Random Thoughts Thread

[surreal1272]

While I am not sold on the Grand Wagoneer's exterior, the interior is sharp as hell but what really catches my eyes, are the stereo and the maker. Salivating here, is not an option for me. That is my dream build home stereo system maker. Ironically, the system I want from them (The Reference Music System below) probably costs more than a loaded GW. A man can dream though. A man can dream.

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by surreal1272

[David]

26 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

While I am not sold on the Grand Wagoneer's exterior, the interior is sharp as hell but what really catches my eyes, are the stereo and the maker. Salivating here, is not an option for me. That is my dream build home stereo system maker. Ironically, the system I want from them (The Reference Music System below) probably costs more than a loaded GW. A man can dream though. A man can dream.

 

I totally agree with you that I have always dreamed of a McIntosh home theater system. Having it in a Grand Wagoneer does take it to the Luxury Level that even Mercedes has not met yet.

That is ONE SHARP Interior and STEREO System that Rocks!

I love all the images and info McIntosh covers on their stereo system on their site.

McIntosh Automotive: The Vehicles (mcintoshlabs.com)

Having a McIntosh Electrostatic with traditional speaker system in the auto is just plain COOL!

Seems all trim levels of the Grand Wagoneer to Grand Cherokee can have a McIntosh system and speakers.

[David]

Very cool review, young people are noticing Cadillac.

Cadillac 668HP CT5-V Blackwing Review: America Did It Better

 

[ccap41]

22 minutes ago, David said:

I totally agree with you that I have always dreamed of a McIntosh home theater system. Having it in a Grand Wagoneer does take it to the Luxury Level that even Mercedes has not met yet.

And we wonder why Mercedes is always brought up here... I think you're just playing ignorant if you don't think what the S Class offers is top notch for an OEM. From what I've read, Mercedes' Burmester 4D system will blow away what'd offered in the GC L. 

 

https://www.burmester.de/en/Automotive/S-Class/

"The Burmester High-End 4D Surround Sound System for the Mercedes-Benz S-Class is another jointly achieved milestone on this journey. Functionally, the High-End 4D Surround Sound System enhances the previous system by incorporating structure-borne sound transducers, so-called exciters, into the seat. This specially developed solution makes it possible to perceive the rhythms of the music not only through the ears, but through the entire body, which represents a completely new sound experience in the automobile.

The music experience, which is now also transmitted to the body in a tangible way, is additionally enhanced by the personalization function. Freely adjustable parameters can be used to create a sound profile adapted to the user's own preferences. Subsequently, 31 high-performance loudspeakers and eight exciters with 1,750 watts of sine wave power provide the all-encompassing sound experience.

Surround speakers integrated into the front seats optimize the surround sound for the driver and front passenger. Clear voice reproduction during phone calls also benefits from these speakers positioned closer to the ear. Visually, emphasis has been placed on creating a fully integrated experience, where the design of the system blends seamlessly with the vehicle's interior and its UX."

[David]

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

And we wonder why Mercedes is always brought up here... I think you're just playing ignorant if you don't think what the S Class offers is top notch for an OEM. From what I've read, Mercedes' Burmester 4D system will blow away what'd offered in the GC L. 

 

https://www.burmester.de/en/Automotive/S-Class/

"The Burmester High-End 4D Surround Sound System for the Mercedes-Benz S-Class is another jointly achieved milestone on this journey. Functionally, the High-End 4D Surround Sound System enhances the previous system by incorporating structure-borne sound transducers, so-called exciters, into the seat. This specially developed solution makes it possible to perceive the rhythms of the music not only through the ears, but through the entire body, which represents a completely new sound experience in the automobile.

The music experience, which is now also transmitted to the body in a tangible way, is additionally enhanced by the personalization function. Freely adjustable parameters can be used to create a sound profile adapted to the user's own preferences. Subsequently, 31 high-performance loudspeakers and eight exciters with 1,750 watts of sine wave power provide the all-encompassing sound experience.

Surround speakers integrated into the front seats optimize the surround sound for the driver and front passenger. Clear voice reproduction during phone calls also benefits from these speakers positioned closer to the ear. Visually, emphasis has been placed on creating a fully integrated experience, where the design of the system blends seamlessly with the vehicle's interior and its UX."

Never Ignorant, just informed.

McIntosh was founded in NY USA in 1949 and is a global recognized symbol of global Audio products.

McIntosh Heritage (mcintoshlabs.com)

Compared to Burmester that was founded in 1978 and only recently in 7 very high end audio stores has entered the US market. I take nothing away from the push by this company to improve audio, but they in comparison to various intellectual rights are behind McIntosh who continues to lead the Luxury world in audio components.

Dieter Burmester

Germans tend to stick to Germans so it is not a surprise that MB would say such things about Burmester or Burmester would state what they believe about their audio system in a S-Class.

It will always boil down to personal choice and I have spent many a day in the high end audio stores here listening to McIntosh and their lovely speakers and how it moves the air and electrifies what one hears in sending goose bumps, another electrical impulse throughout the body.

I admit, I have not heard a complete Burmester system to see if it does that too me. The Amplifiers which Burmester is built on sound amazing. Yet as I said, I have not heard their home audio equipment to say it is better than McIntosh. 

I have heard plenty of S-class audio systems and they do not impress me. 

Who knows, McIntosh in the Jeep might also disappoint, but right now just like Bose, I expect McIntosh to deliver on their high expectations to compliment their home audio systems. 

[ccap41]

You do realize they're not putting a single component from their home theater setups in a Jeep, right? 

13 minutes ago, David said:

I have heard plenty of S-class audio systems and they do not impress me. 

Unless you've sat in a 2020+ S-Class with the specific system optioned, you haven't heard the system I linked above. 

Bose has always had very, VERY below average car audio. Nobody I've talked to in peson or online has thought they were anything worthwhile in automobiles. They were better than the none-Bose systems but that's about it. 

[surreal1272]

6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

You do realize they're not putting a single component from their home theater setups in a Jeep, right? 

From what I can tell, neither does Burmester. Both make sweet systems but I’d still take a top notch McIntosh over an equal Burmester, and I have heard both (home systems) but my sound budget does not line up with my real budget lol. Again, dreaming. 
 

Agreed on Bose though. Middle of the road stereos and speakers at best. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

1 minute ago, surreal1272 said:

From what I can tell, neither does Burmester. Both make sweet systems but I’d still take a top notch McIntosh over an equal Burmester, and I have heard both (home systems) but my sound budget does not line up with my real budget lol. Again, dreaming. 

The thing is, neither is *actually* comparable to what both make for home theaters and they're GREATLY restricted to what the auto manufacturer will allow. 

My point was just the statement, "Having it in a Grand Wagoneer does take it to the Luxury Level that even Mercedes has not met yet." Is complete BS. 

[surreal1272]

Just now, ccap41 said:

The thing is, neither is *actually* comparable to what both make for home theaters and they're GREATLY restricted to what the auto manufacturer will allow. 

My point was just the statement, "Having it in a Grand Wagoneer does take it to the Luxury Level that even Mercedes has not met yet." Is complete BS. 

The last part was a bit “trollish” lol. 

[ccap41]

6 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

The last part was a bit “trollish” lol. 

[balthazar]

Time sucks.
 

[A Horse With No Name]

20 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

While I am not sold on the Grand Wagoneer's exterior, the interior is sharp as hell but what really catches my eyes, are the stereo and the maker. Salivating here, is not an option for me. That is my dream build home stereo system maker. Ironically, the system I want from them (The Reference Music System below) probably costs more than a loaded GW. A man can dream though. A man can dream.

 

I love McIntosh stuff....but it is pricy...

19 hours ago, David said:

Very cool review, young people are noticing Cadillac.

Cadillac 668HP CT5-V Blackwing Review: America Did It Better

 

I would take this over anything built in Asia or Europe. 

15 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

The last part was a bit “trollish” lol. 

But funny...

 

16 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

From what I can tell, neither does Burmester. Both make sweet systems but I’d still take a top notch McIntosh over an equal Burmester, and I have heard both (home systems) but my sound budget does not line up with my real budget lol. Again, dreaming. 
 

Agreed on Bose though. Middle of the road stereos and speakers at best. 

Yeah...not a Bose fan myself. 

16 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

From what I can tell, neither does Burmester. Both make sweet systems but I’d still take a top notch McIntosh over an equal Burmester, and I have heard both (home systems) but my sound budget does not line up with my real budget lol. Again, dreaming. 
 

Agreed on Bose though. Middle of the road stereos and speakers at best. 

That's the nice thing about home audio, 90 or 95 % of a really good system is available fairly readily. Very happy with how my home system sounds. 

[oldshurst442]

Burmester and McIntosh got nothing on what these guys are using

(just mind your volume because  the video uploader has boosted up the bass to enhance the video...really annoying but the video content is funny)

 

[surreal1272]

45 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I love McIntosh stuff....but it is pricy...

Beyond pricey but damn! I'd still have it if the money was there.

Just now, oldshurst442 said:

Burmester and McIntosh got nothing on what these guys are using

(just mind your volume because  the video uploader has boosted up the bass to enhance the video...really annoying but the video content is funny)

 

Another $10K system in a $1k car lol.

[daves87rs]

24 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Burmester and McIntosh got nothing on what these guys are using

(just mind your volume because  the video uploader has boosted up the bass to enhance the video...really annoying but the video content is funny)

 

Like my music loud…..not that loud! 

[riviera74]

18 hours ago, ccap41 said:

You do realize they're not putting a single component from their home theater setups in a Jeep, right? 

Unless you've sat in a 2020+ S-Class with the specific system optioned, you haven't heard the system I linked above. 

Bose has always had very, VERY below average car audio. Nobody I've talked to in peson or online has thought they were anything worthwhile in automobiles. They were better than the none-Bose systems but that's about it. 

And yet Bose has been in Cadillac cars since 1980.  At least they could be upgraded to better car speakers fairly easily.   These days, it seems almost impossible to upgrade today's infotainment systems if they are weak compared to aftermarket stuff that is easily obtained.  If you lease, that is irrelevant.

[David]

@ccap41 @surreal1272 @oldshurst442 @A Horse With No Name

Yes Bose is not all that and a bag a chips especially when you hear their home theater systems which are a disappointment to me. Yet as stated the Bose system is better than general GM stereos and with GM speakers since you are upgrading the speakers to Bose but the head units are still the same.

McIntosh according to their website developed the head units and speakers using their technology from their Luxury Home Systems. As such, I am making an ASSumption, yup if could come back to bite me in the ass that this should be a much better system than most and especially on systems that have just speaker upgrades only like GM did in the past with Bose.

Even today, my beef with Cadillac is that at $121, 490 for the Cadillac Escalade ESV Sport Platinum you still are only getting the AKG 3D Stereo Speaker upgrade with a traditional GM head unit built into the 38" OLED screen on the dash.

Upon thinking on this, I went back to re-read the link @ccap41 posted above and realized that unlike McIntosh, Burmester has done the same thing Cadillac has done. Using a Mercedes Head unit with a Burmester speaker system.

S-Class (burmester.de)

This system while offering in seat vibrator's to make sure you can feel the music and works with a 3D mapping software but is just a speaker upgrade system. 

I am expecting McIntosh to have done a much better job since their head unit with their speaker design should allow a superior Luxury level of audio enjoyment.

9 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

And yet Bose has been in Cadillac cars since 1980.  At least they could be upgraded to better car speakers fairly easily.   These days, it seems almost impossible to upgrade today's infotainment systems if they are weak compared to aftermarket stuff that is easily obtained.  If you lease, that is irrelevant.

Point I was just pointing out is that the Mercedes S-Class with the Burmester system is also just a speaker upgrade option as it uses Mercedes head unit with software to allow mapping of sound.

Jeep at least had McIntosh develop the head unit to work with the vast speaker system and so I do have high expectations as even Cadillac while having the optional AKG 3D sound speaker system is also just a speaker system upgrade and no real head unit.

[daves87rs]

Though I do have to say that Bose headphones are pretty good….

[David]

2 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

Though I do have to say that Bose headphones are pretty good….

Yes Noise Canceling have saved me on more than a few long flights when I used to travel for work. Now they just sit on the shelve in my office since I work from home for ever now as long as I have my current job.

[A Horse With No Name]

24 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

Though I do have to say that Bose headphones are pretty good….

I buy Grado headphones. They are made in the USA by a company that has been owned by the same family since 1953.

https://gradolabs.com/headphones

 

23 minutes ago, David said:

Yes Noise Canceling have saved me on more than a few long flights when I used to travel for work. Now they just sit on the shelve in my office since I work from home for ever now as long as I have my current job.

I find I really enjoy listening to headphone music at times. Just me and music, nothing else. 

[ccap41]

34 minutes ago, David said:

As such, I am making an ASSumption, yup if could come back to bite me in the ass that this should be a much better system than most and especially on systems that have just speaker upgrades only like GM did in the past with Bose.

I 100% agree with this and it is probably a superb system. 

My only issue was stating Mercedes doesn't have an extremely high end system in their autos, especially the new 4D system. 

Just because they're using an OEM head unit, that does not mean they aren't adding a processor into the system. Hell, even my MKC, Focus, and Escape had separate processors. The head unit is simply just the user interface. 

"The McIntosh in-vehicle app complements the Uconnect system. When you play audio through the McIntosh app you’ll be not only enveloped in an immersive and sensational acoustic experience with flawless sound, but you will also experience the look of the iconic Blue Meters with their charming dancing needles. Our team worked intensively to deliver an innovative digital simulations that perfectly emulate the analog version of the meters which are symbol of the globally renown McIntosh electronics. You can control most audio playback through the app. The McIntosh app allows you to get the most out of the McIntosh luxury audio system for a sensational acoustic experience that delivers music with zero coloration – just as the artist intended."

From what I can see, they have the same setup as the others in which they just have their own app within the head unit to dive deep into the details to customize everything. Where are you reading they had control to design the whole head unit? 

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

And yet Bose has been in Cadillac cars since 1980.  At least they could be upgraded to better car speakers fairly easily.   These days, it seems almost impossible to upgrade today's infotainment systems if they are weak compared to aftermarket stuff that is easily obtained.  If you lease, that is irrelevant.

With all of the ambient noise, good enough is good enough for an automotive audio system for me. 

For years I drove vintage muscle cars, service vans for work, and played with sports cars on the weekends. Fairly high ambient noise. 

The stock system in my Ranger does OKay with stringed instruments, I mostly listen to classical music when I drive. 

If I ever got a car like a Cadillac I would want a really premium audio system. 

However, I really want to buy a Wrangler or Bronco for my next car. Lots of places I want to explore with 4WD. Ambient noise level off the chart again, especially with all terrain or mud tires. 

YMMV.

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

I 100% agree with this and it is probably a superb system. 

My only issue was stating Mercedes doesn't have an extremely high end system in their autos, especially the new 4D system. 

Just because they're using an OEM head unit, that does not mean they aren't adding a processor into the system. Hell, even my MKC, Focus, and Escape had separate processors. The head unit is simply just the user interface. 

"The McIntosh in-vehicle app complements the Uconnect system. When you play audio through the McIntosh app you’ll be not only enveloped in an immersive and sensational acoustic experience with flawless sound, but you will also experience the look of the iconic Blue Meters with their charming dancing needles. Our team worked intensively to deliver an innovative digital simulations that perfectly emulate the analog version of the meters which are symbol of the globally renown McIntosh electronics. You can control most audio playback through the app. The McIntosh app allows you to get the most out of the McIntosh luxury audio system for a sensational acoustic experience that delivers music with zero coloration – just as the artist intended."

From what I can see, they have the same setup as the others in which they just have their own app within the head unit to dive deep into the details to customize everything. Where are you reading they had control to design the whole head unit? 

A  little bit of bias, yes. I have no issue with Benz cars, they build some awesome stuff. I have issues with people being Benz fanboi's just for the sake of being a benz Fanboi. But I ahve the same issue with vintage Mopar guys, Jeep guys, diesel truck owners, Miata nerds, etc. 

Love what you want to love, but don't shove it down my throat. Same concept works really well for the three "toxic" subjects of sex, politics, and religion. 

[A Horse With No Name]

Truth....

[A Horse With No Name]

[A Horse With No Name]

[ccap41]

36 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

A  little bit of bias, yes. I have no issue with Benz cars, they build some awesome stuff. I have issues with people being Benz fanboi's just for the sake of being a benz Fanboi. But I have the same issue with vintage Mopar guys, Jeep guys, diesel truck owners, Miata nerds, etc. 

Love what you want to love, but don't shove it down my throat. Same concept works really well for the three "toxic" subjects of sex, politics, and religion. 

100%, fanboys of anything are the worst. Like, say, a McIntosh fanboy. 

[A Horse With No Name]

6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

100%, fanboys of anything are the worst. Like, say, a McIntosh fanboy. 

It's funny because my friend Andy has a music loving wife and two music loving teenage daughters. He has had the same basic cheap audio system for 30 years and it runs 20 hours a day playing music....

Andy's dad has a fortune in MacIntosh stuff that he never uses. 

YMMV.

[A Horse With No Name]

Funny....

 

 

[ccap41]

Sounds like it's a UConnect system with a McIntosh page. 

 

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Sounds like it's a UConnect system with a McIntosh page. 

 

Yes it does...

[surreal1272]

3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

100%, fanboys of anything are the worst. Like, say, a McIntosh fanboy. 

Hold up now. I’m feeling personally attacked here. 

[David]

4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Sounds like it's a UConnect system with a McIntosh page. 

 

Thank you, This is a Bummer as the McIntosh implies a different story and yet this clearly is saying that it is no different than GM or MB in being a speaker system. I am bummed!  Thank you again,

2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Hold up now. I’m feeling personally attacked here. 

No, No, His Trolling was pointed at me as a McIntosh Fanboy versus you being a music consurer.  

[balthazar]

On 8/19/2021 at 10:14 AM, balthazar said:

Junkland is no more. It was fun while it lasted.  
 

[riviera74]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Junkland is no more. It was fun while it lasted.  
 

Donated, yard sale, or just thrown away?

[balthazar]

It was my wife's cousin's mother's house. 
He spent about 20 years completely pigging it up. 
I actually went thru 100% of that attic (top pic is before that), looking for family mementos & interesting vintage stuff. Nothing worthwhile left to donate anywhere.
Took me (4) partial days to get thru.
Cleaning crew emptied it this week- going to the dump.

My son & I are certainly not above combing thru scenarios like this; we like vintage 'stuff'. 
 

[balthazar]

[regfootball]

Twice now in the last couple weeks I’ve gone to park with TourX and a Cascada is right there next to me   Last time though there was quite the milfoil cougar to go with it. 

[balthazar]

'09 Cuyahoga electric, on the juice meter.

No documented cases of one running into a lit-up emergency vehicle by itself, or burning down to it's rims.
 

[daves87rs]

On 8/20/2021 at 1:07 PM, A Horse With No Name said:

I buy Grado headphones. They are made in the USA by a company that has been owned by the same family since 1953.

https://gradolabs.com/headphones

 

I find I really enjoy listening to headphone music at times. Just me and music, nothing else. 

Especially for a jog/walk….

[riviera74]

17 hours ago, balthazar said:

'09 Cuyahoga electric, on the juice meter.

No documented cases of one running into a lit-up emergency vehicle by itself, or burning down to it's rims.
 

Too bad Elon Musk cannot get Tesla to perform GM-level quality control.

[ccap41]

On 8/20/2021 at 4:48 PM, surreal1272 said:

Hold up now. I’m feeling personally attacked here. 

Hahaha Nahh, exactly what David said below your comment. 🤣

[ccap41]

On 8/20/2021 at 7:04 PM, David said:

Thank you, This is a Bummer as the McIntosh implies a different story and yet this clearly is saying that it is no different than GM or MB in being a speaker system. I am bummed!  Thank you again,

No problem, and I would not have thought they would give a 3rd party 100% control of the user interface unless that was the only head unit going in the vehicle. 

[Drew Dowdell]

On 7/21/2021 at 9:32 PM, David said:

Have to say the Jeep Wagoner is looking Awesome! 

https://www.jeep.com/wagoneer.html

I think they look ungainly and awkward.  If I'm spending $110k plus on a 3-row full size SUV, I'm getting something with pedigree, has night vision, and that can drive itself.

 

 

[Drew Dowdell]

On 7/23/2021 at 8:43 PM, balthazar said:

Correct. It was pitched to Cadillac (thusly badged LaSalle), but Cadillac didn't have the production capacity (only 1 plant). It was then opened up to the other divisions, but Buick was the only one who agreed not to alter the design. Buick also had recently seen a fairly drastic fall in sales, from #3 in '56 to #10 in '60. They really wanted it. 

Interesting! Wouldn't it have collided with Eldorado though? Or would there have been a large enough size and content difference to leave room for both?

[surreal1272]

On 8/21/2021 at 8:18 PM, balthazar said:

'09 Cuyahoga electric, on the juice meter.

No documented cases of one running into a lit-up emergency vehicle by itself, or burning down to it's rims.
 

Probably because there were only 800 of them made lol. Not exactly a large sample pool to go with there.

[Drew Dowdell]

On 7/26/2021 at 4:49 PM, A Horse With No Name said:

Intelligent question...

 

 

One more vintage racing pic, and then I am done for the day...

 

Ever notice that in the search for intelligent life, all of the sensors are pointed away from earth?

On 7/30/2021 at 9:53 AM, trinacriabob said:

This was definitely random.  I was looking at photos in the review of the new Kia K5 and saw photos of the last Riv in another link.

I miss interiors and cabins like this.  A lot.

There was an aftermarket wood paneling kit that gives it a Jaguar feel.  soo much richer looking.  If I had one of these I would do it. I like the burled one better. I'd need to swap out that Cavalier shifter though. 

[Drew Dowdell]

On 7/31/2021 at 9:57 AM, surreal1272 said:

A perfect example of the bizarro world that is known as the used car market. This my Flex right now, private party value. I paid $12,500 for it 18 months ago.

Same:

Avalanche, 12 months and 14,000 miles later, yet I paid $32k

 

Chrysler 300C - 10 months and 10k miles later, I paid $23k

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Interesting! Wouldn't it have collided with Eldorado though? Or would there have been a large enough size and content difference to leave room for both?

Yeah- Eldo was still full-size / standard body, Riv was 208"; certainly could've worked, maybe. 
Eldo should never have reverted to a single body / almost invisible trim differences in '61- Cadillac should have kept a hardtop AND the Brougham.

[Drew Dowdell]

On 8/19/2021 at 5:19 PM, surreal1272 said:

From what I can tell, neither does Burmester. Both make sweet systems but I’d still take a top notch McIntosh over an equal Burmester, and I have heard both (home systems) but my sound budget does not line up with my real budget lol. Again, dreaming. 
 

Agreed on Bose though. Middle of the road stereos and speakers at best. 

 

On 8/19/2021 at 5:29 PM, ccap41 said:

The thing is, neither is *actually* comparable to what both make for home theaters and they're GREATLY restricted to what the auto manufacturer will allow. 

My point was just the statement, "Having it in a Grand Wagoneer does take it to the Luxury Level that even Mercedes has not met yet." Is complete BS. 

 

On 8/19/2021 at 5:14 PM, ccap41 said:

You do realize they're not putting a single component from their home theater setups in a Jeep, right? 

Unless you've sat in a 2020+ S-Class with the specific system optioned, you haven't heard the system I linked above. 

Bose has always had very, VERY below average car audio. Nobody I've talked to in peson or online has thought they were anything worthwhile in automobiles. They were better than the none-Bose systems but that's about it. 

I have some hearing difficulties, not enough to impede my daily life, but enough that music and specifically lyrics give me difficulty.  I enjoy music immensely, but I need to feel it and lyrics are difficult for me to discern.  Albert hates it because I need the bass pumping or the pipe organs at full. 

That said, one of the best vehicle audio systems I've encountered was the Fender system that VW was putting into the Jetta a few years back.  Bose is just the bare minimum, Bose Panarey is slightly above that.  Harmon Kardon is meh. The Burmester and B&O systems were good but didn't blow me away... but to be fair, no car audio system has. 

I would say that the Sony system that Ford used in some of the Flex/Explorer/Edge models was pretty good too... a worthwhile upgrade. They seem to have since moved to B&O.

The super high end luxury audio houses don't seem to be doing much more than throwing more speakers in a car in yet another dick waving race.  It seems about as much of an upgrade as a fake LV bag.... only good for the bragging rights of saying you spent $3k extra for someone else to put branding in your car.

Also @ccap41 Cadillac was putting surround sound in the seats in 2008 before Benz did. Benz did have surround available, but it was just a 10 speaker system with nothing in the seat unlike the 15 speaker system in the STS. 

[Drew Dowdell]

47 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Yeah- Eldo was still full-size / standard body, Riv was 208"; certainly could've worked, maybe. 
Eldo should never have reverted to a single body / almost invisible trim differences in '61- Cadillac should have kept a hardtop AND the Brougham.

Ah okay... so the 63 model as a LaSalle.  I was confused because I was thinking of the '67 Eldorado and I thought that would be too close to comfort for the Riviera to co-exist.