New More Powerful Buick Coming?

[hyperv6]

Up front I have nothing solid here and this is only a small hint that something may be happening. This post is more to advise all to keep their eyes open nothing more.

Sorry I do not have the full details. But I have herd from to unrelated people that something may be going on with the Regal or some other Buick beyond the GS.

I could not get either to give of a hint other than that kind of smerk on the face and a quote of "it is going to be very interesting" from one person.

The other is from a person who is a engineer in a GM programs and he claims a twin Turbo V6 Regal or other Buick is being looked at. The claim of 400 HP was made.

Sorry but I do not want to read too much into this yet. I just stated what I was told and heard. There are no real solid details here but I do get the feeling somthing is going on. So at this point we all need to watch and keep our eyes and ears open.

I have had indicators like this before and they have turned into something big. The Camaro and ZR1 engine both came to me in the same form when many here told me neither would happen.

I will keep poking around with the people I know and see if anyone will give any real clues to what is up.

I wonder too if a 400 Twin Turbo could be an Alpha based Buick? Could this be a GN some have wished for? The one person is connected indirectly to the Alpha and it's future.

Right now but please keep an eye open for clues. I figure with the people we have here we may be able to piece this together with a few more clues?

[smk4565]

Perhaps Buick plans a return of the Park Avenue Ultra with a new 3800 Series IV Supercharged making 250 hp, instead of 240. That will put the 182 hp Regal in its place.

I thought Buick was supposed to be luxury, and Chevy Camaro/Corvette/SS models and Cadillac were supposed to bring the performance. GM's brands are all mismashed even with only 4 to worry about. Even if Buick does make a twin turbo V6, they'll probably put it in a car with wrong wheel drive anyway.

[balthazar]

>>"I thought Buick was supposed to be luxury, and Chevy Camaro/Corvette/SS models and Cadillac were supposed to bring the performance. "<<

You, along with a quantity of other like-minded confused people, get entirely too wrapped up in the GM hierarchy and the marque's individual "definition" to see things clearly.

If this were 1965, you'd be saying "I thought Pontiac & Chevy SSs were performance, and Buick was entry-level luxury, and I don't know what Olds is, but how can we be getting a GTO, a GS, an SS AND a 442 ??? GM is all mismashed, even with only 5 to worry about."

[smk4565]

>>"I thought Buick was supposed to be luxury, and Chevy Camaro/Corvette/SS models and Cadillac were supposed to bring the performance. "<<

You, along with a quantity of other like-minded confused people, get entirely too wrapped up in the GM hierarchy and the marque's individual "definition" to see things clearly.

If this were 1965, you'd be saying "I thought Pontiac & Chevy SSs were performance, and Buick was entry-level luxury, and I don't know what Olds is, but how can we be getting a GTO, a GS, an SS AND a 442 ??? GM is all mismashed, even with only 5 to worry about."

It isn't 1965, it is 2010, and building similar cars that compete against each other is a recipe for disaster, that is why GM and Chrysler went bankrupt, and Ford nearly did and decided to kill Mercury. If GM's brands aren't unique to each other and with a focus, they'll compete with each other and eventually another brand or 2 will get contracted in order to avoid another bankruptcy.

[Croc]

It isn't 1965, it is 2010, and building similar cars that compete against each other is a recipe for disaster, that is why GM and Chrysler went bankrupt, and Ford nearly did and decided to kill Mercury. If GM's brands aren't unique to each other and with a focus, they'll compete with each other and eventually another brand or 2 will get contracted in order to avoid another bankruptcy.

Gotta agree with you here. Now, I'm not against Buick having a performance package here and there, but Cadillac has to be firmly positioned against BMW. IMO, the key to keeping Buick and Cadillac distinct will have everything to do with drivetrain configuration--Buick should be FWD, premium mainstream (think Acura, Lexus, VW, Volvo) and Cadillac will be RWD, luxury performance (BMW, MB and to a lesser degree Infiniti).

So far, GM seems to be going in the direction I would prefer here, but hopefully they won't be too married to the idea that the DTS buyers need to stay within Cadillac, versus just staying within GM.

[balthazar]

So increase the distinction between marques ... but that doesn't mean Buick cannot build a performance-oriented car in the least, hence my '65 example. It's not like they have no track record of success here.

What if a 'GS Super' Regal with 400 HP shows up- what are you afraid it'll do- step on the Camaro's toes merely because both are circa 400-HP but MOSTLY because they come from the same parent corporation ??

Chevy buyers will be confused about 'Buick's message' because they do not want to see performance cars anywhere else at another GM-corporate dealer ?? Wait- Buick & Chevy buyers cross-shop 98% of the time ??

In slower typing; what Chevy or other GM car is "too similar" to the Regal in the U.S. ?

Cripes, in one post you whine about the Regals' power numbers (too low), and in this one you whine it'll be a real performance car (too high).

The whining gets real F'ing boring after a short while, in case you didn't realize it...

Edited September 6, 2010 by balthazar

[regfootball]

GNX?

GS Regal should have over 300hp before they sell it and it gets a rep as underpowered.

[Croc]

So increase the distinction between marques ... but that doesn't mean Buick cannot build a performance-oriented car in the least, hence my '65 example. It's not like they have no track record of success here.

What if a 'GS Super' Regal with 400 HP shows up- what are you afraid it'll do- step on the Camaro's toes merely because both are circa 400-HP but MOSTLY because they come from the same parent corporation ??

Chevy buyers will be confused about 'Buick's message' because they do not want to see performance cars anywhere else at another GM-corporate dealer ?? Wait- Buick & Chevy buyers cross-shop 98% of the time ??

In slower typing; what Chevy or other GM car is "too similar" to the Regal in the U.S. ?

Cripes, in one post you whine about the Regals' power numbers (too low), and in this one you whine it'll be a real performance car (too high).

The whining gets real F'ing boring after a short while, in case you didn't realize it...

I agree. That said, I don't see why the next Malibu shouldn't be offered with an SS package. IMO GM would be stupid not to--the Malibu is already an extremely competent sedan, and an SS version (with or without a coupe variant) would be a glaring omission.

Now, in that scenario, what would distinguish a Malibu SS from a Regal GN or GNX? Well, I think they could theoretically coexist without competing against each other, but smk has a valid point here in that GM has a long history now of failing to be able to make such a market positioning distinction. I think a Regal GNX and a next-gen Malibu SS could complement each other--the Malibu SS would increase the appeal of the Malibu to a wider variety of buyers, but the Regal would need to offer premium amenities and features not available on the Malibu. The ride and handling would need to be a little tighter, more tech features would need to be standard, and other considerations with regards to interior DESIGN and materials would need to be made. Basically, GM would need to do its equivalent of Honda Accord vs. Acura TL.

[smk4565]

To go to 400 hp, you pretty much need rear drive, that means Alpha, Zeta, or Sigma, and making a 400 hp rear drive Buick would overlap Chevy or Cadillac. 400 hp in an Epsilon sedan is pointless, even with AWD, I can't imagine the handling would be good or that the power would be usable. Plus, Buick was meant to be smooth ride, quiet, soft, luxury, now they want a high horsepower, firm suspension sedan? And Cadillac that is supposed to go against the Germans has a big floaty XTS that belongs at Buick.

[hyperv6]

To go to 400 hp, you pretty much need rear drive, that means Alpha, Zeta, or Sigma, and making a 400 hp rear drive Buick would overlap Chevy or Cadillac. 400 hp in an Epsilon sedan is pointless, even with AWD, I can't imagine the handling would be good or that the power would be usable. Plus, Buick was meant to be smooth ride, quiet, soft, luxury, now they want a high horsepower, firm suspension sedan? And Cadillac that is supposed to go against the Germans has a big floaty XTS that belongs at Buick.

AWD would solve the whole issue and RWD would not have to be part of the package.

I just wonder how much hood space there is with the Regal to have a 3.6 TT Tubo? Is the OPC Opel I thik is only a single turbo. Do they have enough room for a second?

In the hands of the GMPD they would make this a real Euro killer. Imagine what they would do with a better chassis vs what they did with the Delta 1. We also need to understand GMPD tuning is not like the GM tuning of old where they slap on stiff springs, big tires and then send the car out. They use the Euro approach where they leave a litte max limit on the table to make the handle in the real world. The make it so you don't have to be on a smooth race track to get the car to perform well.

All the other GMPD cars will burn up the back roads of America since they were designed for real roads. The testing at the Greeen Hell has sone a lot of good I think in how they send out the finished product. It is not what the car does on paper but what it does with the wheel in you hands on the back country road.

This could really be the poor mans Audi.

I am sure if it is Regal based we will see it in a Opel or if it is Zeta based we sill see in down under. We need to watch all division world wide for clues.

Edited September 6, 2010 by hyperv6

[cire]

Perhaps Buick plans a return of the Park Avenue Ultra with a new 3800 Series IV Supercharged making 250 hp, instead of 240. That will put the 182 hp Regal in its place.

I thought Buick was supposed to be luxury, and Chevy Camaro/Corvette/SS models and Cadillac were supposed to bring the performance. GM's brands are all mismashed even with only 4 to worry about. Even if Buick does make a twin turbo V6, they'll probably put it in a car with wrong wheel drive anyway.

I sort of look at it as GM's attempt to sort of make up for closing Pontiac. Basically, GM is giving Buick a split personality to sort of cover the loss. The Regal is part of that strategy.

Can Buick's sportier side cover everything that Pontiac did in the past? No. I don't see a pony car (Firebird) in the brand's future, no matter how much GM tries to stretch Buick. I do think Buick can be stretched to offer vehicles that focus on sportiness and style as well as vehicles that reinforce the brand's traditional attributes of comfort and elegance.

[smk4565]

AWD would solve the whole issue and RWD would not have to be part of the package.

In the hands of the GMPD they would make this a real Euro killer.

Acura already tried that with the RL and TL, loads of power in a fwd car and add on awd to compensate, and no euros were killed, in fact, BMW and Mercedes are even stronger now than 5 years ago when Acura went after them. Taurus SHO and Lincoln MKS tried the same, Lincoln sales down, Germans are up. Buick should have its sights set on disenfranchised Saturn and Mercury drivers, Chrysler owners, or people considering a Toyota Avalon or Lexus ES, or Lincoln.

[Drew Dowdell]

Acura already tried that with the RL and TL, loads of power in a fwd car and add on awd to compensate, and no euros were killed, in fact, BMW and Mercedes are even stronger now than 5 years ago when Acura went after them. Taurus SHO and Lincoln MKS tried the same, Lincoln sales down, Germans are up. Buick should have its sights set on disenfranchised Saturn and Mercury drivers, Chrysler owners, or people considering a Toyota Avalon or Lexus ES, or Lincoln.

Come on SMK, don't return to your disingenuous ways. The RL flopped because it looked like an Accord RL De Lux Brougham.... It had little to do with powertrain.

[cavalier36]

what about making a Buick version of the Camaro but with a diffrent body? then we can talk about a new Grand National.

[ocnblu]

Well, GM has stated Buick is going up against Toyopet's "Lexus" division, and they have the IS sedan and hardtop convertible... why can't Buick have a RWD/AWD Alpha sedan and hardtop convertible of their own with that 400hp six?

[Robert Hall]

Well, GM has stated Buick is going up against Toyopet's "Lexus" division, and they have the IS sedan and hardtop convertible... why can't Buick have a RWD/AWD Alpha sedan and hardtop convertible of their own with that 400hp six?

Wouldn't that intrude on Cadillac's ATS plans?

[Lamar]

LaCrosse Super with the twin-turbo V6!

Hey, I'd give it a look...

[hyperv6]

Well, GM has stated Buick is going up against Toyopet's "Lexus" division, and they have the IS sedan and hardtop convertible... why can't Buick have a RWD/AWD Alpha sedan and hardtop convertible of their own with that 400hp six?

I was thinking at least a Alpha Coupe with AWD and make it a TT V6.

I know Alpha and V8 have not been used together but a V series ATS with power in the middle of a CTSV and the Buick would work.

As for Acura that is a joke. Acura has never really been more than a fancy Honda. Kind of like the last Pontiac's were to Chevy. Excluding the NSX, Solstice and G8.

[cire]

Well, GM has stated Buick is going up against Toyopet's "Lexus" division, and they have the IS sedan and hardtop convertible... why can't Buick have a RWD/AWD Alpha sedan and hardtop convertible of their own with that 400hp six?

I think Alpha will probably mainly stay within Cadillac with a couple of exceptions:

* I expect the next gen Camaro to move to the SWB Alpha platform.

* I would like to see a new Riviera built on the LWB Alpha platform. This new Riviera would be available in coupe and retractable hardtop convertible versions.

I don't think Buick will match Lexus model for model. I think GM is targeting the attributes and image of the Lexus brand more so than trying to match the brand model for model.

If Buick is keeping the Enclave on Lambda (and there is no reason why it shouldn't), then I would love to see GMC use the LWB Alpha platform to morph the next gen Acadia into a Jeep Grand Cherokee competitor. GMC would still have a 3-row utility vehicle in the next gen Yukon, so the Acadia would be free to become a luxurious midsize competitor to the Grand Cherokee.

[smk4565]

Come on SMK, don't return to your disingenuous ways. The RL flopped because it looked like an Accord RL De Lux Brougham.... It had little to do with powertrain.

True, it was an Accord De Lux, just as the TL is, but the RL even 5 years ago was in the $45-50k range, that was into rear drive German car territory, so I think powertrain (especially at that price point) played a part.

And isn't the Regal a Malibu De Lux, the XTS just a LaCrosse Deluxe Brougham? GM is just as guilty as anyone else when it comes to dressing up a main line product and passing it off as luxury. I think Buick and GMC can get away with taking a Chevy, changing the sheet metal and adding some leather and trim, but Cadillac can not.

[smk4565]

A Buick on Alpha makes as much sense as a Cadillac on Epsilon, oh wait.... too late.

I think the solution is more models. Cadillac obviously needs a Lambda SUV to compete with the Acadia and Enclave, and Cadillac needs a Delta II sedan to compete in the hotly contested $25,000 sedan market. Then Buick can get a 2-seat, plastic bodied, sports car with a 400 hp V8 priced at $50,000 since Corvette sales are down, they need another car in that segment to make up for it. And then GMC can get their version of the Aveo sedan to help with CAFE, and besides some Aveo/Fit/Versa drivers want "professional grade" and Scion doesn't offer that. Then, Chevy can get an epsilon sedan sized, priced and equipped exactly like the Lacrosse and a 400 hp twin turbo AWD Malibu SS.

[balthazar]

Buick was meant to be smooth ride, quiet, soft, luxury, now they want a high horsepower, firm suspension sedan?

mercedes was meant to be a sporty sedan and now they want a multitude of small mushy FWD econoboxes??

Get the one trick pony definition of the divisions out of your mind, you are unable to objectively judge anything hampered by them.

[smk4565]

mercedes was meant to be a sporty sedan and now they want a multitude of small mushy FWD econoboxes??

Get the one trick pony definition of the divisions out of your mind, you are unable to objectively judge anything hampered by them.

Mercedes is not now, and was never about building a sports sedan. Since 1886 it has been about engineering and innovation, and to a degree, safety. And they have one FWD platform that 2 cars share, plus the Smart platform, compared to how many rear drive platforms. BMW/Mini is probably the only car maker with less FWD than Mercedes.

I am not interested in one trick pony divisions, but Chevrolet should be middle of the road, low to medium priced vehicles, Buick/GMC should be more luxurious versions of Chevy with more dramatic styling, then Cadillac should be rear drive performance luxury. If Buick is making sports cars, Chevy is making luxury cars, and Cadillac is making pastel, slush-mobiles that float down I95 in Florida, GM has a problem. GM needs to focus and spend its money wisely on the right products.

[CanadianBacon94]

I am not interested in one trick pony divisions, but Chevrolet should be middle of the road, low to medium priced vehicles, Buick/GMC should be more luxurious versions of Chevy with more dramatic styling, then Cadillac should be rear drive performance luxury. If Buick is making sports cars, Chevy is making luxury cars, and Cadillac is making pastel, slush-mobiles that float down I95 in Florida, GM has a problem. GM needs to focus and spend its money wisely on the right products.

manes sense, but where are you finding chevrolet luxury cars, and buick sports cars?

[hyperv6]

Mercedes is not now, and was never about building a sports sedan. Since 1886 it has been about engineering and innovation, and to a degree, safety. And they have one FWD platform that 2 cars share, plus the Smart platform, compared to how many rear drive platforms. BMW/Mini is probably the only car maker with less FWD than Mercedes.

I am not interested in one trick pony divisions, but Chevrolet should be middle of the road, low to medium priced vehicles, Buick/GMC should be more luxurious versions of Chevy with more dramatic styling, then Cadillac should be rear drive performance luxury. If Buick is making sports cars, Chevy is making luxury cars, and Cadillac is making pastel, slush-mobiles that float down I95 in Florida, GM has a problem. GM needs to focus and spend its money wisely on the right products.

More Luxurious versions of Chevy?

Is this not what killed Pontiac. It was nothing more than a fancy Chevy?

Buick needs to be based on models not sold at Chevy or Cadillac. One of the main issues was you had 5-6 division trying to hide the same car under different trim.

Now with the global deal we have a better chance to hide these cars with not only different skin but different levels of appointments and different performance packages.

With three main car divison ther is no excuse for overlap anymore. With using cars from Opel and Holden we can retain a fresh look for all three divisions with no burden to have to sell a zillion to make the car profitable in just one market.

GM needs to cover the compition on their level and not try to match each make model to model. There will be some overlap with other makes but as long as GM does not over lap itself that is all that matters. In the past GM competed with itself more than the other brands and often hurt itself more than Honda, Toyota or any other make.

Buick is not going to take over the maket in a year or just with the Regal. It will retake the market it is targed at with each and every new model. It is not going to just be aimed just at Audi or just VW or even Acura. It will be aimed a little at all of them in the middle priced market.

If you want a Cheap car go to Chevy if you want a higher class lower volume world class car go to Cadillac.

Buick will win over people but it will just take some time. So far they are doing what is needed. THey just like Chevy need to get butts into the seats and see this is not your grandfathers Buick anymore.