RWD Cadillac Flagship Back On Track, Plus Two New Buicks Approved

[daves87rs]

No more personal attacks.

Exactly.

[daves87rs]

I don't believe a word of this rumor. Cadillac's lineup 3 years from now will be the CTS, Epsilon II XTS, SRX, probably a Lambda Escalade, and hopefully an Alpha (but I wouldn't be surprised if that is 5 or 6 years away). After last week's Caprice debacle, I'm not believing any of this - even if Bob Lutz announces it.

Nope. That's all I'm going to say.......

[Cmicasa the Great]

Don't invest too much in the rear-drive Caddy becoming a reality at the moment, is all I'm going to say ... :AH-HA_wink:

Chug-a-lug-lug on that GM Koolaid. I bet you thought that the Caprice was actually going to happen too, huh? :rotflmao:

I warn you, you are going to be disappointed. Keep your mind open and take the rumors you hear about future GM products with a grain of salt. Don't invest too much hope in what you hear. I used to be a bigger GM fan than you were, then I started to wake up to the ugly reality that surrounds GM like stink on $h!.

Not at all.. I actually believed that the IMPALA should continue being a FWD vehicle with AWD as an option... Sorta like a "Lacrosse lite" but with focus on family and sport while the Lacrosse focused on family and luxo. I'm sorry but I simply don;t see Impala type sales in a RWD vehicle. FWD/AWD LWB EpII would yield 150K+ sales even with the Malibu selling right next to it on a SWB EpII platform after it's MCE.

I'm a GM fan absolutely.. but don't pretend U kno me slim.

[Blake Noble]

Not at all.. I actually believed that the IMPALA should continue being a FWD vehicle with AWD as an option... Sorta like a "Lacrosse lite" but with focus on family and sport while the Lacrosse focused on family and luxo. I'm sorry but I simply don;t see Impala type sales in a RWD vehicle. FWD/AWD LWB EpII would yield 150K+ sales even with the Malibu selling right next to it on a SWB EpII platform after it's MCE.

Who says the Impala has to sell in the millions or even the hundreds of thousands? That should be the Malibu's goal. The Impala is Chevrolet's top-tier sedan, or at least it should be. It should be a flagship car offering the best styling and driving dynamics and clear advantages over a comparable Malibu, positioned in a niche role with strictly limited fleet sales. (Speaking of fleet sales, that's where a good chunk of W-Body Impala sales are at.) It should bridge the gap between Chevrolet and Buick and do it correctly.

I understand you have your opinion and I'm not going to convince you otherwise of it, but you have to admit that having two similarly sized front-wheel drive Camcord competitors in the same showroom with no clear advantage over the other and appealing to the same sort of buyer is redundant. It's overlap and it has no place at GM.

I'm a GM fan absolutely.. but don't pretend U kno me slim.

Oh I don't and I'm not. But I know a fanboy when I spot one. :AH-HA_wink:

[black02]

RWD is best for handling.

Sure. But not best for fastest track time, which was the original discussion (CTS-V versus Panamera).

[Cmicasa the Great]

Who says the Impala has to sell in the millions or even the hundreds of thousands? That should be the Malibu's goal. The Impala is Chevrolet's top-tier sedan, or at least it should be. It should be a flagship car offering the best styling and driving dynamics and clear advantages over a comparable Malibu, positioned in a niche role with strictly limited fleet sales. (Speaking of fleet sales, that's where a good chunk of W-Body Impala sales are at.) It should bridge the gap between Chevrolet and Buick and do it correctly.

I understand you have your opinion and I'm not going to convince you otherwise of it, but you have to admit that having two similarly sized front-wheel drive Camcord competitors in the same showroom with no clear advantage over the other and appealing to the same sort of buyer is redundant. It's overlap and it has no place at GM.

Currently... yeah I could see where U are coming from with the Impala being similar in size to the Malibu.. but keeping the Malibu on a SWB EpII platform and pushing the Impala onto a LWB platform... as a less luxo, sportier Lacrosse sister would be perfect.. and bridge the gap perfectly. If the G8 were still turned into the Caprice.. STILL.. cool.. but some upgrades would need to be made in the interior/tech to make it a better competitor. Also... quiet as it's kept... the Accord is really no longer a Camry competitor b size.

Oh I don't and I'm not. But I know a fanboy when I spot one. :AH-HA_wink:

I admitted as much.. and am proud of it. That's why I put my money, which could have bought any other brand in any other segment or price range, where my mouth is.

[Blake Noble]

Currently... yeah I could see where U are coming from with the Impala being similar in size to the Malibu.. but keeping the Malibu on a SWB EpII platform and pushing the Impala onto a LWB platform... as a less luxo, sportier Lacrosse sister would be perfect.. and bridge the gap perfectly. If the G8 were still turned into the Caprice.. STILL.. cool.. but some upgrades would need to be made in the interior/tech to make it a better competitor.

Decontenting the LaCrosse for Chevrolet duty is still half-assing the job.

Also... quiet as it's kept... the Accord is really no longer a Camry competitor b size.

This is invalid. Yes, it is technically classified as a "full-sized" car now, but the Accord's main competition is still identified as the Camry, Altima, Malibu, etc.

I admitted as much.. and am proud of it. That's why I put my money, which could have bought any other brand in any other segment or price range, where my mouth is.

Good for you.

I've also put my money where my mouth is: I don't buy new GM cars. I'm sticking with old GM iron, cars that GM built back when it gave a $h!, and considering the few cars that GM built quite well back when it didn't (it still doesn't).

[cire]

I just read the original Motor Trend article again. Based on their wording and their history for reporting unsubstantiated speculation and rumor just to attract attention (and hopefully sell copies and advertising), I wouldn't put a lot of trust in the "facts" or "info" in this article.

Buick Delta II Based Sedan: This sedan will be a Buick-ized version of the next generation Astra sedan, not a rebadged Chevy Cruze with modified front/rear styling. Motor Trend and some other automotive media sources seem to be determined to make this car the second coming of the Cimarron. I don't believe it will be. It will have its own distinct exterior styling (like the spy shots suggest) and unique interior design (like the upcoming next gen Astra 5-door).

Cadillac Flagship Sedan: Motor Trend speculates that the Flagship sedan is not Zeta based because the project code has changed. That doesn't automatically mean that the sedan will end up on a stretched Sigma platform either. It might mean that this sedan could end up on a combo of the Sigma and Zeta architectures (wasn't there a rumor some time ago that GM was considering merging these 2 platforms?). I don't think Motor Trend really knows for sure. They're just doing the same thing that we do on these forums: speculating.

I'm waiting to hear or read something about these projects that is more concrete and substantiated than speculation from a desperate auto magazine that specializes in homespun rumor.

[Robert Hall]

Cadillac Flagship Sedan: Motor Trend speculates that the Flagship sedan is not Zeta based because the project code has changed. That doesn't automatically mean that the sedan will end up on a stretched Sigma platform either. It might mean that this sedan could end up on a combo of the Sigma and Zeta architectures (wasn't there a rumor some time ago that GM was considering merging these 2 platforms?). I don't think Motor Trend really knows for sure. They're just doing the same thing that we do on these forums: speculating.

Maybe it will be Sigma-Epsilon II based...merge both...end up w/ transverse V6 w/ RWD..

One source says LWB Epsilon II, another source says RWD but in unspecific as to the platform. I guess we just have to wait and see what happens. So are the STS and DTS both still around for MY '10?

Rob

Edited July 21, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Intrepidation]

Currently... yeah I could see where U are coming from with the Impala being similar in size to the Malibu.. but keeping the Malibu on a SWB EpII platform and pushing the Impala onto a LWB platform... as a less luxo, sportier Lacrosse sister would be perfect.. and bridge the gap perfectly. If the G8 were still turned into the Caprice.. STILL.. cool.. but some upgrades would need to be made in the interior/tech to make it a better competitor. Also... quiet as it's kept... the Accord is really no longer a Camry competitor b size.

I completelty disagree about the G8 needing an interior upgrade, as do the auto rags:

http://www.edmunds.com/pontiac/g8/2009/review.html

Pros

Sharp handling, firm but compliant ride, muscle-car power with either V8, spacious rear seat, sets a new Pontiac standard for interior design and quality.

[hyperv6]

I just read the original Motor Trend article again. Based on their wording and their history for reporting unsubstantiated speculation and rumor just to attract attention (and hopefully sell copies and advertising), I wouldn't put a lot of trust in the "facts" or "info" in this article.

Buick Delta II Based Sedan: This sedan will be a Buick-ized version of the next generation Astra sedan, not a rebadged Chevy Cruze with modified front/rear styling. Motor Trend and some other automotive media sources seem to be determined to make this car the second coming of the Cimarron. I don't believe it will be. It will have its own distinct exterior styling (like the spy shots suggest) and unique interior design (like the upcoming next gen Astra 5-door).

Cadillac Flagship Sedan: Motor Trend speculates that the Flagship sedan is not Zeta based because the project code has changed. That doesn't automatically mean that the sedan will end up on a stretched Sigma platform either. It might mean that this sedan could end up on a combo of the Sigma and Zeta architectures (wasn't there a rumor some time ago that GM was considering merging these 2 platforms?). I don't think Motor Trend really knows for sure. They're just doing the same thing that we do on these forums: speculating.

I'm waiting to hear or read something about these projects that is more concrete and substantiated than speculation from a desperate auto magazine that specializes in homespun rumor.

One of the few smart ones here!!!! Like I said to many panicing over what they really don't know.

[hyperv6]

Currently... yeah I could see where U are coming from with the Impala being similar in size to the Malibu.. but keeping the Malibu on a SWB EpII platform and pushing the Impala onto a LWB platform... as a less luxo, sportier Lacrosse sister would be perfect.. and bridge the gap perfectly. If the G8 were still turned into the Caprice.. STILL.. cool.. but some upgrades would need to be made in the interior/tech to make it a better competitor. Also... quiet as it's kept... the Accord is really no longer a Camry competitor b size.

I admitted as much.. and am proud of it. That's why I put my money, which could have bought any other brand in any other segment or price range, where my mouth is.

There is a place for the Impala and Malibu jsut as Ford has the Fusion and Taurus.

The workhorse cars of the future are going to be the Malibu and Fusion. With their price, size and economy they fit what most buyers are looking for. The Impala will jsut compliment it. I just hope GM does not get crazy and price the Impala out like the Taurus. I may be wrong but the price on the top end models puts it in a class where there are just better cars to buy.

The Future update to the Malibu will be very important. They will need to build on what they started. The next car has to be best in class in all areas and no short cuts. Also they need to be spot on with the price in class. This car will be the profit center at Chevy and it needs to be the best of the best in class.

[ZL-1]

Why are they giving Buick a Cruze?

I think they're giving Buick an Astra sedan, not a Cruze.

the astra has the front quarter windows.

The sedan mule shot in Europe and ID-ed as a future Delta2 Buick has front quarter windows that look just like the Astra's. Edited July 21, 2009 by ZL-1

[vonVeezelsnider]

No offense but I'll believe this when and only when I see it.

Until GM can prove to me otherwise I'm gonna stick to my prediction that even five years from now this car below will still be better/more like a traditional american luxury car than any big Cadillac GM decides to finally make.

[Camino LS6]

For some unknown reason, I have faith that GM will get the next small cars as right as they got the Malibu, Corvette C6, CTS, Camaro, G8, Solstice, Sky, et al.

With the Ford Focus coming from Europe and Fiat helping Chrysler we may very well ahve some very good small cars in 3 or 4 years.

Chris

Too bad I don't like small cars, if I did I might have something to look forward to.

[A Horse With No Name]

Methinks Dodge builds a car called the Challenger that should suit your needs fine, Camino!

I just want to be behind you at the Dodge dealer getting an Alfa MiTo.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

Methinks Dodge builds a car called the Challenger that should suit your needs fine, Camino!

I just want to be behind you at the Dodge dealer getting an Alfa MiTo.

Chris

If I end up with a Challenger, you'll be way behind.

[A Horse With No Name]

I think I hear an SRT8 calling with your name on it.

Seriously, the Challenger is a great car and it fits you perfectly.

That plus the Holden/Pontiac and a couple of projects and you should be set...

Chris

[hyperv6]

Too bad I don't like small cars, if I did I might have something to look forward to.

The sad fact is there is not going to be any more large traditional American cars due to the goverment rules. If they remain big they will not be V8 powered and will have some sort of electric assist.

Just look at BMW with no plan for a future 7 series if I read correctly the other day and anouncing more 4 cylinders. This is not just a GM issue it will be an issue for all. Hell Benz and Ferrari are both looking at electric sports cars.

The few large cars will be expensive or electric.

I really ponder what the companies will do with trucks. I know Unibody and smaller engines are on tap for the half tons but what about the guys who need them to tow an work with a one ton. Some people really need them to earn a living.

[A Horse With No Name]

Hyper, I think both Electric and Diesel will be around for bigger trucks.

Also, with the foreign debt and our declinging currency, the number of imports will drop and it will be less profitable for Camcords to be built and sold here. Thus I agree on the Fusion and Malibu as the workhorse cars of the future.

Camino better get that Challenger now, as it won't be around in 5 years. I think the Camaro and Mustang will be dead as hipo cars within 5 years.

Chris

[Camino LS6]

Well, if all of that comes to pass I just won't be buying any new cars.

I fully intend to drive what I like, and nothing else.

I'm quite sure that I'll be able to keep something interesting in daily driver condition for the rest of my life.

I don't want to give up on new cars, but I will if forced.

[daves87rs]

Well, if all of that comes to pass I just won't be buying any new cars.

I fully intend to drive what I like, and nothing else.

I'm quite sure that I'll be able to keep something interesting in daily driver condition for the rest of my life.

I don't want to give up on new cars, but I will if forced.

I'm really starting to go that way too....

I find myself looking at Crown Vics more now.....

[black02]

Well, if all of that comes to pass I just won't be buying any new cars.

I fully intend to drive what I like, and nothing else.

I'm quite sure that I'll be able to keep something interesting in daily driver condition for the rest of my life.

I don't want to give up on new cars, but I will if forced.

If gasoline goes up to $20/gallon, what will you do?

[Camino LS6]

If gasoline goes up to $20/gallon, what will you do?

Use a different fuel.

[hyperv6]

Hyper, I think both Electric and Diesel will be around for bigger trucks.

Also, with the foreign debt and our declinging currency, the number of imports will drop and it will be less profitable for Camcords to be built and sold here. Thus I agree on the Fusion and Malibu as the workhorse cars of the future.

Camino better get that Challenger now, as it won't be around in 5 years. I think the Camaro and Mustang will be dead as hipo cars within 5 years.

Chris

I do expect smaller Diesels with twin turbo's since the truck people are more accepting of them As for electric they have more work to do before we will see much in a truck.

The Camaro and Mustang will live on in a smaller package and with a V6 with at least one or two turbos. That is why the Alpha is on hold now. Ford already has stated this is where they are headed but the question is when. The Turbo V6 may be sold side by side in a few years before the V8 is gone.

[Camino LS6]

What a $h!ty time this is!

[hyperv6]

Well, if all of that comes to pass I just won't be buying any new cars.

I fully intend to drive what I like, and nothing else.

I'm quite sure that I'll be able to keep something interesting in daily driver condition for the rest of my life.

I don't want to give up on new cars, but I will if forced.

Just wait the goverment is not done yet. The time is coming where Grand Pa is not well and is costing the goverment health care a lot of money so we will put him to sleep like old shep and while were at it we will ask you to leave your old car at the drop off station to be recyled. In Japan they already tax cars as they age so it is cheaper to buy new. Now you know why the bullet train is full.

I may have made this sound as a joke but the truth is both are options some have already expressed here. Now is the time to fight both as we have not lost these rights yet but soon could. I have already pointed out there was a law that they tried to pass in OR to prevent you from changing tire and wheel size because bigger tires use more gas and create more green house gases. Take the time to read the SEMA web site on pending laws. We have not see the worst yet.

Edited July 22, 2009 by hyperv6

[Oracle of Delphi]

I do expect smaller Diesels with twin turbo's since the truck people are more accepting of them As for electric they have more work to do before we will see much in a truck.

The Camaro and Mustang will live on in a smaller package and with a V6 with at least one or two turbos. That is why the Alpha is on hold now. Ford already has stated this is where they are headed but the question is when. The Turbo V6 may be sold side by side in a few years before the V8 is gone.

What do you mean hyper, I thought you would be riding around in your Caprice, that you said is coming ...

[Blake Noble]

What a $h!ty time this is!

+1

[hyperv6]

What a $h!ty time this is!

I am sorry to say it is only going to get worse for the diehard car enthusiast.

Edited July 22, 2009 by hyperv6

[balthazar]

Agreed, but only if your enthusiasm rests in the 'tommorrow car'.

[A Horse With No Name]

Agreed, but only if your enthusiasm rests in the 'tommorrow car'.

I would agree.

The tomorrow car may well be a dead thing for those of us who love cars.

The US Auto industry in some ways peaked around 1970 and hasn't been the same since.

From a design standpoint, Japan has already peaked.

Chris

[regfootball]

the first half of this decade produced a lot of spectacular vehicles. and now all of that is getting shut down. if the 70's were the glory days of the US auto industry, the early part of this decade was likely such for all the companies here in the US.

[A Horse With No Name]

...getting shut down indeed.

Chris

[Cmicasa the Great]

the first half of this decade produced a lot of spectacular vehicles. and now all of that is getting shut down. if the 70's were the glory days of the US auto industry, the early part of this decade was likely such for all the companies here in the US.

The 70s???? Most would easily say the 60s. Me personally.. I think the auto industry is being renewed in a better way. Why are so many of U so afraid of change. Rebelling against change is human, but sometimes progress has to happen via the worst possible scenarios. My point being is that the Combustible engine will hopefully not be our "Horse and Carriage."

That lasted for 5000 years

[balthazar]

"change" and "progress" are seldom the same thing, and that's where the confusion lies.

[Z-06]

From a design standpoint, Japan has already peaked.

Chris

There was never any design from Japan right since its industry's inception.

[A Horse With No Name]

Most would easily say the 60s. Me personally.. I think the auto industry is being renewed in a better way.

In a way it is.

I like what Chevrolet has done with the Malibu, the CTS, the Camaro, etc.

Just want some of that majic to come down to the smaller cars, as I've said before.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

There was never any design from Japan right since its industry's inception.

Looking at the current Acura lineup, one could say that...

Chris

[Z-06]

Looking at the current Acura lineup, one could say that...

Chris

In general. T-H-N have literally zero design which involves emotion. I love the old TL and TSX, but they are nothing to call spectacular like a 50's or 60's Caddy or Chevy.

Nissan has been designing piles, Toyota just blandness and Honda went from ho hum to extremism lately.

Mazda was generic and in recent past was decent till the new 3 came out !

[Robert Hall]

There was never any design from Japan right since its industry's inception.

The original 240Z was a pretty cool design, IMHO. The Toyota 2000GT was also, but it was somewhat derivative of the Jag XKE.

Rob

[Z-06]

The original 240Z was a pretty cool design, IMHO. The Toyota 2000GT was also, but it was somewhat derivative of the Jag XKE.

Rob

Even in those eras Japanese design was a derivative. It had no styling trademarks like the German and Americans did.

[balthazar]

>>"Even in those eras Japanese design was a derivative. It had no styling trademarks like the German and Americans did. "<<

Agreed. Nothing holds up in general... and the few that are mentionable are derivative yet still lack cohesive-ness.

[A Horse With No Name]

>>"Even in those eras Japanese design was a derivative. It had no styling trademarks like the German and Americans did. "<< Agreed. Nothing holds up in general... and the few that are mentionable are derivative yet still lack cohesive-ness.

There are 3 Japanese cars I am a fanboi of-

The 240Z

The Rx-7, first generation

The Miata, first and second generation.

You can pretty much have everything else.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

In general. T-H-N have literally zero design which involves emotion. I love the old TL and TSX, but they are nothing to call spectacular like a 50's or 60's Caddy or Chevy. Nissan has been designing piles, Toyota just blandness and Honda went from ho hum to extremism lately. Mazda was generic and in recent past was decent till the new 3 came out !

Agree on the new 3.

Seeing cars like that makes me want to move on a bus line.

Ugly.

Chris

[hyperv6]

The problem with design is so few can get it right and many others copy other cars even if it is not right.

Just look at the many who have copied Benz. While Benz is not offending in the past, many of their cars were also not leaders. They had acceptions like the Pagoda coupe or the Supercharged cars of the 30's. Their cars of the 60's-70 gave more image in rep vs style. But everyone as copied parts of these cars for years from Ford to Lexus.

Designers have done cars with too much or cut things till they were too plain. It is almost like there is so little original thought anymore and often they get our of ideas.

The new Camaro is one I think they have gotten 90% right. It has herritege but the folded and creased body sets it apart but does not make it unlivable. I do wish they could have done more the rear lower panel.

The styling on the CTS I love as they have the sheet metal pulled down on the tires and it looks strong and has presents. GM tight now has some of the most original good styling going. The problems comes in that Styling alone does not sell cars and it take the entire package of Rep and quality. Lets face it many people buy cars that are ugly because they are cheap and reliable.

It will be interesting to se what they do with the small two box cars like the Spark, Yaris and Smar in the future. There is only so much sheet metal and the designer is in a box to make it look good keep it user friendly and pass crash standards.

I also like what Alfa Romeo and Maserati has done with styling. I see a lot of them around town and the styling flows well for a sedan. If GM could make an Impala that looked like that at a Chevy price.

Edited July 22, 2009 by hyperv6

[mustang84]

I'm too lazy to scan through all six pages, but this news means that the FWD XTS is dead? If so, thank god.

The Cruze-based Buick would be more tempting if it had it's own entirely unique sheet metal, not just different front and rear clips. Sounds like the old GM mentality is still alive and well. Glad to hear about the Insignia though...that will make a nice Regal.

[vonVeezelsnider]

I'm too lazy to scan through all six pages, but this news means that the FWD XTS is dead? If so, thank god.

The Cruze-based Buick would be more tempting if it had it's own entirely unique sheet metal, not just different front and rear clips. Sounds like the old GM mentality is still alive and well. Glad to hear about the Insignia though...that will make a nice Regal.

As far as I understood XTS ~= Lexus ES and this car, lets be optimistic and call it "Fleetwood" or "Deville" ~= 7-Series

(I heard the DT7 name has been shelved for something better.)

[mustang84]

As far as I understood XTS ~= Lexus ES and this car, lets be optimistic and call it "Fleetwood" or "Deville" ~= 7-Series

(I heard the DT7 name has been shelved for something better.)

I don't mind that then. As long as this larger Sigma is the flagship, and not the XTS.

[balthazar]

66Stang - >>"There are 3 Japanese cars I am a fanboi of-

The 240Z, The Rx-7, first generation, The Miata, first and second generation.

You can pretty much have everything else."<<

I do like the 1st gen rx-7 to a mild degree, I'll give you that... but have never like the 240z, which I find 'clunky'. Miata to me is completely generic & without distinction (sorry!).