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Cadillac News: The Non-V CT4 Revealed


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When Cadillac introduced the CT4 back on May 30th, they only introduced the V-series version of the car. Today Cadillac unveiled the standard versions of the car in Sport, Luxury, and Premium Luxury trims.  Each one styled slightly differently, the Luxury and Premium Luxury models come with brighter exterior accents and metallic grilles.  The Sport version is has a more aggressive mesh grille, sportier fascias, rear spoiler, darkened accents and model specific 18-inch wheels. 

CT4 Luxury:
Leather Steering wheel
8-inch Touch or Dial operated infotainment system
Android Auto and Apple CarPlay
Dual Zone Climate Control
Active Noise Cancelation

CT4 Premium Luxury:
Leather seating
LED Ambient Lighting
Alluminum trim
RainSense
Forward Collision Alert
Front Pedestrian Braking
Automatic Emergency Braking
Rear Park Assist
Safety Alert Seat

CT4 Sport:
All of Premium Luxury
Sport Seats
Unique Trim
Alloy Pedals
Brembo front brakes

CT4-V:
Limited Slip Rear Differential
Magnetic Ride Control (RWD Only) or ZF MVS Passive Dampers (AWD)
Available SuperCruise (later in 2020)

 Power wise, the CT4 has a choice of 3 power configurations.  The 2.0-liter turbo has 237 horsepower and 258 lb-ft of torque and is connected to an 8-speed automatic transmission.  The 2.7-liter turbo in the Premium Luxury produces 309 horsepower and 348 lb.-ft of torque or in the V gets 325 horsepower and 380 lb.-ft of torque.  Both 2.7 liters route power through a 10-speed automatic.  Both the 2.0 and 2.7 have a three-step sliding camshaft design, active fuel management, and automatic start-stop.

The Cadillac CT4 will be available for ordering later this year with pricing announced closer to production.

 

 


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The Cadillac needs more wood.... or am I just being old-fashioned?

I mean, if I wanted to get petty, I could point out that GMC sells 25% - 30% of its lineup as a Denali, which is mostly a chrome and leather package that cost $5k. Yet Denali sales alone outsell all o

People complain Mercedes is overpriced and poor value, then complain that Mercedes are too cheap and too low end.  Hmm, can’t be both ways. I don’t think Cadillac needs a luxury Cruze or anything

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11 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

The trunk area is still a visual disaster but overall, it’s a nice looking ride. 

This would be too small for me unfortunately. I'm thinking a CT5 with SuperCruise sometime in my future unless I get a new house. 

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2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I wonder how they will price it.  

Also not sure why they offer a 309 hp and a 325 hp version, seems a bit redundant.

Between the A-Class and the newly more expensive CLA (now $37,645 for 2020) base price.  The CT5 is starting in the $38k range and that's basically CTS sized.  Cadillac is aiming to be the most spacious in their respective price class. 

and because horsepower doesn't matter when the torque is jumping by that much. It's a 10-speed automatic, that 380 lb.-ft will always be available 

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1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

This would be too small for me unfortunately. I'm thinking a CT5 with SuperCruise sometime in my future unless I get a new house. 

Same here. The size wouldn’t work for me but overall it seems to be a nice package for folks looking at that class of car. 

9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

CT5 is $38k, I wonder if this will start at $29,995.  I think Cadillac is smart to go with size and value, it is the only strategy that has ever worked for them.

You mean like what Benz did when they began selling cars like the CLA, GLA, and A Class? Yes, smart move. 

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1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Same here. The size wouldn’t work for me but overall it seems to be a nice package for folks looking at that class of car. 

You mean like what Benz did when they began selling cars like the CLA, GLA, and A Class? Yes, smart move. 

CT4 is the size of a C-class, which starts at $41,400.  They need at least a $10k undercut to give the CT4 a chance.  No demand for a Cadillac the size of the A-class.

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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

CT4 is the size of a C-class, which starts at $41,400.  They need at least a $10k undercut to give the CT4 a chance.  No demand for a Cadillac the size of the A-class.

Of course not. Cadillacs are meant to be big... not sardine cans like the A-Class. 

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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

CT4 is the size of a C-class, which starts at $41,400.  They need at least a $10k undercut to give the CT4 a chance.  No demand for a Cadillac the size of the A-class.

That literally has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. At a lower price point, it gets priced with the lower end model A Class which is Mercedes value priced luxury car. Same formula only the Cadillac comes on the better end of it. 

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That is my point, the CT4 should be priced like an A-class and sized like a C-Class.  Cadillac needs to push size for price, that is their only working strategy.  Every other play they have tried in the past 20 years failed.

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I am liking this more and more, a kind of reskin that looks good.  The white one pictures here are nice.  And the interior is much improved.  But as mentioned, the size of it is small and that has always been a problem for the ATS, its just that much too small that it hurt sales.

With a new motor, trans, and interior and the reskin if they keep the price in line, it may develop into a decent entry level car.  To do that, GM will have to get the cheap leases going.

I really dig the dash design of the CT4 and CT5.

Still annoyed that blind spot is not standard on a caddy.

It hurts that the Ct4 looks way nicer than the CT5 IMO

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11 minutes ago, frogger said:

The CT4 looks very good until the ugly rear end, Ct5 is ugly from the C-pillar back.

 

Yeah, side profile and front are fine...the rear would be better if they moved the license plate mounting up into the trunklid and squared off the trunklid opening.....it just looks weird the way it's placed and too many lines.  The weird recesses around the taillights also don't help, they make the trunklid appear to bulge outward. 

   I like the roofline and C-pillars, very similar to the ATS with none of the weirdness of the CT5. 

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16 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Same here. The size wouldn’t work for me but overall it seems to be a nice package for folks looking at that class of car. 

You mean like what Benz did when they began selling cars like the CLA, GLA, and A Class? Yes, smart move. 

Exactly. What Cadillac needs to do is realize a huge thing that they missed since Wagoner and Co left RenCen... that they could offer Bentley levels of luxury.. but because they are AMERICAN.. in this age.. they will always be considered not as worth of higher costs over the Germans in base packages. In other words.. U can price a CT6 as high as a 7Series... but U must do so strategically and via options and packages. That base price tho.. that must come off like a value. AMERICANS are self loathing.

I challenge even the German's staunchest defender to show me where a based on the CT4's specs thus far.. what makes a comparable 2020 3Series (the leader) a better car to justify a price jump.. other than marketing and longevity in the market place. Ironically.. as I've said many times.. in 2016 I spent $100K on my CTS-V and a friend spent $110K on their M5.. he was disturbed when we both pulled up at spots.. and people wanted to converse about my Cadillac.. take pics standing next to my Cadillac.. and paid no attention to his BMW. Often commenting.. "must be nice." "Is that the V?" "Very classy.. probably cost U a mint.."

BMW M5.. nothin.

Cadillac can pull this is off.. if only they stick to the place.. be consistent.. stop **cking changing names and strategy.. and continue to build. AND 4GODSAKE!!! Don't kill any cars.. add at least 4 more.. one above the 6, coupes for the 4 and 5, and a variant of the C8. 

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Also.. its quite obvious what they did was create a baby CT6 in the CT4. It looks like a scaled down versions and carries its size change very well. Would be nice if the CT8 were coming it be a larger version of the CT5.. which in essence is a scaled down version of the Escala concept

2020-cadillac-ct4-sport-102-1568309524.j

I'm cool with the engine base too. They did a more balanced and proper take on the 2.0L Turbo where the HP may be down as much as 35HP (from a 2014 ATS), but the torque comes in way earlier and continues well into the upper RPMs.. all while giving the model a more fuel efficient option that was once filled by the weak 2.5L. I'm good with this.. because ONCE AGAIN.. if one doesn't like the bottom engine.. they can opt for a more powerful one. CHOICES! LOL.. If Cadillac asked some.. they would only be offering the LT2 in their cars.

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12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

That is my point, the CT4 should be priced like an A-class and sized like a C-Class.  Cadillac needs to push size for price, that is their only working strategy.  Every other play they have tried in the past 20 years failed.

Literally not the point I was making as you have sidestepped it completely. My point is that BOTH companies are playing a value strategy only Cadillacs plan seems to be a better one. I just love how you completely missed the fact that Benz is also playing the value card and has for years now. 

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Who is executing the value play better? Cadillac or Mercedes Benz?

Since the 1980s, Americans have forsaken Lincoln and Cadillac for the Germans (and Lexus since 1990).  The best answer is simply to undercut the Germans and provide more value to the luxury experience.  It may take a generation to be cured of the Germans as luxury standard (Bentley/Rolls Royce aside), but that is what Cadillac and Lincoln must do.

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6 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Who is executing the value play better? Cadillac or Mercedes Benz?

Since the 1980s, Americans have forsaken Lincoln and Cadillac for the Germans (and Lexus since 1990).  The best answer is simply to undercut the Germans and provide more value to the luxury experience.  It may take a generation to be cured of the Germans as luxury standard (Bentley/Rolls Royce aside), but that is what Cadillac and Lincoln must do.

My point was that even the Germans, especially Benz has been the playing value card with their sub-$30K cars and CUVs. Certain German car fans seem to think only Cadillac has to do that to succeed when that is clearly not the case. Cadillacs value plan though seems to be a better one. Now if they’ll just stick with it and execute it, then they will be okay. 

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31 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Literally not the point I was making as you have sidestepped it completely. My point is that BOTH companies are playing a value strategy only Cadillacs plan seems to be a better one. I just love how you completely missed the fact that Benz is also playing the value card and has for years now. 

I don't think Mercedes has played the value card since I've been into vehicles. Just offering a small, cheap car doesn't mean it's much of a "value". I wouldn't consider a 33k sub compact car much of a value proposition. Whereas Cadillac is offering much more size/room for roughly the same dollar amount of Mercedes/BMW/Audi. That shows more car for the dollar which is a value proposition, imo. 

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15 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

My point was that even the Germans, especially Benz has been the playing value card with their sub-$30K cars and CUVs. Certain German car fans seem to think only Cadillac has to do that to succeed when that is clearly not the case. Cadillacs value plan though seems to be a better one. Now if they’ll just stick with it and execute it, then they will be okay. 

@smk4565 thinks that Cadillac has to offer a luxury Cruze to compete with the A-Class, but price it $4k cheaper.  Instead Cadillac is offering a better handling and larger RWD car at the same price as the A-Class. 

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1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

@smk4565 thinks that Cadillac has to offer a luxury Cruze to compete with the A-Class, but price it $4k cheaper.  Instead Cadillac is offering a better handling and larger RWD car at the same price as the A-Class. 

People complain Mercedes is overpriced and poor value, then complain that Mercedes are too cheap and too low end.  Hmm, can’t be both ways.

I don’t think Cadillac needs a luxury Cruze or anything smaller than the CT4, the CT4 will probably be a sales dud even In the low $30s.  A-class will out sell it.  CT5 might do better than CTS did, I think they got the pricing right on that.   But Cadillac has no other option than to price way under the Germans.  

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2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I don't think Mercedes has played the value card since I've been into vehicles. Just offering a small, cheap car doesn't mean it's much of a "value". I wouldn't consider a 33k sub compact car much of a value proposition. Whereas Cadillac is offering much more size/room for roughly the same dollar amount of Mercedes/BMW/Audi. That shows more car for the dollar which is a value proposition, imo. 

Bear in mind that “value” is a subjective term. The CLA was a sub-$30 car when it came out. By any measure, that is a value luxury car for the value luxury crowd. The GLA and A Class are playing to a similar crowd. And as I have already pointed out, Cadillac is just doing it better with this game plan. 

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

People complain Mercedes is overpriced and poor value, then complain that Mercedes are too cheap and too low end.  Hmm, can’t be both ways.

I don’t think Cadillac needs a luxury Cruze or anything smaller than the CT4, the CT4 will probably be a sales dud even In the low $30s.  A-class will out sell it.  CT5 might do better than CTS did, I think they got the pricing right on that.   But Cadillac has no other option than to price way under the Germans.  

You have a problem with context when you talk about those “people”. Oh and are we now saying that sales matter? I ask that because you offer up a different set of excuses when cars like the XT5 and the Escalade outsell their German counterparts. 

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42 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

People complain Mercedes is overpriced and poor value, then complain that Mercedes are too cheap and too low end.  Hmm, can’t be both ways.

I don’t think Cadillac needs a luxury Cruze or anything smaller than the CT4, the CT4 will probably be a sales dud even In the low $30s.  A-class will out sell it.  CT5 might do better than CTS did, I think they got the pricing right on that.   But Cadillac has no other option than to price way under the Germans.  

Yes it can be both ways when Mercedes is putting out both ends of the spectrum.  The A-Class/CLA is just a luxury Cruze… or Cobalt SS if you want to talk about horsepower. 

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5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

People complain Mercedes is overpriced and poor value, then complain that Mercedes are too cheap and too low end.  Hmm, can’t be both ways.

I don’t think Cadillac needs a luxury Cruze or anything smaller than the CT4, the CT4 will probably be a sales dud even In the low $30s.  A-class will out sell it.  CT5 might do better than CTS did, I think they got the pricing right on that.   But Cadillac has no other option than to price way under the Germans.  

Just accept that Mercedes is NOT a Luxury auto only company, but have changed into the Toyota/GM/ just about any other auto company with making cheap to expensive auto's that cover a wide range of income categories.

You cannot be a luxury auto maker only when you are making JCPenny's priced products too.

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1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Yes it can be both ways when Mercedes is putting out both ends of the spectrum.  The A-Class/CLA is just a luxury Cruze… or Cobalt SS if you want to talk about horsepower. 

And to think GM has moved backwards on output on that engine... 

32 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Just accept that Mercedes is NOT a Luxury auto only company, but have changed into the Toyota/GM/ just about any other auto company with making cheap to expensive auto's that cover a wide range of income categories.

You cannot be a luxury auto maker only when you are making JCPenny's prices products too.

Is trolling allowed all of a sudden? 

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8 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

And to think GM has moved backwards on output on that engine... 

Is trolling allowed all of a sudden? 

Agree that GM should have continued to make and branch out with the Supercharged and Turbo charged SS engines.

No, I do not see it as trolling but stating the obvious that @smk4565 continues to ignore. MB is no longer and has not been for the last couple of Decades a Luxury only auto company.

With the amount of Taxis they produce and sell on the E platform which is all hard plastic city to the FWD A-Class. MB which was originally seen only as a luxury auto company has changed to be a global cheap to ubber luxury auto company and as such being compared to Toyota, Chevrolet, Hyundia, etc. is to be expected and warranted.

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I find it strange that we are debating whether Mercedes Benz is a luxury nameplate or not.  The whole luxury perception started in the 1970s when Mercedes Benz were exporting their cars into the USA in large numbers.  In Germany, Mercedes Benz is more like Chevrolet rather than Cadillac.  MB went with the luxury card because it meant higher profits from higher prices period, and that has carried them for the better part of 50 years.

Now, why anyone would buy a Mercedes that is NOT a C-Class or an E-Class or an S-Class CAR is beyond me.  The CUVs are another story.

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5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

People complain Mercedes is overpriced and poor value, then complain that Mercedes are too cheap and too low end.  Hmm, can’t be both ways.

Why not?? Does MB only have a single model?

Upper end vehicles are terrible values because they cost the owner far more in depreciation (as measured in dollars) than others, yet they don't DO anything different than others. If you want to flush $85,000 down the drain in 3 years, buy a top-end MB.
Ans yes; absolutely they should not have dipped 2 or 3 notches below the c-class; it demeans/devalues the core model lines. It just plays off as a money grab. And front wheel drive, to boot!

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9 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

I challenge even the German's staunchest defender to show me where a based on the CT4's specs thus far.. what makes a comparable 2020 3Series (the leader) a better car to justify a price jump.. other than marketing and longevity in the market place. 

 

The CT5 is the 3-series competitor by price.  I think that is the better comparison.  The 3-series advantage is interior (although I think it is the worst of the German 3) and the 3-series turbo 4 puts out more power, the turbo inline 6 puts out more power than the CT5-V, plus that the inline 6 smoothness compared to V6.

If you want to compare CT4 to 3-series, huge interior and power gaps there.  CT4 vs A-class, may be a good comparison, CT4 has RWD benefit, A-class/CLA can bring more power, would probably be a good track comparison.   CT4 might have more room, I don't know how the interior specs are of the 2, A-class has better infotainment, GM is a bit behind the times on infotainment systems.

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2 hours ago, dfelt said:

Agree that GM should have continued to make and branch out with the Supercharged and Turbo charged SS engines.

No, I do not see it as trolling but stating the obvious that @smk4565 continues to ignore. MB is no longer and has not been for the last couple of Decades a Luxury only auto company.

With the amount of Taxis they produce and sell on the E platform which is all hard plastic city to the FWD A-Class. MB which was originally seen only as a luxury auto company has changed to be a global cheap to ubber luxury auto company and as such being compared to Toyota, Chevrolet, Hyundia, etc. is to be expected and warranted.

Mercedes is self described as a premium car brand.  Which is what they are, I think it is fantastic that they make the A-class starting at $32,500, even with options those are selling under $40k.  And to make Mercedes-Benz build quality, technology and safety available to more people is a great thing.  

The #1 type of car accident is rear end collision and over 90% of car accidents are human error.  Every Mercedes has standard automatic braking and standard attention assist.  Tesla, Volvo and Mercedes are the only 3 car companies that have automatic braking standard in even 50% of their cars and Mercedes is at 100%.   

The more sales they can take from Chevy, Toyota, Hyundai or whoever the better it is for those buyers who will avoid accidents, have lower insurance premiums, better driving records, and be safer in a crash if one does occur. 

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I know.

They built a brand we engine.. with a considerable amount less output. 

Yep, could have hooked that up to a 48 volt electric system with an electric compressor feeding the turbo for more power.  

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2 hours ago, riviera74 said:

I find it strange that we are debating whether Mercedes Benz is a luxury nameplate or not.  The whole luxury perception started in the 1970s when Mercedes Benz were exporting their cars into the USA in large numbers.  In Germany, Mercedes Benz is more like Chevrolet rather than Cadillac.  MB went with the luxury card because it meant higher profits from higher prices period, and that has carried them for the better part of 50 years.

Now, why anyone would buy a Mercedes that is NOT a C-Class or an E-Class or an S-Class CAR is beyond me.  The CUVs are another story.

Yes they started the big invasion in the 70s in the USA, they were a luxury car since 1886 in Europe, because having a car was a luxury, and they made some of the most expensive cars in the world in the 1930s.  

While I wouldn't want an A-class, I like rear drive and a bigger motor, plenty fo people are happy with a 200 hp front drive car.  Pretty sure about 50,000 people last month bought a Toyota Rav4 with such a powertrain.    And look at the top 10 selling cars in the USA, 3 full size trucks Rav4, Camry, Corolla, Accord, Civic, CR-V Altima off the top of my head.  7 of those are front driver rocking 200ish hp.  Given that the A-class has the most popular drivetrain in the USA, and Mercedes-Benz safety as outlined in my previous post, the question really is why wouldn't people buy an A-class?

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40 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Why not?? Does MB only have a single model?

Upper end vehicles are terrible values because they cost the owner far more in depreciation (as measured in dollars) than others, yet they don't DO anything different than others. If you want to flush $85,000 down the drain in 3 years, buy a top-end MB.
Ans yes; absolutely they should not have dipped 2 or 3 notches below the c-class; it demeans/devalues the core model lines. It just plays off as a money grab. And front wheel drive, to boot!

Got to blanket the all segments, they have a car for everyone.  If you want a coupe, convertible, wagon, SUV, they have it.  If you go to Cadillac and want a coupe, wagon or convertible, sorry; go to Lincoln in about 2 years and want anything other than an SUV and you'll be out of luck.  

A-class isn't even a money grab, they don't make much profit on those, the real money is made on S-classes and G-wagens. Really Mercedes is doing a public service by bringing Mercedes-Benz quality, technology and safety to more people.  I don't see anyone knocking Chevy for not just selling Corvettes and Silverados and scrapping any car under $30k.  They still have the Spark and Sonic and the Traxx, as they should because they aren't just targeting a small sliver of buyers.

Plus the C-class is not so entry level, that has become a pretty nice car and you can get a 500 hp V8 in it, I think there is room for a vehicle below it.  And next gen S-class will raise the bar, AMG GT73 was confirmed today, so S73 will follow, they won't use that powertrain in just one car.  They are pushing plenty upmarket too.

Edited by smk4565
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13 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Also.. its quite obvious what they did was create a baby CT6 in the CT4. It looks like a scaled down versions and carries its size change very well. Would be nice if the CT8 were coming it be a larger version of the CT5.. which in essence is a scaled down version of the Escala concept

2020-cadillac-ct4-sport-102-1568309524.j

I'm cool with the engine base too. They did a more balanced and proper take on the 2.0L Turbo where the HP may be down as much as 35HP (from a 2014 ATS), but the torque comes in way earlier and continues well into the upper RPMs.. all while giving the model a more fuel efficient option that was once filled by the weak 2.5L. I'm good with this.. because ONCE AGAIN.. if one doesn't like the bottom engine.. they can opt for a more powerful one. CHOICES! LOL.. If Cadillac asked some.. they would only be offering the LT2 in their cars.

I would have liked to see this new engine be up on power and torque about 10%. The ct6 when it switched from the old 2.0 to the new one lost about a second in 0-60 time. So I think they still could have put 10% more power into it so it at least topped 250hp and it may come closer to matching the prior ats 0-60. Even if you have more powerful engine options there is always going to be that buyer that can only afford the base engine. And if the base engine is too slow particularly compared to the competition, then the car will sit on lots unsold.  That does no one at GM any good.  

thats the picture I like BTW

even with caddies more attractive pricing they need to actually work on super attractive leases to offset the typical cheap bmw leases. That is where sales are made in bread and butter luxury segments. 

Edited by regfootball
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7 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Why would anyone settle for the 2.0T in a CT6 when you can get a 3.0TT or a 3.6 v6 instead?  Other than that, get any CT6 you want, if you can afford it.

I think the 2.0 has a role in the CT5 for someone who wants the larger interior but doesn’t want to spend over a certain amount. So that CT5 with the 2.0 has to cost more than the ct4 with the 2.0 but that difference amount has to reflect the value of the larger interior.  It may be a ‘cheap’ go to work car for some mid-high level manager corporate type person whose spouse or partner drives the X5 or whatever.

 

in the ct6 the 2.0 has no use. And I think it was already discontinued. The 2019 ct6 with the new 2.0 is a rare bird / collectible. A bit of a unicorn.  

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1 hour ago, regfootball said:

I would have liked to see this new engine be up on power and torque about 10%. The ct6 when it switched from the old 2.0 to the new one lost about a second in 0-60 time. So I think they still could have put 10% more power into it so it at least topped 250hp and it may come closer to matching the prior ats 0-60. Even if you have more powerful engine options there is always going to be that buyer that can only afford the base engine. And if the base engine is too slow particularly compared to the competition, then the car will sit on lots unsold.  That does no one at GM any good.  

thats the picture I like BTW

even with caddies more attractive pricing they need to actually work on super attractive leases to offset the typical cheap bmw leases. That is where sales are made in bread and butter luxury segments. 

First.. I think U are putting too much emphasis in 0-60 times.. second.. the TORQUE and TORQUE presentation from 1500 UP.. might surprise the hell out of U. Third I really don't think the difference in price is so steep that if one wanted a lil more power for bragging rights they couldn't pay the extra coin

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4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Got to blanket the all segments, they have a car for everyone.  If you want a coupe, convertible, wagon, SUV, they have it.  If you go to Cadillac and want a coupe, wagon or convertible, sorry; go to Lincoln in about 2 years and want anything other than an SUV and you'll be out of luck.  

A-class isn't even a money grab, they don't make much profit on those, the real money is made on S-classes and G-wagens. Really Mercedes is doing a public service by bringing Mercedes-Benz quality, technology and safety to more people.  I don't see anyone knocking Chevy for not just selling Corvettes and Silverados and scrapping any car under $30k.  They still have the Spark and Sonic and the Traxx, as they should because they aren't just targeting a small sliver of buyers.

Plus the C-class is not so entry level, that has become a pretty nice car and you can get a 500 hp V8 in it, I think there is room for a vehicle below it.  And next gen S-class will raise the bar, AMG GT73 was confirmed today, so S73 will follow, they won't use that powertrain in just one car.  They are pushing plenty upmarket too.

The A Class isn’t a money grab? Then why make and sell a car that doesn’t make real money? 

 

And Chevy isn’t luxury much less marketing themselves as “premium” and that Vette has been a staple of Chevy since the 50s when the price difference from top to bottom was negligible. You have been told more than once why the Vette being on a Chevy lot with cars like the Sonic and Spark is not a big deal at all and never has been. Meanwhile it’s Mercedes that has preached top of the line “best or nothing” marketing while releasing more and more cars with lower and lower stickers. Now do you honestly want us to believe that Daimler’s legendary quality was extended to a $32K FWD car? Seriously? 

 

Oh and the BMW interior is garbage. 

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I do believe the A-class has the same build quality of any Mercedes.  The A-class was rated the safest car tested in 2018 by Euro NCAP.   It may not have the materials or technology or engine of an s-class but the A-class is still well built, it is still super safe.

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11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I do believe the A-class has the same build quality of any Mercedes.  The A-class was rated the safest car tested in 2018 by Euro NCAP.   It may not have the materials or technology or engine of an s-class but the A-class is still well built, it is still super safe.

“I do believe” 

 

Thats the key part there because it is clearly a matter of fanboy opinion to assume that a company that has a history of building and selling high priced cars with “legendary German quality” (long term reliability studies show otherwise but I digress) passes down that high priced quality to a $30K car. Btw, there are dozens of mainstream cars with high safety ratings as well but that doesn’t mean that they are great quality. Quality is more than safety ratings. 

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1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

“I do believe” 

 

Thats the key part there because it is clearly a matter of fanboy opinion to assume that a company that has a history of building and selling high priced cars with “legendary German quality” (long term reliability studies show otherwise but I digress) passes down that high priced quality to a $30K car. Btw, there are dozens of mainstream cars with high safety ratings as well but that doesn’t mean that they are great quality. Quality is more than safety ratings. 

When GM, Toyota or VW builds a car the size of the A-class it costs $18,000 and yet the A-class costs $32,500.  They are putting money somewhere.  

This CT4 will also cost less than an A-class and is a size class bigger, so how is the build quality on it when even expensive Cadillacs don’t have good build quality?

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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

When GM, Toyota or VW builds a car the size of the A-class it costs $18,000 and yet the A-class costs $32,500.  They are putting money somewhere.  

This CT4 will also cost less than an A-class and is a size class bigger, so how is the build quality on it when even expensive Cadillacs don’t have good build quality?

 They are putting the money in their pockets.. that's it.. And who is suddenly saying that the Cadillacs don;t have build quality? Regardless.. GM, Toyota, VW can build cars for less and sell them for less because of total scale. Many of their cars share parts.. That Q7 and A5.. shares parts with the Tour.. or CC... that ES and LS.. shares some parts with a Camry or Avalon.. CT6 and XT5.. certainly share parts.. its the most documented thing in automotive history

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49 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

When GM, Toyota or VW builds a car the size of the A-class it costs $18,000 and yet the A-class costs $32,500.  They are putting money somewhere.  

This CT4 will also cost less than an A-class and is a size class bigger, so how is the build quality on it when even expensive Cadillacs don’t have good build quality?

That poor goal post. 

 

Who was saying Mercedes quality is all over the A Class? 

 

That Cadillac is built here thus a more reasonable price can be expected that is unrelated to quality (or not as related to quality). The A Class is made in Germany and the cost is naturally higher because of it being an import (tariffs and such). This would also apply in reverse for Cadillac if they were exporting the CT4 to Germany. It would be priced considerably higher. Now if you don’t think there is some major cost cutting in that A Class, you are just next level fanboy delusional. You want to bring up the quality of the Cadillac while ignoring the big reliability elephant in the room that is Mercedes, the knock yourself out. Just don’t expect everyone else to buy it. We will just sidestep your bring up a company like Toyota who’s $18K car will run circles around that Benz in terms of long term reliability. Maybe you should stop pulling $h! out of thin air when trying to defend Benz. 

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2 hours ago, balthazar said:

ATS is the same size as the a-class, 2019 coupe starts at $38,995.

The ATS is closer in size to the C-class than it is to the A-class, and the ATS is out of production.   Also the CT4 is actually larger than the C-class, CT4 is 3 inches longer.  CT5 is $2,000 cheaper than a C-class, CT4 I would assume is $10,000 cheaper than a C-class and that is how Cadillac should price it. 

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2 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

That poor goal post. 

 

Who was saying Mercedes quality is all over the A Class? 

 

That Cadillac is built here thus a more reasonable price can be expected that is unrelated to quality (or not as related to quality). The A Class is made in Germany and the cost is naturally higher because of it being an import (tariffs and such). This would also apply in reverse for Cadillac if they were exporting the CT4 to Germany. It would be priced considerably higher. Now if you don’t think there is some major cost cutting in that A Class, you are just next level fanboy delusional. You want to bring up the quality of the Cadillac while ignoring the big reliability elephant in the room that is Mercedes, the knock yourself out. Just don’t expect everyone else to buy it. We will just sidestep your bring up a company like Toyota who’s $18K car will run circles around that Benz in terms of long term reliability. Maybe you should stop pulling $h! out of thin air when trying to defend Benz. 

I haven't seen any complaints of build quality on the A-class, like the recalls we are seeing on the Explorer/Navigator, or seen complaints of panel gaps or creaks and rattles, etc.  I have sat in the A-class, interior seemed well put together from a quality standpoint.  It doesn't have the fancy materials of the higher Benzes but it isn't poorly made.

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17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I do believe the A-class has the same build quality of any Mercedes.  The A-class was rated the safest car tested in 2018 by Euro NCAP.   It may not have the materials or technology or engine of an s-class but the A-class is still well built, it is still super safe.

I would take that Euro NCAP testing with a Grain of salt. This from the same agencies that for years did not test properly to see if cheating software was being used in Diesel auto's, Acid rain that is destroying forests all across Europe and only got caught as the US market was questioning the results they got and decided to have 3rd party Universities look in to suspect results and BOOM, all blows up to billions of dollars of fines for them.

What else is MB hiding in these Toyota / Chevrolet equal FWD appliances that MB sells? 🙄🤔

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47 minutes ago, dfelt said:

 

What else is MB hiding in these Toyota / Chevrolet equal FWD appliances that MB sells? 🙄🤔

64.6% of Cadillac sales first half of 2019 were FWD.  And that number will rise since XT6 wasn't on sale then and ATS was, and ATS is now dead.  Cadillac is a 70% front drive brand and most of that rear drive is a Chevy Tahoe with luxury appointments.   Standard of the World I am sure.

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2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The ATS is closer in size to the C-class than it is to the A-class...

A-class sedan : 179”, ATS: 182.

c-class sedan is 187”.

23 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

64.6% of Cadillac sales first half of 2019 were FWD.

Incorrect- you have not included AWD in your numbers.

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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

64.6% of Cadillac sales first half of 2019 were FWD.  And that number will rise since XT6 wasn't on sale then and ATS was, and ATS is now dead.  Cadillac is a 70% front drive brand and most of that rear drive is a Chevy Tahoe with luxury appointments.   Standard of the World I am sure.

The ATS was replaced directly with the CT4 and the CTS was replaced directly with the CT5.  The XTS is dead soon, so their entire sedan lineup will be RWD.   No one cares about RWD in a crossover, if they did, the Stelvio would be flying off the lots, not the RX and XT5.  As much as I am "meh" about the XT6, they'll probably sell a good amount of them because again... no one cares about RWD in a crossover and Lincoln is currently botching the Aviator launch. 

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Exactly.  If the typical luxury crossover buyer wanted RWD as non-negotiable, then the original SRX would never have been switched from RWD AND BMW SAVs would be flying off of dealer lots.  Cadillac switched the SRX to FWD because the best selling luxury crossover was the Lexus RX (always FWD).  The modern Cadillac crossovers followed suit and stayed FWD with AWD as an available option.

The luxury market is simple: RWD sedans and FWD crossovers are the norm, not the exception.  AWD is generally available for a slight premium.  The CT4, especially if priced right below the C-Class and the 3-series and the A4, should do just fine, perhaps a little better than the ATS.  Does it really matter if 50 or 60% of Cadillac sales are FWD?  NO.  It matters if Cadillac serves its market and keep gaining market share on the Germans and Lexus.

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5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I haven't seen any complaints of build quality on the A-class, like the recalls we are seeing on the Explorer/Navigator, or seen complaints of panel gaps or creaks and rattles, etc.  I have sat in the A-class, interior seemed well put together from a quality standpoint.  It doesn't have the fancy materials of the higher Benzes but it isn't poorly made.

It’s because you don’t look for problems with Mercedes. One google search pulled up plenty for a car that’s barely been on the market a year here. And bringing up Ford? Again, what does that have to do with anything said here? No one said a thing about them. Besides, of course there will be more news for Ford here than benz because Ford sells in a much higher volume here thus increasing the frequency of recalls in its home country. It’s not rocket science but since you wanted to move the goal posts yet again, I figured I’d give you the simple answer for that. 

 

A Class Recall

https://www.automotive-fleet.com/331754/mercedes-recalls-a-class-for-brake-pedal

 

C Class recall (where they can’t properly hook up a battery terminal for some reason)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnet.com/google-amp/news/mercedes-benz-battery-recall/

 

Here’s eight more recalls for the C Class

https://www.kbb.com/ownership/mercedes-benz/c-class/2018/

 

Now If you still want to act like recalls are the be all end all to car quality, please go there. I have plenty more Mercedes recalls where those came from  

 

 

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The ATS was replaced directly with the CT4 and the CTS was replaced directly with the CT5.  The XTS is dead soon, so their entire sedan lineup will be RWD.   No one cares about RWD in a crossover, if they did, the Stelvio would be flying off the lots, not the RX and XT5.  As much as I am "meh" about the XT6, they'll probably sell a good amount of them because again... no one cares about RWD in a crossover and Lincoln is currently botching the Aviator launch. 

He sidesteps the high number of FWD Mercedes sold today but that’s nothing new there. 

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4 hours ago, balthazar said:

A-class sedan : 179”, ATS: 182.

c-class sedan is 187”.

Incorrect- you have not included AWD in your numbers.

The CT4 is 187 inches long, a C63 is 187 inches long because the hood is longer to accommodate the V8.  A C300/C43 is 184.5 inches long.

A-class is all wheel drive too.

3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The ATS was replaced directly with the CT4 and the CTS was replaced directly with the CT5.  The XTS is dead soon, so their entire sedan lineup will be RWD.   No one cares about RWD in a crossover, if they did, the Stelvio would be flying off the lots, not the RX and XT5.  As much as I am "meh" about the XT6, they'll probably sell a good amount of them because again... no one cares about RWD in a crossover and Lincoln is currently botching the Aviator launch. 

The X3 and GLC outsell the XT5 now.  

The ES350 outsells all Cadillac sedans combined, does that mean Cadillac should kill all rear drive product because people want front wheel drive?  Or maybe people just want a Lexus ES because it has been on the market for 25 years and they keep trading in for another.

I question how long the CT4 will last, my guess it is a one and done product like so many other GM sedans of the past 20 years because I just don’t think they will find enough volume.  I think the CT5 will do better since it is bigger.

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1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

Exactly.  If the typical luxury crossover buyer wanted RWD as non-negotiable, then the original SRX would never have been switched from RWD AND BMW SAVs would be flying off of dealer lots.  Cadillac switched the SRX to FWD because the best selling luxury crossover was the Lexus RX (always FWD).  The modern Cadillac crossovers followed suit and stayed FWD with AWD as an available option.

The luxury market is simple: RWD sedans and FWD crossovers are the norm, not the exception.  AWD is generally available for a slight premium.  The CT4, especially if priced right below the C-Class and the 3-series and the A4, should do just fine, perhaps a little better than the ATS.  Does it really matter if 50 or 60% of Cadillac sales are FWD?  NO.  It matters if Cadillac serves its market and keep gaining market share on the Germans and Lexus.

BMW is the #1 selling luxury car in the USA in 2019 and Mercedes is #2.  And they command higher prices than any of their competitors.

Lexus hasn’t been the top selling luxury brand in the USA in about 20 years and they are surviving on 2 products right now.   Cadillac has lost crazy market share in the past 20 years, and not just here they are way behind in China and non-existent in Europe.  

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1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

 

 

He sidesteps the high number of FWD Mercedes sold today but that’s nothing new there. 

16.4% of Mercedes sales in 2019 are FWD based compared to 64.6% at Cadillac.  If Mercedes has a high number then what is Cadillac? 

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It's a big fat "who cares?!" 

I personally think the XT5 is performing poorly in sales for two reasons.  1. they made it ugly. 2. GM (again) got greedy with the option prices.  The old SRX did perfectly fine in sales because it was attractive. 

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13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

16.4% of Mercedes sales in 2019 are FWD based compared to 64.6% at Cadillac.  If Mercedes has a high number then what is Cadillac? 

See Drew’s comment and try so actual logic next time instead of putting that goal post on wheels and moving it all about. 

 

Couldn’t help but notice that you have no counter argument for the quality claim after I posted the many recalls on various Mercedes models. 

 

About that percentage you posted, Benz was late to the FWD party but has introduced more FWD models in the last four years than Cadillac. Clearly they are trying to grab that “poor mans” market with cheaper FWD models but somehow you think it will translate to continued high quality on their part and that it’s no big deal if Benz goes cheap. It only matter when Cadillac does it. Thats the fanboy logic for you. 

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23 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I haven't seen any complaints of build quality on the A-class, like the recalls we are seeing on the Explorer/Navigator, or seen complaints of panel gaps or creaks and rattles, etc.  I have sat in the A-class, interior seemed well put together from a quality standpoint.  It doesn't have the fancy materials of the higher Benzes but it isn't poorly made.

Whether the A Class has more problems or not wasn’t the point. There has been a recall on their brake pedals. SMK is the one who asserted that Ford had problems, which no one here would deny but this wasn’t about Ford. It was about this fanboy assumption of Mercedes quality being so great when the recalls I posted for cars such as the C Class would seem suggest otherwise. 

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27 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

So we are to believe the A Class will be high quality but the next model up from it, the C Class, didn’t get tat memo. 

 

https://carbuzz.com/news/can-you-guess-which-car-has-the-highest-recall-rate-in-america

WOW, some of the info is surprising but clearly quality is not in the BEST Category of their Best or Nothing as it clearly is in the Nothing Category!

QUOTE:

Surprisingly, the study found that the car with the highest recall rate in America is the Mercedes C-Class. According to the study, the luxury car "has been recalled for a host of safety issues, from several different recall campaigns involving airbags to multiple campaigns involving failure in the steering column." Another campaign required the C-Class to be recalled because the sunroof had been improperly bonded to the frame, which meant there was a risk it could fall on passengers.

Like the fact that they also related the recall list which by the way has Mercedes-Benz and BMW claiming the top spots for recalls followed by the GMC Sierra and of course everyone else both domestic, Asian and the rest of the German broads.

What I found interesting in the read is that the Toyota 4Runner has such high reliability from Consumer Reports but is for it's class at the top of the recall list.

How does Recalls and Reliability go.................

Also very 😆 funny that at least for me, both Toyota and MB have ads on the story page to try and sell you said auto's. :roflmao:

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7 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Couldn’t help but notice that you have no counter argument for the quality claim after I posted the many recalls on various Mercedes models. 

 

About that percentage you posted, Benz was late to the FWD party but has introduced more FWD models in the last four years than Cadillac. Clearly they are trying to grab that “poor mans” market with cheaper FWD models but somehow you think it will translate to continued high quality on their part and that it’s no big deal if Benz goes cheap. It only matter when Cadillac does it. Thats the fanboy logic for you. 

Every auto maker has recalls, that isn't an indication of quality or long term reliability, especially when the recall can be for different things.

Talk about moving goal post, "Benz has released more FWD models in the past 4 years than Cadillac"  Not sure what that has to do with anything.  Although the only FWB Benz released in the past 4 years was the A-class, and Cadillac introduced XT4 and XT6 this year.  If you want to go back to 2012 when the CLA/GLA came out, the XTS and XT5 have been released since then.  Not that any of that really matters.

I don't see how selling the A-class effects any other car in the line up.  Chevrolet makes the Spark and Sonic, it has zero effect on the Corvette. 

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3 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

So we are to believe the A Class will be high quality but the next model up from it, the C Class, didn’t get tat memo. 

 

https://carbuzz.com/news/can-you-guess-which-car-has-the-highest-recall-rate-in-america

Funny how the C-class outsells all Cadillac sedans combined, you'd think if quality was so bad people wouldn't buy it.  And as I said recalls are are not directly related to build quality.   CT5 is priced BELOW the C-class, Cadillac knew their only hope to compete with a C-class was to re-work a CTS and take $10k off the price, CT4 they know would do worse against the C-class than the ATS did.  I still think CT4 is a one generation car, and Cadillac will move to a 1 sedan lineup around 2025, unless they put an EV sedan out.

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17 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Every auto maker has recalls, that isn't an indication of quality or long term reliability, especially when the recall can be for different things.

Talk about moving goal post, "Benz has released more FWD models in the past 4 years than Cadillac"  Not sure what that has to do with anything.  Although the only FWB Benz released in the past 4 years was the A-class, and Cadillac introduced XT4 and XT6 this year.  If you want to go back to 2012 when the CLA/GLA came out, the XTS and XT5 have been released since then.  Not that any of that really matters.

I don't see how selling the A-class effects any other car in the line up.  Chevrolet makes the Spark and Sonic, it has zero effect on the Corvette. 

There was no goalpost moving. You criticized Cadillac for the percentage of FWD models sold while ignoring the increase in FWD sales for Mercedes over the last four years, showing more reliance on those FWD models to boost sales. 

 

And again, the A Class itself was not point in my talk about reliability and you know that. Go back and read it more carefully before assuming that’s what I’m talking about. I am talking about this automatic pass you give for one car (regarding quality) while ignoring the fact that even their higher priced cars had many quality issues. If their next up the food chain car (C Class) is getting hammered in that regard, then why should anyone assume that the next one down the food chain is any better. See the connection yet?

10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Funny how the C-class outsells all Cadillac sedans combined, you'd think if quality was so bad people wouldn't buy it.  And as I said recalls are are not directly related to build quality.   CT5 is priced BELOW the C-class, Cadillac knew their only hope to compete with a C-class was to re-work a CTS and take $10k off the price, CT4 they know would do worse against the C-class than the ATS did.  I still think CT4 is a one generation car, and Cadillac will move to a 1 sedan lineup around 2025, unless they put an EV sedan out.

Now that’s a goal post move. Based on your logic, would you say that the Jeep Wrangler is quality or has been quality over the last three decades even though is had always sold well? How about the Escalade, which routinely beats the Mercedes competition? 

 

You say that recalls have no bearing on quality yet used that very argument against Ford. So do recalls only matter when we are talking about the competition? 

 

And BS on the one model nonsense because you have been saying that for years (before the release of the CT4 and CT5) and even thought they were cutting down to one or maybe two models not even two years ago. How’d that work out?

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1 minute ago, surreal1272 said:

There was no goalpost moving. You criticized Cadillac for the percentage of FWD models sold while ignoring the increase in FWD sales for Mercedes over the last four years, showing more reliance on those FWD models to boost sales. 

 

And again, the A Class itself was not point in my talk about reliability and you know that. Go back and read it more carefully before assuming that’s what I’m talking about. I am talking about this automatic pass you give for one car (regarding quality) while ignoring the fact that even their higher priced cars had many quality issues. If their next up the food chain car (C Class) is getting hammered in that regard, then why should anyone assume that the next one down the food chain is any better. See the connection yet?

So Cadillac who made 1 FWD car in their 2009 lineup, and now has 4 (until XTS is officially dead) and introduced the front drive ELR, forgot about that disaster is not relying on FWD for sales?   Cadillac's 2 best sellers are front drive, XT6 will probably outsell Escalade and for sure will outsell CT4 and CT5.  

And the A-class is in a segment that Cadillac doesn't even compete in, by size class anyway, we don't know how CT4 is priced yet.  As I have said before, transverse mounted 4-cylinder engine vehicles are by far the most popular set up, it is what people are used to.  Smart move by Mercedes to offer a product to pull people into their brand with something they are familiar with. Not everyone wants a 500-600 hp V8 rear drive car, I would like that, but most of the market wants horsepower in the 200s and gas mileage in the 30s.  Mercedes is building what people want, and they haven't killed any rear drive lines and replaced it with front drive.

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