Opinion: The Family Sedan is now on the Endangered Species List

[Drew Dowdell]

With yesterday's report that the Hyundai Sonata and Kia K5/Optima may not be replaced at the end of their cycle, it has become clear that the mid-size family sedan in the U.S. has become an endangered species.  The current Sonata and K5 are expected to last until at least 2025, but if they do in fact end, the number of mid-size sedans offered in the market will dwindle to 4. For perspective, that is the same number of mini-van models currently on offer. (Toyota Sienna, Honda Odyssey, Chrysler Pacifica/Voyager, Kia Carnival).

The remaining sedans are Toyota Camry and Honda Accord, stalwarts in this niche, the Nissan Altima, and the Subaru Legacy.  The Chevrolet Malibu, while still listed on the Chevy website has a questionable future as GM stopped taking orders for the Malibu back in February, and while there has been no official announcement, with sales in the mid-30k unit range and mostly going to fleets, we can't expect GM to keep it going for long.  For now, the Camry seems safe as Toyota is able to continue to keep sales rates above the 300k unit mark, but sales of the Accord have dropped by 52% from 2014. The Nissan Altima is off by more than 1/3 from volumes just 5 years ago while the Legacy sedan has fallen the most, dropping by 62% since 2016.

The first big selling mid-size sedan to get the ax was the Dodge Avenger.  Since then the Chrysler 200, Ford Fusion, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda 6, and Buick Regal have all joined the list of dead mid-size sedan lines.  The large family sedan class has fared even worse with only the aging Nissan Maxima, Chrysler 300, and Dodge Charger remaining once the Toyota Avalon stops production in August and joins the Chevy Impala, Buick Lacrosse, and Ford Taurus in that great junkyard in the sky. Stellantis has indicated no clear plans to replace their aging sedans and seems to continue producing them mostly out of inertia. The 300 is expect to soldier on for another year with no replacement while the Charger might be replaced in 2024.

Once the most common silhouette in the American automotive landscape, the 3-box sedan is rapidly becoming a niche market as buyers flock to crossovers. 

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[Paolino]

It is upsetting to be honest. I do love a sedan. And I do love my sedan. That said, as I said in the other thread, I scrape EVERYTHING in mine. It's so bad the front bumper has to be hit with my fist to push the seam in as it meets the headlight housing. I can't enter a single driveway apron without scraping.

And potholes... I'm not sure how the roads are outside of NY but you can't drive 10 feet without nailing a huge pothole. It's disgusting. Lately all I imagine is that 1990s Lexus commercial with the champagne classes stacked up going over a bumpy road failing on the current NY roads.

My parents were recently looking at the Rav4 and were told they'd likely have to wait 2-3 months for one. They weren't impressed with the CRV and felt it felt slightly cheap in terms of material quality, which surprised me.

I like the look of the Equinox, but I don't know about reliability, and it's likely near the end of its cycle as it's been out a while--that said I'm not looking to replace mine immediately. It's nice that I paid mine off quickly and don't have a payment.. especially since my rent went up $235/mo.

[trinacriabob]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Once the most common silhouette in the American automotive landscape, the 3-box sedan is rapidly becoming a niche market as buyers flock to crossovers. 

 

The coupe scenario is in even worse shape.  Large coupes were once popular and, for those who didn't need 4 doors, they functioned much like sedans in terms of mechanics, features, ride, reliability, etc.

This isn't about pull, but about push.  The consumer is not dictating what the market is putting out.  The manufacturer is deciding, and then a person is funneled to whatever is available.

As for the remaining sedans, the Malibu will be biting the dust.  And so will the Charger.  The loss of the Charger will be especially sad, since it's such a nice substantial car and an excellent value in base form.

The Camry may stick around but its looks need to be cleaned up, modernized, and/or toned down.  I believe the Passat is also gone, based on looking at the VW site.  I had come to like the Passat.  I was fueling my car a few days ago and was talking to the driver of a 5 year old Passat.  He really liked his car and said it has been very reliable.  VW continues to offer geared automatic transmissions, which is a big plus.  He was astonished to learn that the Passat may have come to the end of its journey.

Consumers do want sedans.  The manufacturers are not making them available to the extent to which there is a market for them.  That's how I read it.

[David]

Sad for those that like a car, but at the rate states, counties and cities seem to ignore fixing and replacing worn out roads, the future seems to be trucks and SUVs.

I do not get the attraction for people to buy the Camry or Accord, they are just lemming mobiles to me.

Shame the Kia sports car will not survive.

RIP cars.

[Drew Dowdell]

2 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

I believe the Passat is also gone, based on looking at the VW site.

Passat production ended in summer 2021.

[NINETY EIGHT REGENCY]

I liked this article.  Thank you for posting. It is true.  The only way now it seems to get a sedan is to buy used. It is sad that it has been dying a slow and painful death in the United States. They still have  sedans elsewhere especially in China and Europe. Some of the sedans that are dead here are alive in well in China: Ford Taurus, Lincoln Zephyr, Cadillac CT6, Buick LaCrosse and Buick Regal.  I know Volkswagen Passsat recently died too. 

[riviera74]

Well, the race towards great crossover sales at the expense of sedans started at least seven years ago.  In a country of aging boomers with arthritic joints, the three-box sedan may well end up extinct by the end of the decade.  The sad times for the sedans are here.  Coupes are already DOA at this point.  Buyers are already paying a premium for crossovers; I do hope that they steer clear of even more expensive BOF SUVs.

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, David said:

but at the rate states, counties and cities seem to ignore fixing and replacing worn out roads, the future seems to be trucks and SUVs.

That doesn't even make a difference with SUVs because they all ride on pretty low profile tires.

14 hours ago, David said:

I do not get the attraction for people to buy the Camry or Accord, they are just lemming mobiles to me.

Everything in this class has always been like that, imo. None of them have been or done anything special. 

[oldshurst442]

23 hours ago, David said:

but at the rate states, counties and cities seem to ignore fixing and replacing worn out roads, the future seems to be trucks and SUVs.

What does that have to do with anything?

A pothole will just as easily break a CUV/SUVs suspension and wheels and wheel bearings and ball joints as it does sedans...

And as CCAP stated, most of the family hauling shytty CUVs/SUVs ride on car tires.  Their suspension systems are also sedan related. 

Even if you throw the Jeep Grand Cherokee at me, potholes eat these SUVs up as well.

The fullsized BOF SUVs from GM and Ford?

With all that heft?

Those just CONTRIBUTE to even shyttier roads...

David, honestly, get off that SUV high horse.  

You dont fit in the smaller sedans and that is cool. But just because you only fit it the bigger SUVs, dont knock the sedan just because you dont fit in a sedan.

Yes, people in North America have run away from the sedan. Yes one of the reasons is because the sedan has become small. But CUVs have bamboozled people in thinking that CUVs are bigger than their sedan counterparts. They are not. They are taller. Not bigger.  Taller also means ease of entry. But ease of entry does not mean bigger. 

Also, taller is somehow equated to being safer. Which is false false and more false.  

Higher center of gravity also means more chances of a roll over. We've been down THAT road before, and whether you believe that to be true or not does not make me care all that much. Why?  Because physics guides me.  I dont know what guides you if you dont believe in higher center of gravity CUVs actually have a more percentage of a roll over than a lower to the ground sedan...

You do you.  But dont be talking a smack game about CUVs and SUVs absorbing potholes better than sedans because that narration is pure bull. 

 

[oldshurst442]

On 5/26/2022 at 8:40 PM, David said:

I do not get the attraction for people to buy the Camry or Accord, they are just lemming mobiles to me.

True. 

But being a lemming automobile like a Camry or an Accord is no different than being a lemming SUV like a Tahoe...  (Suburban has its merits...) 

But a Tahoe?

What is the attraction of a Tahoe?

What makes it so exciting?

Its not fast...  I mean its got a pretty powerful V8 up there, but it does have to lug around all that weight so it doesnt really accelerate with all that much gusto.  A V6 lemming of a Camry is pretty quick of the line.  Its not bad considering that V6 is ancient. But it does have 300 horses on a very very lighter frame. 

The Tahoe handles like a whale.  So does a Camry.    Now do you understand where Im going with the Tahoe bashing?

And unto a another SUV.  ANY SUV that hasnt been tuned by technological wizardry  performance makes like an AMG from Mercedes or M from BMW or a Porsche and Lamborghini SUV...

ANY CUV and SUV is the very definition of the word lemming... 

Now more so than ever.    At least in the 1980s, real SUVs were REAL enthusiast type of vehicles...

 

 

You see that K5?

Its covered in mud, right?

Today's Tahoe is covered in Starbucks coffee that the soccer mom spilled on it by being distracted by being on her smart phone Tik Toking a cleavage and a$$ selfie and posting it on Instagram...

Edited May 28, 2022 by oldshurst442

[Drew Dowdell]

18 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

But being a lemming automobile like a Camry or an Accord is no different than being a lemming SUV like a Tahoe...  (Suburban has its merits...) 

But a Tahoe?

What is the attraction of a Tahoe?

What makes it so exciting?

Its not fast... 

It isn't about excitement. Nearly none of the crossovers or SUVs within the spending range we're talking about here are exciting.  Friend of mine just got an X3... is it luxurious? sure. Is it comfortable? absolutely. But every slightly well-to-do 30-something has one or something like it. It's not exciting.

I didn't buy my Avalanche to be exciting either. I bought it for comfort and to be able to haul the bike.  0-60 is measured as "sufficient". It's got air shocks. It wallows around corners (so much so that I've thought about a stiffer sway bar).  BUT... I can put 8-10 hours behind the wheel in it with ease.

I'm not sure what it's like near you, but in my region, the roads and highways are horrible. I'd never want to daily an "exciting" car for that reason.  Heck on the bike I have to constantly scan the road for monster potholes and bob and weave around them. I know where all the frost heaves on the the way to work are so I can raise my ass up before I hit them.

It's really bad here.

[trinacriabob]

There is really another big issue here.

Most of us here have advanced critical thinking skills and a critical eye when it comes to automobiles. (It's almost to an OCD level, if not already there!)

There's a fairly big difference with what can be done stylistically with 3 volumes than with 2 volumes.  It's a little harder to adhere to corporate branding and make SUVs/CUVs that are easier to differentiate from each other.

That said, automotive designers have quite a bit more stylistic leverage with sedans and coupes.  One only needs to think about some of the sedans and coupes that C&Gers love so much.

[smk4565]

The Camry, Accord and Altima have global sales too, they will probably be around forever.  I think the small sedans may stick better since there aren't really many SUV's at the $20k price point.  It seems though that car companies just want to build high end models, and they can all go down that road, but someone won't and will get all the entry level market.  

The one thing that might bring sedans, or cars is EV's.  Because the range on these boxy SUVs will be bad, so you might see more sedans, or stuff like the Kia EV6 or even Model Y which are more like tall cars with the bar of soap shape

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It isn't about excitement. Nearly none of the crossovers or SUVs within the spending range we're talking about here are exciting.  Friend of mine just got an X3... is it luxurious? sure. Is it comfortable? absolutely. But every slightly well-to-do 30-something has one or something like it. It's not exciting.

I didn't buy my Avalanche to be exciting either. I bought it for comfort and to be able to haul the bike.  0-60 is measured as "sufficient". It's got air shocks. It wallows around corners (so much so that I've thought about a stiffer sway bar).  BUT... I can put 8-10 hours behind the wheel in it with ease.

I'm not sure what it's like near you, but in my region, the roads and highways are horrible. I'd never want to daily an "exciting" car for that reason.  Heck on the bike I have to constantly scan the road for monster potholes and bob and weave around them. I know where all the frost heaves on the the way to work are so I can raise my ass up before I hit them.

It's really bad here.

Absolutely.

Whatever you said is so right.

But a Camry is quite comfortable as well.   Maybe not for David. Its too small for him.

But what makes a Camry a Lemming (for him) and NOT a Tahoe, Grand Cherokee, GMT 360 Trailblazer (non SS model) as such?

Especially with the amount of sales CUVs and SUVs are getting from North Americans the last decade. Sheeple are following other sheeple and buying CUV/SUVs because these sheeple think CUV/SUVs are safer, more bigger to haul stuff, more comfortable yada yada yada.   All not true when compared to their sedan equivalent counterparts.

A Camry was NEVER an exciting vehicle in its entire existence. What family hauling sedan is?  Was a family hauling sedan ever an exciting vehicle?  

The point is, CUV/SUVs dont do well in potholes either.  They break just like sedans do in potholes.

Point is, a Camry hauls just as much stuff as its CUV counterpart. I believe its the Highlander. The only thing the Highlander does better than the Camry is that hatch. It opens up big and tall as compared to the Camry's trunk. But as far as passengers go, same.  The Highlander makes it easier to for people to get in and out of as compared to the Camry, but the Camry has a waaaaay lower risk of a roll over.  Roll overs are lethal for the passengers inside. 

Potholes were I come from are brutal too. It dont matter if a car has airshocks, the kinds of potholes we have to deal with makes airshocks a moot point. Unless these airshocks are of the intelligent kind where a camera and a sensor see a pothole before the tires hit it and adjust the suspension travel while passing over the pothole.  Point is, to counter what Dave said, people wont buy  a CUV/SUV over a sedan because potholes are brutal.  Potholes are brutal equally for sedans as for CUV/SUVs.

Exciting cars do have stiffer suspensions, and when not equipped by magnetic shocks, do have an uncomfortable ride. 

Problem is, throughout North America's history of the automobile and hauling families, exciting cars have NEVER had a prominent sales advantage over the mundane. That is true for any decade and its true for any type of vehicle, sedan, CUV or otherwise.  Average Joe dad and mom simply dont buy exciting vehicles to haul their families around. In fact, average joe moms and dads buy lemming vehicles because average joe moms and dads are lemmings themselves... 

Dave does own a GMT360 V8 powered rocket SUV.  But he also owns a very comfortable Escalade. The Escalade is not a lemming vehicle and the Trailblazer SS is  not either.  However, the Escalade's cousin, the Tahoe and the SS's brother, the lesser Trailblazer, these are vehicles that are as boring as they can get.  A V6 Camry could actually be funner to drive...   The Tahoe might perform better in potholes, as the Escalade as far as comfort goes, but BOTH Trailblazers will punish its occupants, ESPECIALLY the SS, and both Trailblazer trims WILL break suspension parts if the pothole is not avoided or hit in a specific way especially at a higher speed if the driver is not vigilant.  And a sudden evasive movement and especially the GMT360, non SS, and it WILL roll over... 

This is all Im saying. 

My disdain for CUVs and SUVs goes beyond the realm of excitement...

My disdain for these vehicles also include the false narrative of CUVs that CUVs are more comfortable than sedans, safer, yada yada yada.

The fact that CUVs also restrict and discourage enthusiastic driving by means of higher center of gravity, unnecessary heft and weight and crappy weight distribution also contributes to this.

A Camry may wallow, but you could still toss it around. It will squeal, and complain, but it will do it.  It will have heavy understeer. But it will do it.    A CUV WILL topple over...    Again, not including the performance oriented CUVs that rely on electronic technological wizardry to keep that top heavy $h! box from toppling over. 

[Drew Dowdell]

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I think the small sedans may stick better since there aren't really many SUV's at the $20k price point.  It seems though that car companies just want to build high end models, and they can all go down that road, but someone won't and will get all the entry level market.  

That’s because, after you take away shared components, it costs just as much to engineer and design a Corolla as it does a RAV-4, but the RAV-4 sells for twice as much, so Toyota has to build many more Corollas to make the same profit.

[riviera74]

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That’s because, after you take away shared components, it costs just as much to engineer and design a Corolla as it does a RAV-4, but the RAV-4 sells for twice as much, so Toyota has to build many more Corollas to make the same profit.

Same with GM and Ford, which is why both have essentially ditched the sedans, outside of Lincoln and Cadillac, for CUVs and SUVs.

[Drew Dowdell]

13 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Same with GM and Ford, which is why both have essentially ditched the sedans, outside of Lincoln and Cadillac, for CUVs and SUVs.

Of course. It applies to all brands.

The most drastic example I can think of is the Sonic/Trax/Encore. The Sonic sold in the $13k-$22k range. The Trax started at $21k and went up from there. The Encore started around $25k and my loaded top trim one was $34k.

They’re all the same platform and they are identical mechanically +/- AWD. 
 

From an R&D perspective the costs would be nearly identical. The Buick gets nicer leather, bigger wheels, and extra sound deadening, but aside from that, even assembly costs would be nearly identical as well.  GM probably had to sell 6 to 10 Sonics to make the same profit as one highly trimmed Encore.

[oldshurst442]

CUVs and SUVs sell at a higher MSRP than their sedan counterparts because THAT is what the market dictates and hence  why the higher profit margins.

But when sedans all go away, and there is nothing left BUT CUVs and SUVs, and there is a market adjustment in pricing for AFFORDABLE CUVs and SUVs, there WILL be CHEAPER priced CUV offerings. These cheaper CUV offerings will NOW take the place of the Corolla scenario...  

And if sedans DO make a comeback, they will probably command a higher price tag than their CUV counterpart reversing the scenario we have now...

*SIGH*

There is nothing new about all this.   Its automotive business 101.

What I dont understand is (aside from the downsizing of sedans) is how we got a whole phoquing continent to stop buying cars in favor of a lesser, unsafer, shyttier riding, less capable in hauling shyte CUVs...   

Less capable in hauling...

YES!!!

Less capable in hauling.

Aside from the hatchback style opening, the back end does NOT fit MORE cargo. It fits maybe TALLER stuff, but NOT more stuff.

Equinox back end

 

Seats up...NOT down.  What good does it make it for the seats to be down?  Going on a trip with the family, where will the phoquing kids sit if the seats are down?  

Previous gen Malibu

 

This gen Malibu

 

A sedan based station wagon was even BETTER in hauling crap in the back...

And this is true for ALL sedans versus their EQUIVALENT CUV counterparts.

I owned a 2007 Ford Edge and a 2005 Impala SS.   I moved from one house that I owned and sold to a new and current house I own now with these two cars.  I fit more boxes in the Impala, seats down, than with the Edge, with the seats down.  I put the TALLER boxes in the Edge, duh, but I fit more boxes in the Impala.  And the Edge was a wider CUV than most in its class. The Edge was probably shorter than the Impala.  Shorter wheelbase too.  But it was a taller vehicle. It might have even been wider too.  The rear cargo was humongous. Cavernous.  But the Impala actually had a bigger...trunk.   And THAT phenom is actually true across the board with the sedans versus their CUV counterparts. 

But...sedans have become too sporty and that the profile is more coupe like killing the benefits of hauling stuff with a sedan.  But that is an attempt to spruce up the sedan sales. THAT didnt work, duh, as sedans are supposed to haul families, sealing the sedans fate faster to die. 

But I wanna know: 

When in the hell did people get soooooo stupid and bamboozled by this crap narrative that CUVs haul more stuff?

Taller stuff, yes. NOT more stuff...

Edited May 28, 2022 by oldshurst442

[surreal1272]

14 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

CUVs and SUVs sell at a higher MSRP than their sedan counterparts because THAT is what the market dictates and hence  why the higher profit margins.

But when sedans all go away, and there is nothing left BUT CUVs and SUVs, and there is a market adjustment in pricing for AFFORDABLE CUVs and SUVs, there WILL be CHEAPER priced CUV offerings. These cheaper CUV offerings will NOW take the place of the Corolla scenario...  

And if sedans DO make a comeback, they will probably command a higher price tag than their CUV counterpart reversing the scenario we have now...

*SIGH*

There is nothing new about all this.   Its automotive business 101.

What I dont understand is (aside from the downsizing of sedans) is how we got a whole phoquing continent to stop buying cars in favor of a lesser, unsafer, shyttier riding, less capable in hauling shyte CUVs...   

Less capable in hauling...

YES!!!

Less capable in hauling.

Aside from the hatchback style opening, the back end does NOT fit MORE cargo. It fits maybe TALLER stuff, but NOT more stuff.

Equinox back end

 

Seats up...NOT down.  What good does it make it for the seats to be down?  Going on a trip with the family, where will the phoquing kids sit if the seats are down?  

Previous

 

gen Malibu

 

This gen Malibu

 

A sedan based station wagon was even BETTER in hauling crap in the back...

When in the hell did people get soooooo stupid and bamboozled by this crap narrative? 

I wish I had taken pictures of all the times I hauled just a pure ton of crap in my old Magnum for eight years. Now, to be fair, there were times where the height of certain loads were an issue and made the Magnum useless but the other 98% if the time, it could haul plenty of stuff plus seat five (although four more comfortably). At the time of purchase, back in 2008, the dealership was trying to get me into a 2005 Tahoe for not much more money but with gas being outrageous at the time ($4.49 a gallon in Prescott, AZ at the time, deja vu) and me driving 50 miles round trip to work daily, that was not going to be a good plan for me and I am glad I bought the Magnum instead. It did most of what I needed, day in and day out, without killing me at the pump and was also just a cooler looking ride, in my "not so biased" opinion lol. Wagons have taken $h! rap in this country, all the while folks are just driving tall wagons while thumbing their noses at the mere mention of the word "wagon". It's right up there with "van" for most folks these days and that has never made any sense to me. 

 

Alas, yet another car fad.

Edited May 28, 2022 by surreal1272

[oldshurst442]

I wanna know when in the hell did people get bamboozled in thinking that CUVs are safer?

Light tap from the back sends this CUV rolling over

 

Sedan loses controll, hits barriers, still upright. Hits crossover pickup truck from Honda, sedan still upright, crossover pick up truck...rolls over...

 

Slow speed, hits a car....rolls over

 

 

 

[trinacriabob]

4 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

 

Let's not underestimate sedan trunks.

One of my friend's brothers would borrow his parents' full-size Pontiac, stuff a few people in the trunk, and drive up to and through the box office booths at the drive-in.  Just one person.  In a big Pontiac.  And, once this big Pontiac was parked, he opened the trunk and let his friends out. 

It's not too smart to begin with.  But wouldn't it also look weird to nearby parked cars that the trunk of this big car pops open and teenagers start climbing out of it?

[Robert Hall]

On 5/26/2022 at 9:58 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

Passat production ended in summer 2021.

I suspect the Arteon will be gone soon also..I read they only sold 47 or so in the first quarter of 2022 in the US.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Robert Hall

[Drew Dowdell]

Of course, there was also a time when sedans had truly cavernous trunks. My 81 Toronado trunk was considered “personal” (read: small) back when it was new, but I can fit two adult bicycles back there when I take the front tires off and still close it. It would be larger if not for the funky way the spare is mounted. My 85 Continental was double the size and my 83 Caprice was larger still. I moved in and out of my dorm in the Caprice and Continental.

34 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I suspect the Arteon will be gone soon also..I read they only sold 47 or so in the first quarter of 2022 in the US.

Oddly, they just announced a refresh for it and it’s finally getting an appropriate engine with 300hp.

[trinacriabob]

The Arteon has a "high" price point.   They start in the low $40s.  They needed to cover the middle ground between Jetta and Arteon, in the high $20s.

[Robert Hall]

10 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

The Arteon has a "high" price point.   They start in the low $40s.  They needed to cover the middle ground between Jetta and Arteon, in the high $20s.

I guess the 'middle ground' is where the Tiguan fits in.     At this rate, the Accord, Altima and Camry will be the last midsize family sedans available.   

[David]

On 5/28/2022 at 9:27 AM, oldshurst442 said:

I wanna know when in the hell did people get bamboozled in thinking that CUVs are safer?

Light tap from the back sends this CUV rolling over

 

Sedan loses controll, hits barriers, still upright. Hits crossover pickup truck from Honda, sedan still upright, crossover pick up truck...rolls over...

 

Slow speed, hits a car....rolls over

 

Yes, High center vehicles that have poor drivers can easily flip as well as cars.

Like @Drew Dowdell stated about why he bought his Avalanche, I bought my Escalade for comfort of road trips and for helping my kids as they moved from home to apartments, then into their own homes and can say that my Escalade ESV and GMC Suburban carry lots of stuff. I have also carried plenty of sheetrock and wood in the Suburban for my home remodel projects, after all 5ft wide by 10ft long interior when all seats are down or removed for the second and third row gives plenty of space. I have also had plenty of space for road trips for luggage and other stuff in the far back.

I admit, not everyone can afford the gas bill that my full size SUVs or my fun SS requires, fueling up the SS yesterday was a $100 bill for Premium of just 17 gallons.

Thank you Olds for making me think about my rides as I know I am a far more aggressive driver than many, but still consider myself to be a aggressive defensive driver and as such, apply the engineering to my auto's in making sure they can handle the way I drive.

As such, my 1994 Suburban has a custom built 402 V8, matching custom jet chip, custom transmission and 425 custom posi-lock rear differential on top of I changed out the suspension from the OEM default to a 1 ton coils in front and leaf springs in back. I also as my picture shows in my album here have 20 low profile tires and have had no problem doing 80 mph on the clover leaf on and off ramps of our freeway system with no body roll. I tend to make sure my SUVs handle the way I would expect a sports car to handle and as such, tend to forget the customization I have done to my rides.

That all takes into the laws of physics that many never think about in how a taller auto would handle aggressive driving.

With that stated, we have to also point out the idiots driving in your gif images who clearly were driving distracted or just plan too stupid to be looking down the road on what all is going on.

Driving is a privilege that seems to have been forgotten in the push for votes by the politicians as today when I ran some errands, it was very clear there are plenty of people that should not be driving on the road.

Back in January of this year there was this story written: Lincoln Now Sells More Product in China Than U.S. - The Truth About Cars

It made me realize that two things could very well happen of which I believe is already true on the CUV front.

1. Chinese building and selling autos in America is real, look at Buick.
2. Cars very well can survive as they are imported into North America from China and other low labor cost countries for select brand names. Lincoln is one as is Cadillac.

Over all, good debate, great points you make and I enjoy the banter. Hope your having a relaxing weekend.  

 

[regfootball]

funny how Audi, Merc etc will still have their sedans and charge the snot of them $$$$ 

that VW Arteon just got interesting with 295hp and DCT.  But read elsewhere where the low Arteon sales were partially due to none being available.  Yes, they are too pricey also.  Why get a VW when its priced in Audi territory.

[David]

@oldshurst442 Thought of you my friend, as this is right up your alley, now if they would only make it rather than concept it.

Revived Chevy Impala SS Embraces Posh yet Virtual Cadillac CT6 x Camaro ZL1 Lifestyle - autoevolution

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, David said:

@oldshurst442 Thought of you my friend, as this is right up your alley, now if they would only make it rather than concept it.

Revived Chevy Impala SS Embraces Posh yet Virtual Cadillac CT6 x Camaro ZL1 Lifestyle - autoevolution

Id buy something like that. 

Its just a render from a fan though. Not a legit concept. 

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, David said:

Yes, High center vehicles that have poor drivers can easily flip as well as cars.

Like @Drew Dowdell stated about why he bought his Avalanche, I bought my Escalade for comfort of road trips and for helping my kids as they moved from home to apartments, then into their own homes and can say that my Escalade ESV and GMC Suburban carry lots of stuff. I have also carried plenty of sheetrock and wood in the Suburban for my home remodel projects, after all 5ft wide by 10ft long interior when all seats are down or removed for the second and third row gives plenty of space. I have also had plenty of space for road trips for luggage and other stuff in the far back.

I admit, not everyone can afford the gas bill that my full size SUVs or my fun SS requires, fueling up the SS yesterday was a $100 bill for Premium of just 17 gallons.

Thank you Olds for making me think about my rides as I know I am a far more aggressive driver than many, but still consider myself to be a aggressive defensive driver and as such, apply the engineering to my auto's in making sure they can handle the way I drive.

As such, my 1994 Suburban has a custom built 402 V8, matching custom jet chip, custom transmission and 425 custom posi-lock rear differential on top of I changed out the suspension from the OEM default to a 1 ton coils in front and leaf springs in back. I also as my picture shows in my album here have 20 low profile tires and have had no problem doing 80 mph on the clover leaf on and off ramps of our freeway system with no body roll. I tend to make sure my SUVs handle the way I would expect a sports car to handle and as such, tend to forget the customization I have done to my rides.

That all takes into the laws of physics that many never think about in how a taller auto would handle aggressive driving.

With that stated, we have to also point out the idiots driving in your gif images who clearly were driving distracted or just plan too stupid to be looking down the road on what all is going on.

Driving is a privilege that seems to have been forgotten in the push for votes by the politicians as today when I ran some errands, it was very clear there are plenty of people that should not be driving on the road.

Back in January of this year there was this story written: Lincoln Now Sells More Product in China Than U.S. - The Truth About Cars

It made me realize that two things could very well happen of which I believe is already true on the CUV front.

1. Chinese building and selling autos in America is real, look at Buick.
2. Cars very well can survive as they are imported into North America from China and other low labor cost countries for select brand names. Lincoln is one as is Cadillac.

Over all, good debate, great points you make and I enjoy the banter. Hope your having a relaxing weekend.  

 

 You realize that your gif is just Hollywood magic accident.  Its not a real roll over.  It is staged to go boom and let the rear tire go up in the air and do a roll over like a master and his dog playing tricks like:

Hey Rex, play dead.

Hey Rex, roll over...

Yes, cars DO roll over.  

My problem I have with you is that YOU are arguing against physics.  You simply canNOT argue with physics. Im glad that you have rethought your driving because you do have SUVs. The thing is with YOUR SUVs:

1. The Escalade is wide and has a long wheelbase. The full-sized SUVs are less prone to roll overs.  They aint low to the ground cars, so they could roll over more easily than a car, but these fullsizers are pretty solid if the roads are pretty smooth. A slight imperfection though and they will roll over.  A car has a higher tolerance...  

2. Your Trailblazer is a performance SUV.  It is hunkered down with stiffer suspension. Like the Escalade, though, it will have a more forgiving roll over risk. But dont kid yourself, the GMT 360 is not a platform where GM took roll overs seriously. The GMT 360 is eons better than the S10 Blazer of the previous gen, but that is not saying much as thee S10 Blazers was horrid. Horrid horrid horrid for roll overs.

Please, do NOT gloss over the real danger of CUV and SUVs rolling over. It IS a REAL hazard.  Just because YOU own 2 SUVs and YOU want to feel good about your love for SUVs, do NOT false inform.  

To boot, its just PHYSICS, man. 

And yes, thank you for wishing me a nice week-end.  And yes it was.  Baseball and softball galore these past 2 days. A dash of visiting family and friends for a BBQ.  Id say it was a GREAT week-end.

I hope your week-end was just as nice as mine was. Even more!!! 

 

[surreal1272]

15 hours ago, David said:

@oldshurst442 Thought of you my friend, as this is right up your alley, now if they would only make it rather than concept it.

Revived Chevy Impala SS Embraces Posh yet Virtual Cadillac CT6 x Camaro ZL1 Lifestyle - autoevolution

So a CT6 with a Camaro nose. 
 

Um, no. 

[riviera74]

27 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

So a CT6 with a Camaro nose. 
 

Um, no. 

Needs work.  Like a real Chevy nose, not a Camaro one. 

Also, it looks too much like a racing car, rather than a stealthy one.  No need to advertise that to police or insurance companies.  If you want one done better, see the Chevy SS (or last Pontiac GTO, based on the late Holden Commodore).

[oldshurst442]

A Camaro nose is technically a Chevy nose...   Yes, it would be a real Chevy nose a Camaro nose would be. 

The Chevy SS nose would technically NOT be a real Chevy nose. It would be a Holden nose.  And...lets be honest, although pretty, the Holden nose, or Chevy SS, lets call it what it really is.  

Un-inspiring. 

 

The Camaro nose is aggressive.  A new generation Impala SS type car kinda needs that aggressive identity.  

Maybe not an exact Camaro nose like that fake render. But definitely NOT a boring, unexciting, drab FWD appliance look-a-like either...    The Holden nose does a FANTASTIC job in mimicking FWD Chevrolet appliance vehicles...    

The Chevy SS/Holden Commodores are pretty though. 

But then again, pretty does NOT sell muscle.   That would be strike two...

Butch sells muscle.

 

The Camaro's front end is plenty butch. And its a nice butch face.  Its just that the Camaro lacks in other areas...

 

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by oldshurst442

[Robert Hall]

^ Don't care for the wicker basket grille on some recent Camaros..

[Drew Dowdell]

On 5/29/2022 at 6:50 PM, regfootball said:

funny how Audi, Merc etc will still have their sedans and charge the snot of them $$$$ 

that VW Arteon just got interesting with 295hp and DCT.  But read elsewhere where the low Arteon sales were partially due to none being available.  Yes, they are too pricey also.  Why get a VW when its priced in Audi territory.

Because it's a damn nice VW... but yea, it does have a Phaeton aspect to it. 

I liken it to an Aurora now.  Not from a full premium brand, but commanding a full premium price.... and honestly worth it if you're not a badge snob.

Also, it's bigger than any Audi available at that price point, with the engine upgrade, it's also more powerful. 

[ccap41]

On 5/27/2022 at 11:36 PM, oldshurst442 said:

A Camry may wallow, but you could still toss it around. It will squeal, and complain, but it will do it.  It will have heavy understeer. But it will do it.    A CUV WILL topple over...    Again, not including the performance oriented CUVs that rely on electronic technological wizardry to keep that top heavy $h! box from toppling over. 

While I agreed with most of what you said up until this point. CUV's aren't just toppling over while spiritedly driving. 

Yes, there are rollover issued but that's in collisions with things, not just on their own. 

[Drew Dowdell]

@oldshurst442 and @ccap41

Pretty much every modern SUV has stability control that includes rollover protection.  Sure there is only so much that technology do to overcome stupid... but the risk is significantly mitigated compared to even just a few years ago. 

[ccap41]

On 5/28/2022 at 11:11 AM, oldshurst442 said:

What I dont understand is (aside from the downsizing of sedans) is how we got a whole phoquing continent to stop buying cars in favor of a lesser, unsafer, shyttier riding, less capable in hauling shyte CUVs... 

I'm confused how CUVs are less capable at hauling than a similarly priced/sized sedan. You know CUVs are hatchbacks and with rear seats folding (in both vehicles - for the sake of comparison) there's a much larger opening in the rear of a CUV than a trunk and back seats. 

[Drew Dowdell]

44 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I'm confused how CUVs are less capable at hauling than a similarly priced/sized sedan. You know CUVs are hatchbacks and with rear seats folding (in both vehicles - for the sake of comparison) there's a much larger opening in the rear of a CUV than a trunk and back seats. 

it's the "similarly priced sedan" part that gets ya.... the similarly priced sedan to a CR-V is an Accord... not the Civic like instinct suggests. Similarly priced sedan to the HR-V is the Civic.  Back when Chevy still built Impalas, the similarly priced Crossover was the Equinox... or if you were stupid enough with the option boxes, the Trailblazer. 

As we ended up finding out with our Encore, cubic feet of cargo room is a bit of a deceptive marketing tool as that measurement only really applied if you were filling it to the roof. If you're just going away with family for the weekend, you try not to stack suit cases to the roof if you can manage it and with that restriction, the Verano/Regal end up being able to haul more.

[ccap41]

27 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

it's the "similarly priced sedan" part that gets ya.... the similarly priced sedan to a CR-V is an Accord... not the Civic like instinct suggests. Similarly priced sedan to the HR-V is the Civic.  Back when Chevy still built Impalas, the similarly priced Crossover was the Equinox... or if you were stupid enough with the option boxes, the Trailblazer. 

As we ended up finding out with our Encore, cubic feet of cargo room is a bit of a deceptive marketing tool as that measurement only really applied if you were filling it to the roof. If you're just going away with family for the weekend, you try not to stack suit cases to the roof if you can manage it and with that restriction, the Verano/Regal end up being able to haul more.

I get what you're saying but that's a huge benefit of a hatchback, is you can fill to the roof. If we want to pretend that everything above the seats doesn't exist, sure they're completely comparable but that's not realistic. Every road trip we took as a family, sht was stacked to the foot in either our vans or SUVs. 

Cargo volume, per Honda's website:

https://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan#trims-specs

https://automobiles.honda.com/cr-v#trims-specs

I just used LX trims for both vehicles as I'm not sure their hierarchy and they both had LX trims. 

CR-V

Cargo Volume

Rear seats up: 39.2 cubic feet

Rear seats down: 75.8 cubic feet

Passenger Volume: 105.9 cubic feet

Accord:

Cargo Volume

16.7 cubic feet

Passenger Volume: 105.6 cubic feet

Even if you wanted to cut the CRV short because you may not choose to stack things to the roof, it has over three times the volume available. Even cutting it in half double what the Accord has available. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by ccap41

[Drew Dowdell]

Just now, ccap41 said:

I get what you're saying but that's a huge benefit of a hatchback, if you can fill to the roof. If we want to pretend that everything above the seats doesn't exist, sure they're completely comparable but that's not realistic.

Cargo volume, per Honda's website:

https://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan#trims-specs

https://automobiles.honda.com/cr-v#trims-specs

I just used LX trims for both vehicles as I'm not sure their hierarchy and they both had LX trims. 

CR-V

Cargo Volume

Rear seats up: 39.2 cubic feet

Rear seats down: 75.8 cubic feet

Passenger Volume: 105.9 cubic feet

Accord:

Cargo Volume

16.7 cubic feet

Passenger Volume: 105.6 cubic feet

Even if you wanted to cut the CRV short because you may not choose to stack things to the roof, it has over three times the volume available. Even cutting it in half double what the Accord has available. 

I was able to stuff my CR-V to the gills a few times... and yes it could haul a bunch.... but it was still a rare occasion for me to stack things above the rear seat.  Can it? sure. Do I? not really.  I know it's not a directly fair comparison because of the higher base price though there is some overlap, but my 300C is eminently better at long distance vacationing than either the Encore or CR-V ever were, and it was bought specifically for that purpose.  A cheaper Charger or Impala would be of similar capability.

I think the point is that people need to be more realistic with their use cases they dream up when buying a vehicle.  Are you really going to be hauling sand in a CR-V regularly?  Do you really need a Durango instead of a Charger for twice yearly trips to Ikea when Ikea offers fast delivery for cheap?  My 300C does Costco duty better than the Encore ever did. 

People have outsized ideas of what they're going to be doing with their vehicles.... they have this idea that they'll be kayaking every weekend between ski trips and hauling their horses (which they don't own), when in reality, they just trundle to work and back and occasionally stop at the grocery store.  And that's how we end up with vehicles like the Maverick and Santa Cruz.

[Robert Hall]

I pack my Jeep from behind the front seats to the tailgate to the roof inside several times a week lately.   I can't think of a sedan as practical for my current use case.  And the 4WD w/ 4 wheel low, mud setting, hill descent control and ground clearance get used every time I'm at the Mud Farm..  A FWD appliance sedan wouldn't cut it out there..

I've been driving SUVs for almost 28 years, so I guess that is what I'm used to as far as daily drivers.   I've been happy w/ JGCs for 22 years. 

 #MudFarmLife

Edited June 2, 2022 by Robert Hall

[oldshurst442]

4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I'm confused how CUVs are less capable at hauling than a similarly priced/sized sedan. You know CUVs are hatchbacks and with rear seats folding (in both vehicles - for the sake of comparison) there's a much larger opening in the rear of a CUV than a trunk and back seats. 

@Drew Dowdell answered this the way I wanted to. 

[oldshurst442]

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

@oldshurst442 and @ccap41

Pretty much every modern SUV has stability control that includes rollover protection.  Sure there is only so much that technology do to overcome stupid... but the risk is significantly mitigated compared to even just a few years ago. 

Just a few years ago is the key phrase. 

And I also mentioned electronic technological wizardry.

The thing is, sedans ALSO benefit from this stability control wizardry.

The thing is, yes, the speed limits are higher with stability control, and yes, there are some stability controls that work the brakes, suspension travels and corrective steering to avoid and/or mitigate roll overs.

Physics however, take over.

All the GIFs I CAREFULLY chose and the equivalent sedan accident would NOT make the sedan flip over. 

Such as this one

A sedan getting T boned, just makes the sedan fly into the other car, or possibly the curb further down. But the sedan will not flip like that. A FASTER T Bone and the sedan MAY flip. But this T Bone was not really at blazing speeds either...

I dunno what shytty shenanigans this idiot was doing with his Mercedes CUV prior to the roll over...but his sporty CUV is also a Mercedes...and it rolled over. 

 

But a sedan would REALLY have to go blazingly fast to flip over at that round-about taking a sharp turn...but blangingly fast also means the sedan will simply NOT turn, not roll over but just go THROUGH the round-about...  The CUV will probably...roll over MULTIPLE times. 

This sporty CUV, from Mercedes, I will mention Mercedes MULTIPLE times,  because its a high end CUV FROM Mercedes with presumably high end stability controls to AVOID roll overs at seemingly low speeds such as in THIS case...but nope...it rolled over. 

[regfootball]

My mom's DTS trunk will haul a lot more stuff in it than a 'trunk' of a crossover......wider, deeper, sometimes taller than the "level we would stack stuff either due to the slope of the hatch or wanting to see through the rear window".

It's actually rather comical how small some CUV cargo areas are unless you fold the seats and actually stack stuff up to the roof.   Even then the cargo floor of some CUV's is so high that some sedan trunks are taller inside than CUV trunks from floor to ceiling.

Edited June 1, 2022 by regfootball

[Drew Dowdell]

Where my parents live the roads are very flat and very straight, yet every time I’m there there are multiple SUVs laying tits up on the median.

[oldshurst442]

4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

While I agreed with most of what you said up until this point. CUV's aren't just toppling over while spiritedly driving. 

Yes, there are rollover issued but that's in collisions with things, not just on their own. 

Well...obviously...nothing rolls over by itself. Other than maybe a...ball?

Spirited driving with stability control will allow higher speeds of spirited driving with CUVs. Yes...its true.

But physics comes into play one way or other.

*SIGH*

CUVs have a higher center of gravity because they are a TALLER vehicle. The wheelbase is not longer than an equivalent sedan so the tipping point of that equivalent CUV is less forgiving...  

Its physics....

No matter how you guys wanna dissect it, its physics....   

 

[oldshurst442]

https://mathspig.wordpress.com/tag/centre-of-gravity/

 

So the Lamobgini Diablo is very hard to roll (build a higher ramp) and it therefore beats the SUV for stability every time.

 Definition of Center of Gravity...

 

 

[ccap41]

14 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

The wheelbase is not longer than an equivalent sedan so the tipping point of that equivalent CUV is less forgiving...  

Wheelbase is irrelevant with rolling over. You may be thinking of a wider track? 

[oldshurst442]

4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Wheelbase is irrelevant with rolling over. You may be thinking of a wider track? 

No.

Wheelbase is a factor too.   Although I should have mentioned track as well...

Breaking hard, the vehicle yaws forward. Combine that with a turn, and a shorter wheelbase and the handling is destabilized.  Combine that with a higher center of gravity and a roll over may ensue.

Both play a part. .  A car has 2 critical movements in the 3rd dimension  that influence handling characteristics.

1. side to side movement.  Track and height affect this. 

2. Front and back movement.  Wheelbase and weight distribution affect this motion. 

 

https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2010/wp29grrf/AMEVSC-03-03e.pdf