GM asks Congress to kickstart its heart with ambitious plan

[z28luvr01]

Harley, it's not a handout. It's a loan that GM will begin paying off in '11.

This is a great plan - GM appears to be taking the Ford approach and jettisoning all things that don't represent the core of GM. Of the three brands on the block, I'll miss Saab the most because I do have a soft spot for them, but better them than Pontiac or Buick. As far as Saturn and Hummer go, I hope the door doesn't hit them in the behind ont he way out.

How successful the plan will be depends on if they can unload all three and get a decent amount of coin for them. Hummer has been on the block for some time now and noone's bit yet. I'd say peddle it to Middle Eastern investors who pay pennies a gallon for gas. Saab and Satun should be easier sells given that they're more car-focused than Hummer.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

We are back to a waiting game again before we really know what this means.

First we will have to wait for Congress.

Then for specifics from GM.

Don't count any chickens yet.

My only worries about the whole Pontiac thing is the gray wording...

Does "reduced to a niche maker" mean a true performance division or does it mean "we're reducing Pontiac to a Mercury-like state in which it can be phased out if needed."

And by 'niche maker that compliments Buick and GMC' do they mean a tight line of truly desirable cars or a small line up of entry level rebadges? (Example: G3, G5, and Vibe)

Re: Saturn I really want Saturn to survive... Could GM maybe make it into a Scion-like division that focuses on small cars (like Saturn originally did) Offer 2 or 3 versions of the Corsa and/or Astra.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I know it's hard to look past what's in the present and immediate future, but Buick's potenital is great. It won't take a miracle to turn Buick around. Just the right product, brand identity, and marketing, IMHO.

+1

[Robert Hall]

Interesting...I notice PCS is strangely absent from these threads..keeping a low profile. By the way, that '63 GP in yer sig is goregous, Harley...

[saturnd00d]

Well this blows...My second vehicle will be an Astra 3-door however after that and my Vue are all used up, looks like I won't be buying anything else from GM. Since small cars will be reduced to simply chevrolet, I won't be sticking around. Aside from their trucks, chevrolet is low-tier. As for the rest of GM's divisions, they are simply out of my price-range.

I refuse to support GM after this crappy plan they came up with. Do people on this forum really expect Pontiac to make some miraculous comeback? Gone are the heritage days of Pontiac and Buick. I do hope Buick can somehow regain some footing, as their cars have always been great, however they are out of my pricerange anyways. Saturn's Opel-rebadges had promise. Heck, the vue I'm driving blows any of the other midsize CUV's out of the water, and I have the base XE. To not have the option of buying another Opel-based product new in North America, I have lost all confidence with GM. I am one of the consumers that wouldn't have considered a new GM vehicle save for Saturn. I love GM trucks, but aside from that, their cars have been lacking for so long, I would never trust my hard-earned money buying one new. Looks like I'll be going back to the thought of buying import again, after my Vue and future (used) Astra are finished. Good luck GM, because you just lost another consumer.

Edited December 3, 2008 by saturnd00d

[Camino LS6]

Sorry you feel that way Saturndood, but think it through. What you like at Saturn will still be available, most likely, under another name. Opel isn't going anywhere.

You'll find quite a bit of animosity directed at Saturn around here (from me, for example), but it has nothing to do with the current cars and everything to do with the damage done to GM for the benefit of the Saturn brand. Some terrible prices have been paid to give Saturn quite a few chances to "get there" and it never happened.

And hey, nothing is a done deal just yet.

[Drew Dowdell]

Interesting...I notice PCS is strangely absent from these threads..keeping a low profile. By the way, that '63 GP in yer sig is goregous, Harley...

Last Seen: 27th November 2008 - 01:18 PM

[Drew Dowdell]

Well this blows...My second vehicle will be an Astra 3-door however after that and my Vue are all used up, looks like I won't be buying anything else from GM. Since small cars will be reduced to simply chevrolet, I won't be sticking around. Aside from their trucks, chevrolet is low-tier. As for the rest of GM's divisions, they are simply out of my price-range.

I refuse to support GM after this crappy plan they came up with. Do people on this forum really expect Pontiac to make some miraculous comeback? Gone are the heritage days of Pontiac and Buick. I do hope Buick can somehow regain some footing, as their cars have always been great, however they are out of my pricerange anyways. Saturn's Opel-rebadges had promise. Heck, the vue I'm driving blows any of the other midsize CUV's out of the water, and I have the base XE. To not have the option of buying another Opel-based product new in North America, I have lost all confidence with GM. I am one of the consumers that wouldn't have considered a new GM vehicle save for Saturn. I love GM trucks, but aside from that, their cars have been lacking for so long, I would never trust my hard-earned money buying one new. Looks like I'll be going back to the thought of buying import again, after my Vue and future (used) Astra are finished. Good luck GM, because you just lost another consumer.

Personally, I think the sale/killing of Saturn is the least likely part of this whole plan.

[saturnd00d]

I understand that Camino, but I see things differently. I know that most on this forum despise Saturn for even being created, but in their day, they offered more to the consumer than other brands, both GM and otherwise. Polymer was awesome, the s-series offered leather seating, great gas mileage, futuristic styling (at the time) and a few options like rear disc brakes, etc. that weren't even offered on other cars in their class.

GM starved Saturn of R&D money and pretty much let them run themselves into the ground. Of course the brand never got to evolve, it was never given a fighting chance. To me, it had everything to do with mis-management more so than anything else.

So within the last few years GM decides to pump more money in Saturn. They revitalize the entire lineup with Opel rebadges (save for the outlook), which all happen to be great, solid cars. Finally, the kind of cars that GM can be proud of. But, because GM starved Saturn's retailers for so long, their independent dealer network is small and sparse. Aside from that, you give all the advertising money to other, more developed brands, and the little bit that;s given to Saturn goes into web ads on yahoo, or 20 second TV spots advertising the whole Saturn lineup without actually saying antyhing about the cars in specific.

Sorry, to me, it has always looked like they tried to have Saturn run on fumes instead of a full tank of gas. If GM, however, was able to keep Saturn going throughout its prime, it would have developed into a volume division. It would have grown into a chevrolet brand, but with more exciting cars. It's too bad really, since I've liked them from the beginning and truly appreciated what they stood for. Sure, they lost their focus, but what brand in GM didn't?

Ah well, at least 90% of you on this forum are happy. You got to keep a dying and ailing Pontiac for the time being. Let's hope the rest of North America appreciates it as well, because for some reason, I don't think they will.

[saturnd00d]

Personally, I think the sale/killing of Saturn is the least likely part of this whole plan.

I tend to disagree. As much as I don't want to see them go, I don't think GM will keep them anymore. I also don't think GM will be using Opel in partnership with any of the NA brands after Saturn ceases to exist. They failed to give Saturn any good marketing, and that coupled with a small-spread of dealerships is what I believe killed Saturn. I see it that way, but I doubt GM realizes their own fault in that scenario. To them, it just looks like they brought over Opels under the Saturn Moniker, and it didn't work. I believe, as well, that they won't try importing Opels under any other brand either.

[Camino LS6]

If Saturn had never existed as a separate entity, and the good ideas behind it had been implemented at the lower end of the core brands, we might not even be in this mess right now.

That's where the rub is.

I think GM would continue Saturn if it were financially possible, but they are hamstrung by the small dealer network of stand-alone stores, and it would take another huge infusion of cash to even make a decent run at the problem. Saturn has cost GM dearly since the beginning, and keeping the brand now doesn't look feasible no matter what other brands would be cancelled to do so.

Also, the plan indicates that Opels would make their way to Buick - so the actual cars may not be lost at all.

Too early to tell.

[saturnd00d]

Even if Opel comes here to Buick's lineup, that's great for Buick. I'm glad that it would get great product such as that, and I'm sure it will give Buick the boost it needs to thrive. Kind of irrelevant for me though, since Buicks are out of my pricerange, so it wouldn't have as much of an impact on me as it would others.

[smk4565]

I like this plan, dump the dead weight.

Buick only sells 7,000 vehicles a month, so I don't see how that is really a "core brand" and GMC is all rebadges so they could kill GMC too. Buick is the natural fit for a line between Chevy and Cadillac, but it may be too late to restore brand image, that really needed to be done years ago. Buick needs to get like Lincoln fast and modernize with technology in their cars.

GM's reputation is shot right now, unless they hit home runs on every product launch they are in trouble. They should extend warranties too, at least 6/72,000 bumper to bumper on the lower brands and 10/100,000 bumper to bumper on Cadillac.

[daves87rs]

GM's reputation is shot right now, unless they hit home runs on every product launch they are in trouble. They should extend warranties too, at least 6/72,000 bumper to bumper on the lower brands and 10/100,000 bumper to bumper on Cadillac.

With as many cars as GM sells, I'm not sure that might be a good idea....

KIA may do it, not they don't sell nearly as many cars...and it cost them dearly at first....

[Intrepidation]

I like this plan, dump the dead weight.

Buick only sells 7,000 vehicles a month, so I don't see how that is really a "core brand" and GMC is all rebadges so they could kill GMC too. Buick is the natural fit for a line between Chevy and Cadillac, but it may be too late to restore brand image, that really needed to be done years ago. Buick needs to get like Lincoln fast and modernize with technology in their cars.

GM's reputation is shot right now, unless they hit home runs on every product launch they are in trouble. They should extend warranties too, at least 6/72,000 bumper to bumper on the lower brands and 10/100,000 bumper to bumper on Cadillac.

Buick is successful in China, that makes it international and more of a core brand because it is sold in more markets than N/A.

[Camino LS6]

Buick is core in a literal fashion, GM was built around it in the first place. For sales in NA, it certainly is not, and then there is China...

I imagine that GM would be unwilling to kill Buick under any circumstance, and I guess I have to respect that - or be branded as a hypocrite.

There just really isn't much in the way of a viable business case for it here anymore.

That will have to change in short order.

[smk4565]

Cadillac's should be built to last, so a 10 year warranty shouldn't be that big a deal. Engineer it better than Mercedes, build with higher quality than Lexus. And no more rebates on Cadillacs, ever. Low interest rate financing is the only incentive they should offer, along with the a bumper to bumper warranty double the competition. If Cadillac gets the reputation of the best built, longest lasting car, resale value will go up and people won't be afraid to buy one without $5,000 cash back + invoice price.

The Buicks sold in China share nothing in common with the Buicks sold here. They are like 2 separate divisions both using the same badge. If they can make the same basic car to sell around the globe, with modifications made to fit specific regions, then they have a viable business plan for Buick.

[Intrepidation]

The Buicks sold in China share nothing in common with the Buicks sold here. They are like 2 separate divisions both using the same badge. If they can make the same basic car to sell around the globe, with modifications made to fit specific regions, then they have a viable business plan for Buick.

You must have missed the memo where several months ago they said that is exactly what would be happening: Buick China and Buick N/A would be working together for future Buick products.

[deftonesfan867]

smk reminds me of Buzz Killington..

[smk4565]

GM needed to face disaster to force a change. I knew 2 years ago they needed to shed brands fast, and that the Lambdas were too big, G8 would tank (285 days worth of inventory), and that the Malibu, CTS, Lambdas, etc though improved still had to be better. The Enclave was down over 40% this month, sold only 2,000, CTS was down 48%, sold under 3,000 units. GM once bragged about these being hot models, a year on the market and they are duds.

This is the wake up call GM needed, and they'll be better off in the long term because of it. GM is going to go through hell for another year, but they'll be back lean and strong, and can focus on quality, not quantity. If they only have 25-30 models to worry about, they can build the best cars in the world. If they do this right, (basically blow it up and start over) GM will be great again.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Well this blows...My second vehicle will be an Astra 3-door however after that and my Vue are all used up, looks like I won't be buying anything else from GM. Since small cars will be reduced to simply chevrolet, I won't be sticking around. Aside from their trucks, chevrolet is low-tier. As for the rest of GM's divisions, they are simply out of my price-range.

I refuse to support GM after this crappy plan they came up with. Do people on this forum really expect Pontiac to make some miraculous comeback? Gone are the heritage days of Pontiac and Buick. I do hope Buick can somehow regain some footing, as their cars have always been great, however they are out of my pricerange anyways. Saturn's Opel-rebadges had promise. Heck, the vue I'm driving blows any of the other midsize CUV's out of the water, and I have the base XE. To not have the option of buying another Opel-based product new in North America, I have lost all confidence with GM. I am one of the consumers that wouldn't have considered a new GM vehicle save for Saturn. I love GM trucks, but aside from that, their cars have been lacking for so long, I would never trust my hard-earned money buying one new. Looks like I'll be going back to the thought of buying import again, after my Vue and future (used) Astra are finished. Good luck GM, because you just lost another consumer.

Don't give up just yet...

GM said it would evaluate Saturn (and Saab and Hummer for that matter) Nothing is set in stone.

I personally hope GM keeps Saturn. Sell Hummer and Saab.

[Chicagoland]

Saturn's been losing $$ for decades, and the 'snobs' who cant buy a good Chevy just 'cuz of the name can go pay $$$ to Korean makes. [in fact old J cars are outlasting old SL's] And yes importing Opels with Euro costs was a flop, but not sharing platforms world wide.

Buick is a core brand, since GM is a global company, China adds many #'s to the 7000 sold in US. Look at the big picture, not just your local auto mall.

GMC makes $$$, and that is what matters most.

[titan]

Yeah, having the Acadia and Enclave in the same showroom was a dumb move. My personal belief is that they should follow through with an open-bed Lambda and make that the next-gen Acadia.

Damn. That's a damn good idea. It's a way to use the Lambda, spreading costs; yet won't compete with the Enclave (or Traverse, for that matter). Also, it provides a smaller, crossover based alternative to the Avalanche and gives GM a direct competitor to the Honda Ridgeline. It also gives GM a "right size" truck to compete with Ford's upcoming F-100 (though the F-100 won't be crossover based). That's a very good idea...

[Daryl Z71]

As for scaling back the dealerships The one dealer here TEAM Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac just bought the Pontiac, GMC dealer (Jabbco Maggi) Now its called TEAM Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, GMC.

[regfootball]

seems to me GM has to have these brands somewhere globally (i.e. essential)

Chevy

Daewoo (not in US)

Buick

Opel (who gets the Opels in the US)

next is a brand that i think somewhat is grey (the aussies can jump in here)

Holden

what's next is the deal. i have for a while now said pontiac could exist with a g6 line (torana?), g8 line (commodore), and the solstice. is this niche? to me, it says 'g8 remains' which also to me says holden big rwd cars will get a stay of execution for a few years. At a minimum, this buys time for GM to simply rebuild this brand over time without so much pressure. Maybe it will get cultlike status like Harley or BMW now? WHo knows.

So i think Pontiac will stay in the US. What is less clear is Saturn. I find saturn's line to be the most appealing for affordable GM stuff as a whole right now. It's all good and now they want to tank the brand? Saturn has the best customer experience of nearly all brands and GM will throw it away? Sounds like GM. Anywho. So now we know the Opel Insignia is not a Saturn anymore most likely and rumor is its a Buick. I do not feel Buick can get Saturn buyers. The lines are fuzzy between what Pontiac had hoped would be their buyers and who Saturn's buyers are. Personally a know more than a handful of folks who have shopped Saturns lately but not many Pontiac buyers. Basically the critical part of the puzzle is who gets the Opels? If Saturn goes, which division gets the Astra, Antara, and Insignia and apparently no Corsa.

Saab and Hummer are more or less inconsequential right now, although Hummer has tremendous potential and Saab i always have liked but lets face it, there just may not be room anymore.

Without reading 37 pages of fluff, I am struggling to find how this fixes the product assortment (i.e. more desirable small and mid size cars, more choices to compete with Lexus, Infiniti and the Germans, and overall new products to market).

GMC is all rebadges and hinges upon whether other brands are merged into Chevy's dealer network IMHO.

With this plan, not fully knowing what to do with Saab and Hummer, they can still keep doing what they are doing which is to basically tack them on to Caddy showrooms.

I almost wish they would sell damn Opels here, maybe in the Caddy showrooms. Then it would really clean things up. Chevy, Opel, Buick, Cadillac.

Its starting to feel like Saturn is the odd man out but seriously that isn't getting rid of the overlap like it simply would to fold BPG into and on top of Chevy. Then ditch Saab and have Opel / Cadillac or Saturn / Cadillac.

Edited December 3, 2008 by regfootball

[regfootball]

oy vey my head hurts

[regfootball]

does buick get the next 9-5?

[thegriffon]

Expect GM to sell only a part of Saab, retaining slightly more than 50%, as they do GM Daewoo. Initially the rest may go to the Swedish government in return for assistance. Note that Saab will be building the 3-door Astra in addition to the Delta-based 9-1 and 9-3. Whether they stay in the US market, or keep producing a midsize 9-5 model is another matter. Of course, the "new" direction for Saab may simply be in focus, perhaps the "green" luxury brand BMW has been considering. With a focus on downsizing the next generation, aerodynamics, BioPower engines, and the BioHybrid concepts, they're halfway there already. They just need to change the marketing focus and build a 9-e using the E-Flex system.

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned, since it actually is in GM's plan, unlike so much other stuff that has been reported:

The Beat.

[BuddyP]

You must have missed the memo where several months ago they said that is exactly what would be happening: Buick China and Buick N/A would be working together for future Buick products.

Great... so actually Buick will be the first Chinese vehicle sold in the US.... (Very disgusted!)

[RBB]

Great... so actually Buick will be the first Chinese vehicle sold in the US.... (Very disgusted!)

Chinese Buick's current lineup:

Enclave - NA designed, same as US-spec Enclave

Park Avenue - Australian designed, rebadged Holden Commodore

Lacrosse - Chinese designed W-body. Considered by many to be far superior to the US-Spec Lacrosse. Not likely to come to the US.

Regal - European designed, rebadged Opel Insignia

Excelle - Korean designed, rebadged Daewoo Kalos. Buick NA *may* get a version on the vastly improved Delta II platform, but as far as I know nothing is approved.

GL8 - Euro/NA designed, Chinese rebadged Minivan, similar to the defunct Buick Terraza. Will not make its way to the states.

But yeah, Buick NA's gonna turn into Chinese-made crap.

-RBB

[titan]

what's next is the deal. i have for a while now said pontiac could exist with a g6 line (torana?), g8 line (commodore), and the solstice. is this niche? to me, it says 'g8 remains' which also to me says holden big rwd cars will get a stay of execution for a few years. At a minimum, this buys time for GM to simply rebuild this brand over time without so much pressure. Maybe it will get cultlike status like Harley or BMW now? WHo knows.

Thant won't happen. Read the report... I've seen a few posts where your suggestion comes into play, but it won't happen. Pontiac won't get any warmed over rebadge sedans anymore, I think; especially not the G6. With the success of the Malibu, it'll be every easy for Chevy to sell a "sporty" model of it, similar to how Toyota does the same with it's Camry. GM stately that basically their going to keep Pontiac alive, but it will not step on the toes of it's big four brands (Chevy,Caddy,Buick,GMC), let alone step on the toes of brands it shares showroom space with (Buick,GMC). Pontiac will shrink to two or three specialized, very sporty performance models. My guess is all coupes, and all RWD for sure.

[longtooth]

Great... so actually Buick will be the first Chinese vehicle sold in the US.... (Very disgusted!)

Access to the lucrative North American market as (or is would that be if?) it recovers.

That's globalism as it compares to say Multi-Port fuel injection.

Direct-Injected Globalism would be the elimination of (the illusion of) autonomous self-governance.

Essentially becoming an extension of a global entity.

In a generation and one half from now, no one will know the difference in this homogenized polyglot world of ours.

[smk4565]

I always hear "GMC makes money" but GM has lost $70 billion over the last 4 years, none of these brands are making money. To me GMC is just competition for Chevy, and if GMC is going to make SUVs one step up from Chevy, isn't that what Buick is for with the Enclave. If GMC stays, it should be medium duty trucks, and commercial/fleet pickups and vans.

[Robert Hall]

I always hear "GMC makes money" but GM has lost $70 billion over the last 4 years, none of these brands are making money. To me GMC is just competition for Chevy, and if GMC is going to make SUVs one step up from Chevy, isn't that what Buick is for with the Enclave. If GMC stays, it should be medium duty trucks, and commercial/fleet pickups and vans.

Apparently, though there are truck and SUV buyers that won't buy a Chevy (too mass-market) but will buy a GMC (perceived as more upscale). Which shows the power of effective marketing, considering the trivial cosmetic differences between Chevy and GMC trucks and SUVs.

I would assume Chevy has the higher percentage of medium duty, commercial/fleet pickups and vans than GMC?

[I hope GMRULES again]

I'm glad Pontiac is going to survive for now. My computer was down last night so I wasn't able to get the full details of the plan until this morning at work. The only news I got last night was on TV and they said GM would be concentrating on its 4 core brands then they showed an old 80's commercial of a Fiero with the We Build Excitement tag line and said Pontiac was dead. Then i saw some A hole on CNBC say that he hoped the 3 CEO's were driving Toyota's to Washington so they wouldn't have to worry about breaking down. Needless to say i didn't get much sleep last night.

What car are they referring to on page 22 of the plan where it says they plan to introduce this market's smallest 4 passenger vehicle, achieving higher fuel economy than the 2 passenger Smart ForTwo?

[Robert Hall]

they referring to on page 22 of the plan where it says they plan to introduce this market's smallest 4 passenger vehicle, achieving higher fuel economy than the 2 passenger Smart ForTwo?

Well, they certainly have existing tiny fuel efficient micro cars they can get from Chevywoo (Matiz) or Suzuki...maybe they plan on federalizing one of them. Or maybe they plan to bring the Beat or whatever (the micro Chevy world car under development) here.

Edited December 3, 2008 by moltar

[I hope GMRULES again]

That's what I'm hoping for.

[balthazar]

smk- There is far more to the Corp bottom line that just revenue vs. cost. Healthcare & retirement costs ring any bells? GM has stated certain brands & models ARE making money even tho they do not report them independantly (tho right now that's all up in the air due to the climate)

moltar- this is the first time I've read of recent 'effective marketing' by GM (WRT GMC); all I've ever read in the last few years is that GM marketing is the complete & utter pits- how could it only be working here? Perhaps there are enough real differences that the consumer has spoken with his wallet (a few years ago GMC was moving over 590K units). And IMO, the bottom line speaks far louder than the random theory.

There is as much... I hesitate to call it animosity... between GMC & Chevy truck buyers as there is between any other 2 brands you care to mention. It would be easy to dismiss the phenom if GMC wasn't selling in such lofty volumes (still near 400K this year).

[smk4565]

Apparently, though there are truck and SUV buyers that won't buy a Chevy (too mass-market) but will buy a GMC (perceived as more upscale). Which shows the power of effective marketing, considering the trivial cosmetic differences between Chevy and GMC trucks and SUVs.

I would assume Chevy has the higher percentage of medium duty, commercial/fleet pickups and vans than GMC?

Extra marketing costs money, GM doesn't have money. GMC could do the business to business sales, with very little advertising. People only pick GMC now because they have a choice and can price shop Chevy against GMC. If GMC didn't exist, those buyers would go to Chevy (or other GM brand), because Chevy makes the same vehicle. The alternative is Ford or Toyota, which is rather different from GMC.

I just worry that if GMC stays, it will be a brand a of badge jobs and that is what got GM into this mess in the first place. Likewise with Pontiac.

[ShadowDog]

My only worries about the whole Pontiac thing is the gray wording...

Does "reduced to a niche maker" mean a true performance division or does it mean "we're reducing Pontiac to a Mercury-like state in which it can be phased out if needed."

And by 'niche maker that compliments Buick and GMC' do they mean a tight line of truly desirable cars or a small line up of entry level rebadges? (Example: G3, G5, and Vibe)

Look to a small lineup of entry-level rebadges for Pontiac. GM won't have excess to play with for R&D on niche vehicles. Mass production has always meant shared platforms for reduced costs, so building what would essentially be considered a new brand would be too expensive right now. All I can imagine is taking the cars we have and installing bolt-on performance items, call it a Pontiac version and move on to the next one.

[balthazar]

>>"People only pick GMC now because they have a choice and can price shop Chevy against GMC."<<

B-b-but GMCs are MORE expensive that Chevy trucks- how would that account for 400K people chosing GMC over Chevy if they are "identical" ??

>>"If GMC didn't exist, those buyers would go to Chevy... because Chevy makes the same vehicle."<<

Many said the same thing about Oldsmobile / Buick. See the folly of the gamble this time ??

>>"I just worry that if GMC stays, it will be a brand a of badge jobs and that is what got GM into this mess in the first place."<<

Sorry, but GMC works on the balance sheet- it did not contribute to any 'mess'.

[BuddyP]

I'm glad Pontiac is going to survive for now. My computer was down last night so I wasn't able to get the full details of the plan until this morning at work. The only news I got last night was on TV and they said GM would be concentrating on its 4 core brands then they showed an old 80's commercial of a Fiero with the We Build Excitement tag line and said Pontiac was dead. Then i saw some A hole on CNBC say that he hoped the 3 CEO's were driving Toyota's to Washington so they wouldn't have to worry about breaking down. Needless to say i didn't get much sleep last night.

What car are they referring to on page 22 of the plan where it says they plan to introduce this market's smallest 4 passenger vehicle, achieving higher fuel economy than the 2 passenger Smart ForTwo?

The media is going to do what it has done best... and kill GM. They dont' have a chance with today's media and complete and total lack of knowledge from the media and Congress. Am currently listening to Foxnews talk radio and was Flabbergasted with on "Brian and the judge", Brian made a comment of Wagoner driving a Malibu and then Judge Andrew says "is that the type of behicle that Schwartzenager drives" (meaning a Hummer). WTF? Are you kidding me? And another lady that worked for Chrystler called in and mentioned something about the Challenger 6.1L and he says "what's that". And after listening to all the uninformed callers I really came to realize the total lack of perception GM still has. They still build cars that are "out of date", "unefficient" and that "nobody wants to buy" (even though GM is #1 in sales).

[Robert Hall]

I just worry that if GMC stays, it will be a brand a of badge jobs and that is what got GM into this mess in the first place.

That's what GMC has been at least the 40 years.... it's only recently that GMC has had differentiation beyond grilles and badging.

[Robert Hall]

moltar- this is the first time I've read of recent 'effective marketing' by GM (WRT GMC); all I've ever read in the last few years is that GM marketing is the complete & utter pits- how could it only be working here? Perhaps there are enough real differences that the consumer has spoken with his wallet (a few years ago GMC was moving over 590K units). And IMO, the bottom line speaks far louder than the random theory.

There is as much... I hesitate to call it animosity... between GMC & Chevy truck buyers as there is between any other 2 brands you care to mention. It would be easy to dismiss the phenom if GMC wasn't selling in such lofty volumes (still near 400K this year).

Who knows, but I believe the typical GMC buyer may not the same as be the typical Chevy buyer and would necessarily cross shop the brands...

Purely anecdote, but I do know a couple friends that bought GMCs (a Yukon and an Envoy XL)--their wive's cars are an Audi A6 sedan and a Lexus RX--somehow, I just couldn't see them having bought a Tahoe or a TrailBlazer..

[Camino LS6]

That's what GMC has been at least the 40 years.... it's only recently that GMC has had differentiation beyond grilles and badging.

Not entirely true.

GMC has offered both drivetrains and entire models not duplicated at Chevy quite a few times over the years.

Yes, they have been very close for the most part, but that is not the whole story.

[Drew Dowdell]

Extra marketing costs money, GM doesn't have money. GMC could do the business to business sales, with very little advertising. People only pick GMC now because they have a choice and can price shop Chevy against GMC. If GMC didn't exist, those buyers would go to Chevy (or other GM brand), because Chevy makes the same vehicle. The alternative is Ford or Toyota, which is rather different from GMC.

Truck buyers are a fickle lot. The costs associated with badging GMC are probably the least of any division. If GMC lets GM sell trucks to people who wouldn't buy Chevies, and at a higher price point, then I'm all for it.

I just worry that if GMC stays, it will be a brand a of badge jobs.

What do you think they've been since at least 1947?

[Drew Dowdell]

Not entirely true.

GMC has offered both drivetrains and entire models not duplicated at Chevy quite a few times over the years.

Yes, they have been very close for the most part, but that is not the whole story.

Of all the divisions out there, they are the most "badge job".

[Robert Hall]

Not entirely true.

GMC has offered both drivetrains and entire models not duplicated at Chevy quite a few times over the years.

Yes, they have been very close for the most part, but that is not the whole story.

Yes, they have the Acadia now, had the Envoy w/ the bed, the Denali trim levels, had the Typhoon and Syclone in the '90s. And the unique V6 in the '50s-60s.

But by and large, GMCs have been nothing but rebadged Chevies for decades...the biggest differences are in the marketing. What amazes me is consumers don't see them for what they are.

[Camino LS6]

There have been many examples where GMC took a given truck to a place that Chevy never dared - almost like tuner versions. I think that has helped GMC remain so strong in sales over the decades, it has given customers a sense of greater attention to detail vs. Chevy. This perception has even acted as a halo for the great many models that are nothing more than styling variations or badge jobs.

Through the years, GMC has won in the looks category more often than not. Even I like the choice they offer when it comes to appearance - as it seems much of the public does.

All of it adds up to a brand that works exceptionally well for GM's bottom line.

Put it in the "odd, but true" category.

[smk4565]

>>"People only pick GMC now because they have a choice and can price shop Chevy against GMC."<<

B-b-but GMCs are MORE expensive that Chevy trucks- how would that account for 400K people chosing GMC over Chevy if they are "identical" ??

>>"If GMC didn't exist, those buyers would go to Chevy... because Chevy makes the same vehicle."<<

Many said the same thing about Oldsmobile / Buick. See the folly of the gamble this time ??

>>"I just worry that if GMC stays, it will be a brand a of badge jobs and that is what got GM into this mess in the first place."<<

Sorry, but GMC works on the balance sheet- it did not contribute to any 'mess'.

GMCs aren't more money, Sierra is $19,020 base, Silverado is $19,550, Silverado LTZ is $42k, Sierra SLT is $41k. Canyon is $16,905, Colorado is $18,555. The Yukon is $10 less than a Tahoe. The Acadia is more than a Traverse because of more standard equipment. GMC is competition for Chevy, and therefor has to offer products unlike Chevy, or be gone.

Buick and Olds did not make identical vehicles like GMC and Chevy do. Olds had more refined DOHC engines, sportier suspensions and more technology than Buick. LaCrosse/Lucerne don't handle as well as Intrigue/Aurora and if you had the DOHC 3.5 or 4.0 you won't want a 3800. If Buick's current lineup was similar to Lincoln or Acura, they may have captured more Olds buyers.