RWD Cadillac Flagship Back On Track, Plus Two New Buicks Approved

[A Horse With No Name]

Hey balthazar, we cana gree on 60's Pontiacs!

I know lots of people who are into Miata's and only a few who are into 60's Pontiacs.

As such I enjoy reading what you write.

As I said in another post...diversity makes the (automotive) world go round.

Chris

[The O.C.]

So you deny weight has a big effect on handling? Also, RWD oversteers, FWD understeers, AWD possibly does both.

Don't forget the impact that tire brand and choice has on handling performance. The ZR-1 has been lauded for it's use of, was it, Michelin Pilot Sports, or something? The Z51 and Z06 on Eagle F1s has never seemed to be quite as effective.

From what I hear, as top-high-performance tires go.....the Eagle F1s are not that impressive.

[The O.C.]

+1. Cheers and Gears is a place where we all love GM. We don't love only GM, but we all love GM and wish the best for it.

For GM to prosper, it must have free market competition. We also celebrate what the competition gets right, because we are sane, rational individuals.

We celbrate our diversity of opinion here, and welcome all voices that are rational and thoughtful.

That is the Cheers and Gears I love.

Chris

I agree....I post on here not just because I like only GM......I like cars in GENERAL......and if there happens to be a Toyota or Honda product I like, i'm not embarrased to say so....

[The O.C.]

I completelty disagree about the G8 needing an interior upgrade, as do the auto rags:

"Setting a new Pontiac standard" doesn't really say much......LOL

I have no serious issues with the G8 interior. And I really like the seats. But I do think in many ways it verges on the bland side.

Not crazy about the materials.....the pimple-effect dash and door pads remind me of the often-maligned materials in my '07 CTS....

The new LaCrosse interior seems to far surpass the G8's (at least from pictures.)

[The O.C.]

The original 240Z was a pretty cool design, IMHO. The Toyota 2000GT was also, but it was somewhat derivative of the Jag XKE.

Rob

Speaking of Asian designs......in a weird way.....I'm getting turned on more and more by some of the Korean products I'm seeing.....versus the Japanese products....

I'm not saying I'm in love and ready to go out and by a Kia or Hyundai......but.....

......there is NO question for the same amount of money....I'd take a Genesis 4.6, style-wise, anyday versus the hit-with-an-ugly-stick Acura TL......Genesis sedan may be somewhat derivative, but I find it a tasteful, attractive, and expensive-looking sedan.

......and while I wouldn't take one over a Camaro or Mustang, I really like the aggressive looks of the Genesis Coupe. I would take a 2.0T model over a very-similarly-priced Honda Civic Si Coupe.....

Finally, I'm really liking the new Kia Forte and upcoming Koup. Just a solidly-attractive little sedan and coupe....

[hyperv6]

Don't forget the impact that tire brand and choice has on handling performance. The ZR-1 has been lauded for it's use of, was it, Michelin Pilot Sports, or something? The Z51 and Z06 on Eagle F1s has never seemed to be quite as effective.

From what I hear, as top-high-performance tires go.....the Eagle F1s are not that impressive.

There are a lot of wild reasons some tires are OE. I have friends at all the tire companies and the stories you should hear.

The OE Pilots in this case are better this case than the OE FI's. The key is OE.

Goodyear and Michelin both have better tires that will not meet OE spec at the price GM will wants to pay.

If you notice Goodyear has pulled out of most of the OE market since most MFG want cheap low profit tires. Note the Michelins on my HHR SS are crap but that is not to say all Pilots are crap. The same goes for the Goodyears.

Also note that the Auto MFG have to stick to drive by noise standards that many of the better tires will not meet with the tread designs they have.

The bottom line we used to see cheap Uniroyal on past GM cars and Hankook today is they are cheap or the lowest bidder.

I know in the Goodyear deal they were in a money crunch and did not do all they could to win the deal. Right now they are doing much better and I do not see them moving back to OE unless a MFG is willing to pay the worth of the better tires.

The OE tire market is wicked and there is even a lot more that goes into this. The bottom line is most aftermaket tires are better than what you get OE. Michelin, Goodyear and others seldom sells the best tires in OE they have.

FYI the best FI Goodyears have never been offered OE. They cost too much. Also not all Pilots and FI's are created equal. The name is abused and used on too many tires to condem the name on just one model.

Edited July 23, 2009 by hyperv6

[Croc]

Whoa, OC, you're back!

[The O.C.]

There are a lot of wild reasons some tires are OE. I have friends at all the tire companies and the stories you should hear.

The OE Pilots in this case are better this case than the OE FI's. The key is OE.

Goodyear and Michelin both have better tires that will not meet OE spec at the price GM will wants to pay.

If you notice Goodyear has pulled out of most of the OE market since most MFG want cheap low profit tires. Note the Michelins on my HHR SS are crap but that is not to say all Pilots are crap. The same goes for the Goodyears.

Also note that the Auto MFG have to stick to drive by noise standards that many of the better tires will not meet with the tread designs they have.

The bottom line we used to see cheap Uniroyal on past GM cars and Hankook today is they are cheap or the lowest bidder.

I know in the Goodyear deal they were in a money crunch and did not do all they could to win the deal. Right now they are doing much better and I do not see them moving back to OE unless a MFG is willing to pay the worth of the better tires.

The OE tire market is wicked and there is even a lot more that goes into this. The bottom line is most aftermaket tires are better than what you get OE. Michelin, Goodyear and others seldom sells the best tires in OE they have.

FYI the best FI Goodyears have never been offered OE. They cost too much. Also not all Pilots and FI's are created equal. The name is abused and used on too many tires to condem the name on just one model.

Oh I know there are different versions of the Pilot Sports.....I just forgot which one ZR-1 got. The CTS-V (and FE3 CTS ironically) both come with Pilot Sports too......(again, I forget the version.)

[The O.C.]

Whoa, OC, you're back!

Good to be back! Thanks bud......

I moved back to O.C.....don't remember if I told people......but in the job I have right now, it's really tough to surf C&G during the day.....and I'm usually too exhausted at home to spend much time on here.

But it's been kinda slow today. How have you been?

(Sorry guys not trying to sidetrack thread by saying hello to Mr. Croc)

[hyperv6]

Oh I know there are different versions of the Pilot Sports.....I just forgot which one ZR-1 got. The CTS-V (and FE3 CTS ironically) both come with Pilot Sports too......(again, I forget the version.)

Also could be due to the lowest bidder for the contract.

[The O.C.]

Also could be due to the lowest bidder for the contract.

I just think GM is finally wising up and putting higher-quality rubber on their high-performance machines.

One more area where cost-cutting doesn't serve you well.....and I'm glad to see them stepping up. (Compared to the day when seemingly every "performance" GM car had "Eagle GTs." LOL)

[cletus8269]

Don't forget the impact that tire brand and choice has on handling performance. The ZR-1 has been lauded for it's use of, was it, Michelin Pilot Sports, or something? The Z51 and Z06 on Eagle F1s has never seemed to be quite as effective.

From what I hear, as top-high-performance tires go.....the Eagle F1s are not that impressive.

i remember the OEM tires on my dads 94 z28 were the goodyear eagles. they were toast in about 25K miles waaaaay to soft of a street compound and when we went to replace them with OEM again it was $850 (in 1995) ouch. i think falkens went on it instead, it just got its 3rd set about 2 years ago 64K miles currently on the clock. i believe it is sporting the yokohamas this go round.

Good to be back! Thanks bud......

I moved back to O.C.....don't remember if I told people......but in the job I have right now, it's really tough to surf C&G during the day.....and I'm usually too exhausted at home to spend much time on here.

But it's been kinda slow today. How have you been?

(Sorry guys not trying to sidetrack thread by saying hello to Mr. Croc)

ive always wanted to use that hehe

[Robert Hall]

The OEM Goodyear Eagle GTs on my Mustang lasted about 20k miles. But that was 20+ years ago. Their replacement Eagle GTs lasted maybe 25 miles, and the replacement Firestone Firehawks have less than 20k on them.

Rob

[hyperv6]

I just think GM is finally wising up and putting higher-quality rubber on their high-performance machines.

One more area where cost-cutting doesn't serve you well.....and I'm glad to see them stepping up. (Compared to the day when seemingly every "performance" GM car had "Eagle GTs." LOL)

Yep I think quality from every Hankook tire I see on the new GM cars. It really shows where they are putting the money. The ZR1 and CTS V are the excpetions and you are paying for them.

Just becuse it says Pilot or Eagle does not mean the best tire when it is OE.

While the Pilots on the ZR1 may be better the ones on my SS are crap. As for the Eagles GM never used the best ones available because they would never spend the money and Goodyear would never give them away. I am not sure how may Pilots there are but there are around 35 Eagles and GM never used the best one only the cheap ones even on the Vette.

I also know Goodyear spent a lot of money to put the tires on the Vette and it never made money on those tires. Today after their money crunch they are a little more wiser. Selling cheap tires to OE only tarnishes your image and make you little money.

You are correct the cost cutting here hurts and it often hurts the tire companies in the end.

Goodyear has been working more with the Euro comapnies as they often buy the better tires even on the cheaper cars.

[Robert Hall]

RWD is great, however great handling cars don't have to be RWD. Honda Prelude and Cobalt SS SC or Cobalt SS/TC would come to mind, both of which are great handling FWD cars.

VERY few people will ever race, track day or autocross their cars, and a good FWD package ought to do for 95% of the population.

That being said, my daily driver is RWD.

Chris

True enough. It's not really the all-out handling capability that turns me off of most FWD cars--it's the styling..far too many of them have such short front wheel to front door dimensions and long overhangs, they look wierdly proportioned to my eye... Torque steer seems to be largely a thing of the past in most FWD today.

Speaking of FWD, the nicest handling FWD cars I've driven are a last gen (4th?) Prelude, a Focus SVT, and an '04 VW Golf GTI...really liked the Golf all around..love the interior of that vintage Golf.

Rob

Edited July 24, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[balthazar]

Like ferraris & lambos- weird ungainly proportions. Or audis.

[Robert Hall]

Like ferraris & lambos- weird ungainly proportions. Or audis.

I think those proportions look fine on a mid-engined car, though... But on a FWD car, not so much.

[A Horse With No Name]

I like the SVT Focus and Golf/GTI...

But the only FWD car that "looks right" to me (current production) is the MINI Cooper, and there the wheels are pushedut to he corners so the visual dynamic is different.

Chris

[A Horse With No Name]

Speaking of Asian designs......in a weird way.....I'm getting turned on more and more by some of the Korean products I'm seeing.....versus the Japanese products.... I'm not saying I'm in love and ready to go out and by a Kia or Hyundai......but..... ......there is NO question for the same amount of money....I'd take a Genesis 4.6, style-wise, anyday versus the hit-with-an-ugly-stick Acura TL......Genesis sedan may be somewhat derivative, but I find it a tasteful, attractive, and expensive-looking sedan. ......and while I wouldn't take one over a Camaro or Mustang, I really like the aggressive looks of the Genesis Coupe. I would take a 2.0T model over a very-similarly-priced Honda Civic Si Coupe..... Finally, I'm really liking the new Kia Forte and upcoming Koup. Just a solidly-attractive little sedan and coupe....

+1.

You and I are thinking a lot alike on this!

Chris

[regfootball]

followed a soul today. said to the wife, 'what do you think'?

she didnt care for it.......

forte is ok. cheap interior.

parked next to a fetching new elantra today while filling up. white/tan interior. so it actually looked nice. its passable. still think the sheet metal etc.. is cheap but the elantra has lots of space and value for the dough. much better than a corolla.

rode in a buddy's civic last week. what a barf bag of a car. more space than i imagined or maybe it was just the goofball windshield. the civic dash is stupid and atrocious.

kia and hyundai are taking advantage of honda and toyotas gaffes definitely.

[Bimmer325]

The claim that torque steer is "a thing of the past" is BS. If anything, FWD worked better a decade or two ago when cars were lighter.

Every time I get behind the wheel of a front-driver I'm shocked by how terrible it is dynamically. Torque steer, Novocaine-numb steering, terrible traction/wheelspin, unbalanced handling...it all seems to be the norm for FWD.

[black02]

The claim that torque steer is "a thing of the past" is BS. If anything, FWD worked better a decade or two ago when cars were lighter.

Every time I get behind the wheel of a front-driver I'm shocked by how terrible it is dynamically. Torque steer, Novocaine-numb steering, terrible traction/wheelspin, unbalanced handling...it all seems to be the norm for FWD.

I definitely felt torque steer in the Aura XE (3.5V6 I think) I rented a few weeks ago, and I was just driving it normally (it discourages anything fun).

To make FWD cars fast on a race track, they just set them up to oversteer, and then they control that with the throttle. You'd never want to set up a street car that way.

[hyperv6]

Drive a new Cobalt SS Turbo.

It is one of the few FWD cars that is fun and fast to drive right out of the box. It still has a little Torque Steer but the steering is not numb and it is a blast to drive. THe LSD help and the comp mode make launches very easy if ou do not know how to deal with the torque steer. The Cobalt is as fast as the Camaro SS at the ring snd the video shows it is easy to drive fast. There is little that discourages Fun. In fact check the times of cars running 8:20's at the ring and just see what it is keep up with and what it was faster than.

I will not say it will be a car everyone will want but it will suprise many how well an old platform was tuned by John H and the GMPD team. The magazines did not gush over an old Delta because of their GM bias. I expect GM will only improve on that yet.

Little cars and some mid size cars are going FWD for several reasons. GM needs to and will have to build them. So lets make sure they are the best on the market. They are here and not going away.

[Drew Dowdell]

I've never minded "FWD proportions" on most FWD cars. On some it looks silly like the new Maxima. But on cars like the Lucerne and the LH cars it seems to fit them well. I don't think a Lucerne would look right if the wheels were pushed forward.

Then again, even many of the RWD cars I like have front overhangs like this:

So what do I know?

[Blake Noble]

One of my favorite '80s cars, and a car I'm thinking about buying right now, has a front overhang that bugs the hell out of me.

One day I noticed that my Firebird suffered slightly from the same disease. Study the following photo (it was worse before the MCE as well).*

*This isn't my Firebird, obviously. I never took a direct profile shot of it before it was totaled.

Edited July 24, 2009 by YellowJacket894

[Blake Noble]

I definitely felt torque steer in the Aura XE (3.5V6 I think) I rented a few weeks ago, and I was just driving it normally (it discourages anything fun).

We have an Aura XE with the 3.5L V6 and it does have mild torque steer. And even with traction control, it wants to spin out in wet conditions when you take off from a dead-stop.

Superior traction what?

[Camino LS6]

Overhang never bothered me, as long as the car is proportionate.

Most FWDs fail in that department.

Key exception: Chrysler's LH cars

Worst example: GM's "C" cars (completely disgusting to look at)

[GMTruckGuy74]

Yep I think quality from every Hankook tire I see on the new GM cars. It really shows where they are putting the money.

Here's where I disagree politely with you The 17" Hankook Optimo tires that are on my '07 AURA XE suck plain and simple. After the first 5,000 miles they have never offered any great wet or snow-weather traction since, they are currently at 39,xxx miles and should have been replaced around 33,000 miles, and my overall feeling is that I don't see any greatness in these tires/brand at all. I will make sure whatever new vehicle I purchase from GM does not have this brand of tires on them. The downside is that my wife's G6 has the same exact tires - she's at 16,xxx miles and I've begun to notice the loss of traction in wet weather the few times I've driven it in the rain. If I had the money now, I'd put the G6's Hankook tires on my leased AURA and buy a good set of Goodyear or Michelin tires for the G6. As it is right now, I'm going to have to budget some money before next summer to replace the Hankooks, assuming they wear out like the ones on my AURA (next summer the G6 should have 30,xxx+ miles on the odo).

*And yes, I've routinely had the Hankooks on my AURA rotated at every other oil change - those crappy tires haven't benefitted at all from my money!!

[SAmadei]

One of my favorite '80s cars, and a car I'm thinking about buying right now, has a front overhang that bugs the hell out of me.

I don't mind the overhangs at all. But the '80s G-bodies did have a pretty big one. I felt it was a combination of them being designed to be shorter originally, then lengthened over the years with add-ons. Plus, cars were getting lower... by design, wear and customization... which makes the overhang ever so much more pronounced.

The new nearly-no-overhang look does nothing for me unless the car is _very_ short overall (Mini, 500, Smart).

[Justin Bimmer]

Don't forget the impact that tire brand and choice has on handling performance. The ZR-1 has been lauded for it's use of, was it, Michelin Pilot Sports, or something? The Z51 and Z06 on Eagle F1s has never seemed to be quite as effective.

From what I hear, as top-high-performance tires go.....the Eagle F1s are not that impressive.

Goodyear tires are not that good, period. They have been resting on their "name" for too long.

[Robert Hall]

I don't mind the overhangs at all. But the '80s G-bodies did have a pretty big one. I felt it was a combination of them being designed to be shorter originally, then lengthened over the years with add-ons. Plus, cars were getting lower... by design, wear and customization... which makes the overhang ever so much more pronounced.

The new nearly-no-overhang look does nothing for me unless the car is _very_ short overall (Mini, 500, Smart).

I don't mind overhangs if the shape is balanced overall..it's the short wheel-to-door distance on most FWDs that I don't like. Wheel wells shouldn't intrude on the driver footwell on a front engined car, IMHO.

Rob

[hyperv6]

Here's where I disagree politely with you The 17" Hankook Optimo tires that are on my '07 AURA XE suck plain and simple. After the first 5,000 miles they have never offered any great wet or snow-weather traction since, they are currently at 39,xxx miles and should have been replaced around 33,000 miles, and my overall feeling is that I don't see any greatness in these tires/brand at all. I will make sure whatever new vehicle I purchase from GM does not have this brand of tires on them. The downside is that my wife's G6 has the same exact tires - she's at 16,xxx miles and I've begun to notice the loss of traction in wet weather the few times I've driven it in the rain. If I had the money now, I'd put the G6's Hankook tires on my leased AURA and buy a good set of Goodyear or Michelin tires for the G6. As it is right now, I'm going to have to budget some money before next summer to replace the Hankooks, assuming they wear out like the ones on my AURA (next summer the G6 should have 30,xxx+ miles on the odo).

*And yes, I've routinely had the Hankooks on my AURA rotated at every other oil change - those crappy tires haven't benefitted at all from my money!!

That was a crack at HanKook on my part. Hankook are crap tires.

I used to do work for Hankook and know that they really are. They are cheap and not a high quality tire to this point. They may imporve later but since their arrival cheap price has been their selling point.

[hyperv6]

Goodyear tires are not that good, period. They have been resting on their "name" for too long.

You had better get updated as they have been replacing poor tires like the RSA and others with new updated tires. Most of their new tires like the Assurance line have been award winners and are now a top selling tire.

In the past I would agree with you but today since they got shead of their old CEO Gibara the new CEO Keegan has invested heavy in new improved product.

They are about 2/3 of the way to replacing the old tires with the new and better lines.

Note the new Eagle GT is a very different and good tire for its price range today.

I have worked for all the companies and they all have their good and bad. Even Michelin and BFG.

One underrated tire on the market is the Toyo. It for the money will top most other brands.

[67impss]

Here's where I disagree politely with you The 17" Hankook Optimo tires that are on my '07 AURA XE suck plain and simple. After the first 5,000 miles they have never offered any great wet or snow-weather traction since, they are currently at 39,xxx miles and should have been replaced around 33,000 miles, and my overall feeling is that I don't see any greatness in these tires/brand at all. I will make sure whatever new vehicle I purchase from GM does not have this brand of tires on them. The downside is that my wife's G6 has the same exact tires - she's at 16,xxx miles and I've begun to notice the loss of traction in wet weather the few times I've driven it in the rain. If I had the money now, I'd put the G6's Hankook tires on my leased AURA and buy a good set of Goodyear or Michelin tires for the G6. As it is right now, I'm going to have to budget some money before next summer to replace the Hankooks, assuming they wear out like the ones on my AURA (next summer the G6 should have 30,xxx+ miles on the odo).

*And yes, I've routinely had the Hankooks on my AURA rotated at every other oil change - those crappy tires haven't benefitted at all from my money!!

You could go to a Discount Tire location they can cut new sips in the Hankcook's would help in the wet & cold, helps alot. & don't think its too much. Maybe call first, Good Luck

[67impss]

I don't mind overhangs if the shape is balanced overall..it's the short wheel-to-door distance on most FWDs that I don't like. Wheel wells shouldn't intrude on the driver footwell on a front engined car, IMHO.

Rob

Also the opisit is true on Benz large cars the ammount of car between the wheel well & door you couldmake a Geo Metro out of

[SAmadei]

I don't mind overhangs if the shape is balanced overall..it's the short wheel-to-door distance on most FWDs that I don't like. Wheel wells shouldn't intrude on the driver footwell on a front engined car, IMHO.

Some of my favorite cars have a fairly short space between the front wheel and the door... and are RWD... such as the Monte posted earlier.

Being tall, I agree that I dislike it when the wheel well is intruding into the passenger area... and I fear how things will shrink in a frontal impact. Of course, my '89 GMC 3500 van has a huge intrusion from the wheel well, and I never know what to do with my left foot.

Also the opisit is true on Benz large cars the ammount of car between the wheel well & door you couldmake a Geo Metro out of

See, I love this... (along with trunks that are 7 foot long)... because its decadent. I can stretch out my legs. Or course, even in the longest footwell/door setups, I still hate it when can't easily swivel my legs out of the car. In a FWD car or 4-door car, I usually can't easily get the legs out... it always makes me think that car companies only test their cars with midgets.

[cletus8269]

One of my favorite '80s cars, and a car I'm thinking about buying right now, has a front overhang that bugs the hell out of me.

someone had an aerocoupe version of this on ebay just a few days ago. the owner had put 17" torque thrusts on it, but more important was the Buick GN powertrain he had snuck underneath it. it was sweet.

[67impss]

Some of my favorite cars have a fairly short space between the front wheel and the door... and are RWD... such as the Monte posted earlier.

Being tall, I agree that I dislike it when the wheel well is intruding into the passenger area... and I fear how things will shrink in a frontal impact. Of course, my '89 GMC 3500 van has a huge intrusion from the wheel well, and I never know what to do with my left foot.

See, I love this... (along with trunks that are 7 foot long)... because its decadent. I can stretch out my legs. Or course, even in the longest footwell/door setups, I still hate it when can't easily swivel my legs out of the car. In a FWD car or 4-door car, I usually can't easily get the legs out... it always makes me think that car companies only test their cars with midgets.

Not saying that I don't like large cars(I drive a Roadmaster Estate) Just the proportion of cab to wheelbase looks wrong. My Imp. looks right to my eyes then again its a convertible. I also love the trunk it's great for tent camping or as a kid smuggling 3 more friends into the drive-in :twocents:

[67impss]

Cletus your '69 is such a looker, I'm such a motor head I gotta know whats under that lovely hood ? Looks like fender badge says 350 but that was always a street trick growing up.

P.S. we in the rust belt covet southern cars

Edited July 25, 2009 by 67impss

[Imaj]

You never know it with GM!

Who's gonna bet it'll be off again

[Intrepidation]

One of my favorite '80s cars, and a car I'm thinking about buying right now, has a front overhang that bugs the hell out of me.

One day I noticed that my Firebird suffered slightly from the same disease. Study the following photo (it was worse before the MCE as well).*

*This isn't my Firebird, obviously. I never took a direct profile shot of it before it was totaled.

Yeah, I it's why I never cared for those cars...they have worse proportions than several FWD cars. I for like the 3rd gen Camaro, but just the same, that huge front overhang still bugs me.

[Camino LS6]

Must be an age thing - I think they look fine.

I hate the stubbiness of later cars.

[Intrepidation]

When I think of RWD proportions, I think of this:

Short front overhang and long rear overhang.

[Camino LS6]

Don't have any objection there.

[cletus8269]

Cletus your '69 is such a looker, I'm such a motor head I gotta know whats under that lovely hood ? Looks like fender badge says 350 but that was always a street trick growing up.

P.S. we in the rust belt covet southern cars

why thank you.

has an L48 350/300hp small block... well it did, its a 355 now, 2"airgap 2x4bbl 500cfm edelbrock carbs, dart 180 heads, with a comp 274 xtreme energy cam. its supposed to be scratchin around 400hp +/- 10 with the th350 and auburn 3.73 posi im getting gas footage these days

[mustang84]

I really don't mind overhangs on cars like the Monte. They just worked back then.

[hyperv6]

I really don't mind overhangs on cars like the Monte. They just worked back then.

Many times like the Monte the nose is there for a reason. It was to make a car that was a flying brick a race car which makes it cool in a Superbird kind of way.

Even the over hang on my SS is loaded with an intercooler and pipes to make it faster and more stable at speed vs the standard HHR nose.

The one thing I do hate about long over hangs are curbs and bad driveway approches. They paved my buddys street and the angle made it impossible to get his Viper in his drive unless he put boards down.

[67impss]

Many times like the Monte the nose is there for a reason. It was to make a car that was a flying brick a race car which makes it cool in a Superbird kind of way.

Even the over hang on my SS is loaded with an intercooler and pipes to make it faster and more stable at speed vs the standard HHR nose.

The one thing I do hate about long over hangs are curbs and bad driveway approches. They paved my buddys street and the angle made it impossible to get his Viper in his drive unless he put boards down.

Come on, if he can afford a Viper he could afford to repave his appron . That's the cheapest option out of his whole purchase, small price to pay I'd think.

[Robert Hall]

Also the opisit is true on Benz large cars the ammount of car between the wheel well & door you couldmake a Geo Metro out of

Which is great...the more space between the door and wheel well, the better. One of things I love about the proportions of many BMWs and Mercs--short front overhang, lots of space between the wheel and door, proudly RWD in a world of FWD mediocrity.

Rob

Edited July 26, 2009 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[hyperv6]

Come on, if he can afford a Viper he could afford to repave his appron . That's the cheapest option out of his whole purchase, small price to pay I'd think.

Not when in less than a year you are going to a east coast school to do your grad work. He had to deal with it for only 10 months. It did give me some time to beat on him for his Direct Connection 2X4's.

He now drives much better cars.

Edited July 26, 2009 by hyperv6