Musk Says Tesla Model 3 Owners Will Have To Pay To Use Supercharger Stations

[William Maley]

One of the key benefits of owning a Telsa is having access to the various Supercharger stations around U.S. for free. But if you're one of the 300,000-plus buyers for the Model 3, you'll have to pay to have your vehicle charged at the station.

 

“Free Supercharging fundamentally has a cost,” said Telsa CEO Elon Musk at the company's annual shareholders meeting yesterday.

 

"The obvious thing to do is decouple that from the cost of the Model 3. So it will still be very cheap, and far cheaper than gasoline, to drive long-distance with the Model 3, but it will not be free long distance for life unless you purchase that package.”

 

That package in question would give Model 3 owners the previlage of charging for free at Supercharger stations like owners of the Model S and X. Bloomberg says Musk didn't provide any more details of this package.

 

A key benefit of the Supercharger station is how fast it can charge up a Tesla vehicle. Within 30 minutes, the station will charge the battery back up to provide a range of 170 miles.

 

Source: Bloomberg

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[Suaviloquent]

I think we all fully expected this. Let's see how the pre-orders go now. 

 

But here's the deal. Electricity ain't free. So this is a sound business decision. But will people be taken aback? Certainly. But then you look at where the automaker is, it simply cannot afford any mistakes or unnecessary costs. at this time.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think he had to move to this cost model eventually.  I bet eventually even the Model S and X will start to have to charge for it too.

 

The problem is one of assholes... people who park their Tesla at a supercharger station all day and clog up the system. 

[El Kabong]

Horrible optics all the same. The high-rollers roll for free while the plebes pay to play?

[Suaviloquent]

Yeah, and GM will suddenly start expanding the the electric infrastructure which Mary Barra went on record to say GM isn't interested in supporting fast charging for its cars at this time.

 

Yep, that's the rule of every industry. Look at personal finance/credit - people with modest means have many times been forced to use payday loans with tremendous EAR's. Poor people get shafted everywhere. Cheap GM cars once were cost cutted in such a simple place - we all know where. Ford with the Pinto did a cost/benefit analysis by placing a value on the lives of people (the cost of settling litigation versus the cost of re-engineering the placement of the fuel tank. Toyota in a treacherous bout of Japanese greed started to fall in love with its products that had poor quality.  

 

It's the same as luxury buyers getting free car detailing and other perks of paying high premiums.

 

Or are you going to say that suddenly GM has the means to pay for Bolt owner's charging in their own specific charging stations?

 

Most likely this way...Tesla can get some or all of the cost recovery of the supercharger network and expand it even more rapidly.

 

See that's the thing... I was talking about this even before this announcement was made. Electric cars will have to become viable, and that means doing things right - which aren't always favored by all.

[G. David Felt]

No Big Deal as electricity is cheap here, so I am more than happy to charge my bolt at home or at the thousands of 240v and DC fast charge stations around washington state.

[Drew Dowdell]

Horrible optics all the same. The high-rollers roll for free while the plebes pay to play?

 

The high rollers probably spent enough to buy two Model-3s... so why wouldn't it come with?

Equus buyers get a "free" iPad. while genesis 3.8 sedan buyers get nothing.

[Drew Dowdell]

And honestly, if I were buying a Model-3, I'm probably not going to worry about unfettered access to the Supercharger network.  Most of the time, I'll be driving within range of my house anyway, so I would just fill up at home.  The few times a year I need to take it on a long trip, I would pay the fee to use the Supercharger.... no biggie.   It's still cheaper than gas in the long run, and in that scenario, probably cheaper than paying the unlimited use supercharger fee. 

[surreal1272]

Horrible optics all the same. The high-rollers roll for free while the plebes pay to play?

This is not a new concept, especially in the automotive world, and is not that big of a deal.

[Suaviloquent]

Suddenly Tesla making a very good choice, something that will keep them going is to be frowned upon, because it changes the vision, and it proves that they have to be humble to themselves and be honest to their future, more mainstream customers.

 

Well we all want the world to improve, but many of us don't want it to change.

 

It's unbearably naive to think this is yet another occasion of the rich preying on the masses. Their purchases of the Roadster and S, and X are what got this automaker here. The willing shareholders eventually want profits, and the company has to grow up, but not compromise itself. And I don't expect the free superchargers to last for anyone. Part of the problem is that again, what was meant for occasional use suffered the tragedies of the commons. Free-for-all means a destruction of a resource for all to enjoy in the sparing moments. Sure, you had to pay to play, when have we not? 

 

We all cry about the price of gas, yet suck it up and pump it, shove it into our vehicles

[regfootball]

first step to adding taxes to vehicle charging to make up what is lost in gas tax, and to be honest, that is fair, as long as the amount is fair.  People need to realize once electrics take off, the taxation shift will probably follow.  Again, fair in concept, if you want the roads still.  Tesla doing this would be a great way to test the acceptance of that tax replacement.

[smk4565]

i think they could charge for Supercharger use on every car, and probably eventually they will.  Gas stations aren't giving away unlimited free gas, if it costs $5 at the Supercharger station to fill up no big deal.  And you can charge at home.

[hyperv6]

Yes the frosting is off the cake. I should make up Tesla Shirts that say A$$, Grass or Electric no one rides free. 

 

The free is going to go away as Tesla has to start making money and these add on items are where it is at. 

 

The S model people paid for the Superchargers in the price of the car and just never knew it. Nothing in life is free and if it is then odds are no one wants it like Pickeled Herring. 

 

Tesla is in a bind. They have put out billions and not yet really seen much return on the investment and even the 3 is not going to be the cheap car that it was made out to be. Yes it will be cheaper than a S but not Cheap as in Bolt Cheap with all the options. People tend to not understand the Bolt comes with most everything while the Elon basement price is going to be bare bones. Even he said $35K is not going to be the price by the time it arrives. 

He went on a media blitz again this week promising people to Mars by 2025 and that the three styling would be done in 3 weeks? Generally even GM has the Show car done before they show it.  I figure he will proclaim himself Tony Stark next. 

 

For growth now Tesla is going to be like a car trying to go faster. The First 100 MPH is easy but the next comes at x to the third power and the next 100 MPH is x to the sixth power. Unlike his rivals he has nothing else paying the bills but brain washed investors and risk taking speculators that will grow tires at some point if they do not see a return. If they do not get this return they will bail fast to make their own return. 

 

Look for free superchargers to go away and free over the air updates to vanish. I expect they will sell packages with the cars to where you can get them for free if you pay up front. Tesla may be different in some ways but Options are still the place all makers including Tesla make money. 

 

The key to the Superchargers is they are more plentiful than any other charging system. If you plan to travel away from home they are one way to get there. Other wise between the oceans there are few other options and will be few moving forward for a good while as so little investment is going on in charging stations in most areas. In Ohio there are very few options and we are one of the most auto populated areas in the country. There are just not enough cars to make it a good investment yet as you will have to ride out the time till they become more common. Also you have to pray that there would be no other breakthroughs that may move the auto in another direction. 

 

Better investment in the cars is only half the battle the other in going to be the infrastructure. Musk was doing well to start this but it has slowed as his money was going else where in Tesla. If you are on the west coast you are golden in most areas but else where no so much. Local use is fine but trips are out for many especially in many areas where there is no plug in's. 

 

I think this will help with GM and the Bolt as it is mostly considered a commuter car. Also I am sure they will offer charging at all their dealers like they have with the Volt. Not a pure solution but a good use of too many dealers. 

Edited June 4, 2016 by hyperv6

[oldshurst442]

In the history of oil and gasoline...

 

When was it ever "free" for ANYBODY, ANYWHERE on the PLANET to fill up for home heating or as automobile fuel?

 

A dozen or so of car dealerships in the Montreal area spanning different manufactures from  GM to Mercedes Benz(yes even Mercedes) all have had special offers in offering free gas for a year on a purchase of a new car the last couple years, but other than that....when was oil and gasoline offered for free for a good amount of time from a manufacturer or home builder ever?

 

We could say that Tesla Model S owners actually did pay for that in the price of the car....because nothing in life is free.

 

NO SHYTE!!!!!

 

"Nothing in life is free" is such a general statement it aint even funny!!!!

Even in death....I should know....I just finished with all that red tape in burying my mom...and although I knew about it before....a just got reacquainted with the fact that death is big business....oh....and I still have to file her taxes next year too for the 2 months she was alive in 2016....so as we were saying...

 

Nothing in life is free....

 

Tesla still has the electricity  bills to pay from the electricity service providers that provide the electricity...because we sure as hell know the electricity service providers arent giving the electricity they produce for free as that production also costs money...   

Tesla is bleeding money with the infrastructure they are building and  with the electricity they are providing....either in battery production form  or supercharging form....

 

So....we whine that Tesla is losing money...

and we whine beause Tesla is gonna charge for usage....as it should....

 

Boy...Tesla could never win with you folk....

 

 

PS: To think that a product or service is actually free....no cost or no charge...is naive...

Somewhere down the line...somebody is fitting the bill...somehow....

 

That Model S owners continue recharging without the hassles of pay as you play is PHENOMENAL...

It will not last...

 

Another general statement:

 

NOTHING LASTS FOREVER!!!

 

To think otherwise...is also naive....

Edited June 4, 2016 by oldshurst442

[regfootball]

Keep in mind also. Electricity has gone up a lot in last 8 years or so. For fueling a car it is still 'cheap' but once electrics take more hold, now the price of your electricity will go up at break neck rates. Over time the goal will be to test consumers limits for how much they can or will pay to fuel their cars. Elec prices will rise so that any price advantage for car fuel vs gas will minimize or go away. And all the extra demand means you'll get stuck paying those astronomical rates to plug in things at home then too.

It's still cheap now. Enjoy it while

It lasts. Like anything people 'need' with controlled distribution it will skyrocket and go through the roof since you don't buy free market electricity.

Edited June 4, 2016 by regfootball

[Drew Dowdell]

Supercharging was never "free".  It was included with the price of the Model S. Keep in mind that early base model Model-S did not have access to supercharging either, you had to pay a $2,500 upgrade fee to either upgrade your base Model-S or pay for the more expensive trim-line to the tune of $15k or more. 

 

Most Supercharger stations have solar generation, so the cost of the actual electric commodity is really cheap to Tesla. (They sell electricity the utility when cars aren't charging, they buy electricity from the utility at night).

 

Even still, at household rates, it costs about a penny a mile to "fill up" a Tesla.  At those rates, would cost Tesla about $2.60 per fill-up if a P90D rolls in with 0 miles left of range. A 60KW car (range = 208 miles) with the $2,500 Supercharger upgrade would cost Tesla about $2.08 to fill from zero.  That means a 60KW Model-S owner would have to visit the supercharger 1,202 times, filling up from zero each and every time, before Tesla was out of the money on the electricity cost.  Mind you, that's at household rates which Tesla probably pays less than.

 

The big cost to Tesla is in the building of the supercharger stations... but once those are amortized out, the remaining upkeep and electricity costs are minimal. 

 

Assuming the Model-3  (Why isn't it the Model-4 btw? Don't we count the roadster?) is a 60KW car, they could charge $5 to fill it up at a super charger station and it would be profitable for them.

[Drew Dowdell]

Keep in mind also. Electricity has gone up a lot in last 8 years or so. For fueling a car it is still 'cheap' but once electrics take more hold, now the price of your electricity will go up at break neck rates. Over time the goal will be to test consumers limits for how much they can or will pay to fuel their cars. Elec prices will rise so that any price advantage for car fuel vs gas will minimize or go away. And all the extra demand means you'll get stuck paying those astronomical rates to plug in things at home then too.

It's still cheap now. Enjoy it while

It lasts. Like anything people 'need' with controlled distribution it will skyrocket and go through the roof since you don't buy free market electricity.

 

False - Your local utility may have raised rates on you, but on average, the price of electricity has gone up 5 cents a kWh since 2001. (7c/kWh in 2001, 12c/kWh 2016).  That's a third of a penny per kWh per year over 15 years..... not exactly soaring rates.

 

Half the states have free(er) market electricity. There are over 250 energy companies operating and competing in Texas.  In just my zip code I have 91 different energy plans available to me through a multitude of different companies.  My current plan is a 100% wind generation supplier who is cheaper than coal.

 

If you don't have a competitive energy market in your state, write your state representatives. 

[G. David Felt]

Washington State only has PSE or Puget Sound Energy for the state supplying electricity and I am fine with that as is the bulk of the state. WHY you ask, because we have some of the cheapest if not cheapest electricity in the nation. All our power is Hydro, Wind and Solar created. 

 

Total cost ranks us as 50th in the nation as a total cost today in 2016 per kWh is now 8.53 cents.

 

Comparisons of years past:

 

2016 - 8.53 cents per kWh

2014 - 7.15

2012 - 6.94

2010 - 6.66

2008 - 6.55

2006 - 6.14

2004 - 5.80

2002 - 5.88

2000 - 4.41

1998 - 4.03

 

I you want to see your own state historical trend, check here as I found NE keeps it simple and easy to read all the reports comparing every state since 1998.

 

http://www.neo.ne.gov/statshtml/204_archive.htm 

 

Yes I choose to jump every 2 years on the rates, but as you can see except in 2002 when it jumped up before falling back and this was to pay for dismantling / retiring the loan nuclear reactor they had here in washington.

 

Based on 1200 miles a month driving a BOLT, my cost will be $28 dollars a month to fuel the BOLT. This along with a number of other benefits is why my wife told me she wants the BOLT when it comes out this fall.

 

Even if they double the electric rate, this will still be a huge savings compared to the roughly $400 a month I pay for petrol for my Trailblazer SS that she drives daily.

[Drew Dowdell]

"Doubling of electric rates" sounds like a lot... but it really isn't when you consider that rather minuscule increase is over 15 years.   I'll also note that those rates probably don't include delivery, which is a separate charge.

 

1000kwH of electricity would cost you $40.30 in generation in 2000 and $85.30 today. It works out to be a yearly increase of $33.75 per year over 16 years.  I just can't get excited about that.   If only everything else increased in price at such a slow pace. 

 

So add an electric car to the household.. most people report their electric bill increasing by $25 to $35 a month, but their gasoline bills plummet, sometimes to zero. Friends of mine, one of whom is an Editor at Cars.com, are on their second Volt lease. They buy gas every three months and reported an electric bill increase of $30 a month.  They traded in an old Pathfinder that was costing them $400 a month just to fuel.  

 

It was simple math for them.  Volt Lease + Electricity Bill Increase < Pathfinder Fuel costs.

 

Even if electricity rates doubled again... not over 15 years, but next year.... you're looking at $60 a month to run an EV.   The math still works. 

[Suaviloquent]

That's precluding inflation as well.

[hyperv6]

Is electric a traded and marketed commodity? Yes

The supply and demand controls the price? Yes 

 

The more we move to all electric means will drive up demand? Yes

 

The supply is growing at a slower rate than demand? Yes. 

 

What happens when demand out strips supply prices go up. 

Just as the oil markets were created in the 70's and oil became a traded commodity we will see similar actions with electric moving forward. It will matter little where it comes from as market will determine the cost. Electric companies buy and sell electric all the time. 

 

Just as oil America uses little from the middle east as only a couple east coast states use oil from the opec countries. But price of the market is driven buy all markets and the demands and supplies of oil globally. 

Electric is this way now but to a smaller degree. You add more and more demand on the market and slow growth of supply the prices will continue to rise no matter if you get it from coal, hydro, nuke, sun or wind. 

 

Drew they may tell you all of yours is wind driven but it is the same crap in the line everyone else is getting. As you know the line to your house is not directly connected to a wind mill. You may be paying a supplier that makes their power that way but yours may be coming from a coal plant on the Ohio River just as all your neighbors do. 

 

The free market for energy is a two edged sword. You may get by on cheaper energy but you also run the real risk of suppliers controlling the markets globally and raising rates for everyone. 

I really expect in the end there is not going to be any cheap energy utopia as there is too much money to be made globally. Also add in the power factor as the countries with power will hold global dominance. The ones to have large cheap supplies will be able to make things cheaper and sell it to those of us who have regulated ourselves out of the market. 

 

The redistribution of wealth is all very real and green energy is taking down the old players as others like India and China are taking full advantage of now regulating themselves. 

This is a very big geo political topic that is much more than could be covered here. 

The long and the short of it. I do not expect ownership of an electric car in the long run to save me much money in the future. Nothing is free or cheap anymore and it will only get worse. We used to have free TV gone, Free Radio now they have ways to charge you for that. Even free air to fill your tires is now more a memory. 

 

Things will continue to improve our lives but there will always be a larger price tag along with it. 

 

Hell I just bought a new $3,000 fridge but it is so efficient that the new models will not last 10-15 years anymore. The damn thing will do just about anything you want but again a price to pay is no cheaper in the long run over my nearly 40 year old unit that is still working fine. I plan to keep it as you just can't buy them like that anymore as it works great but just does not match the new kitchen we are putting in. 

[G. David Felt]

Electricity in Washington state is heavily regulated and increases are only allowed under mandated voting by a board in our capital. One reason probably that our rates have stayed so low but also we do have an abundance of the 3 natural green energies that helps to keep things low and a statewide attitude of doing everything green.

 

In washington state you also have to have Garbage, yard/food waste and recycling pickup weekly. As such all of waste management trucks are CNG here.

 

Just looked at my most current BI-Monthly PUD bill from PSE. I used 1788 KWH at a rate of .09437 per KWH which came out to $168.73 plus the tax of $10.12 for a bill of $178.85 for 2 months or $89.425 per month. So if I get a BOLT and add the $28 per month to my electric bill but stop spending $400 a month on fuel even with the car payment and insurance, I still come out ahead.

[Suaviloquent]

Yup. With proper incentives to go net energy neutral or positive - you know, you don't need to ever upgrade your equipment for a long time, because vehicles and appliances will only get more efficient w/ energy.

 

A distributed, renewable energy source is very good long term. Even if it's expensive at first. Solar is getting better every year.

[regfootball]

 

Keep in mind also. Electricity has gone up a lot in last 8 years or so. For fueling a car it is still 'cheap' but once electrics take more hold, now the price of your electricity will go up at break neck rates. Over time the goal will be to test consumers limits for how much they can or will pay to fuel their cars. Elec prices will rise so that any price advantage for car fuel vs gas will minimize or go away. And all the extra demand means you'll get stuck paying those astronomical rates to plug in things at home then too.

It's still cheap now. Enjoy it while

It lasts. Like anything people 'need' with controlled distribution it will skyrocket and go through the roof since you don't buy free market electricity.

 

False - Your local utility may have raised rates on you, but on average, the price of electricity has gone up 5 cents a kWh since 2001. (7c/kWh in 2001, 12c/kWh 2016).  That's a third of a penny per kWh per year over 15 years..... not exactly soaring rates.

 

Half the states have free(er) market electricity. There are over 250 energy companies operating and competing in Texas.  In just my zip code I have 91 different energy plans available to me through a multitude of different companies.  My current plan is a 100% wind generation supplier who is cheaper than coal.

 

If you don't have a competitive energy market in your state, write your state representatives. 

 

Minnesota.  so, no, its not been fair.  My utility is a city utility.  I have no idea where they are getting their power from, but i have only one choice from where to get it.  City has a monopoly on me and renewable energy legislation and such drove up electric prices more than the national average.

[regfootball]

Is electric a traded and marketed commodity? Yes

The supply and demand controls the price? Yes 

 

The more we move to all electric means will drive up demand? Yes

 

The supply is growing at a slower rate than demand? Yes. 

 

What happens when demand out strips supply prices go up. 

Just as the oil markets were created in the 70's and oil became a traded commodity we will see similar actions with electric moving forward. It will matter little where it comes from as market will determine the cost. Electric companies buy and sell electric all the time. 

 

Just as oil America uses little from the middle east as only a couple east coast states use oil from the opec countries. But price of the market is driven buy all markets and the demands and supplies of oil globally. 

Electric is this way now but to a smaller degree. You add more and more demand on the market and slow growth of supply the prices will continue to rise no matter if you get it from coal, hydro, nuke, sun or wind. 

 

Drew they may tell you all of yours is wind driven but it is the same crap in the line everyone else is getting. As you know the line to your house is not directly connected to a wind mill. You may be paying a supplier that makes their power that way but yours may be coming from a coal plant on the Ohio River just as all your neighbors do. 

 

The free market for energy is a two edged sword. You may get by on cheaper energy but you also run the real risk of suppliers controlling the markets globally and raising rates for everyone. 

I really expect in the end there is not going to be any cheap energy utopia as there is too much money to be made globally. Also add in the power factor as the countries with power will hold global dominance. The ones to have large cheap supplies will be able to make things cheaper and sell it to those of us who have regulated ourselves out of the market. 

 

The redistribution of wealth is all very real and green energy is taking down the old players as others like India and China are taking full advantage of now regulating themselves. 

This is a very big geo political topic that is much more than could be covered here. 

The long and the short of it. I do not expect ownership of an electric car in the long run to save me much money in the future. Nothing is free or cheap anymore and it will only get worse. We used to have free TV gone, Free Radio now they have ways to charge you for that. Even free air to fill your tires is now more a memory. 

 

Things will continue to improve our lives but there will always be a larger price tag along with it. 

 

Hell I just bought a new $3,000 fridge but it is so efficient that the new models will not last 10-15 years anymore. The damn thing will do just about anything you want but again a price to pay is no cheaper in the long run over my nearly 40 year old unit that is still working fine. I plan to keep it as you just can't buy them like that anymore as it works great but just does not match the new kitchen we are putting in. 

I had to LOL.  TV aint free.....we pay for cable.  (and netflix and hulu which we don't use much), radio ain't free.....I have XM in both vehicles.......LOL

 

I test drove a 2017 Volt today I'll write that up, so its interesting to talk real numbers of cost to run.  

 

My take is on this the ominous take though.  The current paradigm is that 'the man' gets a certain percent of your net income every month for gasoline.  Every person is different, and gas prices fluctuate, but for the sake of argument lets say a lot of people spend 200 to 400 bucks a month on gas when its like 3 bucks or more a gallon.  Take that one step further and for some people that could be 5-10% of their monthly net income goes for gasoline.

 

RIGHT NOW, electric may not come close to that, but THE MAN will find a way to cut into your wallet the same percent over time.  Demand for electric will go up, and a combination of real costs needed to pay for increased power generation will be one thing, but pure common greed of charging more for something everyone 'needs' will push that price up more.  It's basically going to come down to pushing the limits of everyones wallet, they will push the price of the power as high as they can because they know people can bear it now.  Somehow over time, TCO will morph out to be the same.  Maybe the vehicle will cost more, maybe the insurance will, maybe the fuel will.  But i tend to agree with hyper, i don't look to much in the way of the savings argument over time.  So enjoy the cheap running costs for maybe what, 10 years or so.  Once we are all latched to the outlet, the savings will become less real. 

[Suaviloquent]

If govts are rational they will charge a tax based on miles driven. it's really the only other fair alternative to gasoline consumed. As vehicles get away from gas or diesel, then it's really the only fair way.

 

Charging more for electricity because of cars would be dumb. Because electricity isn't tied to one specific use.

 

Eventually solar will be a very feasible for many people. It already is for people who can take the immediate hit to the wallet, but are still middle-class with modest lifestyle.

[hyperv6]

 

Is electric a traded and marketed commodity? Yes

The supply and demand controls the price? Yes 

 

The more we move to all electric means will drive up demand? Yes

 

The supply is growing at a slower rate than demand? Yes. 

 

What happens when demand out strips supply prices go up. 

Just as the oil markets were created in the 70's and oil became a traded commodity we will see similar actions with electric moving forward. It will matter little where it comes from as market will determine the cost. Electric companies buy and sell electric all the time. 

 

Just as oil America uses little from the middle east as only a couple east coast states use oil from the opec countries. But price of the market is driven buy all markets and the demands and supplies of oil globally. 

Electric is this way now but to a smaller degree. You add more and more demand on the market and slow growth of supply the prices will continue to rise no matter if you get it from coal, hydro, nuke, sun or wind. 

 

Drew they may tell you all of yours is wind driven but it is the same crap in the line everyone else is getting. As you know the line to your house is not directly connected to a wind mill. You may be paying a supplier that makes their power that way but yours may be coming from a coal plant on the Ohio River just as all your neighbors do. 

 

The free market for energy is a two edged sword. You may get by on cheaper energy but you also run the real risk of suppliers controlling the markets globally and raising rates for everyone. 

I really expect in the end there is not going to be any cheap energy utopia as there is too much money to be made globally. Also add in the power factor as the countries with power will hold global dominance. The ones to have large cheap supplies will be able to make things cheaper and sell it to those of us who have regulated ourselves out of the market. 

 

The redistribution of wealth is all very real and green energy is taking down the old players as others like India and China are taking full advantage of now regulating themselves. 

This is a very big geo political topic that is much more than could be covered here. 

The long and the short of it. I do not expect ownership of an electric car in the long run to save me much money in the future. Nothing is free or cheap anymore and it will only get worse. We used to have free TV gone, Free Radio now they have ways to charge you for that. Even free air to fill your tires is now more a memory. 

 

Things will continue to improve our lives but there will always be a larger price tag along with it. 

 

Hell I just bought a new $3,000 fridge but it is so efficient that the new models will not last 10-15 years anymore. The damn thing will do just about anything you want but again a price to pay is no cheaper in the long run over my nearly 40 year old unit that is still working fine. I plan to keep it as you just can't buy them like that anymore as it works great but just does not match the new kitchen we are putting in. 

I had to LOL.  TV aint free.....we pay for cable.  (and netflix and hulu which we don't use much), radio ain't free.....I have XM in both vehicles.......LOL

 

I test drove a 2017 Volt today I'll write that up, so its interesting to talk real numbers of cost to run.  

 

My take is on this the ominous take though.  The current paradigm is that 'the man' gets a certain percent of your net income every month for gasoline.  Every person is different, and gas prices fluctuate, but for the sake of argument lets say a lot of people spend 200 to 400 bucks a month on gas when its like 3 bucks or more a gallon.  Take that one step further and for some people that could be 5-10% of their monthly net income goes for gasoline.

 

RIGHT NOW, electric may not come close to that, but THE MAN will find a way to cut into your wallet the same percent over time.  Demand for electric will go up, and a combination of real costs needed to pay for increased power generation will be one thing, but pure common greed of charging more for something everyone 'needs' will push that price up more.  It's basically going to come down to pushing the limits of everyones wallet, they will push the price of the power as high as they can because they know people can bear it now.  Somehow over time, TCO will morph out to be the same.  Maybe the vehicle will cost more, maybe the insurance will, maybe the fuel will.  But i tend to agree with hyper, i don't look to much in the way of the savings argument over time.  So enjoy the cheap running costs for maybe what, 10 years or so.  Once we are all latched to the outlet, the savings will become less real. 

 

 

Exactly the price of electricity will find a way to go up as demand grows. You can figure if cars go more to electric they will not just let the price sit there as in a capitalistic system they will raise the price. Be it going to regulators to demand higher rates to upgrade systems and also the buying and selling of power between companies. 

 

Also do not for get Uncle Sam. He is losing out on gas tax money and they are already putting into place systems to tax you by the mile. Yes they will get you per mile. Now consider that the largest part of gas prices are state and federal taxes now. You can figure your Electric car operation cost will rise just due to the taxes alone. 

 

Life ain't free and they will find a way to charge you for just about anything anymore. 

 

Sure there will be some odd ball with his own wind mill pissing off the neighbors but powering his car this way. They will replace the guys running on Mc Donalds fry oil. 

 

I expect battery replacement will not ever be cheap as if your battery dies the car will be worn and out dated and would it be worth the replacement? 

 

I see electric cars as being much like lap tops and cell phones. Most will hold little value getting old as they will be the old models no one wants as the ranges will be shorter and the technology will be very out dated in 5-10 years. Like now many lap tops the batter cost more than it is worth to replace in some lap tops. You can put a new battery in but the model is old slow and some times not willing to work with some new operating systems. 

 

Planned obsolescence will really take hold here. 

 

In the end the operation cost may still be a little better but as a whole I expect them to be about where the market is now. Companies and the government are not going to lose the income they have now and will find ways to make sure you still pay the load.  

 

[hyperv6]

Electricity in Washington state is heavily regulated and increases are only allowed under mandated voting by a board in our capital. One reason probably that our rates have stayed so low but also we do have an abundance of the 3 natural green energies that helps to keep things low and a statewide attitude of doing everything green.

 

In washington state you also have to have Garbage, yard/food waste and recycling pickup weekly. As such all of waste management trucks are CNG here.

 

Just looked at my most current BI-Monthly PUD bill from PSE. I used 1788 KWH at a rate of .09437 per KWH which came out to $168.73 plus the tax of $10.12 for a bill of $178.85 for 2 months or $89.425 per month. So if I get a BOLT and add the $28 per month to my electric bill but stop spending $400 a month on fuel even with the car payment and insurance, I still come out ahead.

 

Just wait till the government starts to charge you by the mile on the taxes they are losing on fuel now. Higher MPG and electrics have them all scrambling to take the tax by the mile. Also factor in the greatest cost in Fuel now is state and federal taxes and that is not going to go away. 

 

What about areas that have electric issues like in LA. In heat waves there are brown outs now what will they do when everyone starts plugging cars in? They are way behind on everything and solar and wind is not going to do it alone. What about the damns being torn down and not replaced? 

[G. David Felt]

 

Electricity in Washington state is heavily regulated and increases are only allowed under mandated voting by a board in our capital. One reason probably that our rates have stayed so low but also we do have an abundance of the 3 natural green energies that helps to keep things low and a statewide attitude of doing everything green.

 

In washington state you also have to have Garbage, yard/food waste and recycling pickup weekly. As such all of waste management trucks are CNG here.

 

Just looked at my most current BI-Monthly PUD bill from PSE. I used 1788 KWH at a rate of .09437 per KWH which came out to $168.73 plus the tax of $10.12 for a bill of $178.85 for 2 months or $89.425 per month. So if I get a BOLT and add the $28 per month to my electric bill but stop spending $400 a month on fuel even with the car payment and insurance, I still come out ahead.

 

Just wait till the government starts to charge you by the mile on the taxes they are losing on fuel now. Higher MPG and electrics have them all scrambling to take the tax by the mile. Also factor in the greatest cost in Fuel now is state and federal taxes and that is not going to go away. 

 

What about areas that have electric issues like in LA. In heat waves there are brown outs now what will they do when everyone starts plugging cars in? They are way behind on everything and solar and wind is not going to do it alone. What about the damns being torn down and not replaced? 

 

We tore down 2 dams that were not efficient or worth it and gained more in releasing the river and salmon, animals etc. Then upgraded the big dams on the columbia and double the power output which not only covered the loss of the little power from the two old dams but gave so much more to be sold on the market since Washington has a surplus. 

 

My understanding is one of the biggest buyers of power is california and they buy all the surplus washington makes and still cannot get enough. Seems lots of wasted electric use. Yes people would hate to have a darker vegas strip but we could save tons of power if they did not waste so much on light shows.

[balthazar]

• Life ain't free and they will find a way to charge you for just about anything anymore. 

 

• I see electric cars as being much like lap tops and cell phones. Most will hold little value getting old as they will be the old models no one wants as the ranges will be shorter and the technology will be very out dated in 5-10 years.  

Planned obsolescence will really take hold here. 

While I agree with the first statement above, unless manufacturers POINTEDLY install OBVIOUS obsolescence tech, the fact that the vehicle is powered electrically should not incite mass 'this is outdated, gotta get a new one' mentality in the market. Phones incorporate a LOT of fleeting tech & apps which yes, are subject to superficial judgement, but these types of features in vehicles are pretty much independent of the power plant propelling such. Phonesa re also a HELLUVA lot more affordable than cars- most people don't shoulder a loan to own one.

 

Even subsequent generations of EVs that have improved range still should not see mass incentive to upgrade… this is in the same vein as IC vehicles' MPG improvement in subsequent gens. It's not usually enough to cause a trade- the costs are too steep for most consumers.

[surreal1272]

Electricity in Washington state is heavily regulated and increases are only allowed under mandated voting by a board in our capital. One reason probably that our rates have stayed so low but also we do have an abundance of the 3 natural green energies that helps to keep things low and a statewide attitude of doing everything green.

 

In washington state you also have to have Garbage, yard/food waste and recycling pickup weekly. As such all of waste management trucks are CNG here.

 

Just looked at my most current BI-Monthly PUD bill from PSE. I used 1788 KWH at a rate of .09437 per KWH which came out to $168.73 plus the tax of $10.12 for a bill of $178.85 for 2 months or $89.425 per month. So if I get a BOLT and add the $28 per month to my electric bill but stop spending $400 a month on fuel even with the car payment and insurance, I still come out ahead.

 

Just wait till the government starts to charge you by the mile on the taxes they are losing on fuel now. Higher MPG and electrics have them all scrambling to take the tax by the mile. Also factor in the greatest cost in Fuel now is state and federal taxes and that is not going to go away. 

 

What about areas that have electric issues like in LA. In heat waves there are brown outs now what will they do when everyone starts plugging cars in? They are way behind on everything and solar and wind is not going to do it alone. What about the damns being torn down and not replaced?

The funny thing is that you seem to think that the current fossil fuel/oil situation is a bed of roses and not every bit as bad as this doom and gloom you cast over electric cars.

[balthazar]

I am certainly intrigued by the possibility someone would use a vintage car & simply disconnect the speedometer cable for long periods, thus ducking mileage tax.

[Suaviloquent]

No, they'll charge per mile for registered EV's and raise gas tax anyways.

 

Some states will differ.

 

But I think insurance itself in the future will require mileage tracking. Some already do that, or offer plans that do.

[G. David Felt]

Washington state like Oregon has a test in place right now on paying mileage rather than gas tax. Or in this case you have to submit for those on the Mileage tax a request for refund of the gas tax. Right now I think the Mileage tax is a far better way to go and equal for all regardless of the type of auto you use as everyone pays a fair share for the roads.

 

Commercial is a higher rate for heavier trucks, but other wise regulat trucks and cars pay the same as businesses. at a couple pennies per mile, I think it would be best for everyone. I do wonder how they would collect from out of state drivers / truckers.

[Suaviloquent]

More than just autonomy, there is a big push for connected vehicles.

 

Pretty sure mileage is already tracked - one way or another.

 

What would be interesting is how the grey market and other may prevent mileage tracking through various means. Future tech.

[hyperv6]

 

• Life ain't free and they will find a way to charge you for just about anything anymore. 

 

• I see electric cars as being much like lap tops and cell phones. Most will hold little value getting old as they will be the old models no one wants as the ranges will be shorter and the technology will be very out dated in 5-10 years.  

Planned obsolescence will really take hold here. 

While I agree with the first statement above, unless manufacturers POINTEDLY install OBVIOUS obsolescence tech, the fact that the vehicle is powered electrically should not incite mass 'this is outdated, gotta get a new one' mentality in the market. Phones incorporate a LOT of fleeting tech & apps which yes, are subject to superficial judgement, but these types of features in vehicles are pretty much independent of the power plant propelling such. Phonesa re also a HELLUVA lot more affordable than cars- most people don't shoulder a loan to own one.

 

Even subsequent generations of EVs that have improved range still should not see mass incentive to upgrade… this is in the same vein as IC vehicles' MPG improvement in subsequent gens. It's not usually enough to cause a trade- the costs are too steep for most consumers.

 

 

I think what you miss is that EV is only at the start of the learning and investment curve where IC is at the end. With a EV we could be just months with major improvments with technology investments or we could be years it all matters on how it progresses and that remains the great unknown. . 

Based on other electronics I suspect that will see much greater changes in the EV auto than we have seen year to year in a IC car. Also electronic today fail after so long with age. or they just get old and incompatible.  

[hyperv6]

I am certainly intrigued by the possibility someone would use a vintage car & simply disconnect the speedometer cable for long periods, thus ducking mileage tax.

 

They already have that figured out several ways. They only need to decide what to do. No one is going to get away with this easily.

[regfootball]

if you drive 15,000 miles a year, but only 10,000 is in your home state, your home state can't tax you for 15,000

[balthazar]

 

 

• Life ain't free and they will find a way to charge you for just about anything anymore. 

 

• I see electric cars as being much like lap tops and cell phones. Most will hold little value getting old as they will be the old models no one wants as the ranges will be shorter and the technology will be very out dated in 5-10 years.  

Planned obsolescence will really take hold here. 

While I agree with the first statement above, unless manufacturers POINTEDLY install OBVIOUS obsolescence tech, the fact that the vehicle is powered electrically should not incite mass 'this is outdated, gotta get a new one' mentality in the market. Phones incorporate a LOT of fleeting tech & apps which yes, are subject to superficial judgement, but these types of features in vehicles are pretty much independent of the power plant propelling such. Phonesa re also a HELLUVA lot more affordable than cars- most people don't shoulder a loan to own one.

 

Even subsequent generations of EVs that have improved range still should not see mass incentive to upgrade… this is in the same vein as IC vehicles' MPG improvement in subsequent gens. It's not usually enough to cause a trade- the costs are too steep for most consumers.

 

 

I think what you miss is that EV is only at the start of the learning and investment curve where IC is at the end. With a EV we could be just months with major improvments with technology investments or we could be years it all matters on how it progresses and that remains the great unknown. . 

Based on other electronics I suspect that will see much greater changes in the EV auto than we have seen year to year in a IC car. Also electronic today fail after so long with age. or they just get old and incompatible.  

I think I misinterpreted your 9:26 post. Agreed that as EVs age, they will be of very little value. Even basic battery-powered low-tech items, like cordless drills, are cost-prohibitive to keep running, batteries are discontinued/harder to get, and the performance drops off. Meanwhile a corded 25 yr old drill just keeps spinning for decades on end. Is the EV akin to the cordless drill? Probably. The problem there is, along with the supposed influx of autonomous driving vehicles, it will continue to sap all the emotion out of automobiles, making them more & more disposable.

[hyperv6]

 

 

Electricity in Washington state is heavily regulated and increases are only allowed under mandated voting by a board in our capital. One reason probably that our rates have stayed so low but also we do have an abundance of the 3 natural green energies that helps to keep things low and a statewide attitude of doing everything green.

 

In washington state you also have to have Garbage, yard/food waste and recycling pickup weekly. As such all of waste management trucks are CNG here.

 

Just looked at my most current BI-Monthly PUD bill from PSE. I used 1788 KWH at a rate of .09437 per KWH which came out to $168.73 plus the tax of $10.12 for a bill of $178.85 for 2 months or $89.425 per month. So if I get a BOLT and add the $28 per month to my electric bill but stop spending $400 a month on fuel even with the car payment and insurance, I still come out ahead.

 

Just wait till the government starts to charge you by the mile on the taxes they are losing on fuel now. Higher MPG and electrics have them all scrambling to take the tax by the mile. Also factor in the greatest cost in Fuel now is state and federal taxes and that is not going to go away. 

 

What about areas that have electric issues like in LA. In heat waves there are brown outs now what will they do when everyone starts plugging cars in? They are way behind on everything and solar and wind is not going to do it alone. What about the damns being torn down and not replaced?

The funny thing is that you seem to think that the current fossil fuel/oil situation is a bed of roses and not every bit as bad as this doom and gloom you cast over electric cars.

 

 

It is not perfect by any means but our lives have been built around this system for 100 years and it is and it flows with out lives and does not change the way we live or our daily habits. 

On the other hand EV are still new and in development. They are far from being non lifestyle changing at this point and many things in our society will need to be invested in and changed to deal with the new technology. HD TV was a simple change compared to a EV and many people still struggled with it as they had to change their cable or dish and invest in new equipment that until a couple years ago was no where as cheap. 

 

All I profess is that in all things we continue to invest but we do not kill what we are living on now. We need to make the change to where it is more accepting to the general public and will not change their daily patterns and habits. You do this they will be more accepting of the new technology and the change over will go much easier. 

 

Right now EV cars are not universally loved and accepted by most buyers. 

Also I caution that the EV is also by some being made to be the cure for everything. Well sorry it is not. There will be issues that will come along that will needed to be dealt with. Also the promised savings is not going to be as great as some make it. I expect that Electric rates will continue to climb, Taxes will be as much or more and the cost of the infrastructure will continued to be factored in. The fact is even now Gas is cheap considering what all it does and as of now it remains the cheapest and most fitting for most peoples live styles. 

Also we are not going to run out off oil any time soon. That fable has lead many on the wrong path. But we do need to continue to invest in all types of power and use a balances approach. Not only for the need of acceptance but also for the economy and our place in the business world. The green factor will take years to kick in as it is not instantaneous the savings as the investment will remain high.  

So do not try to label me in either camp. I believe a balanced approach to both needs to be maintained. Getting off oil is like getting off Heroin. Cold turkey could kill you. 

[hyperv6]

 

 

 

• Life ain't free and they will find a way to charge you for just about anything anymore. 

 

• I see electric cars as being much like lap tops and cell phones. Most will hold little value getting old as they will be the old models no one wants as the ranges will be shorter and the technology will be very out dated in 5-10 years.  

Planned obsolescence will really take hold here. 

While I agree with the first statement above, unless manufacturers POINTEDLY install OBVIOUS obsolescence tech, the fact that the vehicle is powered electrically should not incite mass 'this is outdated, gotta get a new one' mentality in the market. Phones incorporate a LOT of fleeting tech & apps which yes, are subject to superficial judgement, but these types of features in vehicles are pretty much independent of the power plant propelling such. Phonesa re also a HELLUVA lot more affordable than cars- most people don't shoulder a loan to own one.

 

Even subsequent generations of EVs that have improved range still should not see mass incentive to upgrade… this is in the same vein as IC vehicles' MPG improvement in subsequent gens. It's not usually enough to cause a trade- the costs are too steep for most consumers.

 

 

I think what you miss is that EV is only at the start of the learning and investment curve where IC is at the end. With a EV we could be just months with major improvments with technology investments or we could be years it all matters on how it progresses and that remains the great unknown. . 

Based on other electronics I suspect that will see much greater changes in the EV auto than we have seen year to year in a IC car. Also electronic today fail after so long with age. or they just get old and incompatible.  

I think I misinterpreted your 9:26 post. Agreed that as EVs age, they will be of very little value. Even basic battery-powered low-tech items, like cordless drills, are cost-prohibitive to keep running, batteries are discontinued/harder to get, and the performance drops off. Meanwhile a corded 25 yr old drill just keeps spinning for decades on end. Is the EV akin to the cordless drill? Probably. The problem there is, along with the supposed influx of autonomous driving vehicles, it will continue to sap all the emotion out of automobiles, making them more & more disposable.

 

 

I don't disagree at all. That is why I stated they will be much more like a Lap Top and I phone in the future than cars. Just the nature of Millennials and electronics will take this path alone. 

if you drive 15,000 miles a year, but only 10,000 is in your home state, your home state can't tax you for 15,000

 

You will not get away with 5,000 miles. I am sure other states will also tax you too. 

Most cars now can report the mileage via satellite with no problem. Hell GM tells me how much oil life I have left on my I phone now. 

 

Big Brother has been in your back seat for a long time and most people have no clue what all he can tap into if he would like. 

[G. David Felt]

 

 

 

• Life ain't free and they will find a way to charge you for just about anything anymore. 

 

• I see electric cars as being much like lap tops and cell phones. Most will hold little value getting old as they will be the old models no one wants as the ranges will be shorter and the technology will be very out dated in 5-10 years.  

Planned obsolescence will really take hold here. 

While I agree with the first statement above, unless manufacturers POINTEDLY install OBVIOUS obsolescence tech, the fact that the vehicle is powered electrically should not incite mass 'this is outdated, gotta get a new one' mentality in the market. Phones incorporate a LOT of fleeting tech & apps which yes, are subject to superficial judgement, but these types of features in vehicles are pretty much independent of the power plant propelling such. Phonesa re also a HELLUVA lot more affordable than cars- most people don't shoulder a loan to own one.

 

Even subsequent generations of EVs that have improved range still should not see mass incentive to upgrade… this is in the same vein as IC vehicles' MPG improvement in subsequent gens. It's not usually enough to cause a trade- the costs are too steep for most consumers.

 

 

I think what you miss is that EV is only at the start of the learning and investment curve where IC is at the end. With a EV we could be just months with major improvments with technology investments or we could be years it all matters on how it progresses and that remains the great unknown. . 

Based on other electronics I suspect that will see much greater changes in the EV auto than we have seen year to year in a IC car. Also electronic today fail after so long with age. or they just get old and incompatible.  

I think I misinterpreted your 9:26 post. Agreed that as EVs age, they will be of very little value. Even basic battery-powered low-tech items, like cordless drills, are cost-prohibitive to keep running, batteries are discontinued/harder to get, and the performance drops off. Meanwhile a corded 25 yr old drill just keeps spinning for decades on end. Is the EV akin to the cordless drill? Probably. The problem there is, along with the supposed influx of autonomous driving vehicles, it will continue to sap all the emotion out of automobiles, making them more & more disposable.

 

I have to disagree with you Balthazar and this comes I believe from my working in the Computer industry as an engineer and always being asked to think outside the box.

 

EV's open a whole new world to the auto enthusiast. Without all the liquid issues, we have plenty of room for people to create and build performance electric motors to replace existing OEM motors and as EVs become more common and we see how OEM auto builders tend to go with their solutions, then you have 3rd party startups that can build and expand on what the OEM has built.

 

Perfect example of this is a company I found while looking at electric axles. story posted to the alternative fuels thread:

 

Electric Axles and the 4WD Ford F150 EV!

 

This company I found, Protean Electric builds a complete motor, regenerative brake system that fits behind rims 18" or bigger and allows you to drop the whole power train, driveline, axle and allows one to create a unique AWD system.

 

Why do I bring this up? Performance, creative choice, so many ways for a custom builder to build a green auto that can have a large range of power and mileage. As I stated in that write up, you CANNOT get the torque out of a gas motor that this electric solution provides.  Ford F150 with the following:

 

2,300 lbs feet of combined torque from a dead stop

448 HP from the combined 4 motors

 

Read the write up and then tell me your thoughts? I really think if we embrace thinking outside the box, we have so much potential in having some amazing rides.

 

Think of your favorite older ride, clean no petro, plug it in too recharge and yet just goes with plenty of getup and go. As battery tech improves you can change out the battery pack, as companies produce more powerful electric motors, you replace them also.

 

Even in traditional auto's, there are so many options now of powerful electric motors that challenge petro in performance and yet make it much easier to maintain.

 

Yes you Make Valid points about cordless drills versus corded drill, yet I have had both rebuilt when they wore out and in many cases like an auto, just replaced with a newer more powerful version and recycled the older version. Everything wears out eventually, but I do see a cleaner nicer planet with EVs especially as solar and alternative energy platforms emerge and grow.

[hyperv6]

More than just autonomy, there is a big push for connected vehicles.

 

Pretty sure mileage is already tracked - one way or another.

 

What would be interesting is how the grey market and other may prevent mileage tracking through various means. Future tech.

 

They sure do have the ability to do this and more. The suspect the penalties will be heavy if caught cheating. 

It has been a while but i read up on how Oregon was already working on this on gas cars because of lost tax money on higher MPG cars. They all are in fear of the 53 MPG in 2025 as much as EV cars. 

[G. David Felt]

Mileage tax if states move to that will be like any other tax I suspect, you pay the full amount even if you drove 1/3 of it out of state. I do not see how a state can get out of state drivers to pay in state mileage tax. This way each state still collects the mileage tax and it offsets for those out of state drivers.

 

I agree with Hyper, EVs are not the all end to fix the planet. Hell even I know that a battery pack creates about the same amount of greenhouse gas as driving an eco box petro auto for 10 years.

 

Difference is we should be able to engineer a way to capture that gas and clean it, reuse it or figure out a way to harness that lost energy much like regenerative brakes works to put power back into your battery pack. I would think industry will eventually come up with some solutions on how to maximize steam, heat, cooling etc. from producing various products and return it back to the grid.

[hyperv6]

 

 

 

 

• Life ain't free and they will find a way to charge you for just about anything anymore. 

 

• I see electric cars as being much like lap tops and cell phones. Most will hold little value getting old as they will be the old models no one wants as the ranges will be shorter and the technology will be very out dated in 5-10 years.  

Planned obsolescence will really take hold here. 

While I agree with the first statement above, unless manufacturers POINTEDLY install OBVIOUS obsolescence tech, the fact that the vehicle is powered electrically should not incite mass 'this is outdated, gotta get a new one' mentality in the market. Phones incorporate a LOT of fleeting tech & apps which yes, are subject to superficial judgement, but these types of features in vehicles are pretty much independent of the power plant propelling such. Phonesa re also a HELLUVA lot more affordable than cars- most people don't shoulder a loan to own one.

 

Even subsequent generations of EVs that have improved range still should not see mass incentive to upgrade… this is in the same vein as IC vehicles' MPG improvement in subsequent gens. It's not usually enough to cause a trade- the costs are too steep for most consumers.

 

 

I think what you miss is that EV is only at the start of the learning and investment curve where IC is at the end. With a EV we could be just months with major improvments with technology investments or we could be years it all matters on how it progresses and that remains the great unknown. . 

Based on other electronics I suspect that will see much greater changes in the EV auto than we have seen year to year in a IC car. Also electronic today fail after so long with age. or they just get old and incompatible.  

I think I misinterpreted your 9:26 post. Agreed that as EVs age, they will be of very little value. Even basic battery-powered low-tech items, like cordless drills, are cost-prohibitive to keep running, batteries are discontinued/harder to get, and the performance drops off. Meanwhile a corded 25 yr old drill just keeps spinning for decades on end. Is the EV akin to the cordless drill? Probably. The problem there is, along with the supposed influx of autonomous driving vehicles, it will continue to sap all the emotion out of automobiles, making them more & more disposable.

 

I have to disagree with you Balthazar and this comes I believe from my working in the Computer industry as an engineer and always being asked to think outside the box.

 

EV's open a whole new world to the auto enthusiast. Without all the liquid issues, we have plenty of room for people to create and build performance electric motors to replace existing OEM motors and as EVs become more common and we see how OEM auto builders tend to go with their solutions, then you have 3rd party startups that can build and expand on what the OEM has built.

 

Perfect example of this is a company I found while looking at electric axles. story posted to the alternative fuels thread:

 

Electric Axles and the 4WD Ford F150 EV!

 

This company I found, Protean Electric builds a complete motor, regenerative brake system that fits behind rims 18" or bigger and allows you to drop the whole power train, driveline, axle and allows one to create a unique AWD system.

 

Why do I bring this up? Performance, creative choice, so many ways for a custom builder to build a green auto that can have a large range of power and mileage. As I stated in that write up, you CANNOT get the torque out of a gas motor that this electric solution provides.  Ford F150 with the following:

 

2,300 lbs feet of combined torque from a dead stop

448 HP from the combined 4 motors

 

Read the write up and then tell me your thoughts? I really think if we embrace thinking outside the box, we have so much potential in having some amazing rides.

 

Think of your favorite older ride, clean no petro, plug it in too recharge and yet just goes with plenty of getup and go. As battery tech improves you can change out the battery pack, as companies produce more powerful electric motors, you replace them also.

 

Even in traditional auto's, there are so many options now of powerful electric motors that challenge petro in performance and yet make it much easier to maintain.

 

Yes you Make Valid points about cordless drills versus corded drill, yet I have had both rebuilt when they wore out and in many cases like an auto, just replaced with a newer more powerful version and recycled the older version. Everything wears out eventually, but I do see a cleaner nicer planet with EVs especially as solar and alternative energy platforms emerge and grow.

 

 

It comes down to a life style thing and values. What do you value more and what changes to your life will a change from one to the other entail.  The fact is the Gas F150 has enough torque to get the job done and it can refuel fully much faster on the fly that is important on a trip or for a company that is on the road all day driving. An ev will not fit their needs or lifestyle. On the other hand the guy who tools around town and does not travel long trips the EV would be an easy change as long as he has a place to charge it. 

Here is the big delema. In many large cities where people live in apartments and park on the street they have little in the way to charge. But their driving in Say NYC best fit the profile of a EV owner. On the other hand here in Ohio we all have garages and can charge every night. but we also do a lot of cross country driving. Things are much farther apart. We also do not want to sit in say Nova Ohio charging for several hours as there is just nothing there. 

This paradox is very common and will need to be over come with continued investment in EV cars and infrastructure. Once they get a battery to charge in the time of a fill of Gas it will be a more level playing field but when is that going to happen. 1 Year? 5 Years or 25 Years? 

 

This is why we need to balance this out and continue with both sides. 

[G. David Felt]

Hyper I understand your points and they are valid, I also understand that unlike midwest or east coast, the west coast has embraced this far more and you do find plenty of charge points along the streets in the cities and at work places so you can recharge easily while you are at home or work or out and about.

 

Lucky for us, the DC fast charge is very common here so even on road trips along the west coast electric highway, you have at the rest stops these DC fast chargers that give you 80% in less than 30 min. So taking a bathroom brake, walk to exercise from sitting, etc and still being able to charge up your auto is very common here now.

[Suaviloquent]

Nissan, Tesla and Audi are leaders in wireless inductive charging tech, so that will be very cool.

 

In fact, the tech already is in use, just not in America. 

 

Hybrid tho. A good hybrid system, paired with crossovers is a recipe for success. WTF was Ford thinking when they got rid of the Escape hybrid to sell the C-Max. Now Toyota has the RAV4 hybrid, and I bet GM will put Voltec into the TerrNox.

[hyperv6]

Hyper I understand your points and they are valid, I also understand that unlike midwest or east coast, the west coast has embraced this far more and you do find plenty of charge points along the streets in the cities and at work places so you can recharge easily while you are at home or work or out and about.

 

Lucky for us, the DC fast charge is very common here so even on road trips along the west coast electric highway, you have at the rest stops these DC fast chargers that give you 80% in less than 30 min. So taking a bathroom brake, walk to exercise from sitting, etc and still being able to charge up your auto is very common here now.

 

Yest here on the east cost we pee faster than 30 min to make it to Florida in 16 hours. 

It is a choice of life style and what you value. Nothing wrong with either but like I state one system at this point is not a one thing fits all. 

Sorry I do have to go and work on the race car.  Damn thing is expensive and runs on neither gas or electric. When we got into soap box derby I thought it was like 500 and all is good. Well just coasting can put a car over $1500 or more depending on your paint. LOL! 

 

I need to get some photo's posted as we did a bitchin So Cal Belly Tank theme. We have a big race next week and I have to decide what balance we need to run. It is a real crap shoot since this is a new car.  I will try to check in later. My surface plate is in front of the garage and I have to get it on the scales before it rains again. 

[surreal1272]

• Life ain't free and they will find a way to charge you for just about anything anymore. 

 

• I see electric cars as being much like lap tops and cell phones. Most will hold little value getting old as they will be the old models no one wants as the ranges will be shorter and the technology will be very out dated in 5-10 years.  

Planned obsolescence will really take hold here.

While I agree with the first statement above, unless manufacturers POINTEDLY install OBVIOUS obsolescence tech, the fact that the vehicle is powered electrically should not incite mass 'this is outdated, gotta get a new one' mentality in the market. Phones incorporate a LOT of fleeting tech & apps which yes, are subject to superficial judgement, but these types of features in vehicles are pretty much independent of the power plant propelling such. Phonesa re also a HELLUVA lot more affordable than cars- most people don't shoulder a loan to own one.

 

Even subsequent generations of EVs that have improved range still should not see mass incentive to upgrade… this is in the same vein as IC vehicles' MPG improvement in subsequent gens. It's not usually enough to cause a trade- the costs are too steep for most consumers.

 

I think what you miss is that EV is only at the start of the learning and investment curve where IC is at the end. With a EV we could be just months with major improvments with technology investments or we could be years it all matters on how it progresses and that remains the great unknown. . 

Based on other electronics I suspect that will see much greater changes in the EV auto than we have seen year to year in a IC car. Also electronic today fail after so long with age. or they just get old and incompatible.

Unrelated and those supposed "hurdles" are no reason to stop pursuing the current EV path. IC, like the horse and buggy, will be a passing thought eventually. Not for a long time still but it will happen. That's the nature of technology and progress.

[G. David Felt]

Nissan, Tesla and Audi are leaders in wireless inductive charging tech, so that will be very cool.

 

In fact, the tech already is in use, just not in America. 

 

Hybrid tho. A good hybrid system, paired with crossovers is a recipe for success. WTF was Ford thinking when they got rid of the Escape hybrid to sell the C-Max. Now Toyota has the RAV4 hybrid, and I bet GM will put Voltec into the TerrNox.

Suav, wireless inductive charging is being used here by home owners mostly as it is very new but it is here and a few businesses have it so you can recharge in the work place garage.

 

Hyper I understand your points and they are valid, I also understand that unlike midwest or east coast, the west coast has embraced this far more and you do find plenty of charge points along the streets in the cities and at work places so you can recharge easily while you are at home or work or out and about.

 

Lucky for us, the DC fast charge is very common here so even on road trips along the west coast electric highway, you have at the rest stops these DC fast chargers that give you 80% in less than 30 min. So taking a bathroom brake, walk to exercise from sitting, etc and still being able to charge up your auto is very common here now.

 

Yest here on the east cost we pee faster than 30 min to make it to Florida in 16 hours. 

It is a choice of life style and what you value. Nothing wrong with either but like I state one system at this point is not a one thing fits all. 

Sorry I do have to go and work on the race car.  Damn thing is expensive and runs on neither gas or electric. When we got into soap box derby I thought it was like 500 and all is good. Well just coasting can put a car over $1500 or more depending on your paint. LOL! 

 

I need to get some photo's posted as we did a bitchin So Cal Belly Tank theme. We have a big race next week and I have to decide what balance we need to run. It is a real crap shoot since this is a new car.  I will try to check in later. My surface plate is in front of the garage and I have to get it on the scales before it rains again. 

 

Very cool, would love to see photo's and hear more about how it performs. Keep us updated and good luck with the upcoming race.