priced better than them also.  I think it would sell jut fine, and if they only sell 10,000 all year who cares, it is 10,000 people that didn't go somewhere else.

[smk4565]

4 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Tesla outsells Mercedes in the electrics vehicles department.  And THAT is what counts in this topic in this thread.

Tesla has better tech than Mercedes. Tesla has better public perception in EVs than Mercedes. Tesla even has MORE profits than Mercedes in EVs...  And THAT is saying something, isnt it???!!!

And as you put it

and if Mercedes does not have what it takes to compete with Tesla, or even Cadillac in the EVs department...no matter when that change happens...that it ABSOLUTELY matters because as you put it...eventually everything will be electric...and if Mercedes fails...and Porsche...than Mercedes and Porsche will join Oldsmobile...and THAT is the bottom line.

You could laugh at that...but GM is already selling a BEV.   GM already has experienced what real world problems that BEVs face...   GM has already learned what to do and what NOT to do with BEVs in the market place.  That is a leg up on Mercedes, isnt it?

GM has already learned how to compete DIRECTLY with Tesla. Albeit with a product that does not compete with the Model 3,  it does as an EV sharing somewhat the same price point...

Mercedes is not only behind Tesla, Mercedes is behind GM too...

NOT a good place to be in....

 

 

Tesla is the future, that is the appeal to the brand.  I like Tesla personally, I think they have great cars and I like the idea of EV.  But you don't get S-class luxury in a Tesla, you don't get G-wagen off road ability in a Tesla, etc.  There isn't a convertible Tesla, etc.  There are things Mercedes already does with their lineup that they can electrify and offer something Tesla doesn't.  Likewise with VV group and others.

Daimler is the 3rd largest auto company in the world behind VW and Toyota, they have resources, they have a plan.  EV's are not big sellers right now, the key is to transition people from gas to electric which might take 20 years and eventually the whole line is EV.  Mercedes is in a great place right now, all those gas SUV's they are selling are making profit that Tesla doesn't have, and giving Mercedes ability to spend more on EV tech.

[oldshurst442]

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

VW is the 9th largest company in the world.   VW has said EV is their goal, with their resources they will figure it out.  I also don't think Taycan owners care about range, but again they will sort that all out.

Range is also over rated, 95% of driving is done within 25 or 50 miles of home.  A Taycan charged once a day can drive 72,800 miles per year.  I'd like to know how many drivers put more than 72,000 miles per year on their car.

Tesla has a great product, but they also don't give you S-class luxury or Porsche's handling.  It isn't all about range, there are other factors to the car.  So we have to see what all these cars offer.

And same for Cadillac, I have no opinion on the Cadillac EV because it doesn't exist yet.  The Cadillac brand name does not have the status of others, the brand image is what they have to overcome so they need a good product.

C8 performs like I thought it would, maybe a little quicker than I thought, the price is what surprised me, I thought it would be $80k at least to start.  Although GM is losing money on every C8 under $80k, so we'll see how long the $60k price lasts. 

The Mercedes-AMG One will have the full run built in 2021, they just announced that.  And they are doing something never done before, and building a car that is on a level never seen before.  It takes time to get that right.

 

VW will lose their shirts in this EV thing...especially when Audi's EV intro is a dud.  Porsche wont fair to good either.

Dude, its Porsche.  The Model S hands its ass to it in performance, and in range. And the Model S is 8 years old now. Tesla's new battery and motor is soon to come. The Roadster will be Tesla sports car and nothing in Porsche's ICE aresenl, never you mind EV will touch the Roadster.  The Model S also is going track racing. The Model 3 track pack handles better than the Model S at a track, but now Tesla race engineers are working to get the Model S some track cred....and it looks like it will spank the Taycan's ass in that area too.  Porsche....will lose to Tesla in track racing...  How phoquing embarssing is that for Porsche???!!!

Luxury...give it some time...Tesla will do that too in-house.  Tesla Model S owners that are bazillionnaires go aftermarket on the interior.  Like some do with Corvettes and restomodded muscle cars...   So that is a moot point...   The luxury here is the tech. And Tesla wins hands down over the Germans...

The Corvette C8...

GM is a big big company. 

The tech they use in Vettes will filter on down to the rest of GM's line-up. The stuff that makes Corvettes lose money BELOW 80 thousand, in time, through economies of scale, will start making money for Corvette...

This is the first year for mid-engine tooling and bespoked Corvette mid-engined parts... 

Let the C8 sell a few thousand on this platform...and then the tooling will be paid off...

The C9 and C10 wont have the tooling costs be factored in.

The composite materials used in the C8 will be used in the Evs for Cadillac. 

The electrification of some sensors...communication stuff for internet up-grades a la Tesla starts with the Corvette...and that costs the C8 a ton of money...but...the Tahoe and the Yukon and Suburban and the Escalade will all have that as well...bringing that cost down on the Corvette C8...  Not too mention every other GM car going forward... and so forth and so forth...

GM has lost money on Corvettes in the past. GM has made money on Corvettes in the past...

And most importantly, GM has LEARNED HOW to make money on the Corvette and hence whay the Corvette is with us with a brand new, expensive as hell, loaded up to the gills with tech C8...

 

 

13 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

They delayed 1 EV on sale date.  EQ A and EQ B test mules are out there, those are both probably 2021 arrivals as is EQ S.  Daimler has a zero emission carbon neutral goal as a company by 2040, that is for cars and factories.  So that push is going to come hard.

I personally would put EQ C on sale now and see what happens, Mercedes is a better badge than Jaguar or Audi and the EQ C looks better than their vehicle and is priced better than them also.  I think it would sell jut fine, and if they only sell 10,000 all year who cares, it is 10,000 people that didn't go somewhere else.

GM has a zero-zero-zero  program by 2030...

test mules mean nothing....

test mules are vapour ware

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Tesla is the future, that is the appeal to the brand.  I like Tesla personally, I think they have great cars and I like the idea of EV.  But you don't get S-class luxury in a Tesla, you don't get G-wagen off road ability in a Tesla, etc.  There isn't a convertible Tesla, etc.  There are things Mercedes already does with their lineup that they can electrify and offer something Tesla doesn't.  Likewise with VV group and others.

Daimler is the 3rd largest auto company in the world behind VW and Toyota, they have resources, they have a plan.  EV's are not big sellers right now, the key is to transition people from gas to electric which might take 20 years and eventually the whole line is EV.  Mercedes is in a great place right now, all those gas SUV's they are selling are making profit that Tesla doesn't have, and giving Mercedes ability to spend more on EV tech.

I already answered all that in my long post...with the exception of off roading capable EVs...

The thing is...Mercedes does not have an off-roading EV either... 

 

 

[oldshurst442]

PS:  About the Corvette C8...

The rumour is that GM makes money on an 80 000 C8 Vette.  They lose money below that. 

Ok...there is another rumour that the C8 is sold out already...  Or the allocation for the year is sold out...

Who is to say that the folk that saw the C8 and put a deposit on one went all nuts with the options and most if not all C8s sold will be over 80 000?    YOU make it sound like the Vette will be a money loser...   I say it will be a MASSIVE money maker right from the get go on its 1st year introduction...   Many people want this car...  The C8 no matter what price you pay for it, is a steal of a bargain for what you get for a supercar...