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http://www.superchevy.com/features/camaro/...tion/index.html

Death of the New Z28 Camaro

writer: Jim Campisano

photographer: Jim Campisano

No sooner did our news story come out about the supercharged 2010 Camaro Z28 in the August Super Chevy ("Bow Tie Briefs") that we got a call from a panic-stricken source at General Motors.

"The Z28 is dead. Call me back," the message stated.

A little history: In said news article we talked about the late-2010 introduction of the top-of-the-performance-ladder Camaro named Z28. The base V-8 Camaro would be the SS with a 400-plus-horsepower LS3, but for those who wanted to go hunting for Shelby GT500 and GT500KR Mustangs, there was the Z28, which we heard would have a 500-550-horse version of the CTS-V supercharged LS engine. Now we have more information on it: The engine was a supercharged 6.2-liter LSA and it made 550-horsepower. Transmission choices were to be a 6-speed automatic or 6-speed manual. It had a bigger, beefier independent rear suspension to handle the massive quantities of torque and horses.

During durability testing in Arizona this year, the car made 200 dragstrip passes, the slowest of which was a 12.40. Most of them were in the 12.0 range. The plan was to produce 5,000 of them annually--less than what Ford sells of its blown Mustangs.

And now the Z28 is supposedly dead, the victim of political correctness, rising fuel costs and economic pressures. All this happened in the last two weeks. It seems some people at GM think it's not the right time to introduce a 4,000-pound, 550-horse supercar that doesn't get 40 mpg.

Worse, we hear one executive hates the Camaro so much that he'll sign its death warrant after the first year if the car fails to sell 80,000 units (essentially, the car's break-even number).

Originally, there was a $25-million dollar development budget for the Z28, which was made into a $12 million program--no worries. Just de-content the car (less body kit fluff, fewer bells and whistles). While this might seem like a lot of money, in automotive development costs it's nothing, the proverbial drop in the bucket. It's less than some of the empty suits at GM get for their annual bonus. There's no question GM is in dire straits. Fuel costs are rising, the stock price is in the toilet and the company's hemorrhaging red ink. Truck sales are dead and so are the high profit margins that come with them. They are afraid the Z28 might hurt its corporate image further in these "green" times. But the way to battle back isn't killing the cars that people want to buy because the tree-huggers might whine. They're going to whine anyway. Besides, none of them buy Chevys or any other GM product, so who cares?

When was the last time you saw a commercial for a Cobalt, an Aveo or other high-fuel economy product? All I see here is commercials for the Toyota Yaris, Honda Fit and other Japanese brands.

Chevy's ad agency, we're told, broke the potential Camaro customer down to three segments:

1. Those who want a V-8.

2. Those who want more excitement in their drive and will get the V-6.

3. People who want a car that "shocks their social network, like Nissan 350Z buyers." Nissan 350Z?

"I didn't once in their report see how they would pull on the car's legacy, like Ford has done with the Mustang," said our source. "They don't know there's a whole market for people who want a weekend car like the Z28 and don't care that it gets 15-20 mpg."

It's time to shock these people into reality. We need to band together and save the Z28, and in doing so, we might just be saving the Camaro. We want to be able to buy a supercharged Camaro. We want to keep the legacy of Chevrolet high performance alive in a new modern automobile. We think 15-20 mpg is great and absolutely palatable compared to our 5-8 mpg hot rods. Most of all, we want to buy a Chevy Camaro, not a Ford Mustang or a Dodge Challenger. Don't force us to defect to other camps.

We did hear from another source at GM that the Z28 is not dead. He said that "every program is on the table, but, frankly, it's premature to post an obituary." He noted that the Z28 could simply be delayed six months. Let's hope. Once upon a time, in the late 1980s, the Mustang was going to be converted to a front-wheel-drive car. There were prototypes running around with Mustang badges on them. There was enough of an outrage from enthusiasts and friends of the car that Ford reconsidered and kept the Mustang rear wheel drive in 1994. (The front-drive car eventually became the Ford Probe.)

Please e-mail me at superchevy@sourceinterlink.com, put "Save The Z28" is the subject line. I'll forward all your e-mails to the appropriate people at General Motors. Together we can save this car. But we have to act quickly. There's no time to waste.

Edited by Chazman
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Worse, we hear one executive hates the Camaro so much that he'll sign its death warrant after the first year if the car fails to sell 80,000 units (essentially, the car's break-even number).

Yeah just go ahead and do that bean counting suit, you prolly killed my chances at a rwd impala. castrate the camaro and i'll cut my bowties so that they form pentastars... at least they seem to listen to enthusiast that want a little performance in affordable packages

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Yeah just go ahead and do that bean counting suit, you prolly killed my chances at a rwd impala. castrate the camaro and i'll cut my bowties so that they form pentastars... at least they seem to listen to enthusiast that want a little performance in affordable packages

Lately it seems that some castration has been going on among GM management. You can't expect a bunch of eunuchs to understand a musclecar.

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Yeah just go ahead and do that bean counting suit, you prolly killed my chances at a rwd impala. castrate the camaro and i'll cut my bowties so that they form pentastars... at least they seem to listen to enthusiast that want a little performance in affordable packages

Oh it's not a bean counter that wants the Camaro dead, this person is a car guy. Zeta will soon be among the dinosaurs when he has his way. True the Fat Lady hasn't sung yet, but she's standing at the mic, with her new gold sparkly dress on and has just spritzed her throat, and is warming up with a rousing chorus of Doh Ray Me Fa.

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Oh it's not a bean counter that wants the Camaro dead, this person is a car guy. Zeta will soon be among the dinosaurs when he has his way. True the Fat Lady hasn't sung yet, but she's standing at the mic, with her new gold sparkly dress on and has just spritzed her throat, and is warming up with a rousing chorus of Doh Ray Me Fa.

No car guy worth his salt would do that.

He and the fat lady should take a hike over to Toyota where they might do some good.

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No car guy worth his salt would do that.

He and the fat lady should take a hike over to Toyota where they might do some good.

Well it's like I've said, internally the Zeta platform and those that have supported it, have made many, many enemies along the way, but it seems more and more chickens are coming home to roost. The shoe is on the other foot now.

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Well it's like I've said, internally the Zeta platform and those that have supported it, have made many, many enemies along the way, but it seems more and more chickens are coming home to roost. The shoe is on the other foot now.

In that case it is time for a civil war.

Or a new car company.

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Well with management like that, panicking and killing off models enthusiasts have been dying for, this may be a blessing in disguise for Chrysler. They may get even more sales of the Challenger from potential Camaro buyers who were turned away because they weren't important enough to be worth having the car of their dreams sold to them. Guess whose the only other company that can offer a modern,r refined, RWD muscle car?

You know, Chrysler may go under, who knows, but at least if they die they'll go out with pride.

Dodge-Challenger-burnout.jpg

:metal:

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Well with management like that, panicking and killing off models enthusiasts have been dying for, this may be a blessing in disguise for Chrysler. They may get even more sales of the Challenger from potential Camaro buyers who were turned away because they weren't important enough to be worth having the car of their dreams sold to them. Guess whose the only other company that can offer a modern,r refined, RWD muscle car?

You know, Chrysler may go under, who knows, but at least if they die they'll go out with pride.

Dodge-Challenger-burnout.jpg

:metal:

Think we could talk them into offering one with a bed? :AH-HA_wink:

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I might get picked on for this, but I think this is the right decision. I love the Camaro, but does it really need that big, stonking engine that is already slated to be in two other vehicles: the Corvette, and the CTS-V?

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Oh it's not a bean counter that wants the Camaro dead, this person is a car guy. Zeta will soon be among the dinosaurs when he has his way. True the Fat Lady hasn't sung yet, but she's standing at the mic, with her new gold sparkly dress on and has just spritzed her throat, and is warming up with a rousing chorus of Doh Ray Me Fa.

Okay, I can see the logic of why a "car guy" may want a 2 ton Camaro, on a very lonely, underused, assembly line dead. The question is, does this "car guy" want to see new and more appropriate Camaro developed?

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I might get picked on for this, but I think this is the right decision. I love the Camaro, but does it really need that big, stonking engine that is already slated to be in two other vehicles: the Corvette, and the CTS-V?

Yes, yes it does.

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Think we could talk them into offering one with a bed? :AH-HA_wink:

You never know. There's a group of very dedicated car nuts in Chrysler, who are responsible for such cars as the Charger and Challenger. If they could make a business case for a Rampage I bet they would at least bring out a concept.

I really hope Chrysler can get it's other segment entries together, because if they put the same effort into them as the Challenger/LX cars/Ram, they can pull through.

On another note, I've been torn for a long time over which would buy/buy first: a Camaro or a Challenger. I love both, but in light of this I don't know if I could buy a car that the company which gave birth to it doesn't stand by it and show pride in it. Chrysler does.

Edited by Dodgefan
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This is the thing. Zeta should be utilized until Aplha is ready. Since Alpha is no where near ready and we have geniuses wanting to kill the last of the Zetas, there'd be no replacement for at least 4 years I bet.

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From what I remember the Camaro only got produced on the old heavy Zeta platform because GM was so open about its development from concept stage onwards. Otherwise it would have met the fate of the other Zetas. I don't think killing the highest performance model really matters anyway in the grand scheme of things. Remember, GM NEEDS MONEY.

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it is too big, clunky and heavy for mainstream utilization in the world of $4-$5/gal gas. the market will not support it.

kinda like GMT-900 is not old, but sales are tanking.

Yes, if GM had released Zeta-based models 3-4 years ago, they could have had a competitive window with Chrysler's LX platform...but in the new reality, I'm afraid the market for V8 RWD mainstream models is dying, along with BOF SUVs.

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I might get picked on for this, but I think this is the right decision. I love the Camaro, but does it really need that big, stonking engine that is already slated to be in two other vehicles: the Corvette, and the CTS-V?

cause broke jokers like me dont have 60 grand to throw on a car... thats 1/3 of a house in my woods :lol:

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That's it...I give up. Heading over to the Hospital to get a full frontal labotomy and then fitted with a pea-green metalic Prius. Sure, I will be wearing a bibb ...but I won't care that I will not be getting the Camaro I have been dreaming of since I first sat in a '69 RS/SS Convertible. Oh well, on to a world of not caring anymore!

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That's it...I give up. Heading over to the Hospital to get a full frontal labotomy and then fitted with a pea-green metalic Prius. Sure, I will be wearing a bibb ...but I won't care that I will not be getting the Camaro I have been dreaming of since I first sat in a '69 RS/SS Convertible. Oh well, on to a world of not caring anymore!

Chill with the drama..there is still going to be a convertible Camaro, and I assume it will be available in SS form with the a V8..

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WOW, So much Drama about a few comments that clearly not many here like, but until the final hammer does fall, everything is still up in the air and possible. :)

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Ya know, this may affect me... while I have a '68 Camaro project currently underway, it's not going very quickly. Basically, if I can't get this thing close to built in the next 3 years, it will be sold. And if I was to sell it, my thoughts were to use that $$ down on a top model new camaro. Hate to see the Z not make it.

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PLEASE COME IN OFF THE LEDGE!!!!!!

Here is the exact quote from Scott Settlemire on this topic.

Scott Quote

I posted this on another site -- and I'll post it here.

I am not doubting that Jim got a telephone call from someone -- but I don't know who that is -- and rumors are running rampant here in the Motor City right now -- so --if it makes you feel better -- send a note as SuperChevy is asking you to do ---

now -- that said: without further ado:

"...........Articles like this really put me up the wall -- past the pictures -- and on to the ceiling.

The Camaro (and Z28) is not Dead.

(......in my opinion, there are some in the enthusiast community that hope it does die -- esp. on certain sites -- and that confounds me........not to mention giving a dangerous boost to my blood pressure......)

I don't know how these things get life -- but let me assure EVERYONE -- that every car and truck program out there is on the table right now -- and I think I can safely say that this is the case at the other two American manufacturers -- all one has to do is to look at what's happening to new vehicle sales -- coupled with the housing meltdown -- the budget deficit -- the elections -- the Dow Jones Industrials down by a breathtaking amount -- and of course, high energy costs that are forcing the price of everything upward................

Let us take a quick walk down memory lane - shall we?

The year is 1979 -- interest rates are double digit -- energy costs and inflation are spiraling out of control.......people are "upside down" on their loans for pickups and large cars................

.....................and yet Chevrolet somehow sold 282,000 Camaros -- TEN years into a lifecycle.

Yes -- the times are different -- but I'm betting that when people see the production car -- they see the value that the car offers -- and they see the fuel economy -- we'll sell a lot of 'em.

........I said a long time ago "Have Faith" -- and that's what I'm saying once again.

So at this point give it a couple weeks and we will have more info to work with. It is too soon to jump the gun yet on this.

It is best to let this just play out.

Edited by hyperv6
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It's called Alpha! :AH-HA_wink:

I hope you aren't BS-ing us PCS. I'd be psyched about a car with Camaro styling and G37/350Z type weight (or maybe even lighter). Give it the DI 304 HP V6, and I'm there! :thumbsup:

Zeta is cool, no doubt- I (test) drove a G8 a few months back and I really thought it drove every bit as nice as my wife's new G35, but I could tell that if it were 500 lbs. less (like the G35) it would have felt a little better on a "seat of your pants" level. I actually had this feeling while I was driving around in it that GM would have been smarter to really give this car a Caddy style interior/exterior and market it as a real full size Caddy (DTS). (or just bring over the Buick Park Avenue from China). First off, they could have sold it for $50,000 - and I think it would have been a real awesome competitor for the LS460 - something GM doesn't have in the US anymore (lets face it, the DTS can't compete with the big full size, rear drive import luxury cars these days). That would have been a better use for Zeta in North America IMO.

I dunno - I'm all for a smaller rear drive modern GM car. Alpha sounds like it'll be pretty cool. I hope it happens. Maybe Zeta will stick around as a big Caddy or Buick - that would be a smart business decision. Even with CAFE/gas price issues, etc, GM could still sell a big Zeta as a Caddy or even as a Park Avenue I think.

Edited by gmcbob
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I might get picked on for this, but I think this is the right decision. I love the Camaro, but does it really need that big, stonking engine that is already slated to be in two other vehicles: the Corvette, and the CTS-V?

I totally agree. GM doesn't need the Shelby Camaro. How many of these cars could they possibly sell? And all the people moaning that it won't be built would never have bought one anyway. The Cadillac V series and Corvette have this niche market covered.

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PLEASE COME IN OFF THE LEDGE!!!!!!

Hahahaha

I think that all the time at C&G, wait and see if it's rumor/gossip/speculation or not.

I believe what I see, not what I read on the internet!

I can't picture GM building the Camaro and bailing out of a performance version. I'll just wait and see for myself.

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given its low production numbers, a blown v8 Z28 wouldn't have much effect on the CAFE number would it? Since the engine and most of the car (except maybe suspension and a few bits here and there) are off the shelf.

So in the grand scheme of things, would killing the Z28 really have that much effect on fuel economy and cost numbers?

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given its low production numbers, a blown v8 Z28 wouldn't have much effect on the CAFE number would it? Since the engine and most of the car (except maybe suspension and a few bits here and there) are off the shelf.

So in the grand scheme of things, would killing the Z28 really have that much effect on fuel economy and cost numbers?

No... It wouldn't...

This is all about the constant f*cking pissing match that seems to be ruining (/running) GM these days.

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The civil war has been going on since I 1st washed up on the beach of C&G, where you been at Willis? :smilewide:

Which is exactly why you came here.

We were the #1 GM site on the net and we were very enthusiastic about Zeta. So much so that we dedicated an entire project to it's creation.

And you volunteered yourself, or were sent to kill enthusiasm for both that program and GMNA. All for the benefit of you and your colleagues that seek promotions to OUR company.

And people wonder why I want you banned so badly. You are politicking C&G.

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The internet is a great tool... and a great weapon. There is a reason why they call these things "viral." Negativity spreads fast on the WWW and things appear more real than they actually are sometimes. Ever heard the phrase "But I heard it on TV?" I came here because I wanted to switch my thinking from foriegn to domestic. My family historically has always been GM buyers and I was told this was a GM "enthusiasts" site. A great deal of what I've seen here in the last year is negativity, one-upmanship and attempts to make those who come here to learn about GM feel ignorant and insignificant. Unfortunately, that happens in most internet communities. It is just so easy when you don't know people personally. I guess we have to look up to the top of the page and read "GM's Biggest Fans and Toughest Critics" to realize that some of the negativity has been invited.

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The internet is a great tool... and a great weapon. There is a reason why they call these things "viral." Negativity spreads fast on the WWW and things appear more real than they actually are sometimes. Ever heard the phrase "But I heard it on TV?" I came here because I wanted to switch my thinking from foriegn to domestic. My family historically has always been GM buyers and I was told this was a GM "enthusiasts" site. A great deal of what I've seen here in the last year is negativity, one-upmanship and attempts to make those who come here to learn about GM feel ignorant and insignificant. Unfortunately, that happens in most internet communities. It is just so easy when you don't know people personally. I guess we have to look up to the top of the page and read "GM's Biggest Fans and Toughest Critics" to realize that some of the negativity has been invited.

You don't get better without admitting mistakes and learning from them.

It is a lot more negative than it used to be, but times are tougher now and the company in question seems to be acting irratinal and at times downright stupid.

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Don't claim to be a teacher, that's my sister, but I thought this might be a great place to insert this...

Honey and Vinegar Link

Bottom line, instead of slamming GM, how about letting them see how sweet your honey can be (proof of a market for your desires, like the letter campaign) and they might just want to taste it. I know they must read this site, man, how depressing that must be to face ridicule each day.

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Has anyone bothered to notice that this "Z28 is Dead" rumor came a day after Dodge announced price points and options for the 2008 Challenger? Do you think that maybe the boys at GM deliberately started this story to steal from the Challenger's thunder and drum up excitement for the production Camaro? Do you think that perhaps there is a way for the boys at GM to track the Internet traffic on sites like this to demonstrate the potential marketing pool of people who REALLY want to buy a Z28 model? Content like this may be used as free survey data by GM to justify the cost and potential production units needed to really make the Z28 happen.

As far as engine choices are concerned for the different Camaro models, I always thought that the SS was supposed to have a bigger engine than the Z28. Look at the first generation engine/model choices; 302 V8 for the Z28 and 396 V8 for the SS. I know that gas prices and EPA restrictions have put a hold on a wider selection of V8s for car makers. However, I was hoping that GM would make the 5.3L block in the Truck line as a car application for the new Impala SS and Camaro platform. GM could easily have the 5.3L V8 have an output of 360 hp. That would make the the top level Camaro more desireable as a performance car. Instead of using the new 6.2L V8 Supercharged engine, there is still the ZO6 7.0L V8 for the Camaro.

One can only hope that the price of oil will come down to a reasonable level in time for the release of the Camaro. My suggestion to all those who want a high performance Camaro model should stop posting about the untimely demise of the Z28 and start siging online petitions for Congress to start drilling in ANWAR.

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Don't claim to be a teacher, that's my sister, but I thought this might be a great place to insert this...

Honey and Vinegar Link

Bottom line, instead of slamming GM, how about letting them see how sweet your honey can be (proof of a market for your desires, like the letter campaign) and they might just want to taste it. I know they must read this site, man, how depressing that must be to face ridicule each day.

Thing is, when Zeta was on and the prospects of the return to RWD for teh Implala, the G8, G8 ST, Zeta Buick,a nd premium Zeta Cadillac were around, and before GM began to panic and start canceling and not making productive decisions (or decisions at all), things began to turn egative. This was only reenforced by the constant news of GM being too busy fighting with itself, and manager's personal agendas, rather than working as a team to make a comback.

Has anyone bothered to notice that this "Z28 is Dead" rumor came a day after Dodge announced price points and options for the 2008 Challenger? Do you think that maybe the boys at GM deliberately started this story to steal from the Challenger's thunder and drum up excitement for the production Camaro? Do you think that perhaps there is a way for the boys at GM to track the Internet traffic on sites like this to demonstrate the potential marketing pool of people who REALLY want to buy a Z28 model? Content like this may be used as free survey data by GM to justify the cost and potential production units needed to really make the Z28 happen.

The logic seems bass akwards. If they wanted to steal thunder, they would officially anounce a high performance model, or release specs, or something like taht, not start a rumor of cancelation.

Edited by Dodgefan
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I think GM could really strick fear into everyone with an ultimate mustange Challanger killer.

Camero SS 2mode Hybride. This would be the best of all worlds. Killer off the line and 0-60 times with the electric motor assist and yet still have the grunt of the 6.2 engine along with higher MPG rating with Cyclinder deactivation. This would beat them all. :smilewide:

:camarosmile:

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I don't know about a hybrid Camaro...

But I can kinda see the logic in delaying/cancelling the SS. If the Economy continues its meltdown, they won't be selling very many of them.

That being said, I hope they keep the SS.

Chris

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"The logic seems bass akwards. If they wanted to steal thunder, they would officially anounce a high performance model, or release specs, or something like taht [sic], not start a rumor of cancelation."

There is a reason why its called "reverse" psychology. To have GM simply announce a high performance Z28 model means the focus stays on the Challenger in the media which will be out one year before the Camaro. In order to keep people "emotionally invested" in the existence of the Z28 Camaro, then one "threatens" its cancellation. The media has a new story to write about the drama at GM making the story about the soon-to-be-on-the-market Challenger irrelevant.

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"The logic seems bass akwards. If they wanted to steal thunder, they would officially anounce a high performance model, or release specs, or something like taht [sic], not start a rumor of cancelation."

There is a reason why its called "reverse" psychology. To have GM simply announce a high performance Z28 model means the focus stays on the Challenger in the media which will be out one year before the Camaro. In order to keep people "emotionally invested" in the existence of the Z28 Camaro, then one "threatens" its cancellation. The media has a new story to write about the drama at GM making the story about the soon-to-be-on-the-market Challenger irrelevant.

I could have sworn I saw a new red Challenger in Antioch, California last Thursday ( July 3). Are they not out on the streets? Everyone at the intersection was pointing at the car...perhaps we were all fooled and it was a 70s Challenger, thought the poportions were more modern.

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Z28 used to be below SS. I think the LS3 is plenty of motor for the Camaro, that is still 400-430 hp. Those that want more can go to the Corvette. If the Camaro with 500 hp were to cost $45-50,000 why not just get a Vette? They should worry more about keeping weight down. The base 3.5 liter pushrod V6, which they figured was unfit for the Malibu, but it's still good enough for the Camaro? I can't get too excited about a 2010 Camaro with the same V6 in the 2004 Malibu. They need something new like Ford's Ecoboost that has economy and power. The 3.6 DI engine is a good mid-range engine, although gas mileage on it isn't that great.

The 2.0 DI turbo only gets 20-21 mpg combined, that isn't good enough either, the Hyundai Genesis V8 gets 20 mpg combined.

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Z28 used to be below SS. I think the LS3 is plenty of motor for the Camaro, that is still 400-430 hp. Those that want more can go to the Corvette. If the Camaro with 500 hp were to cost $45-50,000 why not just get a Vette? They should worry more about keeping weight down. The base 3.5 liter pushrod V6, which they figured was unfit for the Malibu, but it's still good enough for the Camaro? I can't get too excited about a 2010 Camaro with the same V6 in the 2004 Malibu. They need something new like Ford's Ecoboost that has economy and power. The 3.6 DI engine is a good mid-range engine, although gas mileage on it isn't that great.

The 2.0 DI turbo only gets 20-21 mpg combined, that isn't good enough either, the Hyundai Genesis V8 gets 20 mpg combined.

Last I heard the 3.6 was the base engine for the Camaro. I don't know what reality you pull your information from, but it's not this one. Until official pecs are released, anything we haven't see regarding powertrains are just rumors.

Edited by Dodgefan
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I could have sworn I saw a new red Challenger in Antioch, California last Thursday ( July 3). Are they not out on the streets? Everyone at the intersection was pointing at the car...perhaps we were all fooled and it was a 70s Challenger, thought the poportions were more modern.

ya, they are out, been in production since may I think. actually saw one the other day while I was on my way to visit my buddy who works at Brampton.

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If the Camaro with 500 hp were to cost $45-50,000 why not just get a Vette?

apples & oranges. some people like the look/feel of a muscle car over that of a sports car.

not too mention the nostalgia, heritage of the new Camaro.

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Z28 used to be below SS. I think the LS3 is plenty of motor for the Camaro, that is still 400-430 hp. Those that want more can go to the Corvette. If the Camaro with 500 hp were to cost $45-50,000 why not just get a Vette? They should worry more about keeping weight down. The base 3.5 liter pushrod V6, which they figured was unfit for the Malibu, but it's still good enough for the Camaro? I can't get too excited about a 2010 Camaro with the same V6 in the 2004 Malibu. They need something new like Ford's Ecoboost that has economy and power. The 3.6 DI engine is a good mid-range engine, although gas mileage on it isn't that great.

The 2.0 DI turbo only gets 20-21 mpg combined, that isn't good enough either, the Hyundai Genesis V8 gets 20 mpg combined.

The Camaro is getting the 3.6 standard. Obviously people snapped up $50k GT500s when they could have had a Vette too... Different strokes for different folks.

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I like DEFELT' S idea of a two mode hybrid..., green plus power ala lexus400h.

The hybrid would automatically be good press for GM, WHERE as now as soon as A 6.2L Z28 is released there will be bad press about another "gas guzzler from GM".

They could always sneak a 6.2l type version later, well after the"good press coverage".

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As far as engine choices are concerned for the different Camaro models, I always thought that the SS was supposed to have a bigger engine than the Z28. Look at the first generation engine/model choices; 302 V8 for the Z28 and 396 V8 for the SS. I know that gas prices and EPA restrictions have put a hold on a wider selection of V8s for car makers. However, I was hoping that GM would make the 5.3L block in the Truck line as a car application for the new Impala SS and Camaro platform. GM could easily have the 5.3L V8 have an output of 360 hp. That would make the the top level Camaro more desireable as a performance car. Instead of using the new 6.2L V8 Supercharged engine, there is still the ZO6 7.0L V8 for the Camaro.

The first gen. differences between the SS and Z/28 was so much more than cubic inch displacement of the engine (and BTW the base SS engine was the 350 cid, 396 cid was optional). The first gen. SS was basically a drag race type of car, high performance engine and set up for pretty much straight line performance. The Z/28 was essentially a road race car (put into production to homologate it for SCCA TransAm Sedan Races), high revving SBC (had to be under the SCCA 305 cid limit), suspension set up for curves, body sat two inches lower than the SS even though the SS had 14" wheels and the Z/28 had 15" wheels. Totally different animals designed with different purposes in mind. I'm also not sure of what the fifth gen. Z/28 would have been, track performer or drag car, I'm feel that Chevy's purposes in this day and age are completely different than they were in '67-"69.

Clyde

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I like DEFELT' S idea of a two mode hybrid..., green plus power ala lexus400h.

The hybrid would automatically be good press for GM, WHERE as now as soon as A 6.2L Z28 is released there will be bad press about another "gas guzzler from GM".

They could always sneak a 6.2l type version later, well after the"good press coverage".

I agree about the 2 mode hybrid..

However, GM cannot let the press dictate its choices like that. Acura is going full speed ahead with a V8 sports car. The Germans are still going to build V8 luxury cars... etc...etc...

If GM allows itself to be "controlled" out of the market, then the battle against them is already won. No performance Camaro is a dumb move (Not everyone wants a Vette, just like not everyone wants a Chevrolet) If the Z28 were to flood the market with 30,000 cars, then I could see the logic of canceling it. But at 5,000 cars?!?! Really?!?! Not having a V8 in Cadillacs is suicide, especially when you're still trying to be noticed over MB and BMW, not to mention when Infiniti is beating down your door. Shutting down/eliminating all of your real trucks is ignorance when people still need them and will still buy them in pretty big numbers and the programs cost pennies to make (Compared to thing s such as... NEW SAABS that will never provide the same return)

GM is basically regulating itself into an also ran. GM is giving up. GM is doing exactly what the anti-Detroit media and loud motuhs want; they're laying on their back and taking it.

On a related note; why does the Z28 have to be a 'bling-bling' Shelby KR competitor? (ala ZR1, except in a different bracket) Why not decontent an SS, give it a bit of a performance bump to make it the fastest and most track ready car in the camaro stable and sell it that way? (ala Z06) The Z28 was NEVER meant to be a show off piece, it was meant to be a track car. I love the GT500KR as much as anyone here, but it's pretty much useless in the grand scheme of things. I can mod a GT or GT500 to go much faster for probably less money.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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Z28 used to be below SS.

If the Camaro with 500 hp were to cost $45-50,000 why not just get a Vette?

A) true but thankfully that hierarchy snafu from the 90's is fixed long live the king of the camaro hill

B) 4 people cant ride in a vette

i do agree 400+ hp is plenty enough to get anyone into trouble

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The Z/28 was essentially a road race car (put into production to homologate it for SCCA TransAm Sedan Races), high revving SBC (had to be under the SCCA 305 cid limit), suspension set up for curves, body sat two inches lower than the SS even though the SS had 14" wheels and the Z/28 had 15" wheels. Totally different animals designed with different purposes in mind. I'm also not sure of what the fifth gen. Z/28 would have been, track performer or drag car, I'm feel that Chevy's purposes in this day and age are completely different than they were in '67-"69.

Clyde

with the new camaro, mustang, and challenger all out, it would be awesome to see a revitalized trans am racing series again. only thing missing is a javelin :lol:

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I agree about the 2 mode hybrid..

However, GM cannot let the press dictate its choices like that. Acura is going full speed ahead with a V8 sports car. The Germans are still going to build V8 luxury cars... etc...etc...

If GM allows itself to be "controlled" out of the market, then the battle against them is already won. No performance Camaro is a dumb move (Not everyone wants a Vette, just like not everyone wants a Chevrolet) If the Z28 were to flood the market with 30,000 cars, then I could see the logic of canceling it. But at 5,000 cars?!?! Really?!?! Not having a V8 in Cadillacs is suicide, especially when you're still trying to be noticed over MB and BMW, not to mention when Infiniti is beating down your door. Shutting down/eliminating all of your real trucks is ignorance when people still need them and will still buy them in pretty big numbers and the programs cost pennies to make (Compared to thing s such as... NEW SAABS that will never provide the same return)

GM is basically regulating itself into an also ran. GM is giving up. GM is doing exactly what the anti-Detroit media and loud motuhs want; they're laying on their back and taking it.

On a related note; why does the Z28 have to be a 'bling-bling' Shelby KR competitor? (ala ZR1, except in a different bracket) Why not decontent an SS, give it a bit of a performance bump to make it the fastest and most track ready car in the camaro stable and sell it that way? (ala Z06) The Z28 was NEVER meant to be a show off piece, it was meant to be a track car. I love the GT500KR as much as anyone here, but it's pretty much useless in the grand scheme of things. I can mod a GT or GT500 to go much faster for probably less money.

The internet is a funny place. Anybody can post anything and some will always interpret it as the truth and some will interpret it as a lie/propaganda.

For those who are active in this forum in the link below, they know exactly who this person is. Much more reliable than some of the other employees on this site.

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showpost.p...p;postcount=183

Edited by 02ChevySS
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I learned a long time ago that just because you may work for GM or may be highly placed it does not mean you know what is going on.

GM is a big place and they don't tell everyone everything.

Edited by hyperv6
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As far as engine choices are concerned for the different Camaro models, I always thought that the SS was supposed to have a bigger engine than the Z28. Look at the first generation engine/model choices; 302 V8 for the Z28 and 396 V8 for the SS. I know that gas prices and EPA restrictions have put a hold on a wider selection of V8s for car makers. However, I was hoping that GM would make the 5.3L block in the Truck line as a car application for the new Impala SS and Camaro platform. GM could easily have the 5.3L V8 have an output of 360 hp. That would make the the top level Camaro more desireable as a performance car. Instead of using the new 6.2L V8 Supercharged engine, there is still the ZO6 7.0L V8 for the Camaro.

Ask any Camaro enthusiast which he/she would prefer a 69 Z/28 with the DZ302 or a 69 SS with and motor in a SS and guess which one they'll be more likely to choose. The Z/28 was a special option. It was something different. In the words of a man very close to the Camaro program, "Anything can be an SS but only a Camaro can be a Z/28." Don't be fooled by the 4th gens that had the SS as a modified Z28. Look at the history. The Z/28 is still special and will remain so.

That's why having the Z/28 being a special edition with more power makes sense, it goes back to the roots and meanings of the Z/28.

As for the new 6.2L Supercharged versus the 7.0L, if I remember correctly, the 6.2L is much cheaper to build. Heck, look at buying both engines aftermarket. The 6.2L supercharged is already cheaper than the 7.0L.

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I'm still a fan of my idea from a few years ago.

Chevrolet should build a whole line of performance coupes (only) under the Z moniker. Z06, ZR1, Z28 and a Z moniker Cobalt/Cruze coupe would be pretty cool and could make HUGE headway into the performance market.

Of course, I brought this idea up when GM was whoring out the SS name. Now that it takes 'a little more' to be an SS, it might not work as well.

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As it stands today the SS is the standard perfromance car for Chevy and anything with a Z will be the uber performance car. IT fits right intop a pattern that makes sense. They also finally have made the SS mean performance again and not the sitcker package as has been on some vehicles.

Just be prepared as the Camaro is going to be mosrtly Marketed as a V6 Coupe. This was the plan long before the spike in gas prices. As Scott Settlmire pointed out they need to sell the many more coupes to the people who don't care about performance such as women that want a stylish car the is fun, comfortable and affordable to drive. The 4thgen was not appealing to women ingenerl and GM left 50%+ of the market on the table.

So understand when you don't see advertising of a smokey burn out and just standard coupes this is the car they need to work on to sell/ THe SS and Z will sell not matter what as the people interested in them know what they are and what they can do.

Scott said many of the cross over people will be lost if they see an ad for just performance driving. As he pointed out that the Camaro is back to it's roots where it is not a car for everyone and not just some niche of performance. The majority of 67-69 cars were not SS/Z28 as most were small V8 or inline six Coupes.

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As it stands today the SS is the standard perfromance car for Chevy and anything with a Z will be the uber performance car. IT fits right intop a pattern that makes sense. They also finally have made the SS mean performance again and not the sitcker package as has been on some vehicles.

Just be prepared as the Camaro is going to be mosrtly Marketed as a V6 Coupe. This was the plan long before the spike in gas prices. As Scott Settlmire pointed out they need to sell the many more coupes to the people who don't care about performance such as women that want a stylish car the is fun, comfortable and affordable to drive. The 4thgen was not appealing to women ingenerl and GM left 50%+ of the market on the table.

So understand when you don't see advertising of a smokey burn out and just standard coupes this is the car they need to work on to sell/ THe SS and Z will sell not matter what as the people interested in them know what they are and what they can do.

Scott said many of the cross over people will be lost if they see an ad for just performance driving. As he pointed out that the Camaro is back to it's roots where it is not a car for everyone and not just some niche of performance. The majority of 67-69 cars were not SS/Z28 as most were small V8 or inline six Coupes.

I think that's spot on too...

I've never been one of those people who thinks every car should be V8 & RWD. I just want the OPTION of a V8 on a RWD car. As far as I'm concerned, GM should do the same thing with the G8. Make the V8 the top of the line halo car and beef up the V6 and sell the crap out of V6 equiped cars. Market it against the top Avalon, Maxima and LX cars as a "better driving, more efficient performance car" and watch them fly off of the lots. Zeta is SO MUCH MORE than a sweet V8 powertrain. :)

Now, when we start saying V8s will not be OPTIONAL equipment; that's when I get pissed.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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Autoblog often is a day late on news. I am not going to say GM may not change their mind but untill you hear it from them we need to just wait and see.

I will post again the last know statment from a GM rep working on the Camaro. FYI: Scotts statment was after the Left Lane News post on 7/11.

Originally Posted by Fbodfather

I posted this on another site -- and I'll post it here.

I am not doubting that Jim got a telephone call from someone -- but I don't know who that is -- and rumors are running rampant here in the Motor City right now -- so --if it makes you feel better -- send a note as SuperChevy is asking you to do ---

now -- that said: without further ado:

"...........Articles like this really put me up the wall -- past the pictures -- and on to the ceiling.

The Camaro (and Z28) is not Dead.

(......in my opinion, there are some in the enthusiast community that hope it does die -- esp. on certain sites -- and that confounds me........not to mention giving a dangerous boost to my blood pressure......)

I don't know how these things get life -- but let me assure EVERYONE -- that every car and truck program out there is on the table right now -- and I think I can safely say that this is the case at the other two American manufacturers -- all one has to do is to look at what's happening to new vehicle sales -- coupled with the housing meltdown -- the budget deficit -- the elections -- the Dow Jones Industrials down by a breathtaking amount -- and of course, high energy costs that are forcing the price of everything upward................

Let us take a quick walk down memory lane - shall we?

The year is 1979 -- interest rates are double digit -- energy costs and inflation are spiraling out of control.......people are "upside down" on their loans for pickups and large cars................

.....................and yet Chevrolet somehow sold 282,000 Camaros -- TEN years into a lifecycle.

Yes -- the times are different -- but I'm betting that when people see the production car -- they see the value that the car offers -- and they see the fuel economy -- we'll sell a lot of 'em.

........I said a long time ago "Have Faith" -- and that's what I'm saying once again.

Untill we hear Scott or one of the other GM people who are working on this program say different we just need to relax.

My guess at what Scott stated is the car is still on. But, I fear the price is becoming even more a factor. The Z price was getting high before we started to see prices of cars to climb and I suspect the Camaro has reached a point it is a real problem. My hunch is they are looking for ways to reduce the cost.

The Z/28 I sure will appear in some form but it may change from what was originally planned. This is just my guess based on Scott statment. I think the car is under review more than canceled?

Either way if Scott said it is not canceled yet I will wait till he says different or some other Camaro rep offically speaks.

Edited by hyperv6
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Well, really...

I mean, why do we need a super expensive Camaro anyway? Surely GM can find a better scenario for the Z/28 moniker. If people want a high priced Chevrolet show piece, they can buy a Z06 or ZR1.

ladies and gentleman of the jury i present to you:

exhibit A:

roush427mustang.jpg

exhibit B:

2008shelbycobra.jpg

exhibit C:

085414.1-lg.jpg

exhibit D for (Dodge):

2009challenger.jpg

list goes on and on. keep em down to 500 a year ala 70 boss 429 mustang just dont lose money on each one like they did then.

Edited by cletus8269
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Well, really...

I mean, why do we need a super expensive Camaro anyway? Surely GM can find a better scenario for the Z/28 moniker. If people want a high priced Chevrolet show piece, they can buy a Z06 or ZR1.

Well, maybe you don't but there are people out there willing to spend the money and get a faster Camaro.

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All this could be going on to make sure the car is not more expensive a Shelby.

Also it could be as simple as the fact GM may not build the Z in house and farm it our to some one like SLP or Saleen.

Thereis a place for theis car but you have to make it so it is cheaper than a LS3 Vette. As the price climbs the options for some serious other cars start to climb and will reduce the market.

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How about this, given today's climate?

SS: LS3

Z/28: turbo or bi-turbo 3.6L DI

I'd target both around 435-450hp. They'd obviously drive like completely different animals and appeal to different customers. Plus, performance-wise it'd be hard to choose a true "top dog".

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Not to start a SS - Z/28 debate, but I gave the Z the six because the Z for the first two generations was the small engined free revving track star while the SS was the high horsepower brute with the biggest V8 available.

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Not to start a SS - Z/28 debate, but I gave the Z the six because the Z for the first two generations was the small engined free revving track star while the SS was the high horsepower brute with the biggest V8 available.

True enough.

I wouldn't be too surprised to see this approach used on an Alpha Camaro next time around.

This gen, not so much. But, from all reports, the V6 is really something this time and could lay the groundwork for an idea like yours by gaining a really good performance rep.

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How about this, given today's climate?

SS: LS3

Z/28: turbo or bi-turbo 3.6L DI

I'd target both around 435-450hp. They'd obviously drive like completely different animals and appeal to different customers. Plus, performance-wise it'd be hard to choose a true "top dog".

Like ford did in aussie land? :) *thinking of that clip of the ford vs holden that was posted a week ago*

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