GM Posts $39 BILLION loss for Last Year

[Dragon]

CNN has a headline that says that GM is going to post a $39 billion loss last year. Not a huge surprise, as it pretty much all came in a write off from the third quarter against future tax credits

[RJB]

GM posts 4Q loss on North America slump, GMAC

Reuters

February 12, 2008 - 7:30 am ET

DETROIT (Reuters) -- General Motors today said it posted a quarterly loss reflecting a slump in its North American market and losses at former finance subsidiary GMAC.

GM posted a net loss of $722 million in the fourth quarter, compared with net income of $950 million a year earlier.

But when excluding one-time charges, GM finished the quarter with adjusted net income of $46 million, compared with adjusted net income of $180 million during the same quarter of 2006.

Revenue fell to $47.09 billion, from $50.8 billion in the same quarter a year earlier.

For all of 2007, GM said its adjusted net loss was $23 million compared with an adjusted net gain of $2.2 billion in 2006.

But, as previously announced, GM took a massive $38.7 billion charge for how it calculated certain tax assets. As a result, GM's net loss was an all-time record $38.7 billion.

GM's core automotive unit posted an adjusted $553 million gain for the year compared with an adjusted $339 million loss in 2006.

"GM's worldwide vehicle sales increased 3 percent, or 277,000 units, to 9.4 million vehicles in 2007, marking the second best year in units sold in the company's 100-year history," the company said in a statement. "For the third consecutive year, a majority of the company's sales -- almost 60 percent -- were outside of the U.S."

Philip Nussel contributed to this report

Edited February 12, 2008 by RJB

[6t5frlane]

GM posts 4Q loss on North America slump, GMAC

Reuters

February 12, 2008 - 7:30 am ET

DETROIT (Reuters) -- General Motors today said it posted a quarterly loss reflecting a slump in its North American market and losses at former finance subsidiary GMAC.

GM posted a net loss of $722 million in the fourth quarter, compared with net income of $950 million a year earlier.

But when excluding one-time charges, GM finished the quarter with adjusted net income of $46 million, compared with adjusted net income of $180 million during the same quarter of 2006.

Revenue fell to $47.09 billion, from $50.8 billion in the same quarter a year earlier.

For all of 2007, GM said its adjusted net loss was $23 million compared with an adjusted net gain of $2.2 billion in 2006.

But, as previously announced, GM took a massive $38.7 billion charge for how it calculated certain tax assets. As a result, GM's net loss was an all-time record $38.7 billion.

GM's core automotive unit posted an adjusted $553 million gain for the year compared with an adjusted $339 million loss in 2006.

"GM's worldwide vehicle sales increased 3 percent, or 277,000 units, to 9.4 million vehicles in 2007, marking the second best year in units sold in the company's 100-year history," the company said in a statement. "For the third consecutive year, a majority of the company's sales -- almost 60 percent -- were outside of the U.S."

Philip Nussel contributed to this report

WOW The largest loss by any Auto Company ever. Sold 3,000 more car/ then Toyota. How sad. The General will be a Major soon at this rate. The Big 3 are in for a rough ride.

[Drew Dowdell]

it's a paper loss....

[enzl]

it's a paper loss....

C'mon man. GM's already got a ton of people on payroll to apologize.

They sold more cars & barely broke even operationally, not on paper.

Sorry. That's not good.

PS-That 'on paper' loss indicates their lack of confidence that they'll see profits of any magnitude for the foreseeable future---that's not good, either.

[Drew Dowdell]

C'mon man. GM's already got a ton of people on payroll to apologize.

They sold more cars & barely broke even operationally, not on paper.

Sorry. That's not good.

PS-That 'on paper' loss indicates their lack of confidence that they'll see profits of any magnitude for the foreseeable future---that's not good, either.

GM's core automotive unit posted an adjusted $553 million gain for the year compared with an adjusted $339 million loss in 2006.

[VenSeattle]

More info...

GM posts biggest annual US auto loss

February 12, 2008 11:36 AM ET

Source: MSN Money; Associated Press

DETROIT (AP) - General Motors Corp. reported a $38.7 billion loss for 2007 on Tuesday, the largest annual loss ever for an automotive company, and said it is making a new round of buyout offers to U.S. hourly workers in hopes of replacing some of them with lower-paid help.

The earnings report and buyout offer came as GM struggles to turn around its North American business as the economy weakens.

But GM Chairman and Chief Executive Rick Wagoner said that the company made significant progress in 2007, reducing structural costs in North America, negotiating a historic labor agreement and growing aggressively in Latin America and Asia.

During a conference call with analysts and media, Chief Financial Officer Fritz Henderson said 2008 will be difficult, but the company sees the potential for significant earnings increases by 2010 or 2011 once it reduces its work force and labor costs and transfers its retiree health-care costs to a new UAW-run trust.

The Detroit-based automaker said it was offering a new round of buyouts to all 74,000 of its U.S. hourly workers who are represented by the United Auto Workers.

GM won't say how many workers it hopes to shed, but under its new contract with the UAW, it will be able to replace up to 16,000 workers doing non-assembly jobs with new employees who will be paid half the old wage of $28 per hour.

Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC already have announced similar buyout offers.

Henderson said GM's offer is "reasonably attractive," and the company raised the amount it was offering to match Ford and Chrysler. He said GM wants to implement lower wages as well as lower its overall worker headcount.

"We have a substantial amount we can do in terms of transformation of the work force," he said.

GM shares rose 44 cents to $27.56 in late morning trading.

GM's annual loss of $38.7 billion largely was due to a third-quarter charge related to unused tax credits.

The 2007 loss topped GM's previous record in 1992, when the company lost $23.4 billion because of a change in health care accounting, according to Standard & Poor's Compustat.

Excluding the tax charge and other special items, GM lost $23 million, or 40 cents per share, for the year, compared with a net income of $2.2 billion in 2006, beating Wall Street's expectations. Analysts polled by Thomson Financial expected GM to post a full-year loss of 95 cents per share.

For the fourth quarter, GM posted a loss of $722 million, or $1.28 per share, in the fourth quarter, compared with a net income of $950 million in the year-ago quarter. Fourth-quarter charges included $622 million to Delphi Corp., GM's former parts division, for its restructuring efforts, and a gain of $1.6 billion because of tax credits related to GM's pension liabilities and the sale of GM's Allison Transmission unit.

GM reported $181 billion in revenues for the year, down from $206 billion in 2006. Its automotive business saw record automotive revenues of $178 billion in 2007, up $7 billion from a year ago thanks to growth in emerging markets and favorable exchange rates.

GM was profitable in every region outside North America. GM's Latin America, Middle East and Africa division reported a record $1.3 billion in earnings, more than double that of 2006. GM's Asia Pacific division earned $744 million, up from $403 million in 2006, while GM Europe reported a profit of $55 million, down from a profit of $357 million in 2006.

But GM's North American division continued to struggle, posting a $1.5 billion loss for the year, nearly identical to its $1.6 billion loss in 2006. GM's North American division also reported a loss of $1.1 billion in the fourth quarter, compared with a loss of $129 million in the year-ago quarter.

Wagoner said the weak U.S. economy and high commodity prices hurt turnaround efforts in North America. He said GM's decision to reduce low-profit sales to daily rental companies by 110,000 in 2007 also affected U.S. sales.

"We're pleased with the positive improvement trend in our automotive results, especially given the challenging conditions in important markets like the U.S. and Germany, but we have more work to do to achieve acceptable profitability and positive cash flow," Wagoner said in a statement.

GM's results also were dragged down by its 49 percent stake in GMAC Financial Services, which lost $2.3 billion in 2007. GM reported a $1.1 billion loss attributed to GMAC.

GM barely retained its title as the world's largest automaker in 2007, selling just 3,000 more vehicles than Toyota Motor Corp. GM sold a total of 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide, up 3 percent from the year before.

[siegen]

You gotta pay to play.

GM is doing the right thing by taking a loss now in order to stabilize in the future.

[regfootball]

exxon 40 billion profit

GM 39 billion loss

guess we know where the priorities are in this country

[enzl]

it's a paper loss....

Automotive Operations:

Sold $178BILLION of Autos

Made $553 MILLION on that stuff!

Return: .3%

Fantastic.

the 'Paper Loss' is an indicator of where things are going---there aren't overall profits expected for years---despite selling 60% overseas (exchange rate benefit), enormous growth in China & a supposed 'landmark deal' with the US Unions---Oh yea, the guys running GM should get a raise, right?

You & I would be fired for that performance...unless you work for GM.

Edited February 12, 2008 by enzl

[VenSeattle]

the 'Paper Loss' is an indicator of where things are going---there aren't overall profits expected for years---despite selling 60% overseas (exchange rate benefit), enormous growth in China & a supposed 'landmark deal' with the US Unions---Oh yea, the guys running GM should get a raise, right?

You & I would be fired for that performance...unless you work for GM.

You have to take into account what the conditions were before you got the job though.

GM announced when the "landmark deal" occurred, it would be 2-4 years before we'd see the impact.

I suppose you missed this part:

Excluding the tax charge and other special items, GM lost $23 million, or 40 cents per share, for the year, compared with a net income of $2.2 billion in 2006, beating Wall Street's expectations. Analysts polled by Thomson Financial expected GM to post a full-year loss of 95 cents per share.

Is GM profitable in all other markets other than the US? Yes

Is GM reducing unprofitable fleet sales? Yes

Is GM reducing the amount of dealerships in the US? Yes

Is GM closing factories in the US? Yes

Is GM gaining concessions from the NA Unions? Yes

Is GM reducing labor in the US? Yes

Is GM increasing the speed it introduces new models? Yes

Is GM improving quality, reliability, reputation? Yes

Is GM researching and introducing new technologies to help with fuel consumption/emissions? Yes

Is GM keeping up with emerging markets overseas? Yes

Is GM unifying all global divisions? Yes

Is GM in the best shape of the Detroit 3 Manufacturers? Yes

Is GM bleeding market share while the US market shrinks? So far, No

Is GM on the verge of Bankruptcy? No

You expect all the changes to be immediate, but you of all people should know that's impossible.

GM is headed in the right direction and Bad news is expected in the midst of restructuring.

[enzl]

You have to take into account what the conditions were before you got the job though.

GM announced when the "landmark deal" occurred, it would be 2-4 years before we'd see the impact.

I suppose you missed this part:

Is GM profitable in all other markets other than the US? Yes

Is GM reducing unprofitable fleet sales? Yes

Is GM reducing the amount of dealerships in the US? Yes

Is GM closing factories in the US? Yes

Is GM gaining concessions from the NA Unions? Yes

Is GM reducing labor in the US? Yes

Is GM increasing the speed it introduces new models? Yes

Is GM improving quality, reliability, reputation? Yes

Is GM researching and introducing new technologies to help with fuel consumption/emissions? Yes

Is GM keeping up with emerging markets overseas? Yes

Is GM unifying all global divisions? Yes

Is GM in the best shape of the Detroit 3 Manufacturers? Yes

Is GM bleeding market share while the US market shrinks? So far, No

Is GM on the verge of Bankruptcy? No

You expect all the changes to be immediate, but you of all people should know that's impossible.

GM is headed in the right direction and Bad news is expected in the midst of restructuring.

Hang on...am I supposed to congratulate the Rickster or "on The Fritz' for finally agreeing to the obvious?

You seem to forget that Mr. W is a GM lifer? He grows a set when the company is cirling the toilet and I'm supposed to be impressed?

GM has had a global footprint for years...now they wake up?

I also take issue with a number of your assertions:

-How profitable is GM outside the US?...judging by the facts, I'd say not too profitable...they booked an overall loss of $1.5B in the US and made 500 mill overall in cars...that's a 2 billion dollar profit on 60% of the 9.2 million vehicles produced.

-Are they reducing Fleeting? They claim they are in the US---but that issue seems to disappear periodically in the monthies here---and noone has explained what they're doing abroad---are they shifting the fleeting there? I don't iknow (neither do you) and I don't trust these guys-at all.

-They are still overdealered by about 30%...wanna guess what it's going to cost to get rid of them? Any idea what the cost from a PR perspective its going to be when old GM dealers sit empty with 'For Rent' signs all over the country?

-Do you know what it will cost to 'retire' all current high-wage Union emplyees? The buyout is greater than $62k from the last offer---for 74k employees---that's at least $4billion. How about the cost of closing old manufacturing sites? Environmental costs are unknown....and GM is solely on the hook for those as well.

-NA Union concessions will cost $, see above examples...and that contract isn't forever, in fact, it expires around the same time GM is claiming all the savings will kick in...what happens then?

-Less labor= GM killing more dependant communities? How many GM cars are going to be sold when neighborhoods look like Flint, MI?

-What new models? The Camaro has taken forever, the Impala future is up in the air---where is the product cadence you see at the import stores? The W is how old? C'mon...there is less product in the future, not more new product.

-GM's quality is up. Way up. That's the only thing I can 100% agree with. When you finally give a rat's ass, it shows, huh?

-Everyone is researching tech---GM R&D is nowhere near the best in the world. How many truly innovative techs have come out of GM recently?

-Emerging markets, by definition, have dramatic effects on sales...GM's growth in China is impressive, but it's early and their gov't could shut the door at any time! You want to rely on a Commie Dictatorship for your future profit engine?

-Global Company-congrats, they finally realized that...only Ford has been dumber on that front.

-Wow--they're better off than Ford or Chrysler!---that's like being the Valedictorian on the 'Short Bus" --Is water wet? Or the sky blue, too?

-They are treading water in a declining market, thus maintaining share...remember, they were wearing 30% pins over at the tubes a few years ago...What happened to that promise? 25% of the market with 8 brands---fantastic.

-Bankruptcy is a distinct possibility-still. Ask any accountant. One terrorist attack, one 'Black Monday' on wall Street, Housing Market collapse (all possible) means goodbye GM.

I don't expect immediate results, I just wonder how a continued failing management team has kept jobs. I'm sick of being afraid to chnage. Let Lutz be a car czar....and dump everyone else---

there is no evidence that the 'turnaround' is really working. Jan 08 figures are up--when compared to an atrocious Jan 07--look it up.

I'm not anti-GM, I'm anti-RW, Fritz and the Board of Bystanders--all allowing the slow decline of one of the greatest modern industrial concerns with Golden Parachutes on their backs.

[VenSeattle]

-How profitable is GM outside the US?...judging by the facts, I'd say not too profitable...they booked an overall loss of $1.5B in the US and made 500 mill overall in cars...that's a 2 billion dollar profit on 60% of the 9.2 million vehicles produced.

How profitable was GM outside of the US 10 years ago? Once again, look at how things looked when he took over.

-Are they reducing Fleeting? They claim they are in the US---but that issue seems to disappear periodically in the monthies here---and noone has explained what they're doing abroad---are they shifting the fleeting there? I don't iknow (neither do you) and I don't trust these guys-at all.

You can’t condemn them without basis. GM is reducing fleet sales in the US where they’re losing money and have too much capacity. GM is reducing fleet sales. GM is reducing capacity. These are positives.

-They are still overdealered by about 30%...wanna guess what it's going to cost to get rid of them? Any idea what the cost from a PR perspective its going to be when old GM dealers sit empty with 'For Rent' signs all over the country?

Since GM is targeting to consolidate in urban markets, especially where the realestate is expensive, I don’t think too many “for rent” signs will be up. Most of those properties (like in my area) are already sold pending development once the permits are received and zoning laws are changed.

-Do you know what it will cost to 'retire' all current high-wage Union emplyees? The buyout is greater than $62k from the last offer---for 74k employees---that's at least $4billion. How about the cost of closing old manufacturing sites? Environmental costs are unknown....and GM is solely on the hook for those as well.

And GM is doing it! Is that a complaint? It’s a tough choice but GM is making the right decision.

-NA Union concessions will cost $, see above examples...and that contract isn't forever, in fact, it expires around the same time GM is claiming all the savings will kick in...what happens then?

Won’t matter - smaller UAW footprint, lower wages, less plants, balanced demand/capacity. Profitability should be recovering by then as well.

-Less labor= GM killing more dependant communities? How many GM cars are going to be sold when neighborhoods look like Flint, MI?

You can’t have it both ways. GM’s charitable attributes and dedication to the small communities (that it helped develop) are both part of what trapped GM in the position it's in now. GM must break certain loyalties to survive. As you’ve said often, GM is a business. Now you’re upset because GM is making babies cry.

Toyota, Honda, and Nissan would have no remorse closing a plant in a rural community down south if they didn't have a need for it. It's just business.

-What new models? The Camaro has taken forever, the Impala future is up in the air---where is the product cadence you see at the import stores? The W is how old? C'mon...there is less product in the future, not more new product.

Speed to market was what I commented on. The Kappas took how long? The Traverse was not part of the original Lambda plan, and now it comes out this fall? The GMT900s, Malibu remodel, Aura replacement, Delta II with the Cobalt replacement, etc… etc… etc…. All have come much quicker than the old GM could have ever dreamed.

-GM's quality is up. Way up. That's the only thing I can 100% agree with. When you finally give a rat's ass, it shows, huh?

What matters? THE PRODUCT. Quality is extremely important. Considering what was pumped out of GM for 20 years prior, this is a huge accomplishment.

-Everyone is researching tech---GM R&D is nowhere near the best in the world. How many truly innovative techs have come out of GM recently?

As many as everyone else… there hasn’t been much going on that GM wasn’t already involved in. Most manufacturers are 1to2 years within each other these days. GM's R&D is nowhere near the worst either.

[VenSeattle]

-Emerging markets, by definition, have dramatic effects on sales...GM's growth in China is impressive, but it's early and their gov't could shut the door at any time! You want to rely on a Commie Dictatorship for your future profit engine?

Once again, dismissing GM's success where others are failing/ have failed. Using hypothetical reasoning to predict/hope it will fall apart?

-Global Company-congrats, they finally realized that...only Ford has been dumber on that front.

It’s a legitimate and radical change under RW. Live with it.

-Wow--they're better off than Ford or Chrysler!---that's like being the Valedictorian on the 'Short Bus" --Is water wet? Or the sky blue, too?

They’re all dealing with similar issues, but very differently. GM’s leadership has been and still is paving the way for the others. The Success and accomplishments at Ford and Chrysler is gauged by how many years they’re behind GM’s turn-around.

-They are treading water in a declining market, thus maintaining share...remember, they were wearing 30% pins over at the tubes a few years ago...What happened to that promise? 25% of the market with 8 brands---fantastic.

Yet GM sold more cars last year than ever before in history? US Market share is just a percentage. How many cars did GM sell in the US back when it had 30%? 40%? 50%? Yeah…

-Bankruptcy is a distinct possibility-still. Ask any accountant. One terrorist attack, one 'Black Monday' on wall Street, Housing Market collapse (all possible) means goodbye GM.

HAHA! That’s the case for anyone doing business right now, even financial stable companies. Quit with your sensationalism and come back to reality! Once again, using hypothetical reasoning to predict/hope it will fall apart?

I'm not anti-GM, I'm anti-RW, Fritz and the Board of Bystanders--all allowing the slow decline of one of the greatest modern industrial concerns with Golden Parachutes on their backs.

GM is an industrial dinosaur that needs RW & Co to bring it into the 21st Century.

[ZL-1]

it's a paper loss....

Yes, it's a paper loss. But it tells us GM is not expecting significant profits over the next few years: more restructuring/downsizing. Look at the buyouts for 74K people they're seeking. 74k people is the number of employees represented by the UAW.

There's still a huge task ahead

[hyperv6]

First: off this is old news and the press just likes to have a big headline.

Second: GM NA was not expected or has anounced they will soon be profitable. The new car lines are just now hitting and it take time to right a ship GM's size.

Now if the CTS was a flopped, the Lamdas were just sitting on lots collecting dust or snow and the Malibu sold like a FWD Chrysler sedan this would be big news. We know where this is going and we will be ok in the end.

At least GM is not talking to a India auto company to sell Hummer to. Now The Jeep/Mahindra deal that would be Big News.

The next big GM news will be Toyota passing them for #1 this year. Another non issue. Toyota is going to win the second 125 qualifying race Thursday too another non issue.

THe bottom line is selling profitable high quality cars and we are now on the way but they don't want to talk much on that.

Edited February 12, 2008 by hyperv6

[enzl]

Ven-

I'm not hoping for anything negative, I'm just giving a realistic view....you're spinning everything in a positive light---and that's not going to be the reality.

GM isn't making much money anywhere. If you can predict the next 'bump in the road', that's great---but no-one can and thus being in a negative position during said occurance could mean curtains....that's just reality.

You cite a number of things that just aren't relevant. China could be gone tomorrow---many companies are having 'best ever' years there...check the sales figures. Ford and Chrysler aren't just 'behind' GM, they are in real, huge trouble--GM's fleeting in the US is down 100,000 units from '06...that's less than 9k/mo. difference---the US market has had record sales the last 5 years (more than ever historically) & GM has lost money nearly all of those years---don't dismiss the new globalism religion at GM as a positive, they're way behind the times--Perception is a huge part of GM's problem, so how is closing factories, killing towns & 'for rent' signs going to help that PR issue?---and how is the Union going to react, come next contract time? Nobody knows that, but GM is already counting on those savings, which could be wiped out with one short strike or work action---and, finally, GM's profitability outside of the US is everything NOW, as 60%! of sales are outside this country...check out how GME is doing to get an idea of how well GM is doing in mature markets outside the US, which all 'emerging' markets become at some point...

RW has presided over the largest failures in GM's history...if he wasn't CEO, he was at the top of upper management when the debacles that brought GM to their knees have been decided by his cohorts. He knew and participated in throwing away Billions for nothing-Fiat, Saab, Isuzu, Subaru, et al...I don't know about your workplace, but I'd be unemployed with that track record.

[CMG]

I'll stick to MY link, it's only a 37 billion dollar loss....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...NStory/Business

Gotta get people looking at actual cars and test driving actual cars, I know ALOT of people who won't even LOOK at a domestic nowadays....

[enzl]

First: off this is old news and the press just likes to have a big headline.

Second: GM NA was not expected or has anounced they will soon be profitable. The new car lines are just now hitting and it take time to right a ship GM's size.

Now if the CTS was a flopped, the Lamdas were just sitting on lots collecting dust or snow and the Malibu sold like a FWD Chrysler sedan this would be big news. We know where this is going and we will be ok in the end.

At least GM is not talking to a India auto company to sell Hummer to. Now The Jeep/Mahindra deal that would be Big News.

While I agree the press is having it's way with old news, there's nothing in the sales reports which indicates that GM's new product will stem the tide. Truck losses will wipe out any success the Lambdas, Malibu or CTS will have.

Where are the gains going to come from? Ep II is another year off, Delta II more than that, Volt is slated for '11 model year---the Aveo isn't going anywhere---Any Buick other than the Enclave isn't selling, Caddy is CTS+?, Pontiac has the g8 projected at half of the Grand Prix's sales--Saab is years from new product and Hummer is sinking like a stone with $3+ gas.

Explain how you 'cut' to prosperity? Other than Malibu (which is eating Impy sales) & Traverse, what does Chevy have? Saturn is barely selling 6 models at a volume that historically they did with 2/3.;..I just don't get it. I'm staring at the same tired line-up with a few stars that everyone else is...

[Chevy Nick]

While I agree the press is having it's way with old news, there's nothing in the sales reports which indicates that GM's new product will stem the tide. Truck losses will wipe out any success the Lambdas, Malibu or CTS will have.

Where are the gains going to come from? Ep II is another year off, Delta II more than that, Volt is slated for '11 model year---the Aveo isn't going anywhere---Any Buick other than the Enclave isn't selling, Caddy is CTS+?, Pontiac has the g8 projected at half of the Grand Prix's sales--Saab is years from new product and Hummer is sinking like a stone with $3+ gas.

Explain how you 'cut' to prosperity? Other than Malibu (which is eating Impy sales) & Traverse, what does Chevy have? Saturn is barely selling 6 models at a volume that historically they did with 2/3.;..I just don't get it. I'm staring at the same tired line-up with a few stars that everyone else is...

Despite all of enzl's negative outlook, GM was the only major manufacturer to post a sales increase last month, not Toyota, not Honda, not Ford, not Chrysler, not Nissan.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/01/by-the-...s-january-2008/

[VenSeattle]

Truck losses will wipe out any success the Lambdas, Malibu or CTS will have.

Prediction... even with increasing gas prices, trucks are a requirement for many US markets.

Ep II is another year off, Delta II more than that, Volt is slated for '11 model year---the Aveo isn't going anywhere---

Last reports indicated Epsilon II debuts this fall and will arrive ahead of schedule. Delta II begins production next year as well. GM will be building several variants off of Gamma.

Any Buick other than the Enclave isn't selling

Lucerne is still matching its competitors in sales volume. The LaCrosse will be replaced in a matter of months, not years.

Caddy is CTS+?

Escalade Hybrid just debuted, CT variants on their way, BRX debut, XLR receives refresh, Zeta Cadillac still coming.

Pontiac has the g8 projected at half of the Grand Prix's sales--

G8's projected sales are retail sales. The retail sales target exceeds the Grand Prix's which is heavily fleeted.

Saab is years from new product and Hummer is sinking like a stone with $3+ gas.

Can't help you with these except new product is coming. If something comes from virtually nothing, then there's a gain.

Other than Malibu (which is eating Impy sales)

January sales say otherwise. Impala's retail sales were up around 44%?? in January. Only fleet sales were down.

Other than Malibu (which is eating Impy sales) & Traverse, what does Chevy have?

Chevrolet is getting new Delta II and Gamma vehicles within the next two(?) years. Camaro. Equinox replacement. Volt in 2010. New large sedan (FWD) in 2010/2011.

Saturn is barely selling 6 models at a volume that historically they did with 2/3.;..I just don't get it. I'm staring at the same tired line-up with a few stars that everyone else is...

Can't help you there.

Honestly, I think you need to convince your dealer principle(s) to just sell the GM franchises.

[wildcat]

I'd feel more comfortable if a trend of GM sales increases develops, not just one month.

I don't think enzl is being negative, nor is he twisting things around. Someone at GM has to take responsibility for things, and I don't only mean step up and smile when things are good.

What will the average US consumer likely say when they read the headline "GM Posts $39B Loss" etc.? Will they consider GM in a positive or negative light?

That said, if Mr. Wagoner was removed, who is there to do any better of a job? And why, too, if GME is so powerful in the corporate scheme of things, why don't they send someone of their choosing into the top spot at GMNA?

Edited February 12, 2008 by wildcat

[CARBIZ]

Well, that is exactly the point, isn't it: the media has dug the same old skeleton out of the closet (didn't we already debate this 'loss' back in November?) to beat GM with, just when it was beginning to look like Detroit finally was getting a road block up to Japan Inc. Strange coincidence, that, no?

Doom and gloom sells papers, plain and simple. There are a lot of nasty things going on in the U.S. market right now. Wagoner & Co. are not responsible for that. I would be more inclined to be harsher on them IF we weren't seeing a huge renaissance in product. I have not seen such interest in a vehicle as I have with the Malibu. I can say that I have had many, many Honda owners come to at least LOOK. That is a huge accomplishment.

What would be the proper course of action, Enzl? Fire Wagoner NOW? How is that going to improve things? Mullaly's impact on Ford is in its infancy. Cerebrus is having apoploxy. I can't see how changing the captain of the ship, this far out to sea is going to benefit anyone.

A lot of American icons have had to reinvent themselves. Look at IBM and what it does today, compared to 25 years ago. GM is first and foremost a MANUFACTURING compay; worse than that, it is an AMERICAN manufacturing company. Take a look around at the ruins of what was once Industrial America. Name one American manufacturing company that is doing well right now. Those that are surviving are doing so by 'off-shoring' everything.

I don't envy the position Wagoner & Co. face. They have impatient WallStreet on one side, Japan Inc. on another, and the apathy of the North American public to contend with. IBM sold its manufacturing base to Russia. Is that the solution here?

I think we need to be a little more patient with the product. I like very much what I am seeing with that , at least. 2008 will be nasty by any measure. Let's all survive that, then reconvene this tired subject in 14 months or so and see what is what.

[enzl]

Despite all of enzl's negative outlook, GM was the only major manufacturer to post a sales increase last month, not Toyota, not Honda, not Ford, not Chrysler, not Nissan.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/01/by-the-...s-january-2008/

Check the January 07 figures that they are comparing them to...Jan07 was awful for GM, therefore an improvement isn't the evidence one culd use to argue they've 'turned the corner'

[enzl]

Well, that is exactly the point, isn't it: the media has dug the same old skeleton out of the closet (didn't we already debate this 'loss' back in November?) to beat GM with, just when it was beginning to look like Detroit finally was getting a road block up to Japan Inc. Strange coincidence, that, no?

Doom and gloom sells papers, plain and simple. There are a lot of nasty things going on in the U.S. market right now. Wagoner & Co. are not responsible for that. I would be more inclined to be harsher on them IF we weren't seeing a huge renaissance in product. I have not seen such interest in a vehicle as I have with the Malibu. I can say that I have had many, many Honda owners come to at least LOOK. That is a huge accomplishment.

What would be the proper course of action, Enzl? Fire Wagoner NOW? How is that going to improve things? Mullaly's impact on Ford is in its infancy. Cerebrus is having apoploxy. I can't see how changing the captain of the ship, this far out to sea is going to benefit anyone.

A lot of American icons have had to reinvent themselves. Look at IBM and what it does today, compared to 25 years ago. GM is first and foremost a MANUFACTURING compay; worse than that, it is an AMERICAN manufacturing company. Take a look around at the ruins of what was once Industrial America. Name one American manufacturing company that is doing well right now. Those that are surviving are doing so by 'off-shoring' everything.

I don't envy the position Wagoner & Co. face. They have impatient WallStreet on one side, Japan Inc. on another, and the apathy of the North American public to contend with. IBM sold its manufacturing base to Russia. Is that the solution here?

I think we need to be a little more patient with the product. I like very much what I am seeing with that , at least. 2008 will be nasty by any measure. Let's all survive that, then reconvene this tired subject in 14 months or so and see what is what.

Yes.

I am stating that Wagoner should be fired. So should Fritz---and the Board clearly needs fresh blood.

If the 09 product is as good as recent intros, a new captain will do no harm, rather it will shake up the complacency that afflicts GM &, perhaps, give the rest of the world an indication that GM means business, not more of the same.

Wolfgang B.'s unemployed, no? There's go to be others out there that can bring some new ideas....

[CMG]

Check the January 07 figures that they are comparing them to...Jan07 was awful for GM, therefore an improvement isn't the evidence one culd use to argue they've 'turned the corner'

Yup, just as '$39,000,000,000 loss" can be called "that's on paper only", so too can all the "turning the corner" rhetoric.

It's PERCEPTION, and as enzl seems to say, it's sometimes in the eye of the beholder...

[Robert Hall]

Yes.

I am stating that Wagoner should be fired. So should Fritz---and the Board clearly needs fresh blood.

They need to dump the lifers..they have proven ineffective. New blood would help the company in the long term.

Edited February 13, 2008 by moltar

[enzl]

Prediction... even with increasing gas prices, trucks are a requirement for many US markets.

Last reports indicated Epsilon II debuts this fall and will arrive ahead of schedule. Delta II begins production next year as well. GM will be building several variants off of Gamma.

Lucerne is still matching its competitors in sales volume. The LaCrosse will be replaced in a matter of months, not years.

Escalade Hybrid just debuted, CT variants on their way, BRX debut, XLR receives refresh, Zeta Cadillac still coming.

G8's projected sales are retail sales. The retail sales target exceeds the Grand Prix's which is heavily fleeted.

Can't help you with these except new product is coming. If something comes from virtually nothing, then there's a gain.

January sales say otherwise. Impala's retail sales were up around 44%?? in January. Only fleet sales were down.

Chevrolet is getting new Delta II and Gamma vehicles within the next two(?) years. Camaro. Equinox replacement. Volt in 2010. New large sedan (FWD) in 2010/2011.

Can't help you there.

Honestly, I think you need to convince your dealer principle(s) to just sell the GM franchises.

You don't get it. That's fine.

GM has no further 08's coming...Trucks are not selling at projected rates...the Lucerne is an also-ran you're comparing to the Avalon (Toyota's worst product, arguably), the Escalade Hybrid will have miniscule availability (GMT900 SUV Hybrid production for 08 limited to 10k), the CT coupe is a '10, as is the BRX--meanwhile DTS & STS are not doing much, the G8 will still sell less than 1/2 volume of the GP, Impala's Jan 08 sales up 44% retail from a dismal Jan 07 (#'s can 'prove' anything), the Delta II + Aveo replacements are '10 (at best), the Camaro is already years late, the 'nox is dropping sales in a hot segment, the Volt is an '11 (at best) & the Impy replacement has barely been decided on (Zeta v. Ep II LWB)

We are the largest GM volume dealer in our region. We have regularly been between 90% and 120% of target sales (for 5 yrs.). Out Chevy store is probably one of the most profitable in the US, so, NO, we won't be selling anytime soon. Thanks for the advice, though. Not boasting, just trying to make the case that I'm not a hater, I just speak as an officer in a highly successful GM franchise that sees what is wrong without holding back.

--we have earned the right to criticize the mgmt of GM. Our 400+ employees deserve better. And so does everyone on this board that considers themselves a fan.

[Camino LS6]

Well, this "news" isn't news at all - we've known about it for how long now?

As such, it doesn't call for any "action" to "fix" it.

What is news is :

-Sales are up in a down market (again). While the rest are down.

-New product that is both critically accalimed and selling well

-an actual profit was made once the one-time issues are excluded.

-the pace of new intros is being maintained, and quite a few new cars will be replaced long before they get old.

- last time I checked, the trucks had dropped in sales less than expected.

You all know the drill.

BTW: Wall St. seems pretty happy with GM's progress.

Take a look at who's been up over the last six months. And who hasn't been.

GM will be just fine.

[daves87rs]

Well, that is exactly the point, isn't it: the media has dug the same old skeleton out of the closet (didn't we already debate this 'loss' back in November?) to beat GM with, just when it was beginning to look like Detroit finally was getting a road block up to Japan Inc. Strange coincidence, that, no?

Doom and gloom sells papers, plain and simple. There are a lot of nasty things going on in the U.S. market right now. Wagoner & Co. are not responsible for that. I would be more inclined to be harsher on them IF we weren't seeing a huge renaissance in product. I have not seen such interest in a vehicle as I have with the Malibu. I can say that I have had many, many Honda owners come to at least LOOK. That is a huge accomplishment.

What would be the proper course of action, Enzl? Fire Wagoner NOW? How is that going to improve things? Mullaly's impact on Ford is in its infancy. Cerebrus is having apoploxy. I can't see how changing the captain of the ship, this far out to sea is going to benefit anyone.

A lot of American icons have had to reinvent themselves. Look at IBM and what it does today, compared to 25 years ago. GM is first and foremost a MANUFACTURING compay; worse than that, it is an AMERICAN manufacturing company. Take a look around at the ruins of what was once Industrial America. Name one American manufacturing company that is doing well right now. Those that are surviving are doing so by 'off-shoring' everything.

I don't envy the position Wagoner & Co. face. They have impatient WallStreet on one side, Japan Inc. on another, and the apathy of the North American public to contend with. IBM sold its manufacturing base to Russia. Is that the solution here?

I think we need to be a little more patient with the product. I like very much what I am seeing with that , at least. 2008 will be nasty by any measure. Let's all survive that, then reconvene this tired subject in 14 months or so and see what is what.

Agreed.

And it looks like the economy is heading for a nasty recession....

Right now GM has more imoprtant things to worry about...like if people can still afford to buy cars. And no, that is not a joke.....

The prices of everything is going though the roof...WS is talking 4, 5 dollar gas, insurance rates are again on the rise...

There are still many issues on the side...hell, people can't even afford their homes any more.....

GM needs to keep putting out good products, and keep that ball rolling.....

The real question is whether GM can make a profit with all the issues here in NA....

[daves87rs]

You don't get it. That's fine.

GM has no further 08's coming...Trucks are not selling at projected rates...the Lucerne is an also-ran you're comparing to the Avalon (Toyota's worst product, arguably), the Escalade Hybrid will have miniscule availability (GMT900 SUV Hybrid production for 08 limited to 10k), the CT coupe is a '10, as is the BRX--meanwhile DTS & STS are not doing much, the G8 will still sell less than 1/2 volume of the GP, Impala's Jan 08 sales up 44% retail from a dismal Jan 07 (#'s can 'prove' anything), the Delta II + Aveo replacements are '10 (at best), the Camaro is already years late, the 'nox is dropping sales in a hot segment, the Volt is an '11 (at best) & the Impy replacement has barely been decided on (Zeta v. Ep II LWB)

We are the largest GM volume dealer in our region. We have regularly been between 90% and 120% of target sales (for 5 yrs.). Out Chevy store is probably one of the most profitable in the US, so, NO, we won't be selling anytime soon. Thanks for the advice, though. Not boasting, just trying to make the case that I'm not a hater, I just speak as an officer in a highly successful GM franchise that sees what is wrong without holding back.

--we have earned the right to criticize the mgmt of GM. Our 400+ employees deserve better. And so does everyone on this board that considers themselves a fan.

Well, that is great and all, but GM needs to take care of it's itself as a company-not worried about what a dealership thinks....

Again, it's about the product. Whether there is a lot or a little of it. If the product isn't good enough-then you won't have to worry about your dealership.....

[daves87rs]

Well, this "news" isn't news at all - we've known about it for how long now?

As such, it doesn't call for any "action" to "fix" it.

What is news is :

-Sales are up in a down market (again). While the rest are down.

-New product that is both critically accalimed and selling well

-an actual profit was made once the one-time issues are excluded.

-the pace of new intros is being maintained, and quite a few new cars will be replaced long before they get old.

- last time I checked, the trucks had dropped in sales less than expected.

You all know the drill.

BTW: Wall St. seems pretty happy with GM's progress.

Take a look at who's been up over the last six months. And who hasn't been.

GM will be just fine.

Quoted for truth.

How soon GM makes money will depend of the economy though....

[GXT]

I couldn't figure out the discrepancy in GM's 2006 fleet sales numbers between this year's report and last... then I noticed that last year's report reported "Worldwide Retail/Fleet Mix" whereas this year's report contains "U.S. Retail/Fleet Mix".

The "good" news is that they managed to go from 26.9% in 2006 to 26.1% in 2007. The bad news is that one has to question why they are changing the scope of the numbers.

[enzl]

Well, that is great and all, but GM needs to take care of it's itself as a company-not worried about what a dealership thinks....

Again, it's about the product. Whether there is a lot or a little of it. If the product isn't good enough-then you won't have to worry about your dealership.....

Dealerships aren't important to what GM is trying to do?

They shouldn't be worried about what a successful franchisee thinks?

If they have no $, there are no products, sir.

Poor product cadence (which is certainly a shared concern?) is part of GM's problem and part of why they cannot recapture market share.

[daves87rs]

Dealerships aren't important to what GM is trying to do?

They shouldn't be worried about what a successful franchisee thinks?

If they have no $, there are no products, sir.

Poor product cadence (which is certainly a shared concern?) is part of GM's problem and part of why they cannot recapture market share.

They need to worry less about market share and more about making those products the best they can....

Dealerships can be important, but they are also the reason why products like the G5 and Torrent are out there.....when they really shouldn't be.

Global platforms will help key in on that solution....but, it is going to take time....

[Polish_Kris]

exxon 40 billion profit

GM 39 billion loss

guess we know where the priorities are in this country

DUH.....

Wonder why the "war" in Iraq started... right... ?

[Polish_Kris]

Automotive Operations:

Sold $178BILLION of Autos

Made $553 MILLION on that stuff!

Return: .3%

Fantastic.

the 'Paper Loss' is an indicator of where things are going---there aren't overall profits expected for years---despite selling 60% overseas (exchange rate benefit), enormous growth in China & a supposed 'landmark deal' with the US Unions---Oh yea, the guys running GM should get a raise, right?

You & I would be fired for that performance...unless you work for GM.

Very true

[/url]

I know ALOT of people who won't even LOOK at a domestic nowadays....

Why do you think that? I know plenty of people who like domestics.

I would be more inclined to be harsher on them IF we weren't seeing a huge renaissance in product. I have not seen such interest in a vehicle as I have with the Malibu. I can say that I have had many, many Honda owners come to at least LOOK. That is a huge accomplishment.

Because the media that you love to bash, is shinning some positive light on the new Malibu.

[enzl]

They need to worry less about market share and more about making those products the best they can....

Dealerships can be important, but they are also the reason why products like the G5 and Torrent are out there.....when they really shouldn't be.

Global platforms will help key in on that solution....but, it is going to take time....

MY point was that RF has been a GM lifer. GM has had international operations for, what, 60 years?

And they're just waking up to the possibilities available to a company with a global footprint?

You and I would not have jobs. Mr. Wagoner's Great-grandchildren are guaranteed millionaires. That's absurd and insulting....

I'm not arguing that badge-jobs are good or that great product isn't the key--but there's not enough of it and the timing may doom the company--well past the right time to get a real 21st century leader in place, IMO.

[GXT]

At the end of 2006 GM was worth -5.6 Billion. At the end of 2007 they were worth -37 Billion. If GM manages to make some profits for a couple of decades perhaps they can get back to $0 (i.e. worthless).

You could call it a paper loss in 2007. But then you could also call it paper assets in the previous years.

[ZL-1]

At the end of 2006 GM was worth -5.6 Billion. At the end of 2007 they were worth -37 Billion. If GM manages to make some profits for a couple of decades perhaps they can get back to $0 (i.e. worthless).

You could call it a paper loss in 2007. But then you could also call it paper assets in the previous years.

GM isn't worth -$37billion, even if that shows up on the balance sheet as the stockholders equity value. First, nothing can be worth less than zero; second, since GM is publicly traded, GM is worth whatever its market cap is at any given moment.

[CARBIZ]

Enzl, you sound worse than my last employer: all doom and gloom. I know all about sales targets and how artificial they can be. Sold 300 vehicles last year? How about 320 this year? Triple Crown is full of those. I've seen dealers with their doors barely open and creditors at the door acheive their sales targets for the year.

I wonder how much of your attitude seeps out to those around you. Or are you reserving your sunny disposition for us?

If you call the new Aveo 5 and the upcoming Traverse 'nothing' for 2008, then your standards are mighty high, indeed.

To address your other point, yes, GM has been a global company for decades. However, if you really studied automotive history, as I have, you would realize that before WWII, the automotive world really was one huge market. After WWII, while Europe dug itself out of the Dark Ages and South America sank into decades of corruption and morass, Detroit can be forgiven for thinking itself above it all, as the '50s, '60s and '70s saw unparallaled growth and changes. Shrinking resources and the global economy are bringing the automotive world closer together once again. I think Wagoner 'gets it.' He has worked in South America. He as seen how other markets (with fewer resources and stability) behave. Did he not have the foresight to bring Lutz back from exile?

Look at how people on this board scream and stomp their feet because their precious V-8 might be going away! Can you imagine what Wagoner faces every day in Detroit and at other plants around North America? Americans are many, many things, but open to foreign ideas is not one of them.

If GM was shooting a fixed target, then I would say you have a very strong point. However, what is happening in the past 5 years in North America is a fork in the road. Ten years ago when pickups and SUVs were flying off the shelf, we would have been screaming blue murder if GM had been spending money on hybrids. Hindsight is always 20-20.

Sadly, GM is doing very well in all other markets, just not the ones we make our money in. GM is the Goliath being confonted by not one David, but several.

[enzl]

Enzl, you sound worse than my last employer: all doom and gloom. I know all about sales targets and how artificial they can be. Sold 300 vehicles last year? How about 320 this year? Triple Crown is full of those. I've seen dealers with their doors barely open and creditors at the door acheive their sales targets for the year.

I wonder how much of your attitude seeps out to those around you. Or are you reserving your sunny disposition for us?

If you call the new Aveo 5 and the upcoming Traverse 'nothing' for 2008, then your standards are mighty high, indeed.

To address your other point, yes, GM has been a global company for decades. However, if you really studied automotive history, as I have, you would realize that before WWII, the automotive world really was one huge market. After WWII, while Europe dug itself out of the Dark Ages and South America sank into decades of corruption and morass, Detroit can be forgiven for thinking itself above it all, as the '50s, '60s and '70s saw unparallaled growth and changes. Shrinking resources and the global economy are bringing the automotive world closer together once again. I think Wagoner 'gets it.' He has worked in South America. He as seen how other markets (with fewer resources and stability) behave. Did he not have the foresight to bring Lutz back from exile?

Look at how people on this board scream and stomp their feet because their precious V-8 might be going away! Can you imagine what Wagoner faces every day in Detroit and at other plants around North America? Americans are many, many things, but open to foreign ideas is not one of them.

If GM was shooting a fixed target, then I would say you have a very strong point. However, what is happening in the past 5 years in North America is a fork in the road. Ten years ago when pickups and SUVs were flying off the shelf, we would have been screaming blue murder if GM had been spending money on hybrids. Hindsight is always 20-20.

Sadly, GM is doing very well in all other markets, just not the ones we make our money in. GM is the Goliath being confonted by not one David, but several.

First, my resume is immaterial to this conversation, other than the fact that I'm in the retail end of this industry--in a position where I oversee and review 16 different dealerships--Toyota, Nissan, Kia, Hyundai, Chevy, Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge, Ford Lincoln & Mercury---Some are well run, others not so much....

I'm very positive about My prospects--we're well positioned to weather whatever storm comes our way---we did that via expansion, acquisition of makes, improving real estate & extensive marketing. In other words, we're prepared--to say conditions are tough is to presume they weren't either anticipated or expected and I want to know why.

MY point is simply that GM hasn'tanticipated anything in 30+ years--and everything being offered up in their defense is an excuse or creative twist on the facts on the ground. A simple understanding of economics and accounting would lead any sane person to come to the same conclusion.

As for doom and gloom--if you were on a sinking ship, wouldn't you be better served by a crew that was moving quickly and efficiently to assist and warn? GM is listing, my brother, and quite frankly, they need more guys taking a critical eye to the situation at the Tubes...

You are entitled to disagree--but proper planning, be it economic, product or resource allocation, would have made GM much stronger--instead, its the same tune, different lyrics--wait for the new product, new quarter we'll get them, we're predicting a gain in marketshare, the new X is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Explain to me how the formerly largest Auto Producer in the World hasn't been profitable during the largest US sales market-ever?

How do you fumble that gift?

More importantly, how do let the figures at the top get away with that? I don't want to hear that RW hasn't been responsible for all of the problems--of course he hasn't--but his fingerprints are on enough of them that it should be over for him--remember, he's a lifer--and was in the executive suites when alot of these horrible decisions went down---and he stood by, because it was probably more important to him to become CEO one day than rock the boat. That who you want as the leader?

Please--I don't.

I'm sick of the fear mongers that dread change at the top--that's BS---not one product decision in the short term will be changed by removing Rick--but perhaps some long-term ones will be better with him gone. He couldn't manage the flush economic times, so what gives anyone the faith that he can handle truly tough challenges?

PS-The Traverse will mostly cannibalize t-blazer & tahoe sales, along with the other divisions Lambdas. And, I'm sorry, The Aveo is a joke--23 city MPG with an automatic tranny--especially with the superior Corsa and Meriva running around Europe for years.

If the Aveo is your idea of good product, please don't bother coming to the planning meetings.

Edited February 13, 2008 by enzl

[RJB]

So who do you suggest take over the helm from Rick & CO.?

[enzl]

So who do you suggest take over the helm from Rick & CO.?

Wolfgang Bernhardt, Carlos Ghosn or maybe some of the guys that have rescued Fiat (which is nearly miraculous)...or, how about pulling a Mullaly out of another industry?...the guys running Catepillar have done a fairly good job in a funky economy...

Or maybe there's a couple of guys in the executive offices at GM who aren't 'yes' men...guys who will never become CEO normally because GM is such a stilted, go along to get along type place. They know the current game plan well--maybe they know how to execute better--and you won't have the downtime of someone 'learning' the business.

You've got to take a chance on somebody, regardless---I don't believe that RW is the man for the 21st century. Think about it for 1 sec...he's NEVER worked elsewhere--how can you absorb 'best practices' when you've never seen them work? He's a lifer, a former lackey and boot licker that got to his position by NOT 'messing up."

Does that qualify one for the greatest job on the planet? I just don't think so.

[CARBIZ]

Firstly, I was referring to the upcoming Aveo, the one with the NEW MOTOR. The Traverse really is just a replacement for the Trailblazer: more modern and up to date. In fact, if the Trailblazer name wasn't so damaged around here, it might have been an idea to just call it the NG Trailblazer.

Secondly, Tahoes and Trailblazers haven't sold around here for years, so that is a non-starter. As I have said, GM needs to look to its 'foreign' holdings to see what the future holds. There is on 'foreign' holding right across the Detroit River with a wealth of information about what the world in the $5 a gallon will look like.

Thirdly, since GM's problems are only in North America, I fail to see how any of the Europeans will help out. Whatever the solution is going to be on this side of the pond, it will have to be an 'Americanized' version of what is happening Over There.

And, lastly, you yourself exemplify what is all wrong and right about our countries. The company that you work for long ago decided that this market was changing and hedged its bets by throwing in with the competition. Free markets and free enterprise are great on paper, but GM had the market share to lose and every half-baked car company on the planet is gunning for this market because it is The Biggest. It is also the most open. Perhaps that should change. It is great for you that your company(ies) have covered their bets, and to a certain extent, so has GM. I see conflicts of interest where-ever I go. That is the main reason my former company abandoned its GM store: conflicts of interest.

GM's problems are as diverse as the countries we live in. It is somewhat symbolic of the decline of North America, I am afraid. Most of our problems are of our own making, and most of them come from the hubris that we believe everyone else wants to be like us. The fact is that they don't.

So man those boats, and everyone for himself, because I think it is no truer today than it was 50 years ago: As goes General Motors, go we all.

[enzl]

Firstly, I was referring to the upcoming Aveo, the one with the NEW MOTOR. The Traverse really is just a replacement for the Trailblazer: more modern and up to date. In fact, if the Trailblazer name wasn't so damaged around here, it might have been an idea to just call it the NG Trailblazer.

Secondly, Tahoes and Trailblazers haven't sold around here for years, so that is a non-starter. As I have said, GM needs to look to its 'foreign' holdings to see what the future holds. There is on 'foreign' holding right across the Detroit River with a wealth of information about what the world in the $5 a gallon will look like.

Thirdly, since GM's problems are only in North America, I fail to see how any of the Europeans will help out. Whatever the solution is going to be on this side of the pond, it will have to be an 'Americanized' version of what is happening Over There.

And, lastly, you yourself exemplify what is all wrong and right about our countries. The company that you work for long ago decided that this market was changing and hedged its bets by throwing in with the competition. Free markets and free enterprise are great on paper, but GM had the market share to lose and every half-baked car company on the planet is gunning for this market because it is The Biggest. It is also the most open. Perhaps that should change. It is great for you that your company(ies) have covered their bets, and to a certain extent, so has GM. I see conflicts of interest where-ever I go. That is the main reason my former company abandoned its GM store: conflicts of interest.

GM's problems are as diverse as the countries we live in. It is somewhat symbolic of the decline of North America, I am afraid. Most of our problems are of our own making, and most of them come from the hubris that we believe everyone else wants to be like us. The fact is that they don't.

So man those boats, and everyone for himself, because I think it is no truer today than it was 50 years ago: As goes General Motors, go we all.

In other words, you agree with me, but you're loyalty keeps you from bashing GM, which, honestly, is admirable.

I don't view my company's position as anything but smart business and free enterprise at its best--but we didn't have a crystal ball--we just exercised common sense. That's the only standard I can hold GM to in this matter.

While GM Europe's small vehicles may not be immediate help, it confuses me that you would go through the development effort for a Delta or Ep sized vehicle and NOT coordinate your resources. If VW or MB can sell similar models to all parts of the globe, it stands to reason that GM can too...maybe the Golf becomes a Jetta here or MB sells 5% diesel rather than 40-50%+ in Europe, but it can and should be done. The Corsa would a great Saturn--or Aveo for that matter---source the production from Mexico if it can't be made here.

I'm a huge GM fan--but to stretch a sports analogy, I'm not a cheerleader with a goofy grin when the team's down by 50 points. Not in my nature. And I respect, even if I disagree, with your opinion and anyone else's here as well.

[daves87rs]

MY point was that RF has been a GM lifer. GM has had international operations for, what, 60 years?

And they're just waking up to the possibilities available to a company with a global footprint?

You and I would not have jobs. Mr. Wagoner's Great-grandchildren are guaranteed millionaires. That's absurd and insulting....

I'm not arguing that badge-jobs are good or that great product isn't the key--but there's not enough of it and the timing may doom the company--well past the right time to get a real 21st century leader in place, IMO.

I don't know if I would that they didn't know....though I do think that the UAW has made it harder to do what they want......

I guess too it would depend on the product...

Though I do agree with you on one part of the product plan....they need more small cars sooner...that could hurt them...

[daves87rs]

In other words, you agree with me, but you're loyalty keeps you from bashing GM, which, honestly, is admirable.

I don't view my company's position as anything but smart business and free enterprise at its best--but we didn't have a crystal ball--we just exercised common sense. That's the only standard I can hold GM to in this matter.

While GM Europe's small vehicles may not be immediate help, it confuses me that you would go through the development effort for a Delta or Ep sized vehicle and NOT coordinate your resources. If VW or MB can sell similar models to all parts of the globe, it stands to reason that GM can too...maybe the Golf becomes a Jetta here or MB sells 5% diesel rather than 40-50%+ in Europe, but it can and should be done. The Corsa would a great Saturn--or Aveo for that matter---source the production from Mexico if it can't be made here.

I'm a huge GM fan--but to stretch a sports analogy, I'm not a cheerleader with a goofy grin when the team's down by 50 points. Not in my nature. And I respect, even if I disagree, with your opinion and anyone else's here as well.

Now that would make sense..a Corsa would be great here.......

I can agree with bringing some of other countries cars here..until the product has caught up here...

[The O.C.]

You don't get it. That's fine.

GM has no further 08's coming...Trucks are not selling at projected rates...the Lucerne is an also-ran you're comparing to the Avalon (Toyota's worst product, arguably), the Escalade Hybrid will have miniscule availability (GMT900 SUV Hybrid production for 08 limited to 10k), the CT coupe is a '10, as is the BRX--meanwhile DTS & STS are not doing much, the G8 will still sell less than 1/2 volume of the GP, Impala's Jan 08 sales up 44% retail from a dismal Jan 07 (#'s can 'prove' anything), the Delta II + Aveo replacements are '10 (at best), the Camaro is already years late, the 'nox is dropping sales in a hot segment, the Volt is an '11 (at best) & the Impy replacement has barely been decided on (Zeta v. Ep II LWB)

We are the largest GM volume dealer in our region. We have regularly been between 90% and 120% of target sales (for 5 yrs.). Out Chevy store is probably one of the most profitable in the US, so, NO, we won't be selling anytime soon. Thanks for the advice, though. Not boasting, just trying to make the case that I'm not a hater, I just speak as an officer in a highly successful GM franchise that sees what is wrong without holding back.

--we have earned the right to criticize the mgmt of GM. Our 400+ employees deserve better. And so does everyone on this board that considers themselves a fan.

All of Enzl's posts have hit the collective nail right on the head. Complacency now....in light of a few product hits (hits that GM DOES deserve solid and enthusiastic credit for) is the same old ailment that has befallen GM and their troops for decades and decades.

Even GM's hits aren't sellouts all around the country and GM still is fighting an overwhelming perception liability in most markets in the U.S. I'm one of the MOST enthusiastic new Malibu fans on this site....and even I still have seen to date ONE (1) retail Malibu on the road here in southern California....and only two (2) other rental Malibus. I was watching the grammy's the other night....and GM had tons of Malibu ads on the grammys. I was with a bunch of people at a friend's house and every time the ads would come on, I'd comment on how hot the car is and what a great new product it is. I was getting laughed out of the room. I couldn't believe the snickering and mocking that was taking place in regards to the Malibu and GM. Call it "snobbery" or "ignorance".....but this is a major problem that still exists.....WHATEVER you want to call it. The Rick and others at the top of GM simply don't get this and don't understand this....I'm now thoroughly convinced.

In fact, the ONLY new GM vehicles that seem to be making ANY headway (from a retail standpoint) are the Lambdas. Almost every Lambda I see here is a retail unit (with a dealer plate frame.) Even CTS is overwhelmingly rental in this market....with a few retail units thrown in for good measure.

It used to be easy for me to beat on GM for lacking market share in this market because the product was, frankly, crap. But even I am getting frustrated that even with first-class products now, most people still won't even give GM a second-thought.

Here's an interesting note.....a friend of mine works for Audi USA.....and told me that during the development over here of the launch of the new A4, CTS is not even mentioned as a potential competitor! It's only 3-series, C-Class, IS, and G35. In fact, when he mentioned the new CTS to a bunch of Audi marketing guys, they were like "CTS...? whatever." GM is still not being taken seriously. (That being said, that same Audi has an Enclave for comparison purposes in Auburn Hills and one in Ingostadt....go figure.)

So....my rambling point is.....EVERYTHING that Enzl has mentioned in his posts above are mostly non-product issues that are still seriously dragging GM down in the marketplace. That combined with the still-lack of competitive product overall is not making the future look too bright.

Let's celebrate the product wins.....but let's try to avoid sticking our collective heads back down in the sand so quickly.....

[The O.C.]

MY point was that RF has been a GM lifer. GM has had international operations for, what, 60 years?

And they're just waking up to the possibilities available to a company with a global footprint?

You and I would not have jobs. Mr. Wagoner's Great-grandchildren are guaranteed millionaires. That's absurd and insulting....

I'm not arguing that badge-jobs are good or that great product isn't the key--but there's not enough of it and the timing may doom the company--well past the right time to get a real 21st century leader in place, IMO.

....and I'll say that I am certainly no "rocket scientist" myself.....but even I have been saying that GM should bring the Astra over here for....oh....10 or more years or so?

And GM just NOW decides to do it....? These are the kinds of things that make me question how steeped in reality people like The Rick and The Fritz truly are.