Alternative Fuels & Propulsion RANDOM

[Robert Hall]

2 minutes ago, balthazar said:

They only moved 11K H1s in 15 yrs, when it started @ $53K ($68K adjusted). This is significantly above that price tier; it’s not going to sell MORE. 
I thought the ‘goal’ was to expand EVs, not render them almost exclusively as rare niche vehicles you never see.

Sounds like this Hummer sub-brand is going to be for high end exclusive models,  they have Chevy for the volume EVs like the Bolt.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Robert Hall

[David]

51 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

That's the original problem.  It seems every automaker wants to sell expensive EVs when the market needs cheap ones.  If you want to get ICE off the road, EVs must be cheap enough to displace the used car market period.  The first automaker that sells a quality EV for $15K brand new will own the market for a long time.  I actively wonder if it will be a Chinese automaker who will do just that. 

GM already does that in China with a 5K cost EV that is the number 1 seller there. We will get them, just to cover initial R&D, they are doing what all companies do, come out on top with a high end model first.

Home Theater, TV's, Stereo's, Furniture, appliances, etc. all come out with high end products catered to the rich and then we get the tech pushed down as economy of scale builds up. They sold 15,000 in the first 20 days and sales have just gone up from there replacing VW with the #1 selling auto.

https://gulfnews.com/auto/news/teslas-nemesis-in-china-is-a-tiny-5000-ev-from-gm-1.1601218899408

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/09/26/gm-china-electric-micro-car-wuling-mini-ev/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/gm-sells-15-000-low-cost-evs-for-china-in-first-20-days/ar-BB18mr3I

https://jalopnik.com/gm-is-selling-more-evs-than-tesla-in-china-1844982463

[A Horse With No Name]

This looks like an interesting project...

Obligatory ICE in the Electric thread...would love to drive these NC trails. 

 

 

[balthazar]

2 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Sounds like this Hummer sub-brand is going to be for high end exclusive models...

And that’s fine, as long as the pretense that a 1%er vehicle like this is going to do much of anything towards displacing established segment leaders is dropped.

1 hour ago, David said:

Home Theater, TV's, Stereo's, Furniture, appliances, etc. all come out with high end products catered to the rich and then we get the tech pushed down as economy of scale builds up.

The fatal flaw in your analogy is that there weren’t government agencies threatening a hard date where low-end affordable stereos would be outlawed.

[David]

2 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Sounds like this Hummer sub-brand is going to be for high end exclusive models,  they have Chevy for the volume EVs like the Bolt.

They are following a normal high end to medium level auto's to help recover initial R&D. Hummer Edition 1 is the Denali of the Trucks / SUVs. They do have lower end versions.

28 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

This looks like an interesting project...

Totally agree, should be an interesting project. But I do worry about his Cheap as possible approach.

18 minutes ago, balthazar said:

And that’s fine, as long as the pretense that a 1%er vehicle like this is going to do much of anything towards displacing established segment leaders is dropped.

The fatal flaw in your analogy is that there weren’t government agencies threatening a hard date where low-end affordable stereos would be outlawed.

Yet we now have Ford, Chevrolet, as well as other OEMs and startups that all say they will have low end starter EV's by 2025 which makes the 2035 mandate of no new ICE sales possible. If GM gets their entry level EVs all worked out and finally get the last of the safety requirements done to bring in Micro, sub compact and compact EVs into the market, that will also be a big game changer.

[Robert Hall]

2 hours ago, David said:

GM already does that in China with a 5K cost EV that is the number 1 seller there. We will get them, just to cover initial R&D, they are doing what all companies do, come out on top with a high end model first.

 

 

Maybe GM can engineer a US version of this Mini EV for $20k and call it the Chevy Sparky or Spark-E.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Robert Hall

[David]

6 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Maybe GM can engineer a US version of this Mini EV for $20k and call it the Chevy Sparky or Spark-E.

I can also see them building a Micro Pickup EV for inner city use. I know way too many people that love living in the inner city, have little yards / gardens and want a mini or micro pickup for their home depot runs, etc.

I can see a valid market for such a truck.

[A Horse With No Name]

18 minutes ago, David said:

I can also see them building a Micro Pickup EV for inner city use. I know way too many people that love living in the inner city, have little yards / gardens and want a mini or micro pickup for their home depot runs, etc.

I can see a valid market for such a truck.

Lifted and rolling on 44 inch mud tires, yes...

IF the hummer EV is too expensive for Balthy and 'Blu...there is always this in terms of ICE

 

[A Horse With No Name]

If you skip to the 6:20 mark, they blow up an H3 Hummer...at least one ICE coming to an end here...

[Robert Hall]

24 minutes ago, David said:

I can also see them building a Micro Pickup EV for inner city use. I know way too many people that love living in the inner city, have little yards / gardens and want a mini or micro pickup for their home depot runs, etc.

I can see a valid market for such a truck.

Could work in suburbia also... if I didn't prefer SUVs, I could see having something like a Ridgeline or the upcoming Ford Maverick to haul stuff occasionally for the yard...maybe a Ranger or Colorado.  I've never had a use for a typical Bloatbeast 150-350 truck..

[A Horse With No Name]

1 minute ago, Robert Hall said:

Could work in suburbia also... if I didn't prefer SUVs, I could see having something like a Ridgeline or the upcoming Ford Maverick to haul stuff occasionally for the yard...maybe a Ranger or Colorado.  I've never had a use for a typical Bloatbeast 150-350 truck..

I love my Ranger, huge fan of both the Colorado and the Ridgeline. 

[Robert Hall]

2 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I love my Ranger, huge fan of both the Colorado and the Ridgeline. 

I'd like to see Jeep do a Comanche pickup...based off the Grand Cherokee with a useful bed, like the Ridgeline but RWD/AWD...I'd find something like that more interesting than the Gladiator.

[A Horse With No Name]

51 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I'd like to see Jeep do a Comanche pickup...based off the Grand Cherokee with a useful bed, like the Ridgeline but RWD/AWD...I'd find something like that more interesting than the Gladiator.

The 1970's Jeep J10 was a nice size, as was the 80's Cherokee based pickup truck. My wife would feel more comfortable driving that than a Gladiator. 

 

Just looked at the review of this....skip ahead to 3:04 or so. The tailgate now swings up....I could see this for camping, seriously.  Set up a nice little table and be out of the rain and elements. Also, in blue, people would be less likely to think of me as a creeper. 

 

Comacne size would be perfect. 

 

Nicely modified by one of my favorite youtube guys...

 

 

[A Horse With No Name]

That modfied jeep has some fabulous fabrication work done to it....one of my all time favorite rigs. 

[A Horse With No Name]

 

[balthazar]

5 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

The cheap stuff will come from Chevy like the Bolt...

Ay $38K, the Bolt certainly isn’t “cheap”.

[David]

2 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

If you skip to the 6:20 mark, they blow up an H3 Hummer...at least one ICE coming to an end here...

RIP to a nice little Hummer!

As expected the Marauder does take some damage but survived the same explosion since it is military grade for IEDs.

3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Ay $38K, the Bolt certainly isn’t “cheap”.

I am expecting the BOLT to drop in price for generation 2 as they bring out the Bolt Extended length to replace the current price point on the same platform.

[ocnblu]

5 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

The tailgate now swings up

There's always been a choice between liftgate and traditional barn doors on the Transit Connect.

[riviera74]

10 hours ago, David said:

GM already does that in China with a 5K cost EV that is the number 1 seller there. We will get them, just to cover initial R&D, they are doing what all companies do, come out on top with a high end model first.

Home Theater, TV's, Stereo's, Furniture, appliances, etc. all come out with high end products catered to the rich and then we get the tech pushed down as economy of scale builds up. They sold 15,000 in the first 20 days and sales have just gone up from there replacing VW with the #1 selling auto.

https://gulfnews.com/auto/news/teslas-nemesis-in-china-is-a-tiny-5000-ev-from-gm-1.1601218899408

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/09/26/gm-china-electric-micro-car-wuling-mini-ev/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/gm-sells-15-000-low-cost-evs-for-china-in-first-20-days/ar-BB18mr3I

https://jalopnik.com/gm-is-selling-more-evs-than-tesla-in-china-1844982463

Question: Since MINI Coopers are not great sellers, FIAT 500 models are not great sellers, and SMART had to leave the US market because of very poor sales, what makes you think that this subcompact EV will sell in the US or Canada at all?  If that subcompact were the size of an Equinox for about $25K fully loaded, then we can talk since THAT vehicle will sell and take market share from everybody else.

Now, when will GM and/or Ford sell such an EV at that price level I just mentioned?

[A Horse With No Name]

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

There's always been a choice between liftgate and traditional barn doors on the Transit Connect.

I did not know that. I seriously want one for camping and hauling lumber. I could seriously put it to good use.

[David]

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

Question: Since MINI Coopers are not great sellers, FIAT 500 models are not great sellers, and SMART had to leave the US market because of very poor sales, what makes you think that this subcompact EV will sell in the US or Canada at all?  If that subcompact were the size of an Equinox for about $25K fully loaded, then we can talk since THAT vehicle will sell and take market share from everybody else.

Now, when will GM and/or Ford sell such an EV at that price level I just mentioned?

I think the Mini, Fiat and Smart failed as it did not give what people were really wanting. A micro sized Pickup hauls two people and a 6 ft bed would give them what they want. People want trucks and suvs in all sizes right now.

@balthazar @riviera74 @A Horse With No Name @Robert Hall @ykX

Guess everyone underestimated GM hitting a home run as in the first 10 minutes, the first year of Hummer EV pickup for 2021, the 2022 model year has sold out. You can get a reservation for 2023 model year.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-gmc-hummer-ev-truck-edition1-sold-out/

https://insideevs.com/news/450119/gmc-hummer-ev-edition-1-sold-out/

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/gmc-hummer-ev-sold-out

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/gmc-hummer-ev-sold-out-reservations-edition-1-production/

[daves87rs]

On 10/20/2020 at 10:02 AM, A Horse With No Name said:

If you actually watch the RAV 4 prime video, they really like it. Methinks people test driving Hybrid and electric vehicles will like them much better, accelerating their acceptance. 

Looks pretty good to me!

[David]

Detailed Media Releases on the Hummer EV

https://media.gmc.com/media/us/en/gmc/home.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2020/oct/1021-hummer-edition-1-experience.html

https://media.gmc.com/media/us/en/gmc/home.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2020/oct/1021-hummer-edition-1-off-road.html

https://media.gmc.com/media/us/en/gmc/home.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2020/oct/1021-hummer-edition-1-performance.html

https://media.gmc.com/media/us/en/gmc/hummer-ev.html

[daves87rs]

11 minutes ago, David said:

Detailed Media Releases on the Hummer EV

https://media.gmc.com/media/us/en/gmc/home.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2020/oct/1021-hummer-edition-1-experience.html

https://media.gmc.com/media/us/en/gmc/home.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2020/oct/1021-hummer-edition-1-off-road.html

https://media.gmc.com/media/us/en/gmc/home.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2020/oct/1021-hummer-edition-1-performance.html

https://media.gmc.com/media/us/en/gmc/hummer-ev.html

Would  love to have one...bit out of my price range though!

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I seriously want one for camping and hauling lumber.

Transit Connect load floor is LESS than 6 feet long (70").

[A Horse With No Name]

3 hours ago, balthazar said:

Transit Connect load floor is LESS than 6 feet long (70").

I would get the longer version. Usually I break down lumber at the sawmill into oversize parts of what I want to build. Then I plane and Joint the lumber in my shop. 

But good point as I would want it long enough to sleep inside. 

I seriously dislike the other small cargo vans on the market so Transit connect is the only game in town here.

If I do need to move fill length lumber I have the Ranger or easy access to several friends with F150's.

And if I need a bunch of lumber...both Kiem lumber and 5th Ave lumber will happily deliver any order over $500.

4 hours ago, daves87rs said:

Would  love to have one...bit out of my price range though!

They will build cheaper trucks with time.

5 hours ago, David said:

I think the Mini, Fiat and Smart failed as it did not give what people were really wanting. A micro sized Pickup hauls two people and a 6 ft bed would give them what they want. People want trucks and suvs in all sizes right now.

@balthazar @riviera74 @A Horse With No Name @Robert Hall @ykX

Guess everyone underestimated GM hitting a home run as in the first 10 minutes, the first year of Hummer EV pickup for 2021, the 2022 model year has sold out. You can get a reservation for 2023 model year.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-gmc-hummer-ev-truck-edition1-sold-out/

https://insideevs.com/news/450119/gmc-hummer-ev-edition-1-sold-out/

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/gmc-hummer-ev-sold-out

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/gmc-hummer-ev-sold-out-reservations-edition-1-production/

Or even something the size of the original S10.

[daves87rs]

Yep, about 80 grand to start.....not quite as bad....

[balthazar]

Of course we need to see what the '24 base model is equipped like, but the 'much cheaper to build an EV' thing still isn't getting passed on to consumers... at ALL. If such were true, the base Hummer should come in UNDER the original H1 in price- more like $55 instead of $80K.

[David]

21 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Of course we need to see what the '24 base model is equipped like, but the 'much cheaper to build an EV' thing still isn't getting passed on to consumers... at ALL. If such were true, the base Hummer should come in UNDER the original H1 in price- more like $55 instead of $80K.

Cannot live in the past prices though, everything has gotten more expensive as incomes have gone up. As such, prices will come down but after years of R&D on technology for this Hummer EV. They are doing a natural Business case of building the luxury rich persons version first and then we will see lower priced versions. 

I expect the Chevrolet Full Size EV truck that is also coming to be much cheaper and RWD as well as AWD to be in the price range most people expect.

[Robert Hall]

Future EV pickups..will be interesting to see how many of these actually are produced and how many go nowhere...

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/10/21/electric-pickup-truck-list/

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, David said:

Cannot live in the past prices though...

It’s not past prices, hence the term ‘adjusted’. H1 IC today would be $68K, a “cheaper to build” E version should come in below that, not twelve grand higher.

1 hour ago, David said:

I expect the Chevrolet Full Size EV truck that is also coming to be much cheaper

It SHOULD be within $1000 of the IC version... but I actually expect it’ll be about 10 grand more. “Cheaper to build EVs” is still just vaporware.

[A Horse With No Name]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Of course we need to see what the '24 base model is equipped like, but the 'much cheaper to build an EV' thing still isn't getting passed on to consumers... at ALL. If such were true, the base Hummer should come in UNDER the original H1 in price- more like $55 instead of $80K.

I am not worried about price. I think the tech is cool and the vehicle is cool. I will never own one...I will never own a supercharged 39 Graham or a Range Rover Evoque either... doesn't keep me from thinking all 3 vehicles are hella cool.

5 minutes ago, balthazar said:

It’s not past prices, hence the term ‘adjusted’. H1 IC today would be $68K, a “cheaper to build” E version should come in below that, not twelve grand higher.

Agreed...but we have been building infrastructure and supply chain support for ICE for 130 years...ICE has a bit of a head start.

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Of course we need to see what the '24 base model is equipped like, but the 'much cheaper to build an EV' thing still isn't getting passed on to consumers... at ALL. If such were true, the base Hummer should come in UNDER the original H1 in price- more like $55 instead of $80K.

Adjusted for inflation a 56 Ford F100 is s about 17 grand...I will take one of those please.

[surreal1272]

On 10/21/2020 at 5:44 AM, ocnblu said:

The Ford F-150 Raptor also has 390.00 / 468.00 city/highway driving range on a single tank, AND (get this!) 100% of that driving range can be restored in about FIVE MINUTES.  Even if you do get wrapped up in your off-road adventure and run out of (dino) juice "out there", if you carry an extra can of gas, you can get home!  So... Ford is already ahead of GM in technology when it comes to "off road beasts", at less than half the price.  Added bonus... the only thing embarrassing about the Ford is the exhaust note from the 3.5L V6!

What’s really nice is that you can fill up the Raptor at your home while you sleep, get 1000HP and go 0-60 in 3 seconds. Oh wait. That’s the Hummer EV.

 

Just skip the part where that same company, Ford, is getting ready to release an EV F-150. Yeah, real ahead on the tech there, I tell you what.

[ccap41]

Remember when I said the Hummer EV would be 100k, with everything they're promising and David was like "it'll start in the 50's". 🤣

Their "cheap" one isn't due for another four years and that's 80k. 

On 10/20/2020 at 7:36 PM, David said:

3 Motor Edition 1 will start at $99,995.00

$112,695. 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I am not worried about price. I think the tech is cool and the vehicle is cool. I will never own one...I will never own a supercharged 39 Graham or a Range Rover Evoque either... doesn't keep me from thinking all 3 vehicles are hella cool.

Agreed...but we have been building infrastructure and supply chain support for ICE for 130 years...ICE has a bit of a head start.

OEMs aren’t in business to build things you think are cool from afar, tho.
 

I don’t believe ‘infrastructure’ as you use it here (fueling) has anything to do with MSRP. Plus, the country’s been electrified for 100 years now.

[daves87rs]

3 hours ago, balthazar said:

Of course we need to see what the '24 base model is equipped like, but the 'much cheaper to build an EV' thing still isn't getting passed on to consumers... at ALL. If such were true, the base Hummer should come in UNDER the original H1 in price- more like $55 instead of $80K.

I think it will depend on how successful it ends up. I could live with just 250 miles, and don’t really need the fancy cruise, adjustable height, or a few other things. I think this could be a lot of fun for many folks even if they only get 70% of it. Most of us do not need all of the toys on it.’

The only thing that I would like to see stay would be the removable roof. It is cool, and every truck having it would keep the cost down. I think GM is trying this to see where their future EV trucks are going to look like with their whole truck line’s future.

Who knows what other ideas might come out of it....

[A Horse With No Name]

13 minutes ago, balthazar said:

OEMs aren’t in business to build things you think are cool from afar, tho.
 

I don’t believe ‘infrastructure’ as you use it here (fueling) has anything to do with MSRP. Plus, the country’s been electrified for 100 years now.

Good thing as what I find interesting and what most people want to buy is wildly different.

I was thinking more in terms of technology and supply chain but I get your point on 100 years.

[surreal1272]

22 minutes ago, balthazar said:

OEMs aren’t in business to build things you think are cool from afar, tho.
 

I don’t believe ‘infrastructure’ as you use it here (fueling) has anything to do with MSRP. Plus, the country’s been electrified for 100 years now.

Yes, its been around 100 years yet infrastructure has only been around a few decades, with widespread adoption taking place only in there last decade. BIG difference there.

On 10/20/2020 at 8:29 PM, balthazar said:

It’s pretty cool; GMC put a lot of engineering into it... but the 3 motor version will be priced for the millionaire class, not everyday truck owners. 

$80K ICE Pick ups (like every loaded up HD out there), in general, aren't for everyday pick up owners. Meanwhile, all pre-orders for the 2021 Hummer EV are spoken for. Now we will see if GM can actually deliver on the promise.

[David]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

OEMs aren’t in business to build things you think are cool from afar, tho.
 

I don’t believe ‘infrastructure’ as you use it here (fueling) has anything to do with MSRP. Plus, the country’s been electrified for 100 years now.

Electrified yes, but the battery tech with charging is only recent, not 100 years old. Yes we could go even older with supposed batteries found in Egypt. Yes Batteries have been around a long time too, human intelligence took time to grow to the point where we are now making huge gains in tech that will change our world for the better I believe.

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Remember when I said the Hummer EV would be 100k, with everything they're promising and David was like "it'll start in the 50's". 🤣

Their "cheap" one isn't due for another four years and that's 80k. 

$112,695. 

Yes your right, I was clearly looking at the Hummer EV3X that is 800 HP, 3 motors, etc.

[balthazar]

1 minute ago, David said:

...the battery tech with charging is only recent, not 100 years old.

Can you clarify this statement further?

[David]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Remember when I said the Hummer EV would be 100k, with everything they're promising and David was like "it'll start in the 50's". 🤣

Their "cheap" one isn't due for another four years and that's 80k. 

$112,695. 

In regard to me thinking positive that they will start in the $50K range, Gotta be positive on all new tech. Chevrolet version will probably be there since clearly Hummer is the Cadillac version of the trucks.

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

Can you clarify this statement further?

Clarify? Ya mean how we can now do a 350V fast charge something that did not exist 100 years ago. Faster charging will come as battery tech continues to make jumps.

I can also see just like ICE with a Jeep Wrangler having a couple of 5 gallon tanks full of petro. I can see replaceable battery packs eventually that are solid state you would have fully charged when you go off road to swap out to keep on wheeling, use, etc.

[balthazar]

OK- I thought so: you’re micro-focusing. ‘cause it read like ‘batteries weren’t rechargeable 100 years ago’.

[Robert Hall]

27 minutes ago, balthazar said:

OK- I thought so: you’re micro-focusing. ‘cause it read like ‘batteries weren’t rechargeable 100 years ago’.

Hmmm...MicroFocus..

Old school, yet still strangely useful.

[balthazar]

 Nerd. 😉

[Robert Hall]

20 minutes ago, balthazar said:

 Nerd. 😉

Yes, hardcore..though I haven't had to deal w/ COBOL other than one class in college over 30 years ago...

(COBOL is an old school computer programming language dating to 1959, but still in use today in many backend systems in banking and other niches..it's evolved quite a bit over the decades). 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Robert Hall

[David]

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

Yes, hardcore..though I haven't had to deal w/ COBOL other than one class in college over 30 years ago...

(COBOL is an old school computer programming language dating to 1959, but still in use today in many backend systems in banking and other niches..it's evolved quite a bit over the decades). 

Seattle School district a few years ago paid 3 men millions of dollars to come out of retirement to help get their data off a custom Cobol based scheduling system and onto a modern school scheduling system. Was crazy as they also just last year decommissioned their attendance system which was based on Digitals VMS system which I admit to having worked on.

NERDS Rule!!!  

[Robert Hall]

22 minutes ago, David said:

Seattle School district a few years ago paid 3 men millions of dollars to come out of retirement to help get their data off a custom Cobol based scheduling system and onto a modern school scheduling system. Was crazy as they also just last year decommissioned their attendance system which was based on Digitals VMS system which I admit to having worked on.

NERDS Rule!!!  

In 2008-2009, I worked on a Java-based implementation of an online bill view/payment system for the City of Phoenix Water Department, and to understand the database model and the existing COBOL system they had to bring in a couple retired Cobol programmers to explain it...we worked with a printed binder of the database model!   It was crazy, the Water Department IT cube farm looked like hadn't changed since the 70s except for the semi-modern desktop computers...

[David]

2 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

In 2008-2009, I worked on a Java-based implementation of an online bill view/payment system for the City of Phoenix Water Department, and to understand the database model and the existing COBOL system they had to bring in a couple retired Cobol programmers to explain it...we worked with a printed binder of the database model!   It was crazy, the Water Department IT cube farm looked like hadn't changed since the 70s except for the semi-modern desktop computers...

That just has all kinds of Stupid written all over it as there is no reason to stay that dated other than just plain laziness IMHO. Crazy how govs will waste money on archaic stuff.

[ccap41]

3 hours ago, David said:

In regard to me thinking positive that they will start in the $50K range, Gotta be positive on all new tech. Chevrolet version will probably be there since clearly Hummer is the Cadillac version of the trucks.

Me thinking it would start at 100k wasn't me being negative though. It's just being realistic as EV are priced significantly more than ICE and the things they were featuring, like 1000hp and 4 wheel steer, are things that'll make them more expensive. 

A Bolt is nearly 40k. A super truck with super capabilities was going to be through the roof, imo. 

[Robert Hall]

1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

 

A Bolt is nearly 40k. 

Which is crazy, that little potato looks like it should be around $20k tops...