Decision coming on $100K+ Caddy

[Windy-57]

According to this GM will decide between giving Cadillac a supercar, S-Class fighter, a high priced coupe (Bentley Continental GT or CLS fighter I would assume), or none of the above. Question is, if you had to choose one, which would it be?

Personally, I'm voting for an S-Class fighter. I think the rest of Caddy's lineup would benefit from the image boost and a supercar would slightly overlap the XLR.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/03/12/100k-caddy-a-go-again/

I feel like this should have been posted already, is this being discussed somewhere else?

[Northstar]

The Cien would be awesome, but I think it steps on the Corvette's toes too much. Hopefully the ULS gets the go ahead.

[CSpec]

An S-class fighter would be great, but only if it can actually compete head-to-head with the Merc (no excuses!).

[ToniCipriani]

S-Class might be aiming a bit high, 7-series would be a more reasonable target.

But luxury fullsize, I'm all for it.

[mjdecker]

One hand I'd jump all over a mid engine V12 super car, but then, as mentioned, that could be overlapping the Corvette's territory (Blue Devil, or what ever it's called now). So I would say a heavily Sixteen inspired 7 series or S-Class fighter.

Now, one thing I've been wondering, If this were to happen, what would the engine options be?

V8? Supercharged V8? V10? Supercharged V10? V12?

[ehaase]

None of the above. The XLR and STS need to be more successful before developing a $100K+ Cadillac.

[Robert Hall]

I'd rather see Cadillac have a good $65-80k competitor for the LS.

[VenSeattle]

I'd rather see Cadillac have a good $65-80k competitor for the LS.

This type of car doesn't exclude Cadillac from receiving a Lexus GS/LS Competitor. More than likely, the über sedan would compete with the LS as well, just like the Mercedes S-Class does. Personally, I think the STS/DTS replacement will cover most of the $50k-$80k sedan territory for Cadillac.

* I added a poll for people to vote.

[red]

A legitimate S-Class competitor is nearly impossible to perfect...Mercedes, BMW, and the like have been perfecting this class of car for decades.

If Cadillac produces anything in that price range, it's got to be its own beast, not a competitor. It must carve out its own niche, its own little market, as the blueblood rich will unlikely plunk down for an unproven candidate. It must excel in the normal categories, but do things very differently. This direction is very generalized, but hopefully that is the mindset that GM planners have at this point.

And I'm against any Cien-like production sports car. I don't believe that a sports car is proper in positioning a rising luxury brand. Additionally, sports cars have a very short "appeal" life, especially in today's high-design marketplace. The next model year, some new, low-volume sports car will come out and last year's previous poster-seller will soon be forgotten. A true luxury 4-door is where it's at.

Edited March 15, 2007 by red

[Drew Dowdell]

It's gotta look something like this:

[balthazar]

Cadillac can do even better than the Sixteen.

Logic would point to a sedan-configuration being the strongest business case, but my heart votes for a big coupe.

[Oracle of Delphi]

I didn't vote for anything here. GM needs to roll that development money that they would have wasted on a 100K car, into the current Cadillac cars that they have onboard now. Get them right first, then maybe, just maybe!

Edited March 15, 2007 by Pontiac-Custom-S

[97regalGS]

The Cien would be awesome, but I think it steps on the Corvette's toes too much. Hopefully the ULS gets the go ahead.

i think the Cien should be supreme supercar at GM and the corvette should be, well, the corvette.

[97regalGS]

cadillac is starting to be a bit of a disappointment. the NG CTS is awesome, BUT, the STS is bland, the XLR hasn't done as well as it could have, the DTS is an old, tired FWD platform Deville with a new nose and ass and the SRX is a complete dud in the market, espite winning C&D Luxury SUV for 3yrs in a row.

the disappointment, is the lack of continual new product and expansion of the brand. NO alpha car yet. no BRX yet. no ULS yet. a teaser with the Cien. No coupe yet. No kappa. I mean really.

get your brand strategy sorted out, develope the product mix and get on with it...... oh wait, Cadillac is not an independent company, they are part of GM who, unfortunatley has several other fires to deal with right now that are taking the necessary resources away from Cadillac. Pontiac, Saturn and Buick are all in various stages of product refreshes.

end result, Cadillac is not getting where it needs to fast enough. it will be a decade before Cadillac has a line-up that starts to rival MB or BMW.

[zeek]

give me the cien and price it around $90K w/ the z06 engine or the new gen N* 8 with a blower. if this is the less expensive option then do it! this will also make for a nice platform for a mid engine limited production vette if they decide or turn the next vette into a mid engine car and use this chassis.

as for the xlr, sales haven't been great and it's getting long in the tooth if you ask me. they need to change it up and this would do it. this option is less expensive, as the article says, so if it sells well and can be shared with a new vette then they could ALSO make a 7 series class car.

[AM6_Cutlass]

Would love to see a big luxo coupe, but the sedan probably makes the best business case. If it's sucessful, they could always add a coupe the next round. Either way, nothing I'll be able to afford anytime soon... even if I traded my HOUSE on one.

[turbo200]

give me the cien and price it around $90K w/ the z06 engine or the new gen N* 8 with a blower. if this is the less expensive option then do it! this will also make for a nice platform for a mid engine limited production vette if they decide or turn the next vette into a mid engine car and use this chassis.

as for the xlr, sales haven't been great and it's getting long in the tooth if you ask me. they need to change it up and this would do it. this option is less expensive, as the article says, so if it sells well and can be shared with a new vette then they could ALSO make a 7 series class car.

yes! this sounds great. mid engine vette is all i'm craving. who cares which is faster, as long as the more expensive cien is understandly at least as quick as the vette. this is all about the new world, and two cool ass amazing cars can co-exist in the same lineup. just make sure to make a vert version of the cien as well as the vette. i like your idea for price too, right around the R8 [i think right?]; well in the thick of a lot of hyper perofrmance cars, and an incredible alternative to XK8. something to wake the dormant image of Caddy these days.

A Kappa 2+2 roadster in the vein of SC430 for Caddy and Buick sounds like a good proposition too. Kappa two seater for Caddy with real roadster driving also makes sense in the 40k market.

Edited March 17, 2007 by turbo200

[turbo200]

100+k Caddys sounds ridicdulous when they can't even figure out the sub 100k lineups. GM has been missing opportunities to finally have a complete, world-class lineup that resounds with the public in the form of Caddy. It's ludicrous that they finally have two great release [CTS and Escalade] and that is all we have yet again. Stupid business.

[aldw]

Getting the lineup to properly compete with 3/5/7-series and C/E/S-class vehicles should be Caddy's absolute priority, then build the Cien as the best GM performance car, period.

[FAPTurbo]

Dumb idea. Cadillac is in no position to make a $100,000+ halo vehicle simply because they have to build up their 'brand equity' with more viable vehicles that the wealthier set will WANT to drive.

[aldw]

Dumb idea. Cadillac is in no position to make a $100,000+ halo vehicle simply because they have to build up their 'brand equity' with more viable vehicles that the wealthier set will WANT to drive.

Build brand equity, then build supercar, straightforward as that.

[Guest YellowJacket894]

Look up an issue of Motor Trend with a over-head shot of the Shelby GT500 on the cover (from last year or 2005). Look inside. There's my answer.

[VenSeattle]

Getting the lineup to properly compete with 3/5/7-series and C/E/S-class vehicles should be Caddy's absolute priority, then build the Cien as the best GM performance car, period.

This article doesn't provide any evidence that GM is neglecting the markets Cadillac currently competes in or should be competing in. The article does not discuss other Cadillac vehicles in development. As I said in an earlier post, this vehicle has nothing to do with the STS/DTS replacement(s) or BRX, next XLR, etc.... This article points out that GM is looking at a market that Cadillac does not compete in at the moment and is trying to figure out how to get Cadillac back into that market. It's an excellent sign that the future product line-up looks good for Cadillac.

[aldw]

This article doesn't provide any evidence that GM is neglecting the markets Cadillac currently competes in or should be competing in. The article does not discuss other Cadillac vehicles in development. As I said in an earlier post, this vehicle has nothing to do with the STS/DTS replacement(s) or BRX, next XLR, etc.... This article points out that GM is looking at a market that Cadillac does not compete in at the moment and is trying to figure out how to get Cadillac back into that market. It's an excellent sign that the future product line-up looks good for Cadillac.

That's definitely a good thing, Caddy should expand upwards in any case and the Cien would be a great harbinger for future prospects.

[ZL-1]

I didn't vote because there's a huge gap to fill before a 100K base-price, which is what I assumed you're asking here. I could see a V-Series NG DTS/STS getting closer to the XLR-V's 100K pricing, but it's quite a stretch to go further than that right now.

Edited March 19, 2007 by ZL-1

[carstar]

when the s and cl class are used for a comparison, as a Large Luxury/Performance Sedan, why on earth is a bentley mentioned??

Here:

Mercedes S-Class/BMW 7-series/Audi A8 Competitor

&

Mecedes CL/BMW 6-series Competitor.

100k isn't a base price if cadillac is going to compete with them. Try 85k. Does anyone seem to notice that cadillac is unique when it comes to price, size, and features? For example the DTS has same size and interior room of a 7-series, but dosen't offer the features that's found in a 80-90k car. CTS; the size of a 5-series, but the price of 3-series. There's so much neglect that cadillac line-up dosen't match exactly what ever euro. is offering.

Edited March 20, 2007 by carstar

[Sixty8panther]

NONE OF THE ABOVE!!!

There's one Cadillac that needs to be built, like right f***ing NOW!

The SIXTEEN.

And that''s a car that would be in a class of its OWN.

[Windy-57]

when the s and cl class are used for a comparison, as a Large Luxury/Performance Sedan, why on earth is a bentley mentioned??

Here:

Mercedes S-Class/BMW 7-series/Audi A8 Competitor

&

Mecedes CL/BMW 6-series Competitor.

100k isn't a base price if cadillac is going to compete with them. Try 85k. Does anyone seem to notice that cadillac is unique when it comes to price, size, and features? For example the DTS has same size and interior room of a 7-series, but dosen't offer the features that's found in a 80-90k car. CTS; the size of a 5-series, but the price of 3-series. There's so much neglect that cadillac line-up dosen't match exactly what ever euro. is offering.

Yeah, I probably should have had the 6-Series and CLS in there, but I think it raises an interesting question about what is Caddy's target? Why are they saying $100K if the base will be $80K? Are they not considering an S-Class level and skipping right into Bentley territory? That would be a big mistake.

Or, are they only looking at a vehicle to compete with the likes of the LS LWB and planning on raising one of the existing models (STS or DTS) to compete with the SWB models?

As you mentioned, Caddy's lineup doesn't match up with others in terms of size and the STS and DTS already have wheelbases that are pretty close to that of the LS and 7-Series; the S-Class is considerably longer.

[carstar]

Yeah, I probably should have had the 6-Series and CLS in there, but I think it raises an interesting question about what is Caddy's target? Why are they saying $100K if the base will be $80K? Are they not considering an S-Class level and skipping right into Bentley territory? That would be a big mistake.

Just to make some price facts clear

From MSN:

DTS: $41,390 - $48,760

STS: $42,250 - $74,870

7-series: $75,000 - $121,400

6-series: $73,900 - $80,900

M6: $98,600 - $104,400

S-class: $85,400 - $181,500, 181k being the AMG

CL-class: $99,900 - $144,200

Continental GT: $164,990

Continental Flying Spur: $169,990

If the idea of making the NG DTS an S-class/ 7 series fighter, barely makes any sense.

From cardata.com:

Why does it continue with a front-wheel drive layout and why does it still proffer a ride more like the creampuffs of the last century and less like the cutting-edge Mercedes and BMW sedans of the 21st Century? Why hasn’t the big DeVille been transformed into a Lexus LS430 or a Mercedes S-Class?

The answer, really, is simple. Even as Cadillac has pushed forward with innovative products, its core customers have voted with their pocketbook, and the vote tally shows that more than half of them still favor the DeVille for whatever reason.

Cadillac’s older customers may be dwindling, but they are still there in significant numbers to justify the DTS

Does anyone bother to look at the sales??

Let’s look at the vote totals. Cadillac sold 80,911 DeVilles in 2003 and 74,710 in 2004, more than half of the division’s total car sales both years. For 2005, the DeVille and the DTS together are selling at a 62,000-unit pace for the year

So let's say cadillac sold 60-70K deville/DTS for 2006 and 2007 model year.

2003 Sixteen concept... has always been more of a styling exercise, built to influence future Caddy designs

It sure did, the 08 cts took a whole bunch of the styling exercise and there is only enough for a ng DTS only. Having both a DTS and a ULS is a bit like the current S class and maybach.

[ZL-1]

100k isn't a base price if cadillac is going to compete with them. Try 85k. Does anyone seem to notice that cadillac is unique when it comes to price, size, and features? For example the DTS has same size and interior room of a 7-series, but dosen't offer the features that's found in a 80-90k car. CTS; the size of a 5-series, but the price of 3-series. There's so much neglect that cadillac line-up dosen't match exactly what ever euro. is offering.

It doesn't have to match the Euro makers offer model-by-model, but much of what you call Cadillac's "uniqueness" is actually called lack of pricing power: buyers do not percieve Cadillac to be worth paying a price premium. People think BMW and Mercedes are worth paying that premium.

[Windy-57]

It doesn't have to match the Euro makers offer model-by-model, but much of what you call Cadillac's "uniqueness" is actually called lack of pricing power: buyers do not percieve Cadillac to be worth paying a price premium. People think BMW and Mercedes are worth paying that premium.

Excellent point.

And, part of the reason they aren't seen as a being worth that premium is because of the DTS. It's hard to make a case that Caddy is of the same level as Mercedes or Lexus so long as they have a large sedan with a pricetag of $40K in their lineup. It's hard to deny that the DTS hurts the Cadillac brand image. I know that Caddy would be hurting without the sales the DTS currently brings in, which is why they can't drop it now, but I still think that dropping or changing the direction of the DTS has to be part of the long-term plan. And, this is the same reason that these sales should belong to Buick.

I understand why it doesn't make sense that the DTS would be an LS fighter, but it should either be that or be gone. And if it's gone, then they need a lot more from the STS and this range topper (only with a base of $70K-$80K as has been mentioned a few times).

[balthazar]

I don't buy that the DTS hurts Cadillac's image to any great degree. If a $25K hatchback mercedes, flagging quality, the market ker-flop of maybach, and the passing the sales torch to Cadillac last year doesn't hurt mercedes, a $45K DTS shouldn't hurt Cadillac.

What may be telling is a comparison of how much Cadillac prices vs. mercedes' prices have risen in the last 10 years; if Cadillac rose by a larger percent, and Cadillac's sales rise year after year, then clearly 'buyers perceive Cadillac to be worth paying a price premium'... (depending on your defintion of "premium").

BTW- don't forget the XLR-V @ $100K.

[pow]

BTW- don't forget the XLR-V @ $100K.

Which isn't exactly doing well... the entire XLR line-up is selling at ~150/mo, or 1,800/yr. Merc sold 3x as many $96-187K SLs in 2006.

Cadillac should focus more on the STS segment before they do an S/7/A8-competitor or an ultra-lux competitor, IMO.

[ZL-1]

The issue is the NG STS or DTS will be the 7 series competitor in content/features (CTS is 5 series-size already), although it won't compete in price. What cadillac can do is to keep raising the bar the way they did with the 2008 CTS in every single model and gradually (also eventually and hopefully) pick up some of that pricing power. I won't happen overnight and it won't happen on the 2008 CTS alone.

[ellives]

Which isn't exactly doing well... the entire XLR line-up is selling at ~150/mo, or 1,800/yr. Merc sold 3x as many $96-187K SLs in 2006.

Cadillac should focus more on the STS segment before they do an S/7/A8-competitor or an ultra-lux competitor, IMO.

It is an interesting set of sales numbers you point out. The more significant information would be the trend numbers. A one year snapshot doesn't really indicate anything. People who buy in this market segment tend to be very brand loyal. If XLR sales are going up, I would worry much. I takes a long time to get people to consider making a plunge to another brand.

I agree Cadillac needs to focus on their current lineup before expanding. I find it very typical for them to try to shotgun their product development strategy. It's not something you'd ever see ToyMotor doing. They need to learn a little bit of the GE / Jack Welch strategy of being 1 or 2 in the markets you serve or get out. When you're 3 or lower, you can't justify the R&D dollars being spent on these products. After all, the goal is to make money. It's not to build cars. People tend to lose site of this fact when they're talking about GM I think.

[turbo200]

a $25K hatchback mercedes,

that's exactly it. it's a hatchback, the cheapest MB and seen as a car for someone who wants the MB style name and "quality" but can deal with the small size and average performance. it doesn't sell in enough quantity nor is it an important segment, like say large sedan, to matter. The DTS is a big car with a big floaty image that isn't all that expensive or expressive looking; it's not a revelation on the inside, in fact it's cheaper looking and feeling than a Lexus IS costing 35k; it doesn't have the cool appeal the European cars ooze; more than anything it's viewed as a cruising vehicle. It definitely detracts from where Cadillac is trying to go. Edited March 21, 2007 by turbo200

[pow]

that's exactly it. it's a hatchback, the cheapest MB and seen as a car for someone who wants the MB style name and "quality" but can deal with the small size and average performance. it doesn't sell in enough quantity nor is it an important segment, like say large sedan, to matter. The DTS is a big car with a big floaty image that isn't all that expensive or expressive looking; it's not a revelation on the inside, in fact it's cheaper looking and feeling than a Lexus IS costing 35k; it doesn't have the cool appeal the European cars ooze; more than anything it's viewed as a cruising vehicle. It definitely detracts from where Cadillac is trying to go.

The DTS is okay if the ES350 is okay. In fact I've always said that the DTS fits in Cadillac's line-up perfectly as the big, soft faux-luxury sedan. You can't expect all its current buyers to "downgrade" to Buick, or spend twice as much on an S-class/7-series competitor.

[Windy-57]

The DTS is okay if the ES350 is okay. In fact I've always said that the DTS fits in Cadillac's line-up perfectly as the big, soft faux-luxury sedan. You can't expect all its current buyers to "downgrade" to Buick, or spend twice as much on an S-class/7-series competitor.

That's the issue. If the DTS is "faux-luxury" and it accounts for a quarter of Caddy's sales, essentially that means a quarter of Cadillac is faux-luxury. The fact that it even sells the number of vehicles it does is proof enough, exclusivity is a high commodity in those markets. Which is also why a sub CTS for the US is a bad idea.

And pointing to vehicles like the Lexus ES isn't really fair because Toyota doesn't have a near luxury brand like Buick, so they need to spread their brands further in both directions. That's why Toyota has vehicles like the Avalon (to compete with the Lucerne/300) and the Land Cruiser (to compete with the Yukon)

Edited March 22, 2007 by Windy-57

[ellives]

That's the issue. If the DTS is "faux-luxury" and it accounts for a quarter of Caddy's sales, essentially that means a quarter of Cadillac is faux-luxury. The fact that it even sells the number of vehicles it does is proof enough, exclusivity is a high commodity in those markets. Which is also why a sub CTS for the US is a bad idea.

And pointing to vehicles like the Lexus ES isn't really fair because Toyota doesn't have a near luxury brand like Buick, so they need to spread their brands further in both directions. That's why Toyota has vehicles like the Avalon (to compete with the Lucerne/300) and the Land Cruiser (to compete with the Yukon)

The Deville was not always the "faux-luxury" and I believe they should bring it back to its former glory as the flagship product. Think S or 7. To get there it needs to be RWD/AWD and much more refined that the current product. Many of the geezers buying the DTS now would flip for more money if the product demonstrated the value to support the expense. Those that won't spend the extra money can move into Buick. I'd expect Cadillac to gradually push the price up as they can justify the value and the market accepts it. If you recall when the LS first debuted, Toyota took the same approach until the market accepted the product and continues to push the price up.

[balthazar]

Deville was never the flagship- it's been the traditional entry-level car price- & heirarchy-wise (with the exception of relatively short-term lines such as the Series 61 and Calais).

I do not see validity in calling the DTS 'faux-luxury', it is far moreso luxury than the aforementioned mercedes hatchback. At least it has presense, not to mention content and materials, and is relatively close in price to the rest of the lineup.

[hyperv6]

I will take the Cadillac V12 concept if you loved the 16 you really love the V12.

I expect it will be the unanounced concept for NY.

[-Camaro-]

Which isn't exactly doing well... the entire XLR line-up is selling at ~150/mo, or 1,800/yr. Merc sold 3x as many $96-187K SLs in 2006.

Cadillac should focus more on the STS segment before they do an S/7/A8-competitor or an ultra-lux competitor, IMO.

If they are making a profit off of it, that's all that matters. The rarity will make it more appealing.