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  • William Maley
    William Maley

    General Motors Announces Job Cuts and Plant Shutdowns in North America

      Five factories are on the chopping block


    This morning, General Motors announced an overhaul of its operations in 2019 which will involve cutting more than 10,000 workers and possibly closing five plants by the end of the year. GM said the cuts should boost cash flow by six billion by the end of 2020.

    “The actions we are taking today continue our transformation to be highly agile, resilient and profitable, while giving us the flexibility to invest in the future. We recognize the need to stay in front of changing market conditions and customer preferences to position our company for long-term success,” said GM Chairman and CEO Mary Barra in a statement.

    The plants up for possible closure are,

    • Detroit-Hamtramck Assembly in Michigan - Home to Buick LaCrosse, Cadillac CT6, Chevrolet Impala, and Chevrolet Volt.
    • Lordstown Assembly in Ohio - Home to Chevrolet Cruze.
    • Oshawa Assembly in Ontario, Canada - Home to Cadillac XTS, Chevrolet Impala, and finishing production of last-generation Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra
    • Baltimore Operations in Maryland (Propulsion)
    • Warren Transmission Operations in Michigan

    Hints of this announcement came out last night when reports from CTV and The Globe and Mail in Canada reported the closure of Oshawa.

    The plant closures also mean a number of models being dropped - including the LaCrosse, CT6, Impala, and Volt. The Cruze will be built in Mexico for other markets.

    It was expected GM was going to make some changes to address the underutilization of its plants. Dara from the Center for Automotive Research says GM represents 1 million of the 3.2 million units of underutilized capacity in the U.S. through October.

    This announcement comes on the eve of negotiations with the UAW next year and Unifor in 2020. The UAW has announced that it will challenge GM's decision "through every legal, contractual and collective bargaining avenue open to our membership."

    The announcement has brought pushback from politicians. Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau expressed "deep disappointment" with the decision. U.S. Senator Rob Portman, a Republican from Ohio express frustration with the possible shutdown of Lordstown.

    One group not disappointed with the news is Wall Street. GM stock rose 6.18 percent to $38.00 per share at the time of this writing.

    Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required), Bloomberg, Reuters, Twitter, General Motors


    General Motors Accelerates Transformation

    • Transforming the global enterprise to advance the company’s vision of Zero Crashes, Zero Emissions, Zero Congestion
    • Taking cost actions and optimizing capital expenditures to drive annual run-rate cash savings of approximately $6 billion by year-end 2020

    DETROIT – General Motors (NYSE: GM) will accelerate its transformation for the future, building on the comprehensive strategy it laid out in 2015 to strengthen its core business, capitalize on the future of personal mobility and drive significant cost efficiencies.

    Today, GM is continuing to take proactive steps to improve overall business performance including the reorganization of its global product development staffs, the realignment of its manufacturing capacity and a reduction of salaried workforce. These actions are expected to increase annual adjusted automotive free cash flow by $6 billion by year-end 2020 on a run-rate basis.

    “The actions we are taking today continue our transformation to be highly agile, resilient and profitable, while giving us the flexibility to invest in the future,” said GM Chairman and CEO Mary Barra. “We recognize the need to stay in front of changing market conditions and customer preferences to position our company for long-term success.”

    Contributing to the cash savings of approximately $6 billion are cost reductions of $4.5 billion and a lower capital expenditure annual run rate of almost $1.5 billion. The actions include:

    • Transforming product development – GM is evolving its global product development workforce and processes to drive world-class levels of engineering in advanced technologies, and to improve quality and speed to market. Resources allocated to electric and autonomous vehicle programs will double in the next two years. Additional actions include:
      • Increasing high-quality component sharing across the portfolio, especially those not visible and perceptible to customers.
      • Expanding the use of virtual tools to lower development time and costs.
      • Integrating its vehicle and propulsion engineering teams.
      • Compressing its global product development campuses.
    • Optimizing product portfolio – GM has recently invested in newer, highly efficient vehicle architectures, especially in trucks, crossovers and SUVs. GM now intends to prioritize future vehicle investments in its next-generation battery-electric architectures. As the current vehicle portfolio is optimized, it is expected that more than 75 percent of GM’s global sales volume will come from five vehicle architectures by early next decade.
    • Increasing capacity utilization – In the past four years, GM has refocused capital and resources to support the growth of its crossovers, SUVs and trucks, adding shifts and investing $6.6 billion in U.S. plants that have created or maintained 17,600 jobs. With changing customer preferences in the U.S. and in response to market-related volume declines in cars, future products will be allocated to fewer plants next year.
      • Assembly plants that will be unallocated in 2019 include:
        • Oshawa Assembly in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada.
        • Detroit-Hamtramck Assembly in Detroit.
        • Lordstown Assembly in Warren, Ohio.
      • Propulsion plants that will be unallocated in 2019 include:
        • Baltimore Operations in White Marsh, Maryland.
        • Warren Transmission Operations in Warren, Michigan.

    In addition to the previously announced closure of the assembly plant in Gunsan, Korea, GM will cease the operations of two additional plants outside North America by the end of 2019.

    These manufacturing actions are expected to significantly increase capacity utilization. To further enhance business performance, GM will continue working to improve other manufacturing costs, productivity and the competitiveness of wages and benefits.

    • Staffing transformation – The company is transforming its global workforce to ensure it has the right skill sets for today and the future, while driving efficiencies through the utilization of best-in-class tools. Actions are being taken to reduce salaried and salaried contract staff by 15 percent, which includes 25 percent fewer executives to streamline decision making.

    Barra added, “These actions will increase the long-term profit and cash generation potential of the company and improve resilience through the cycle.”

    GM expects to fund the restructuring costs through a new credit facility that will further improve the company’s strong liquidity position and enhance its financial flexibility.

    GM expects to record pre-tax charges of $3.0 billion to $3.8 billion related to these actions, including up to $1.8 billion of non-cash accelerated asset write-downs and pension charges, and up to $2.0 billion of employee-related and other cash-based expenses. The majority of these charges will be considered special for EBIT-adjusted, EPS diluted-adjusted and adjusted automotive free cash flow purposes. The majority of these charges will be incurred in the fourth quarter of 2018 and first quarter of 2019, with some additional costs incurred through the remainder of 2019. 

    Edited by William Maley

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    Totally makes sense to close underutilized plants. The golden age of Industrialization are over for the US and the growth will be in China for GM. Efficient Agile manufacturing will come with the new skateboard platform GM will probably use for BOLT 2.0 and all other EV / Hybrid auto's. My gut says this is only the beginning for all automakers. Expect this same kind of announcement to become common over the next 18 months as auto companies realign production for the new global market change to EV/Hybrid auto's.

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    I was a little surprised about the CT6 but then it hasn't been selling much.  Where will the CT4/5 be built?

     

     

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    3 minutes ago, frogger said:

    I was a little surprised about the CT6 but then it hasn't been selling much.  Where will the CT4/5 be built?

    I am actually not surprised by the CT6 being discontinued. The car is great for a car, but really does not bring anything new or revolutionary to the car market that is dwindling as most move to CUV / SUV type auto's or Crew Cab pickups to support family hauling and stuff hauling.

    My gut is telling me we will see some very big surprises out of GM with their EV auto launches.

    Heart and soul of auto's in the future will be Hybrids and pure EVs with speed. :metal:

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    7 minutes ago, frogger said:

    I was a little surprised about the CT6 but then it hasn't been selling much.  Where will the CT4/5 be built?

     

    Don't know at the moment, my guess would have been Detroit-Hamtramck. But now I wonder if Lansing could do it.

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    First off, I feel bad for the folks that are losing their jobs.   These big corporations lobbied for and got the tax cuts under the guise of "we'll bring the jobs and money back to the US" but we all knew that wasn't going to happen. 

    As far as the products go, I would be surprised for the Volt to be totally killed, I could see the Volt becoming a pure EV sedan, something bigger than the Bolt and maybe not as big as a Malibu.  I think the CT6 could move production to another plant, possibly even China and import.  I don't think they will totally kill that product.

    The LaCrosse, Impala, XTS, Cruze I think are all dead.  Buick can get by with 1 sedan and they'll probably just do a Malibu clone to replace the current Regal/LaCrosse, maybe they recycle one of those name plates.

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    Just now, Suaviloquent said:

    Damn. And they’re not even allocating better selling products to those plants.

    Yet they are underutilized plants that are probably costing more money than they make and with a JIT / Agile manufacturing system, you can do more with less plants. This makes sense.

    7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    First off, I feel bad for the folks that are losing their jobs.   These big corporations lobbied for and got the tax cuts under the guise of "we'll bring the jobs and money back to the US" but we all knew that wasn't going to happen. 

    As far as the products go, I would be surprised for the Volt to be totally killed, I could see the Volt becoming a pure EV sedan, something bigger than the Bolt and maybe not as big as a Malibu.  I think the CT6 could move production to another plant, possibly even China and import.  I don't think they will totally kill that product.

    The LaCrosse, Impala, XTS, Cruze I think are all dead.  Buick can get by with 1 sedan and they'll probably just do a Malibu clone to replace the current Regal/LaCrosse, maybe they recycle one of those name plates.

    I totally agree with you in regards to the workers, but the North America market is not going to grow like China will and sedans are going to dwindle, not die, but no need for the large diverse selection out there based on how people live now. I expect the German brands to reduce car types too in the near future.

    LaCrosse, Impala, XTS and Cruze I agree will probably die. Volt is also understandable as if your over 5'8" tall it is really cramped in the front and especially the back. The VOLT power train will live on in a CUV replacement is my guess. I do think your statement of a Malibu Hybrid Volt Power train makes sense as does a rebadge for Buick of the same auto.

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    I read this slightly different.. as I though the plan all along was to consolidate plants.. It makes zero sense to kill the Cruze, Volt, and CT6.. and still continue making the Spark and Sonic.. unless what is going on is these products are simply being moved. Product is shifting.. these non-enthusiastic drivers LOVE CUVs.. hence Ford's exodus from the car market.. but we have a CT3 and CT5 on the way.. the death of the XTS means without the CT6 after 2020... what's going to happen? MY guess.. on that note would be that someone got the message that if U are going to directly compete with the other lux brands.. it makes no sense to have a CT3, CT5, CT6.. and then intro a CT7. Could it be that the CT6, a vehicle that was misnamed in the first place.. will simply morph into a CT7 ?

    I'm an optimist tho.. something that is not looked upon in high regard when it comes to GM

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    also...

    Quote

    It was expected GM was going to make some changes to address the underutilization of its plants. Dara from the Center for Automotive Research says GM represents 1 million of the 3.2 million units of underutilized capacity in the U.S. through October.

    This announcement comes on the eve of negotiations with the UAW next year and Unifor in 2020. 

    Why is that part.. particularly the bolded being ignored also? Negotiations and "carrot/stick" moves have to be put in place. Again.. I understand consolidation of underutilized plants.. and even merging a few vehicles. Personally I have never understood why the Spark and Sonic existed together.. In fact.. many times I went on record here saying that the TRAX should have simply been a TALL Sonic.. kill the Spark. The Volt too.. I could never understand why it simply wasn't called the CRUZE HYBRID.. sales would have been the same or better.. and the idea that having a separate vehicle similar to Toyota's Prius was unnecessary for GM.. they aren't using the VOLT name to make themselves seem more green.. so why bother? I see billion of marketing dollars going to the Silverado and its spawn.. and just thousands of dollars going to the Volt and Bolt.

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    I could see three of those five plants shutting down sooner than later.  Does GM need Baltimore AND Warren?  In theory, GM could simply consolidate those two into one facility.  As for the other three, two can be shut down with no ill effects on GM's bottom line.  Sad as it is, This is not 1980 or even 2005.  Consolidation and efficiency are the orders of the day.  Wall Street Demands it and Commands it.  All other will follow.

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    20 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    I could see three of those five plants shutting down sooner than later.  Does GM need Baltimore AND Warren?  In theory, GM could simply consolidate those two into one facility.  As for the other three, two can be shut down with no ill effects on GM's bottom line.  Sad as it is, This is not 1980 or even 2005.  Consolidation and efficiency are the orders of the day.  Wall Street Demands it and Commands it.  All other will follow.

    Lordstown is hugely under utilized and has been for decades. 

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    They put a load of money into Detroit-Hamtramck to make it one of the most advanced plants in North America.  I'm surprised they're closing it instead of moving other product there.   I get their reasoning for cutting the vehicles they're cutting, but why not build the inevitable CUVs/SUVs in that plant?

    10 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    Wasn't the Camaro built at Oshawa also?  

     

    7 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Was, according to info on the web it was moved in 2012 to Lansing Grand River assembly plant.

    It moved once Camaro moved to a platform shared with Cadillac..... in 2015, not 2012.

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    5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    They put a load of money into Detroit-Hamtramck to make it one of the most advanced plants in North America.  I'm surprised they're closing it instead of moving other product there.   I get their reasoning for cutting the vehicles they're cutting, but why not build the inevitable CUVs/SUVs in that plant?

     

    Because that would make too much sense. This is GM we are talking about.

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    and again.. the article reads... "The plants up for possible closure are"

    now according to Webster's... being what may be conceived, be done, or occur according to nature, custom, or manners

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    6 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

    and again.. the article reads... "The plants up for possible closure are"

    now according to Webster's... being what may be conceived, be done, or occur according to nature, custom, or manners

    What isn't changed is the vehicles that would be canceled.  Everything on the list is among GM's slowest retail sellers.  If they cancel the Cruze... there is no reason to keep Lordstown.   I am surprised but not really that the CT6 is on the cut list. The XTS we've known about for a while.... if Impala and XTS go, then there is no business case for Lacrosse.

    From there it snowballs.  No Cruze = No Volt. 

    No Volt + No Impala + No Lacrosse = CT6 alone at Hamtramck, which just doesn't add up.

    My guess is that if ANY of these vehicles survive, it will be the CT6 because it is the newest, but they'll build it in China and ship it over. 

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    42 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    After simmering on this a bit more.... this is going to have serious political implications in 2020.  In the last 14 presidential elections, Ohio has gone with the ultimate winner in the election.  Trump won the county where Lordstown sits by 6,000 votes.  One would think it could also have a significant impact on the mood of the constituents of Michigan in 2 years time.   It is entirely possible that the next presidential election was just decided today. 

    One can hope.

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    2 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

    I read this slightly different.. as I though the plan all along was to consolidate plants.. It makes zero sense to kill the Cruze, Volt, and CT6.. and still continue making the Spark and Sonic.. unless what is going on is these products are simply being moved. Product is shifting.. these non-enthusiastic drivers LOVE CUVs.. hence Ford's exodus from the car market.. but we have a CT3 and CT5 on the way.. the death of the XTS means without the CT6 after 2020... what's going to happen? MY guess.. on that note would be that someone got the message that if U are going to directly compete with the other lux brands.. it makes no sense to have a CT3, CT5, CT6.. and then intro a CT7. Could it be that the CT6, a vehicle that was misnamed in the first place.. will simply morph into a CT7 ?

    I'm an optimist tho.. something that is not looked upon in high regard when it comes to GM

    Ford and FCA dropped sedans mostly, I could see Chevy dropping the Cruze and just having an Asian built Sonic imported (depending on tariffs) for a cheap car and the Malibu being their only gas sedan.  If the Volt is an EV sedan you sort of have enough sedans.  

    I think future GM is going to pick and choose where they compete and not go head on with luxury brands.  They may but Cadillac to 2 sedans, but I would be surprised if they didn't have a 3rd sedan.   We probably have to see how big the CT5 is, if it is larger than the CTS, and the CT4 is larger than a ATS, then you don't need a CT6 or CT7.  Anything outside of the S-class has horrible volume in that segment, the A8 exists because of China and the 7-series exists because of Europe.

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    The CT6 and the Volt (maybe) are the only two that deserve saving.  The rest can rest in peace, given the massive shift to SUVs and crossovers. 

    As for the Volt and Bolt, when is GM going to put out its replacement platform for those vehicles?  Moreover, where is the EV version of an Equinox/Terrain/Envision?

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    i don't see the Cruze going away.  GM needs it for CAFE.  

    Regarding the CT6, no way they kill that car after just announcing the v8 for it.  Plus, it delivers what real Cadillac fans want.  Size.  My bet is they move it to another plant, China, or change it to CT7 as suggested.  If Cadillac fully kills that car, then fuck them.  They deserve what they have coming to them.  Will anyone give two shits about Cadillac if they don't offer a full sized sedan?  (but will probably still have a CT3 or CT4).

    I saw an interior spy photo of the CT5 interior on Burlapp cars.  That won't take any business away from the Germans for interior design and quality.  It's a reconfigured XT4 interior.

    The other point about this being a pre-emptive strike in the labor war, that makes sense to me also.

    Sorry to throw this out there, but post 2009, Barra led GM is becoming a joke.  Spend all the $$$ on chasing autonomous cars and complying with CAFE.  Mistakes with Camaro.  No impactful EV releases that would challenge Tesla.  Looking to move all vehicle assembly out of the US, seemingly.  No performance vehicles for the average Joe, that aren't a pony car.

     

     

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    8 minutes ago, regfootball said:

    i don't see the Cruze going away.  GM needs it for CAFE.  

    Regarding the CT6, no way they kill that car after just announcing the v8 for it.  Plus, it delivers what real Cadillac fans want.  Size.  My bet is they move it to another plant, China, or change it to CT7 as suggested.  If Cadillac fully kills that car, then fuck them.  They deserve what they have coming to them.  Will anyone give two shits about Cadillac if they don't offer a full sized sedan?  (but will probably still have a CT3 or CT4).

    I saw an interior spy photo of the CT5 interior on Burlapp cars.  That won't take any business away from the Germans for interior design and quality.  It's a reconfigured XT4 interior.

    The other point about this being a pre-emptive strike in the labor war, that makes sense to me also.

    Sorry to throw this out there, but post 2009, Barra led GM is becoming a joke.  Spend all the $$$ on chasing autonomous cars and complying with CAFE.  Mistakes with Camaro.  No impactful EV releases that would challenge Tesla.  Looking to move all vehicle assembly out of the US, seemingly.  No performance vehicles for the average Joe, that aren't a pony car.

    Yet Cadillac just posted this on Instagram and the battle over is it alive or dead or just plugin is going on.

    CT6 Love does exist

     

     The more I think on this is that the CT6 production will move to Lansing where you will have the CT3, CT5, CT6 or 7 or whatever they decide to relabel it along with the Camaro built there especially since you have the TT V8 announced and supposedly in or going into production?

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    15 minutes ago, regfootball said:

    i don't see the Cruze going away.  GM needs it for CAFE.  

    Regarding the CT6, no way they kill that car after just announcing the v8 for it.  Plus, it delivers what real Cadillac fans want.  Size.  My bet is they move it to another plant, China, or change it to CT7 as suggested.  If Cadillac fully kills that car, then fuck them.  They deserve what they have coming to them.  Will anyone give two shits about Cadillac if they don't offer a full sized sedan?  (but will probably still have a CT3 or CT4).

    I saw an interior spy photo of the CT5 interior on Burlapp cars.  That won't take any business away from the Germans for interior design and quality.  It's a reconfigured XT4 interior.

    The other point about this being a pre-emptive strike in the labor war, that makes sense to me also.

    Sorry to throw this out there, but post 2009, Barra led GM is becoming a joke.  Spend all the $$$ on chasing autonomous cars and complying with CAFE.  Mistakes with Camaro.  No impactful EV releases that would challenge Tesla.  Looking to move all vehicle assembly out of the US, seemingly.  No performance vehicles for the average Joe, that aren't a pony car.

     

     

    There aren't performance vehicles for the average joe.  The Charger Hellcat costs as much as an ATS-V. A Grand Cherokee Trackhawk is in CTS-V territory... or might as well be as much as it matters to the Average Joe.  It doesn't matter that FCA is using their Average Joe brand names, they still cost as much as a Cadillac performance vehicle. 

    And Joe can barely handle an Impala V6 at full throttle. 

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    8 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    There aren't performance vehicles for the average joe.  The Charger Hellcat costs as much as an ATS-V. A Grand Cherokee Trackhawk is in CTS-V territory... or might as well be as much as it matters to the Average Joe.  It doesn't matter that FCA is using their Average Joe brand names, they still cost as much as a Cadillac performance vehicle. 

    And Joe can barely handle an Impala V6 at full throttle. 

    And cars that used be 'Average Joe' performance cars like the Camaro SS and Mustang GT are easily $40k and up w/ options.   Average Joe today is driving a FWD 4cyl transverse automatic trans appliance. 

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    I'm wondering what Average Joe considers their price point to be and what performance they would expect at that price point.  The Chevy SS and Pontiac G8 did not exactly send Average Joes clamouring to GM dealerships.  The Stinger GT isn't found at every corner.

     

     

     

     

    Edited by frogger
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    GM used to have cheap Average Joe performance cars like the Cavalier Z24, but with the Cruze there were no performance models or coupes...just boring sedans. 

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    56 minutes ago, regfootball said:

    i don't see the Cruze going away.  GM needs it for CAFE.  

    Regarding the CT6, no way they kill that car after just announcing the v8 for it.  Plus, it delivers what real Cadillac fans want.  Size.  My bet is they move it to another plant, China, or change it to CT7 as suggested.  If Cadillac fully kills that car, then f@#k them.  They deserve what they have coming to them.  Will anyone give two $h!s about Cadillac if they don't offer a full sized sedan?  (but will probably still have a CT3 or CT4).

    I saw an interior spy photo of the CT5 interior on Burlapp cars.  That won't take any business away from the Germans for interior design and quality.  It's a reconfigured XT4 interior.

    The other point about this being a pre-emptive strike in the labor war, that makes sense to me also.

    Sorry to throw this out there, but post 2009, Barra led GM is becoming a joke.  Spend all the $$$ on chasing autonomous cars and complying with CAFE.  Mistakes with Camaro.  No impactful EV releases that would challenge Tesla.  Looking to move all vehicle assembly out of the US, seemingly.  No performance vehicles for the average Joe, that aren't a pony car.

     

     

    If the CT5 grows in size over the CTS then I think CT6 or any other large sedan is finished and they are going the Infiniti 2-Sedan strategy.  But you are right on the CT5 spy photo, that won’t scare any Germans.

    And to the last point, this is why people buy imports.  Aside from the German performance cars you can get a Veloster N, Mazda has some sporty cars, Kia Stinger, etc

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    18 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    GM used to have cheap Average Joe performance cars like the Cavalier Z24, but with the Cruze there were no performance models or coupes...just boring sedans. 

    Ahhh the Z24.... brings back memory of high school and $h! boxes that felt like they were going to fall apart on bad roads even when new.

     

     

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    2 minutes ago, frogger said:

    Ahhh the Z24.... brings back memory of high school and $h! boxes that felt like they were going to fall apart on bad roads even when new.

     

    There was also a Cobalt SS...forgot about that..was trying to think of cheap GM performance cars from the last 15 years or so...

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    1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    There aren't performance vehicles for the average joe.  The Charger Hellcat costs as much as an ATS-V. A Grand Cherokee Trackhawk is in CTS-V territory... or might as well be as much as it matters to the Average Joe.  It doesn't matter that FCA is using their Average Joe brand names, they still cost as much as a Cadillac performance vehicle. 

    And Joe can barely handle an Impala V6 at full throttle. 

    By (enough) performance car (choices) for the average Joe, I refer to say, a midsize sedan --with sport suspension---, that may hit say a 5.5 to 7.0 second 0-60, that sell for a mid level price.  Not just burying the larger motor in a more expensive trim and options package, Regal GS is a great example.  Hey, we'll sell a v6 Regal, but it will only be stickered at 44,000.  Or the 2.0 only being available in Malibu with the full on Premier trim.

    At least Dodge offers the Charger with a v6.  Honda's Accord Sport package is maybe one of the few cars that addresses driving and a decent motor for a close to mid pack middle America price.

    Or even simply, a mid level hatchback with decent handling, not a full blown Focus RS or ST but just something more playful.......Where is a simple 200hp engine upgrade for the Cruze?

     

     

    43 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    GM used to have cheap Average Joe performance cars like the Cavalier Z24, but with the Cruze there were no performance models or coupes...just boring sedans. 

    Right.

    Edited by regfootball

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    Well look at it this way. Does Toyota survive with Japan mostly? Does Mercedes really make any reasonable profit in Germany alone? Aside from the part of the market that they domestically have cornered, it seems the domestic makes here have now become fully globalized and will now only compete where they make money. It’s almost as though they’ve become really conservative. 

    The only automakers making splashes are really some Korean cars and maybe new start-ups where they aren’t compete failures.

     

    Everyting else is cold, calculated and a sign of the times.

     

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    34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    If the CT5 grows in size over the CTS then I think CT6 or any other large sedan is finished and they are going the Infiniti 2-Sedan strategy.  But you are right on the CT5 spy photo, that won’t scare any Germans.

    And to the last point, this is why people buy imports.  Aside from the German performance cars you can get a Veloster N, Mazda has some sporty cars, Kia Stinger, etc

    Stuff I've seen suggests the CT5 surely won't be any larger inside than the CTS, excepting perhaps a little more knee room around a less obtrusive console.  The styling based on spy pics doesn't suggest a game changer or even something improved.

    Large sedan is Cadilac's DNA.  If the CT6 goes away, quite simply, they are f---ed.  CT6 will replace their XTS volume if they repackage their trims and sell enough of them in non platinum 90k plus trim levels.  This simply honors the fact that Cadillac can't sell at absurd transaction prices like the Germans, and that enough of their showroom product has to sell in lower lux tier volume prices to keep the dealerships doors open.

    I'll even go a bit further and suggest the people running GM don't even care 2 shits about the product.  It's old lore that GM was run by bean counters but the influence of performance did come through.  GM is so diluted in crap these days I don't think most at the top give a shit if GM doesn't fade into being Hyundai or Toyota.  GM is more concerned with social media, PR, autonomous driving, electrics, than product.  Show me any of the top tier execs who flex their muscle to fight for anything besides Corvette and Camaro, which may be all they are given the ability to even keep.

    Edited by regfootball
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    Yes yes yes... where is the honorable Bob Lutz when he is desperately needed?  Zero emissions, zero crashes and zero congestion is pure baloney.

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    3 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

    It's weird they would have a plant making only one model.. seems like an inefficient use of resources.

    Bowling Green comes readily to mind.

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    Didn't know about this interesting bit of history concerning GM's Detroit-Hamtramck plant. From Reuters via Automotive News (Subscription Required).

    Quote

    The Detroit-Hamtramck plant stands on 465 acres of land that was once a neighborhood known as "Poletown."

    In 1981, the Michigan Supreme Court approved a decision to allow Detroit to tear down up to 1,500 homes, more than 140 businesses, a hospital and six churches to build the $500 million plant. The Detroit News reported 4,200 people lost their homes as a result.

    GM convinced officials in the cities of Detroit and Hamtramck, the state of Michigan -- and ultimately the state's highest court -- to use eminent domain, a controversial process in which government seizes private land.

    Karen Majewski, the mayor of Hamtramck, told Reuters that the GM plant is one of the largest contributors to local property taxes. Empty, she worried the factory will discourage other investments.

    "They destroyed homes and churches and local businesses, all to build that plant," Majewski said. "Now that the plant is going to close, people will wonder why that neighborhood had to be sacrificed in the first place."

     

     

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    1 hour ago, regfootball said:

    Stuff I've seen suggests the CT5 surely won't be any larger inside than the CTS, excepting perhaps a little more knee room around a less obtrusive console.  The styling based on spy pics doesn't suggest a game changer or even something improved.

    Large sedan is Cadilac's DNA.  If the CT6 goes away, quite simply, they are f---ed.  CT6 will replace their XTS volume if they repackage their trims and sell enough of them in non platinum 90k plus trim levels.  This simply honors the fact that Cadillac can't sell at absurd transaction prices like the Germans, and that enough of their showroom product has to sell in lower lux tier volume prices to keep the dealerships doors open.

    I'll even go a bit further and suggest the people running GM don't even care 2 $h!s about the product.  It's old lore that GM was run by bean counters but the influence of performance did come through.  GM is so diluted in crap these days I don't think most at the top give a $h! if GM doesn't fade into being Hyundai or Toyota.  GM is more concerned with social media, PR, autonomous driving, electrics, than product.  Show me any of the top tier execs who flex their muscle to fight for anything besides Corvette and Camaro, which may be all they are given the ability to even keep.

    The CT5 will probably flop like every other Cadillac sedan since about 2012 has, I agree there seems to be nothing game changing or improved there.  Cadillac was about big sedans, but big sedans don't sell, and Cadillac also dropped the ball on the CT6 by not making it powerful enough, the V8 isn't even out yet.  If you are going to build a big, expensive sedan it should have power and performance, not a torque less V6 or a turbo 4.  And weak product and marketing for decades that has eroded Cadillac's image is why they can't sell for German prices.

    The people running GM are bean counters for sure.  They get a $150 million tax cut this year, turn around and lay off 15,000 people and the stock price goes up 7% today.  I bet Mary Barra's portfolio is looking good, probably a big bonus coming her way too.

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    1 hour ago, Suaviloquent said:

    Well look at it this way. Does Toyota survive with Japan mostly? Does Mercedes really make any reasonable profit in Germany alone? Aside from the part of the market that they domestically have cornered, it seems the domestic makes here have now become fully globalized and will now only compete where they make money. It’s almost as though they’ve become really conservative. 

    The only automakers making splashes are really some Korean cars and maybe new start-ups where they aren’t compete failures.

     

    Everyting else is cold, calculated and a sign of the times.

     

    Mercedes makes money everywhere, USA is only their 3rd biggest market and they have been #1 luxury car company for a while here.  They just built a new factory in South Carolina for the Sprinter with 1,300 new jobs.  They are spending $1.3 billion to expand the Alabama plant to include battery production and that will add more jobs.  They are investing in the USA, as the Detroit 3 bail out.  

    Mercedes is also building a new factory in Germany to build the next S-class, which will be the most technologically advanced and greenest auto manufacturing plant in the world.  They are building new factories and creating jobs.

    1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

    Yes yes yes... where is the honorable Bob Lutz when he is desperately needed?  Zero emissions, zero crashes and zero congestion is pure baloney.

    And chances are they will be next to last to the party in that zero emissions and autonomous car thing.  They'll beat FCA there, and that might be it.

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    For those of us who grew up as GM fans, the GM of today is a pale excuse.  And their stated future plans suck ass.  They've priced themselves into oblivion, for one thing.  And actually having the balls to say their pickups and BOF Suvs profits are going to fund a very risky and suspect future just makes it that much worse.  How much can diehards take before they say ENOUGH?

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    SMK...read again, would Mercedes make reasonable profit if it just had the German market? Hell no! Shareholders and half of the German workers would outright demand the heads to get off their ass and sell more product in other countries! 

    To make more profit! 

    That’s it. Every company finds its way to more profit. They don’t think about products that are nice to have, but rather what makes results.

    i don’t think the car is totally dead, but if you want a sedan, really, import brands overall just did a better job anyways for the model year 2018, especially in lower end trims.

    Maybe a Plutonium Fusion or whatever they used to call it had an interior with a positive reaction... but that’s gone. In its place is an Escape  to a place that needs an Edge that is fulfilled by the Expeditonion-ing Explorer. 

    There he will find his greatest rival, the Park Ranger. Legend says he once was a Raptor in a far off land, but came here with steel in his teeth and and four cyclinders in his heart. That’s probably why he died for like 8 years folks. He had 4 fucking cyclinders in his body. 

    Ford’s new Focus is the F150. That is the model year 2019 Ford Focus. What were you thinking - that it’s a tin pot?! Nope, it’s a BEER CAN. Get your product of metallurgy right dammit! 

    The Continental is no longer needed. You’d think they’d understood that a long time ago. The new continents were found hundreds of years ago. What, are they going to find a need a Continental that goes to Mars? You have Tesla’s in space for that! You need a SpaceEx...A SpaceExpediton. Dammit, looks like someone stole the idea from Ford!

    Instead, Sea, and Air. Where else can Lincoln emancipate the people of luxury? We haven’t mastered those like all of land yet. The Nautilus needs a capable Navigator at its helm. and the Corsair can only fly with a capable Aviator.

    Chrysler probably had a month where they only sold 200 of their former midsize sedans. PTful. Aren’t GIU - glad that they are LIA-ving behind some four leaf clovers instead? Plus they have Charging RAMs and Red eye’d Hellcats. They have harnessed the power of the Demon itself. May you bask in the GUTs and GLORY.

    Thats before you even count all these cute renegade Jeeps prowling around. Their old Wrangler to keep ‘em line just retired like all these employees being bought out. So they have a new one. May he bring forth one in his upbringing to be the next leader... the Commander, the Grand Cherokee..

    And now you may find a day where there’s no Black Cadillacs to be seen in Malibu... except of course the Slades that Elevate to the top of the Sierras. I hear it’s High Country up there. We should all visit Silverados sometime. 

    The V’s that would Cruze to along are a dying breed. Like who watches Lacrosse anyways? Seriously...

    The Volt led to the Bolt. That’s humans trying to reverse nature, because I’m pretty sure it was actually the true bolt of nature than led to the lowly potential of the volt...

     

    Such great legends and stories folks. Long live the prophet....

    the profit.

    Funny how words change in how they’re spelled and pronounced. And thusly we can summarize the history of everything. 

     

     

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    48 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

    For those of us who grew up as GM fans, the GM of today is a pale excuse.  And their stated future plans suck ass.  They've priced themselves into oblivion, for one thing.  And actually having the balls to say their pickups and BOF Suvs profits are going to fund a very risky and suspect future just makes it that much worse.  How much can diehards take before they say ENOUGH?

    The problem with GM's plan is it is a continual cut.  They cut Oldsmobile, then all the other brands during the bankruptcy.  Granted a lot of those they didn't need, but in doing that it should have led them to be able to put more money into each brand to make them stronger and they didn't.

    They have given up on minivans because they couldn't compete there, now they are cutting maybe half their sedans because they can't make profit there.  They cut European operations because they couldn't make money there.  They are basically a China-North American player now that is by 2020 will probably be 80% trucks and SUVS.  So what happens when competitors go after their truck business, because they will.  We see Hyundai and Kia going into the full size SUV market, Tesla will go into pickups, etc.   GM has been in retreat mode for 20 years.

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    I won't be surprised if CT6 moves to Lansing with CT4 and CT5, but I also won't be surprised if the car is just dropped because it has sold so poorly. People with the income to buy new cars just want SUV's, crossovers, and 4 door pickups. 

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    So what happens when competitors go after their truck business, because they will.

    Dude, the Tundra's been here since 1999! "They did" is what you meant to say. How's that working out for toyota?

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    1 hour ago, Suaviloquent said:

    SMK...read again, would Mercedes make reasonable profit if it just had the German market? Hell no! Shareholders and half of the German workers would outright demand the heads to get off their ass and sell more product in other countries! 

    They would not, which is why they are a global company.  And as I said they are investing in the US market, investing in their own market, investing in China/India, etc.  GM cut Europe, is cutting in the USA, they are in a 20 year cut mode.  

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    5 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

    There was also a Cobalt SS...forgot about that..was trying to think of cheap GM performance cars from the last 15 years or so...

    I almost got a 1991 Chevrolet Beretta GTZ but then drove the 1991 Ford Escort GT built by Mazda and it rocked and destroyed the Beretta for less money.

    1991 Beretta GTZ

    See the source image

    1991 Ford Escort GT

    See the source image

    Had the GT for almost 100,000 miles before my wife was rear ended by a DOT truck and totaled it.

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    Guys, this is just the start-

    You haven’t seen anything yet. And not for GM for sure.

    One thing I can say- they see the doom coming for the upcoming recession....

    This will only keep running through the industry..other automakers will follow.

    And welcome the Chinese...their opening has been found.......

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    My sister is in Detroit this week for an offsite meeting at her client (a major automotive industry supplier) and said everyone was talking and speculating about this news yesterday. 

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    https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2018/11/27/mary-barra-gm-general-motors/2116833002/

    This is spot on and I agree CEO Barra is doing the right thing by GM. We cannot keep making the same stupid mistakes of the past and she has grown GM while Ford has fallen 44% in value and is about to implode on debt. All politicians are idiots that cannot seem to exert self control and live within a balanced budget. What Potus 45 said over and over attacking companies, CEO Barra is making sure GM will not have to go back to the GOV for a bailout in our oncoming next recession.

    Rock on Barra! :metal:

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    5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2018/11/27/mary-barra-gm-general-motors/2116833002/

    This is spot on and I agree CEO Barra is doing the right thing by GM. We cannot keep making the same stupid mistakes of the past and she has grown GM while Ford has fallen 44% in value and is about to implode on debt. All politicians are idiots that cannot seem to exert self control and live within a balanced budget. What Potus 45 said over and over attacking companies, CEO Barra is making sure GM will not have to go back to the GOV for a bailout in our oncoming next recession.

    Rock on Barra! :metal:

    Got to love stock market, thousands of people will end up on the street jobless, but stocks went up.  Question is for how long?  People without jobs = bad economy = recession.

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    It was time to do something...but between slashing these products, maybe there's a glimmer of hope they can remake and re-do the remaining set of plebian, out classed and "why isn't it even as nice as the last gen?" current mix of crossovers, embarrassing full size trucks, etc. they have. The shocking "what the heck is THAT thing?" of the current full size trucks intro should have been a visible "UH OH" to days and years to come to everyone.

    Interesting news day. Just one of those...time to rip the bandaid off and stop 45% "kinda look we did it" with a too large mix of products. Things got better after 2009-2010 cuts, then went downhill fast again recently, so hopefully these cuts help...something...🤔 They always struggle to stay on point, somehow.

    Those times as someone above mentioned..."can we borrow Bob Lutz for 3 years as a consultant for everything out now?" Something. Anything. When you can't come out with an all new full size truck generation that makes anyone take a 2nd look, and most laugh, it's a red alert zone.

    Edited by caddycruiser
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    47 minutes ago, ykX said:

    Got to love stock market, thousands of people will end up on the street jobless, but stocks went up.  Question is for how long?  People without jobs = bad economy = recession.

    While I do believe we have a major correction coming for the stock market and a recession that is overdue, I do not think it is that dire when you see a company properly managing by adjusting what they need in manufacturing sites and jobs to survive and make a profit. 

    GM has had poor mgmt for so long that now that they have a hard as nails CEO, it scares people. Yet this is how and what is needed to survive long term.

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    16 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

    There was also a Cobalt SS...forgot about that..was trying to think of cheap GM performance cars from the last 15 years or so...

    The HHR SS was in the mix as well. 

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    11 hours ago, balthazar said:

    Dude, the Tundra's been here since 1999! "They did" is what you meant to say. How's that working out for toyota?

    I point the finger of shame at Toyota for not being more competitive in the full size truck game.  The Tundra is way dated, super dated powertains, etc.  Let's not forget that the Tacoma basically helped put the Dakota and Ranger out of business.  But Toyota should be embarrassed for not having a better Tundra that can sell 2500,000 units per year, they aren't going to top Ford or Chevy but they should be taking a bigger chunk.

    11 hours ago, dfelt said:

    I almost got a 1991 Chevrolet Beretta GTZ but then drove the 1991 Ford Escort GT built by Mazda and it rocked and destroyed the Beretta for less money.

    1991 Beretta GTZ

    See the source image

    1991 Ford Escort GT

    See the source image

    Had the GT for almost 100,000 miles before my wife was rear ended by a DOT truck and totaled it.

    I miss cars with no grill.  This 2 pull it off, the 2000 Monte Carlo and the late 90s, early 2000s Oldsmobiles were no grill.   I like the all solid body color up front on these two, and that is a styling trend I wish would come back in some places.  Almost every car now has the same trapezoid shaped mesh opening up front.

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    Yes these changes are hard, very hard.  Mary Barra is the type of CEO GM needed instead of All the Failed CEOs from 1980-2010.  GM may need to be smaller than Ford in order to NOT ask for a bailout of any kind for the next decade.  A recession will come and she is battening down the hatches.  If a nasty recession hits, GM will survive.  Ford may not survive because of that debt overhang from the last recession (that Ford still has not resolved).  FCA may well be Dead auto company Walking as we speak.  Toyota and Honda and Hyundai/KIA will not only be fine but will probably thrive since NONE of their domestic markets were ever invaded or conquered.  The Germans have to deal with DieselGate and a stagnant European car market, despite what smk4565 said about Daimler building a new factory for the S-Class.  And on top of all that, China may well dominate all others by 2030 barring some miracle.

    The only real complaint that I have is that a lot of GM pricing could stand to be reduced by $2500-5000 per vehicle.  New cars are ridiculously unaffordable across the board.  Even KIAs rarely bring real cost savings versus the competition.  The industry is far too reliant on leasing to keep dealers afloat.  That is an unsustainable business model for which will end in tears sooner rather than later.  I know that without expensive leases and their painfully restrictive terms, the industry could not get away with these insane MSRPs.

     

    Why all these cuts?  Simple: a lot of Baby Boomers (and younger buyers) ditched GM for Germany and Japan since at least the late '70s, and few have turned back.

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    GM pulled down $2.5 billion in net profit last quarter. They're not remotely flirting with either bankruptcy or asking for a bailout, and they're not in the same hemisphere they were the single time they ever asked for a 'loan guarantee' in their then 100-year history (of which saw numerous recessions).

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    As an enthusiast.. this is horrible news from General Motors.. that leaves a great deal of us scratching our heads wondering how a company like this can:

    1) Not have an entry level sedan such as the Cruze when there exists a Civic, Corolla, Maz3, Elantra?

    2) Not have a Large sized Impala or Large Lux CT6, both which have been acclaimed vehicles since they arrived?

    3) Kill the LaXat Buick and Volt at Chevy?

    But then I see the Rivian.. and Tesla.. and Bolt. and realize that GM made this announcement almost 2 years ago and no one paid attention.. Definitely not me. Remember the announcement that GM wold have 20 new EV vehicles by 2023

    Quote

    “General Motors believes in an all-electric future,” said Mark Reuss, General Motors executive vice president of Product Development, Purchasing and Supply Chain. “Although that future won't happen overnight, GM is committed to driving increased usage and acceptance of electric vehicles through no-compromise solutions that meet our customers' needs.” Cadillac Press Release

    Got me thinking.. Could this be it? Is this the date of change.. sorta like a GOING ON-LINE DATE? 

    Thinking.. Why would U need a Cruze sized vehicle if the goal of the Cruze was to cut emissions? An EV would instantly do that. I will be the first to wonder why the Volt would be killed.. as it would be the perfect name to simply go all electric is we are at the point that we can do so with better range than even the 250 miles range of the 60 kWh Bolt. Surely GM can beat the Rivian's range estimates of  300 miles for the 135-kwh,  400 miles for the 180-kwh, and 230 miles for the 105-kwh.

    Obviously to me.. the lost of the Impala and CT6 are the most hurtful.. as I was planning to get a CT6-V at the end of the year. I realize it will be available.. but how rare will it be. Future classic no doubt. Still knocks me in the head that the Omega platform was not utilized in such a way that it accommodated not only the CT6, but also the Impala (merged with SS). Alas.. ACCEPTANCE is what it is.. if GM is doing what I said above, because lets face it.. if they don;t move ahead with electrification.. they are DONE in 15 years. I mean it. IF THIS IS THE PLAN.. then applaud Mary Barra, an engineer by training. A lotta people are thinking about the Human factor concerning the lost of thousands of jobs.. Baltimore is slated to lose 300 jobs. That hits close to home. EV and Hydrogen powered vehicles will sit along with the Gas/diesel ones for another decade I'm sure.

    AR-171009946.jpg

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    I also maintain that I think that research went into where to yank product. Looking at the situation objectively.. if U look at Buick.. the LaX is the one to go.. especially since the XTS is dead.. At Chevy.. the Impala would have again stayed coupled with the CT6 on Omega.. but I have to believe that Chevy is not completely pulling a "1996" and abandoning full-size for SUVs again.. making the case for the sudden emergence of the FWD based Blazer make sense. The CRUZE.. again.. if the Sonic is gonna stay, and its essentially going to move up in size slightly.. kill the Spark and be... WAITTAMINUTE.. Could they be keeping the SPARK name alive and putting it on an complete line of EV cars? Like Chevy "Spark" Chevy Bolt etc.. but all of them EV? So why not keep the Volt.. a perfect EV play on words too? 

    Quote

    Cadillac will get a “disproportionate share” of the 20 all-electric vehiclesthat GM plans to bring to market globally by 2023,  BLOOMBERG

    Cadillac ? Maybe they needed to make room.. for this. 

    Edited by Cmicasa the Great
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    9 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

    As an enthusiast.. this is horrible news from General Motors.. that leaves a great deal of us scratching our heads wondering how a company like this can:

    1) Not have an entry level sedan such as the Cruze when there exists a Civic, Corolla, Maz3, Elantra?

    2) Not have a Large sized Impala or Large Lux CT6, both which have been acclaimed vehicles since they arrived?

    3) Kill the LaXat Buick and Volt at Chevy?

     

    1. Ford will have no entry level sedan either.  Neither does FCA.  They've given up, leaving the entry level market to the Japanese and Korean car makers, who know how to build them profitably.

    2. Sales #s of those models are down and the full size segment continues to decline. 

    3. For the LaX, same as the Impala...dying models in a dying segment.  For the Volt, maybe they have an EV CUV in the works to replace it. 

    Like Ford and FCA, they are hoping sales of trucks, CUVs, and SUVs can sustain them until they get their EV and AV plans fully realized...

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    2 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    1. Ford will have no entry level sedan either.  Neither does FCA.  They've given up, leaving the entry level market to the Japanese and Korean car makers, who know how to build them profitably.

    2. Sales #s of those models are down and the full size segment continues to decline. 

    3. For the LaX, same as the Impala...dying models in a dying segment.  For the Volt, maybe they have an EV CUV in the works to replace it. 

    I agree on #3. I don;t completely agree on #1. I stand by the possibility that because Chevy is one of the few builders with not one.. but 4 Small cars in its line-up.. it makes zero sense to keep all of them.. as I have stated for years concerning the Sonic/Spark and Cruze/Volt.. constantly stating that the Volt and Cruze should have always been one vehicle.. and the Sonic.. being the bones of the Trax, should have always been allowed to be the only sub-compact instead of having to compete on lot with the cheaper Spark

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    It's weird, the Cruze was built here in NE Ohio, but the 2nd gen is completely unseen on the roads.  I've seen maybe a 1/2 dozen of them around NE Ohio in the last 18 months.    Yet I see Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, and, Kia compact sedans daily....I rarely ever see Sonics or Sparks either.  

    The Sonic and Spark are leftovers from 10 years ago or so when subcompact cars still sold--Ford brought in the Fiesta, the Fiat 500 came, the Fit, etc but that niche seems to have dried up. 

    Edited by Robert Hall

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    16 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    1. Ford will have no entry level sedan either.  Neither does FCA.  They've given up, leaving the entry level market to the Japanese and Korean car makers, who know how to build them profitably.

    2. Sales #s of those models are down...

    Sales of the japanese/Korean entry level market cars are ALSO down. Question is, who moved quicker to head off the inevitable?

    Edited by balthazar
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    5 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    It's weird, the Cruze was built here in NE Ohio, but the 2nd gen is completely unseen on the roads.  I've seen maybe a 1/2 dozen of them around NE Ohio in the last 18 months.    Yet I see Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, and, Kia compact sedans daily....I rarely ever see Sonics or Sparks either.  

    The Sonic and Spark are leftovers from 10 years ago or so when subcompact cars still sold--Ford brought in the Fiesta, the Fiat 500 came, the Fit, etc but that niche seems to have dried up. 

    If that's the case.. no offense.. those workers and their family.. and their friends.. are gonna get what they deserve if the plant closes. Seriously. The CRUZE is a top notch small car. Its reliable.. good looking.. quick.. has plenty of tech. I tell people all the time that in Germany and Europe... VWs sell because the IG Metal Auto Union has many workers.. and they understand the idea of reap what U sow. Hell I look like driving a Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, and, Kia compact sedan when my family.. friends.. work at the Chevy plant?

    "Hey Dad.. why can't we eat tonite? "

    "Well Sandy.. U and your friends bought a Civic made up in Ontario"

    5 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Sales of the japanese/Korean entry level market cars are ALSO down. Question is, who moved quicker to head off the inevitable?

    I don't get it.. but U're right.. CARS are just not what people want anymore on mass versus the CUV. Its literally in the numbers. Not one announcement by GM that anything sitting lower than a Trax was gettin the axe.. not even the Bolt. 

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    A problem I see is utter lack of demand for electric cars.  How about those Bolt sales?  Bolt and Leaf are the friendliest electrics on the market... and they most certainly struggle to sell.  I just do not see this pie in the sky plan working.  There is no clamor for it.

    Edited by ocnblu
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    15 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

    A problem I see is utter lack of demand for electric cars.  How about those Bolt sales?  Bolt and Leaf are the friendliest electrics on the market... and they most certainly struggle to sell.  I just do not see this pie in the sky plan working.  There is no clamor for it.

    if their life depends on it,, I believe they will make it mainstream. That's it.. That's it. 

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    Except most Hondas and Acuras are built in Ohio or Indiana, while the Odyssey, Ridgeline and Pilot are made in Alabama.  Buying an Accord or CR-V supports Ohio workers.  Civics are made in the US and Canada.  

    And if GM wanted people to buy the Cruze then it should have been a better car at a better price.  They never offered a performance version, they offered a $28k diesel that was way over priced that no one was going to buy, that was just bad execution all around.

    As far as what products get cut you have look at market sizes.  Mid-size car is still about 2 million units per year in the USA.  Small car is less, large car is maybe 200k units a year and all 3 are shrinking.   I can see GM competing only in mid-size sedan with Chevy/Buick, and giving Cadillac 2 sedans.  The volume is in crossovers.

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    37 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

    if their life depends on it,, I believe they will make it mainstream. That's it.. That's it. 

    Their life according to whom exactly?  If consumer demand is non-existent to a very large degree, with governments in 180-degree alignment with consumers... who loses?  There is no positive way to spin it.  If they are not demanded by citizens, how will these car companies survive on legislated dreams alone?

    25 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Except most Hondas and Acuras are built in Ohio or Indiana, while the Odyssey, Ridgeline and Pilot are made in Alabama.  Buying an Accord or CR-V supports Ohio workers.  Civics are made in the US and Canada.  

    And if GM wanted people to buy the Cruze then it should have been a better car at a better price.  They never offered a performance version, they offered a $28k diesel that was way over priced that no one was going to buy, that was just bad execution all around.

    As far as what products get cut you have look at market sizes.  Mid-size car is still about 2 million units per year in the USA.  Small car is less, large car is maybe 200k units a year and all 3 are shrinking.   I can see GM competing only in mid-size sedan with Chevy/Buick, and giving Cadillac 2 sedans.  The volume is in crossovers.

    I am way more interested now than I was before GM's announcement and implied future plans to see the Honda Passport.  Anything but a GM product.  Further, the 2019 Ram 1500 - Motor Trend truck of the Year!  With no time needed to adjust myself to the new look.

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    ^ It IS unprecedented in history: Government "paying" you via a tax credit, to buy a private (IE: not Gov't) company's product.

    What ever happened to Separation of Company & State? ;)

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    3 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    A problem I see is utter lack of demand for electric cars.  How about those Bolt sales?  Bolt and Leaf are the friendliest electrics on the market... and they most certainly struggle to sell.  I just do not see this pie in the sky plan working.  There is no clamor for it.

    There is, that is why they added another shift of Bolt production both here in North America and in China, the Bolt is selling well. Marketing has always sucked at GM and that is why they do not sell more. If they offered as many choices on configurations as GM does on trucks, the BOLT would sell allot more. Add in they should have had at the Volt 2.0 release a CUV Volt also as that is what the public wants.

    2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    Their life according to whom exactly?  If consumer demand is non-existent to a very large degree, with governments in 180-degree alignment with consumers... who loses?  There is no positive way to spin it.  If they are not demanded by citizens, how will these car companies survive on legislated dreams alone?

    I am way more interested now than I was before GM's announcement and implied future plans to see the Honda Passport.  Anything but a GM product.  Further, the 2019 Ram 1500 - Motor Trend truck of the Year!  With no time needed to adjust myself to the new look.

    Enjoy your gutless honda passport that is replacing your gutless jeep. At least you go from 4 banger to 6 banger. ;) 

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    Why is the Passport gutless?  It isn't even on sale yet, but the Pilot/Ridgeline/Odyssey seem to be pretty proven over time.  The Passport interior looks better than a Blazer or Edge.  I am not a Honda fan, but the Passport seems just as good as anything else in this segment.

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    7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Why is the Passport gutless?  It isn't even on sale yet, but the Pilot/Ridgeline/Odyssey seem to be pretty proven over time.  The Passport interior looks better than a Blazer or Edge.  I am not a Honda fan, but the Passport seems just as good as anything else in this segment.

    Hold up... hold up.. U think this

    CR-Cars-InlineHero-2019-Honda-Passport-f

     

    looks better than this

     

    45b7547b-2019-chevy-blazer-videos.jpg

     

    Dude.. U done bumped your goofy head

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    14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Why is the Passport gutless?  It isn't even on sale yet, but the Pilot/Ridgeline/Odyssey seem to be pretty proven over time.  The Passport interior looks better than a Blazer or Edge.  I am not a Honda fan, but the Passport seems just as good as anything else in this segment.

    Have you driven a Pilot or Ridgeline or Odyssey? yes they move the auto, but performance and excitement they are not. This is just a shaved CUV of those ugly blah auto's for people who want blah auto's. Gutless to me it is.

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    48 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Have you driven a Pilot or Ridgeline or Odyssey? yes they move the auto, but performance and excitement they are not. This is just a shaved CUV of those ugly blah auto's for people who want blah auto's. Gutless to me it is.

    A performance Honda?  An exciting Honda?  You must be talking about the late Acura NSX or something like that.  Honda builds engines and then the appliances around them (excluding their motorcycles).

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    1 hour ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

    Hold up... hold up.. U think this

    CR-Cars-InlineHero-2019-Honda-Passport-f

     

    looks better than this

     

    45b7547b-2019-chevy-blazer-videos.jpg

     

    Dude.. U done bumped your goofy head

     

    Well, as much as I like the Blazer, at least the Passport has balls....something I actually EXPECTED the Blazer to come with.

    Hell, they could at least made some use out of this cute Ute and throw a modded 3.6 and made a hot rod model out of it...

    That said, I’m less worried about electric cars/trucks, more more worried about the lack of people who want to buy them. Car nuts like us could argue all day over what we want in out cars, but the reality is most younger folk don’t want to drive, or even waste the money on one so they can spend more time/money on their phones or lifestyle.

    We are but a dying breed here guys.....I at least find comfort that my 10 year old son cares and wants to be a car guy....

    Self driving and public transportation is the future....please shoot me now. They’ll have to pry the steering wheel out of my cold, dead hands.........

    Edited by daves87rs
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    12 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

     

    Well, as much as I like the Blazer, at least the Passport has balls....something I actually EXPECTED the Blazer to come with.

    Hell, they could at least made some use out of this cute Ute and throw a modded 3.6 and made a hot rod model out of it...

    That said, I’m less worried about electric cars/trucks, more more worried about the lack of people who want to buy them. Car nuts like us could argue all day over what we want in out cars, but the reality is most younger folk don’t want to drive, or even waste the money on one so they can spend more time/money on their phones or lifestyle.

    We are but a dying breed here guys.....I at least find comfort that my 10 year old son cares and wants to be a car guy....

    Self driving and public transportation is the future....please shoot me now. They’ll have to pry the steering wheel out of my cold, dead hands.........

    Sadly I see way too many young people more engrossed in social media on their smartphone and using Uber / Lyft than wanting to drive. 🤷‍♂️

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    1 minute ago, dfelt said:

    Sadly I see way too many young people more engrossed in social media on their smartphone and using Uber / Lyft than wanting to drive. 🤷‍♂️

    I also think that the price of cars and such has got a bit high...which is not helping either.

    Too much crap on cars and not enough “base” models kinda kills the imagination ......

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    1 minute ago, daves87rs said:

    I also think that the price of cars and such has got a bit high...which is not helping either.

    Too much crap on cars and not enough “base” models kinda kills the imagination ......

    Very true, companies have forgotten that they have to have base model, for people to afford and start out with. I see no reason to not have a base model car that has manual door locks, manual windows, no AC, basic AM/FM radio and minimal electronics as a starter auto for teens / college students.

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    3 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Very true, companies have forgotten that they have to have base model, for people to afford and start out with. I see no reason to not have a base model car that has manual door locks, manual windows, no AC, basic AM/FM radio and minimal electronics as a starter auto for teens / college students.

    Never thought I would say it, but I miss them....

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    5 minutes ago, daves87rs said:

    Never thought I would say it, but I miss them....

    These base auto's were very trouble free due to the lack of electronics and ease of maintenance. Think how solid a base auto from any auto company would be if it was all manual with minimal gov required safety devices. It could with proper maintenance outlast many more expensive auto's.

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    3 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    These base auto's were very trouble free due to the lack of electronics and ease of maintenance. Think how solid a base auto from any auto company would be if it was all manual with minimal gov required safety devices. It could with proper maintenance outlast many more expensive auto's.

    Yep, I think I have the last of them....a 2003 and 2004 base Cavaliers. Neither one has power anything! And I can count the issues I have had on one hand.... 🙂 

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    Electric/autonomous = utter joylessness.  They want cars to be like phones.  But how much will this week's model be worth when next week's model comes out?  I will never willingly enter a pod and sit there like a vegetable while it takes me to that dead end.

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    6 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

    Hold up... hold up.. U think this

    CR-Cars-InlineHero-2019-Honda-Passport-f

     

    looks better than this

     

    45b7547b-2019-chevy-blazer-videos.jpg

     

    Dude.. U done bumped your goofy head

    Why should I help fund Barra's cockamamie vision of the future?  The Blazer RS WAS on my radar until  I choked on the price tag.  The Passport, yes, it is a shortie Pilot with black trim, but it will be roomier than the Blazer, and it still has a proper V6 engine and some sort of ability to deal with unpaved roads.  I still hate the Ridgeline though.

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    2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    Why should I help fund Barra's cockamamie vision of the future?  The Blazer RS WAS on my radar until  I choked on the price tag.  The Passport, yes, it is a shortie Pilot with black trim, but it will be roomier than the Blazer, and it still has a proper V6 engine and some sort of ability to deal with unpaved roads.  I still hate the Ridgeline though.

     

    So let me fund Honda's vision.. or Toyota's.. or BMW's??? Protest change by funding other companies' change.. cause its coming.Best believe

    The "ABILITY TO DEAL WITH AN UNPAVED ROAD" part.. So by that U are saying that after U drove.. after the press drove the Blazer.. it couldn't deal with unpaved roads? Yeah.. because nothing says "we're a Jeep or Hummer" like matte black on the front... anyway.. Post a review.. any review.. and not just pamphlet words from an Autoshow Honda rep.

    Some one mentioned V6.. What did I miss? The Chevy has a V6 in the Premier and RS.. 3.6-liter V6 making 305 horses and 269 pound-feet vs the Passport's V6 @280 hp and 262 lb-ft of torque.. OOOOOHHHHH.. because Honda decided to only give U one choice.. and we hate the fact that GM is giving us an engine choice... 

    Price.. correct me if I'm wrong but they all start about the same projected price if the Ridgeline is an indicator.. OH! V6 vs V6 price only.. well there U got me.. but again I point to the fact that on the Chevy I'm getting more HP and more torque.. and the price of the Chevy with the V6 is coming with AWD.. cause the way y'all are kicking it the Honda comes with STANDARD AWD.. which is WRONG!!! Furthermore the Blazer AWD system is very capable as it is supposed to be the exact same as in the Acadia and XT5. 

    Blazer.jpg

    Also.. far as I know.. and this the kicker. As of this writing.. a few months from now I walk into a Chevy dealership and the seemingly SAFE from Kill-Off SUV/CUV line-up is Trax, Equinox, Blazer, Traverse, Tahoe, Suburban.. at Honda.. HR-V, CR-V, Passport, Pilot.. I would say I'd rather take my chances at Chevy

    LMFAO at the idea that now we are hating on GM because it is embracing FAR-SIGHTEDNESS... because we love the smell of gas and oil. I promise U... I'm more of a car guy that many.. and if it comes to me having to buy a Corvette or Cadillac or Chevy.. a Buick.. hell a GMC.. with a power-train that is capable of 400+ Miles with me not having to spend $50-70 on gas... I'm all for it. Add in the benefits of Zero Emissions, extreme acceleration and extremely limited maintenance.. and I'm on board.

    On to a different  portion of this.. Far as I know.. Autonomous driving will not be the only mode of transportation. If that is a setting.. I'm all for it. Plenty of times I hang out too long and dribk too much.. wouldn't have an issue with my car demanding I take a quick blow-Sobriety check and then say "Shut the f@#k up.. I'm driving Cmi.. "😒     Oh.. its gonna be an argument...😑 I'm gonna tell that car to f@#k off... but then its not gonna start.. have me sit there for a minute.. serve me another WhistlePig🙂.. and I'm gonna shut the f@#k up and awaaaaay we go.😎

    Edited by Cmicasa the Great
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    ^ Everybody is STILL waiting for the much ballyhooed flying cars, going on roughly 60 years now.
    You'll be wheeled from room to room by a nurse's aide before you're still getting plastered and having your autonomous car drive you down city streets/ back roads.

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    10 hours ago, dfelt said:

    There is, that is why they added another shift of Bolt production both here in North America and in China, the Bolt is selling well.

    Bolt had it's best month this year in October, moving 2075 units. But it still trails the Volt by 1000 units on the year and 2000 is nothing to write home about. Cruze is doing about 37,000 units/month. Bolt is only "selling well" for an electric car, but it's selling very poorly for a small car. Cruze is rumored/supposedly going away, assumedly/supposedly for profitability reasons. Think on that one a bit.

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    7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Bolt had it's best month this year in October, moving 2075 units. But it still trails the Volt by 1000 units on the year and 2000 is nothing to write home about. Cruze is doing about 37,000 units/month. Bolt is only "selling well" for an electric car, but it's selling very poorly for a small car. Cruze is rumored/supposedly going away, assumedly/supposedly for profitability reasons. Think on that one a bit.

    I think that was about 37k for the 3rd quarter...remember, GM switched from monthly reporting to quarterly to hide the monthly results. 

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    1 minute ago, balthazar said:

    ^ Everybody is STILL waiting for the much ballyhooed flying cars, going on roughly 60 years now.
    You'll be wheeled from room to room by a nurse's aide before you're still getting plastered and having your autonomous car drive you down city streets/ back roads.

    Well DAMN.. I was reeeeally looking forward to some extreme bar hopping and binge drinking without having to pay Uber and Lyft $70 on a Friday night. 

    Either way.. Autonomous driving is the SECONDARY portion of all this.. hell.. even the EV part we won't see in complete realization for the next 5 years. But.. at the end of 2019 six vehicles (LaX, Impala, XTS. CT6, Volt and Cruze) are DEAD!!! And will be replaced somewhere else.. GM is trimming fat in its employee line-up which is the real story being reported due to Trump's announcement to cut  subsidies.. which BTW.. even GM is asking.. "What Subsidies" considering in a few months the Tax credit to SHOPPERS is gonna run out as Tesla's has already.  

    Again.. if the Cruze is being replaced by a larger Sonic.. and the Spark is gonna continue as an EV along with the Bolt.. that makes sense.. and I have suggested it many times in the past. I would have rather kept the Cruze name but hey.. to @Robert Hall's portion about GM/Ford/Chry not being able to produce a profitable compact in the U.S... I say interesting enough the SONIC was actually being produced at a profit while being built here. Also.. the domestics issue with compact cars laid not so much in the cars.. but more so in the marketing.. and their want to spend that marketing dollar on trucks and suvs.. ironically now. Part of that marketing issue laid in a thing as simple as NAMES. The Corolla has been a name since 1966. As $h!ty of a car as it is.. It's formula isn't much different that it was then either.. and it has sold a $h!-load. Oh.. the formula= BASIC transportation with little to know innovation except necessary safety features so we can sell in that territory. Oh.. and a name that U remember.  On good authority Chevy's Cruze was originally called Corvair (well kinda) , then Vega, then Monza, the Cavalier, then Cobalt, then Cruze. I also have it on good authority that damn near every negative thing that has happened to those cars that needed be called a massive recall happened in some way to varying degree to the Corolla.. but TOYOTA.. Toyota said keep the name.. and push thru it. Hell, if the Cruze was just still called Cavalier.. it would be well known enough that U could have sales on par with the Civic. The last generation Cruze was for a while in 2010 the top selling Compact if my memory serves.

    LOL.. look at me messing up part of my argument for GM's new edict on innovation... by saying that Toyota may have been right by NOT innovating. In fact.. Chrysler is currently making profits and has good will from enthusiasts for using a formula that has literally been around since the first GTO debuted. The architecture of their cars is 20 years old literally, but they sell because of good marketing and the simple act of putting a big engine in a car so it goes fast in a straight line.. the VERY THING THAT GM and FORD were criticized for thru out the late 80s-and 90s for when the European cars started becoming popular. Now.. I could damn near out handle a Challenger SRT with my YUKON. SMDH. America and conservatism are gonna kill this country's leadership at some point I fear

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    7 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    I think that was about 37k for the 3rd quarter...remember, GM switched from monthly reporting to quarterly to hide the monthly results. 

    My bad- read the wrong column. Cruze did 32K for the quarter, it's 110K YTD.
    Bolt sold 4K for the 3rd quarter, or 13% of the Cruze's volume.

    Edited by balthazar

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    11 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Bolt had it's best month this year in October, moving 2075 units. But it still trails the Volt by 1000 units on the year and 2000 is nothing to write home about. Cruze is doing about 37,000 units/month. Bolt is only "selling well" for an electric car, but it's selling very poorly for a small car. Cruze is rumored/supposedly going away, assumedly/supposedly for profitability reasons. Think on that one a bit.

    I think the thinking is that if the Volt is dead... those sales will probably go right to the Bolt. I could see that too. The Volt is at Detroit-Hamtramck which is getting the axe.. furthermore the Volt was up for a redo in 2020.. Who says that the Volt is really dead? It may just being renamed and reconfigured (FINALLY) to be a CUV  EV in line with the Bolt. AGAIN.. 

    GM-All-Electric-Path-To-Zero-Emissions.j

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    Haven't written this much in a while on any forum..😂

    Anyone notice that COROLLA sales are down 15%? Civic 28%? This is a real thing. Cars, at least in every segment outside of Sports and Mid are simply dying.. as one can get a categorized TALL-CAR for the same price with more room and similar fuel economy. This is not the days of U had to buy a compact to get great fuel economy.. no.. the CUVs are getting similar fuel economy to the cars. In other word this isn't a time anymore where it was a Cavalier vs a TrailBlazer.. the time now is a Cruze vs a Trax or Equinox

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    Trump says GM should repay U.S. taxpayers for bailout
    The bill: $11.2 billion in taxpayer money lost saving the company

    "The U.S. government lost $11.2 billion on its bailout of General Motors, according to a 2014 government report. The government invested about $50 billion to bail out GM as a result of the company's 2009 bankruptcy, and at one time held a 61 percent equity stake in the Detroit-based automaker.

    Treasury whittled down its GM stake through a series of stock sales starting in November 2010, with the remaining shares sold in December 2013 at a $11.2 billion loss."

    Autoblog

    Edited by ykX

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    12 minutes ago, ykX said:

    Trump says GM should repay U.S. taxpayers for bailout
    The bill: $11.2 billion in taxpayer money lost saving the company

    "The U.S. government lost $11.2 billion on its bailout of General Motors, according to a 2014 government report. The government invested about $50 billion to bail out GM as a result of the company's 2009 bankruptcy, and at one time held a 61 percent equity stake in the Detroit-based automaker.

    Treasury whittled down its GM stake through a series of stock sales starting in November 2010, with the remaining shares sold in December 2013 at a $11.2 billion loss."

    Autoblog

    So BASICALLY.. we should re-write the rules of the Stock market because the US Treasury didn't know when to get out or how long to stay in. Its sold its shares at the wrong time.. Bottom line. If I sell my shares of a company when its down.. I lose money.. if I wait and sell at the right time.. I make money. 

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    This is what I'm talking about..

     

     

    3480lbs of car.. and 630 lb-ft of torque available at 1 rpm
     

    Edited by Cmicasa the Great
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