New Buick to be called LaCrosse, has been butchered.

[VenSeattle]

The Lucerne has really had no direct competition, and sales while still strong, have been consistently declining. Indirectly it competes at the bottom end with smaller premium sedans such as the ES350, Maxima, Avalon, while the V8 models are now competing against the MKS. At the very least in needs a powertrain upgrade, and preferably a major facelift as well, to be competitive against the new Lincoln. I would dump the 3.9 L in favor of the LNF and 6-speed (the 220 PS version if not the full 260 hp engine), and jack up the price at the same time (min $33-35K), and dump the Northstar for the 3.6 DI + 6-speed combo. At the very earliest possible I would also add the future 2.8 DI Turbo if it can offer similar or better power and economy than the future DI Turbo Ford V6. I would be willing to sacrifice sales for higher margins, higher take-up of more expensive options, and more prestige (2-3K a month in the US). And I would make no mention of the ES350 and Avalon in any competitor list, but only the MKS and the Phaeton if it returns without being downsized too much.

I understand what you're saying and agree. Most people compare the Lucerne to the Toyota Avalon, Mercury Sable, or Chrysler 300. These seem the most appropriate due to pricing, size (Avalon & Sable are technically large sedans by interior volume), HP, and features. The Lexus ES350 is probably the highest reaching ideal for a competitor to the Lucerne but only in SUPER trim. In truth, the ES350 is much smaller than the Lucerne and seems more appropriate as the Buick EPS II competitor than the Lucerne. I do like the comparison to the new Lincoln MKS though... I haven't had the time to check one out yet.

[cire]

The Lucerne has really had no direct competition, and sales while still strong, have been consistently declining. Indirectly it competes at the bottom end with smaller premium sedans such as the ES350, Maxima, Avalon, while the V8 models are now competing against the MKS. At the very least in needs a powertrain upgrade, and preferably a major facelift as well, to be competitive against the new Lincoln. I would dump the 3.9 L in favor of the LNF and 6-speed (the 220 PS version if not the full 260 hp engine), and jack up the price at the same time (min $33-35K), and dump the Northstar for the 3.6 DI + 6-speed combo. At the very earliest possible I would also add the future 2.8 DI Turbo if it can offer similar or better power and economy than the future DI Turbo Ford V6. I would be willing to sacrifice sales for higher margins, higher take-up of more expensive options, and more prestige (2-3K a month in the US). And I would make no mention of the ES350 and Avalon in any competitor list, but only the MKS and the Phaeton if it returns without being downsized too much.

I like your suggestion, but I would maybe go a little further. I would do any necessary updates/improvements to the platform to ensure that it is competitive, give it a full redesign to bring it in line stylistically with the rest of the lineup (possibly downsize it to below 200 inches, if it can be done without sacrificing interior room), and make the direct injected 3.6 liter V6/6-speed auto combo standard equipment. I do like your suggestion of making the 2.8 DI Turbo an optional engine choice if it can match the perfomance and efficiency of the EcoBoost unit offered in the MKS (like you said). I also like your idea of targeting this sedan at the MKS and Phaeton.

Instead of creating a platform mate for Cadillac, why not use this proposed next generation platform to create a new Impala for Chevrolet to target the Taurus, Azera, and Avalon? This car would offer the Malibu's V6 as standard equipment and the directed injected version as an upgrade. This would give Chevrolet a proper flagship sedan that wouldn't overlap with the Malibu like the current W-body Impala. With this product targeting the more affordable portion of the large sedan market, the next gen Lucerne (I would actually prefer "Electra" or "LeSabre" instead) would be free to move upmarket to more effectively target the MKS and Phaeton.

Edited August 15, 2008 by cire

[Micah Pie]

Concept:

"Oh my god, this is the best car EVAR, I will buy 500 of these, GM is saved, yippy!"

Production version, slights changes, grany, shaky, fuzzy, bad POV pre-production picture:

"great, GM really screwed up the concept, it is teh suckxs!!11!!"

production version:

"Well, it turned out OK, but I am really disappointed because it doesn't have blue.., oh wait it does, I mean yellow tooth and no NAVITRON and it doesn't go the moon in 4.5 sec, I won't buy one."

reality:

poster drives his mom's honda to go flip burgers.

[smk4565]

You have made a even bigger ass out of yourself.The Enclave was only on sale for 7 month's in 2007 ,and GM was still ramping up production.

The Enclave IS A HIT plain and simple. The average Enclave transaction price is in the $39,000 mark.

The Buick Epsilon II has a very good chance of selling 72,000-78,000 a year, with an average transaction price in the range of $34,000-$37,000.

In 2008 (no half year or production ramp up) they sold 25,651 Enclaves in 8 months, that works out to 38,474 if they hold that pace through the fall. The Lucerne is on pace to sell 47,571 units in 2008, and they sell that car to rental agencies too, though not at Impala or G6 levels. The Lucerne doesn't sell at an average of $34-37k and it can't crack 50k sales, how will the Invicta/LaX, with the Lucerne priced the same on the same showroom floor. The Lacrosse has sold 23,231 units in 8 months this year, so it is a total dud.

The BMW 5-series is outselling the Enclave this year, and the 5-series has been around a while and costs a lot more. The 5-series does well for it's class, but I wouldn't call it one of the hottest selling vehicles in the industry.

The Enclave's average buyer is 56, which isn't that young, although better than the 67 year old average for a buick sedan buyer.

Edited August 15, 2008 by smk4565

[wildcat]

GM is trying to take Buick to a more refined place, at a higher price point. In their words, ". . . the Enclave is where we want to take Buick . . . blah-blah-blah . . . ." The LaCrosse and Lucerne both were (and, at this moment, remain) handicapped by certain things, so let's see how GM fares with thoroughly competitive Buicks on Epsilon II and Alpha and Delta II - hoping that they make the right effort and investment with them.

[Toyota.vs.GM]

In 2008 (no half year or production ramp up) they sold 25,651 Enclaves in 8 months, that works out to 38,474 if they hold that pace through the fall. The Lucerne is on pace to sell 47,571 units in 2008, and they sell that car to rental agencies too, though not at Impala or G6 levels. The Lucerne doesn't sell at an average of $34-37k and it can't crack 50k sales, how will the Invicta/LaX, with the Lucerne priced the same on the same showroom floor. The Lacrosse has sold 23,231 units in 8 months this year, so it is a total dud.

The BMW 5-series is outselling the Enclave this year, and the 5-series has been around a while and costs a lot more. The 5-series does well for it's class, but I wouldn't call it one of the hottest selling vehicles in the industry.

The Enclave's average buyer is 56, which isn't that young, although better than the 67 year old average for a buick sedan buyer.

You're so full of bull$h!. First you have no idea what you are typing about on the Enclave. If you take your head out of your ass , the month of August is not over yet, so the August sales are not out . 25,651 was sold in the first 7 month's of 2008 .2: The Enclave best month's in 2007 was September-December (if you had any sense , you would know September,October,November and December have not even come yet) , so stop trying to claim the Enclave isn't selling.

3: The Buick Epsilon II has a chance of selling 72,000-78,000 with an average transaction price in the $34,000-$37,000 range.

4: Since you want to bring up the 5-Series sales, the Cadillac CTS outsales the 5-Series by a large size.

5: Buick's average buyer is 55, your ''info'' on the Enclave is wrong, and drop you're ''Buick 67'' crap.

6: Stay off the website.

Edited August 15, 2008 by Toyota.vs.GM

[VenSeattle]

In 2008 (no half year or production ramp up) they sold 25,651 Enclaves in 8 months, that works out to 38,474 if they hold that pace through the fall. The Lucerne is on pace to sell 47,571 units in 2008, and they sell that car to rental agencies too, though not at Impala or G6 levels. The Lucerne doesn't sell at an average of $34-37k and it can't crack 50k sales, how will the Invicta/LaX, with the Lucerne priced the same on the same showroom floor.

I'd add to Toyota.vs.GM's response to smk...

The Lucerne has sold only 13.2% to Fleets for 2008 compared to its competition: Toyota Avalon (25.6%), Hyundai Azera (25.3%), Nissan Maxima (23.8%), Volkswagen Passat (15.1%), and Chrysler 300 (43.4%). Lucerne is also OUTSELLING ALL OF THEM... The Lucerne is kicking ass comparatively in this market. People are buying them. People are enjoying them. I was at the gas station today with a Lucerne owner in front of me (CXL V8). She bought her Buick at the same dealership as my PA (Bellevue Buick, which is now closed.) She looked to be in her mid-40's. She loves her car. The only problem she has is the same one I have... whether to get the Buick serviced in Kirkland or in Renton...

Oh... and the Lucerne is in it's 3rd year...

In 2006, Lucerne sold 96,515 units

In 2007, Lucerne sold 82,923 units

Yes, sales this year are lower, but the Lucerne's market has been hit hard just like trucks and SUVs... still, compared to its competition the Lucerne is doing great. And, as TvsG pointed out on the Enclave... Lucerne's best selling months are in the fall as well...

The Lacrosse has sold 23,231 units in 8 months this year, so it is a total dud. The BMW 5-series is outselling the Enclave this year, and the 5-series has been around a while and costs a lot more. The 5-series does well for it's class, but I wouldn't call it one of the hottest selling vehicles in the industry.

Dude! The LaCrosse is about to be replaced in 6 months!!!! Who the hell cares now?!?

And you're comparing 5-Series sales to the Enclave's???? I guess in your quest for comparisons you realized (although still in denial) the Buick Enclave is killing the (redesigned for 2007) BMW X5 in sales... :rotflmao:

The Enclave's average buyer is 56, which isn't that young, although better than the 67 year old average for a buick sedan buyer.

As TvsG stated... your information is inaccurate. Buick's average buyer's age for 2007 was 55... that only includes a partial year of Enclave sales. The Lucerne and LaCrosse are bringing in a younger audience too. The SUPER models are helping.

[Lamar]

Concept:

"Oh my god, this is the best car EVAR, I will buy 500 of these, GM is saved, yippy!"

Production version, slights changes, grany, shaky, fuzzy, bad POV pre-production picture:

"great, GM really screwed up the concept, it is teh suckxs!!11!!"

production version:

"Well, it turned out OK, but I am really disappointed because it doesn't have blue.., oh wait it does, I mean yellow tooth and no NAVITRON and it doesn't go the moon in 4.5 sec, I won't buy one."

reality:

poster drives his mom's honda to go flip burgers.

This ain't Autoblog.

[Robert Hall]

Concept:

"Oh my god, this is the best car EVAR, I will buy 500 of these, GM is saved, yippy!"

Production version, slights changes, grany, shaky, fuzzy, bad POV pre-production picture:

"great, GM really screwed up the concept, it is teh suckxs!!11!!"

production version:

"Well, it turned out OK, but I am really disappointed because it doesn't have blue.., oh wait it does, I mean yellow tooth and no NAVITRON and it doesn't go the moon in 4.5 sec, I won't buy one."

reality:

poster drives his mom's honda to go flip burgers.

Or since this is a GM site, a 10 yr old Cavalier..

[VenSeattle]

There is some truth to Micah Pie's post regardless of which forum we're talking about...

[Drew Dowdell]

The Lacrosse has sold 23,231 units in 8 months this year, so it is a total dud.

How well did the G20 sell in the last 8 months before the G35 came out?

How well did the Isuzu based Odyssey sell in the last 8 months before the Honda built one came out?

How well did the Rainier/Terraza/Rendezvous sell in the last 8 months before the Enclave came out?

How well did the Grand Prix sell in last 8 months before the G8 came out?

your point is pointless

[InvictaMan]

It seems pointless to even speculate until we know more definite information about the car, its amenities and its price. I am excited about it, but I would be more excited to see Buick getting products like a Delta II CUV and even a sportwagon, like Cadillac. The Enclave is great, but I would like to see Buick offer the same benefits in a smaller, sportier, more economical package. Of course, with the new developments in engine and drive train technologies, smaller does not always translate into better economy, but it would translate into more fun to drive. I think this new sedan will do great things for Buick. Seems like folks today just love to see things fail more than succeed. It pains these folks to see Buick make strides back into favor when they thought they had put them six feet under. For the record, I'm guessing we're gonna see a Century/Regal format again. LaCrosse will be the Century low end and Invicta will be the Regal high end. Minor fascia and trim changes will make the line up look bigger with two names.

Edited August 15, 2008 by InvictaMan

[Paolino]

Arg, I want prices and production specs already!!

[siegen]

>>"The main thing I didn't like on the concept was the side crease, which is horribly cheap looking. "<<

How are you coping with the accord's horribly cheap looking side crease?? Or are you referring to that as a scrape or dent?

The Accord has a normal TL-inspired side crease, and looks fine. This side crease, even on the nice looking concept, looks poor IMHO. It hurts the overall design more than it helps and really feels like an afterthought.

[VenSeattle]

couple of edits/comments...

The Accord has a normal (Mercedes-benz)-inspired side crease, and looks fine(also an opinion). This side crease, even on the nice looking concept, looks poor IMHO. It hurts the overall design more than it helps and really feels like an afterthought.

I have a feeling the Invicta and the production vehicle both use the same complex stamping process as the Enclave to accomplish the side crease... it's anything but an afterthought. As you like to recommend with Honda and Acurs vehicles, wait until you see it in person. I haven't read any complaints from people who have seen the concept in person...

[cire]

The Accord has a normal TL-inspired side crease, and looks fine. This side crease, even on the nice looking concept, looks poor IMHO. It hurts the overall design more than it helps and really feels like an afterthought.

That side crease on the Invicta Concept is a modern interpretation of the classic "Buick Sweepspear" styling cue. This styling cue dates back to 1949. I think it's great that Buick has managed to integrate their classic design cues (sweepspear and ventiports) into their modern designs. These cues display the proud heritage of the brand and add a lot of character to the division's products.

These cues are better integrated and much more tasteful than that hideous new Acura grille or that disfigured wheel arch on the front fender of the upcoming 2009 Acura TL. Although I thought the overall shape of the TL was attractive, the poorly executed details (grille and fender arch, not to mention the C-pillar fake out) ruined the car for me.

[The O.C.]

>>"BMW's '94 models were not updated '68s."<<

Then, that's even a more sad scenario, isn't it? Total redesigns (multiple?) to produce... the same car visually. Imagine if GM redesigned the '68 Nova multiple times in 15 years and all it came away with visually by 1994 was molded plastic bumpers ?? Oh, the knashing of teeth & the tearing of hair that would ensue !!!! Look at what we already have with the W-Body "rebadges"

>>"Face it, the '90s GM products were by and large forgettable crap."<<

The entire 1980s and 1990s were by & large forgettable crap. These era cars will never reach even a fraction of the collectibility or following or value of vintage American vehicles. Face it yourself.

Awwww....I think someone is jealous of BMW's success.......

[The O.C.]

Sigh...from what I can see it looks like a huge disappointment, thanks GM.

I agree.

And I KNEW this would happen......and said so many, many months ago when everyone was going gaga over the concept.

This car looks like it would fit a Cobalt badge better than a Buick badge. To me, the whole car just spells "cheap" and no removing of the graininess in the picture is going to change that.

What the HELL has GM been thinking?

[wildcat]

It seems pointless to even speculate . . . I'm guessing we're gonna see a Century/Regal format again. LaCrosse will be the Century low end and Invicta will be the Regal high end. Minor fascia and trim changes will make the line up look bigger with two names.

So you're thinking that Buick, with no more than, say, 4 models, is going to make 2 of them nearly the same, as they did with the Century and Regal in the late '90s? I think they know better than that... I hope they know better than that!

[wildcat]

This side crease, even on the nice looking concept, looks poor IMHO. It hurts the overall design more than it helps and really feels like an afterthought.

It's a modern interpretation of a classic Buick design cue. You wouldn't want a plain, slab side... like so many cars have nowadays... would you?

[Robert Hall]

It's a modern interpretation of a classic Buick design cue. You wouldn't want a plain, slab side... like so many cars have nowadays... would you?

Besides the grille, it's what really gives it build identity, IMHO..

[cire]

So you're thinking that Buick, with no more than, say, 4 models, is going to make 2 of them nearly the same, as they did with the Century and Regal in the late '90s? I think they know better than that... I hope they know better than that!

Of all the rebadging blunders that the General has cruelly unleashed on the market over the years, the last gen Century/Regal had to be the most ridiculous. It's bad enough when you rebadge something for another brand, but it's much worse when you do it within the same division.

I agree with you. I hope GM knows how silly it was to do this. Buick really has a lot of potential for GM if they don't cheap out on tapping into that potential. I think the brand can reach that potential with 4-6 good products, if those products are well executed and positioned to fulfill their purpose.

[Robert Hall]

Of all the rebadging blunders that the General has cruelly unleashed on the market over the years, the last gen Century/Regal had to be the most ridiculous. It's bad enough when you rebadge something for another brand, but it's much worse when you do it within the same division.

I think the Century/Regal duality was really a continuation of what GM had done in the past within brands..i.e. each brand (or division, as they once were called) used to have a base, medium, and top-of-the line model within each platform, each with a different name, sometimes a different grille, and different trim/content...sometimes 2 (i.e. in the late 70s-early 80s-- Impala/Caprice, Catalina/Bonneville), sometimes 3-4 (like they did in the '60s-'70s- LeMans/Tempest/GTO, Biscayne/Bel Air/Impala/Caprice, F85/Cutlass, etc). Nothing new.

Edited August 16, 2008 by moltar

[ZL-1]

I took another look at the pics and here are my :twocents:

I think the production headlights and front bumper suck, rear end and interior look cool.

[Drew Dowdell]

Of all the rebadging blunders that the General has cruelly unleashed on the market over the years, the last gen Century/Regal had to be the most ridiculous. It's bad enough when you rebadge something for another brand, but it's much worse when you do it within the same division.

You mean like the Altima/Maxima or do you mean like the Camry/Avalon.... cause those have about the same level of difference between them as Century/Regal.

[Drew Dowdell]

>>"BMW's '94 models were not updated '68s."<<

Then, that's even a more sad scenario, isn't it? Total redesigns (multiple?) to produce... the same car visually. Imagine if GM redesigned the '68 Nova multiple times in 15 years and all it came away with visually by 1994 was molded plastic bumpers ?? Oh, the knashing of teeth & the tearing of hair that would ensue !!!! Look at what we already have with the W-Body "rebadges"

>>"Face it, the '90s GM products were by and large forgettable crap."<<

The entire 1980s and 1990s were by & large forgettable crap. These era cars will never reach even a fraction of the collectibility or following or value of vintage American vehicles. Face it yourself.

When you think of cars from the 80s and 90s in terms of design or style, what ones pop into your head? Rarely Asian junk. GM, Ford, and occasionally Chrysler produced cars both distinctive and unique visually even if they aren't your style.

Cars like the 70-85 E-bodies

The last Riviera and first Aurora

The Mark VIIs and Mark VIIIs

The Reatta and Allante

The Cutlass Supreme Convertible

The Regal/GN/GNX

Corvette of any year

The imposing B-bodies

The Euros had a few high priced cars that command attention like the 8-series, 6 series, just about any SL.....

In the 80s and 90s you had a hard time telling a 626 from an Accord from a Camry from a Maxima without looking at the badge. What did ANY of the Asian manufacturers build that could compete with the visual presence of a Riviera? <not the stubby ones> Even the "lowly" Bonneville was more interesting to look at than an equivalent year Asian mid-size.

The only two asian cars I can think of that would have a chance are the later Supras and the Nissan Z-cars.

[VenSeattle]

Of all the rebadging blunders that the General has cruelly unleashed on the market over the years, the last gen Century/Regal had to be the most ridiculous. It's bad enough when you rebadge something for another brand, but it's much worse when you do it within the same division.

Moltar is very correct.

Amazingly, the last gen Century and Regal were well executed and successful in their intention. Neither of the vehicles appealed to the same market. They were rarely cross-shopped. Although very similar, "deal-beakers" abounded between them...

The Century was conservatively styled with an upright chrome grille, came with a column shifter w/bench seat standard, and only an efficient (but not very powerful) V6.

The Regal came in two-tones, body colored sport grille, trim packages, floor shifter/bucket seats standard, and engine output options (regular & supercharged).

Having both in the line-up allowed Buick to "fleet" the Century while keeping the nearly identical Regal exclusive for retail sales. Regal was never pictured as a fleet queen as the Century was because of this. It's one of the reasons why "Regal" isn't considered a damaged name plate for Buick.

A similar approach was used by Buick for the LeSabre & Park Avenue actually. The LeSabre remained bench-seat only and naturally aspirated... somewhat of a natural step-up from the Century. The Regal buyers gravitated to the Park Avenue/ PA Ultra and Rivieras.

When I was a teen... based on styling alone, I honestly thought the compact Skylark buyers were meant to move up to the B-Body Roadmaster.

So, in a way, Buick catered to three types of buyers in the 90's by offering three different lineups -

Traditional conservative Buick buyers:

Century & LeSabre

Younger, status conscious Buick Buyers:

Regal, Riviera, & Park Avenue

Extraverted value/premium shoppers:

Skylark & Roadmaster

[Bimmer325]

You mean like the Altima/Maxima or do you mean like the Camry/Avalon.... cause those have about the same level of difference between them as Century/Regal.

[frogger]

If they take it off its stilts, improve the front lower fascia so it doesn't look like a rental fleet car, and also give it something better than 1995 style huge sidewall profile wheel/tire combo tires it won't look so bad. I think the SUV'ish ride height and those features are what make it look really dated to me.

It for sure doesn't look like an entry lux car in the spy shot, base trim or not.

[Robert Hall]

You mean like the Altima/Maxima or do you mean like the Camry/Avalon.... cause those have about the same level of difference between them as Century/Regal.

Not really..the W- Century/Regal were the same car with minor cosmetic differences...the Altima/Maxima are two different cars--no sheetmetal in common, different wheelbases, interiors, etc...likewise with the Camry/Avalon.

Edited August 16, 2008 by moltar

[frogger]

How well did the G20 sell in the last 8 months before the G35 came out?

How well did the Isuzu based Odyssey sell in the last 8 months before the Honda built one came out?

How well did the Rainier/Terraza/Rendezvous sell in the last 8 months before the Enclave came out?

How well did the Grand Prix sell in last 8 months before the G8 came out?

your point is pointless

Weren't all those vehicles and the current Lacrosse total duds in the retail market as well?! Vehicles that looked and felt 5 years older than the competition.

[VenSeattle]

Weren't all those vehicles and the current Lacrosse total duds in the retail market as well?! Vehicles that looked and felt 5 years older than the competition.

The Rendezvous outsold GM's Sales expectations to the point GM could drop the Pontiac version (AZTEK) and continue production without a platform mate. The Rendezvous was a hit for Buick.

The Rainier outsold the Oldsmobile Bravada while sharing a showroom floor with the GMC Envoy (another surprise to GM).

The LaCrosse was never meant to match Century/Regal sales because fleet sales were reduced when the LaCrosse came out.

----

Most models slow up right before being replaced because buyers are holding off for the replacement or remodel.

[wildcat]

I always thought it was unfair to expect the LaCrosse to sell like 2 (albeit similar) cars did; same with Lucerne for the LeSabre and Park Avenue.

[cire]

You mean like the Altima/Maxima or do you mean like the Camry/Avalon.... cause those have about the same level of difference between them as Century/Regal.

No, the last gen Regal was a direct rebadge of the Century. Except for changing some minor cosmetic details and the powertrain, they were the exact same car. Anyone can clearly see that. The fact that GM wasted money marketing them as separate vehicles when it could have covered the same territory with different trim levels under one model moniker seems totally ridiculous to me. I feel the same way about the mid 90's Lumina and Monte Carlo. It was clear that the '95 Monte was nothing more than a coupe version of the '95 Lumina, but GM insisted on looking silly by slapping the "Monte Carlo" name on the coupe anyway. As much as I dislike the looks of the last gen Monte, at least its exterior looked distinctly different from its Impala platform mate.

The Altima/Maxima and Camry/Avalon are examples of platform sharing. The cars may share platforms, but they have their own unique exterior/interior design to differentiate the products. In the case of the Camry and Avalon, the two cars even have different wheelbases and overall sizes. The Altima and Maxima overlap much more in size than the Camry and Avalon, but each car still has its own unique design and purpose in Nissan's lineup.

There are times in the past that GM has correctly executed platform sharing. The Regal shared the W-body platform with the Impala, Grand Prix, and Intrigue, but each car had its own unique exterior/interior design to differentiate it from its platform mates. The first gen Aurora shared a platform with the last gen Riviera, but you couldn't tell it by looking at the cars. The Aura, G6, and Malibu share the LWB Epsilon platform, but each car has its own distinct appearance.

I don't have an issue with platform sharing; it can be an economical and effective way for a car company to cover different market segments if done correctly. I just think GM looked ridiculous marketing the same overall exterior design as 2 different cars within the same division when it was obvious that the 2 models were essentially the same car. It's a scenario that I hope GM doesn't repeat with Buick. GM needs to decide what they want Buick to be and give the division appropriate products to reinforce the brand's intended purpose in the market.

[Drew Dowdell]

Not really..the W- Century/Regal were the same car with minor cosmetic differences...the Altima/Maxima are two different cars--no sheetmetal in common, different wheelbases, interiors, etc...likewise with the Camry/Avalon.

and engine differences, and option differences, and color differences

Century was 3.1 or 3.4, Regal was 3800 or 3800s/c. Regal could be had with leather, Century couldn't. Regal was console shift, Century was column shift.

The Maxima rides on the same, albeit stretched, platform as the Altima and just takes the top engine from the lower car, slap on minor front facia differences and a bigger sticker prices and voila! The transition to Maxima is complete.

Same trick on the Avalon.

Same trick on the LeSabre/Park Ave

Same trick on the 88/98

Same trick on the Sable/Continental <Lincoln Mercury is one division I understand>

[Drew Dowdell]

Weren't all those vehicles and the current Lacrosse total duds in the retail market as well?! Vehicles that looked and felt 5 years older than the competition.

That was my point. The failures of the previous generation on a nameplate do not predict the success of the subsequent generation. SMK was implying that because the current LaX is a dud, the next one will be also.

[Northstar]

and engine differences, and option differences, and color differences

Century was 3.1 or 3.4, Regal was 3800 or 3800s/c. Regal could be had with leather, Century couldn't. Regal was console shift, Century was column shift.

The Maxima rides on the same, albeit stretched, platform as the Altima and just takes the top engine from the lower car, slap on minor front facia differences and a bigger sticker prices and voila! The transition to Maxima is complete.

Same trick on the Avalon.

Same trick on the LeSabre/Park Ave

Same trick on the 88/98

Same trick on the Sable/Continental <Lincoln Mercury is one division I understand>

The Century and Regal were much more similar the the Altima and Maxima. Like you basically said, the Regal is a fancy Century, in other words, a higher trim level and thus more options and a more powerful engine. The Maxima and Altima, prior to the new models, looked similar in the same way the STS and CTS look similar, and BMWs look similar, but they were certainly much more different looking than the Century and Regal. The new Maxima looks much different than the Altima now, however.

[Drew Dowdell]

No, the last gen Regal was a direct rebadge of the Century. Except for changing some minor cosmetic details and the powertrain, they were the exact same car. Anyone can clearly see that. The fact that GM wasted money marketing them as separate vehicles when it could have covered the same territory with different trim levels under one model moniker seems totally ridiculous to me.

Between Century and Regal, which name is tarnished and could likely never be used again?

In a side profile, I often mistake a Maxima for an Altima and vice versa. Now the newest barf job Maxima that Nissan has yacked up onto the pavement will never be mixed up with the Altima.

The roof lines aren't even different until you get to the back tire where it just looks like that backed the Altima into a wall a few times and called it a day.

[The O.C.]

and engine differences, and option differences, and color differences

Century was 3.1 or 3.4, Regal was 3800 or 3800s/c. Regal could be had with leather, Century couldn't. Regal was console shift, Century was column shift.

The Maxima rides on the same, albeit stretched, platform as the Altima and just takes the top engine from the lower car, slap on minor front facia differences and a bigger sticker prices and voila! The transition to Maxima is complete.

Same trick on the Avalon.

Same trick on the LeSabre/Park Ave

Same trick on the 88/98

Same trick on the Sable/Continental <Lincoln Mercury is one division I understand>

Century only had 3.1 only. Also, leather was available (I had a few as company cars.)

Maxima didn't share a single exterior panel or interior piece with the Altima.

Avalon also shares no exterior or interior pieces with Camry.

LeSabre/Park Ave and 88/98 shared the vast majority of their exterior body panels and interiors with each other with minor trim differences.

[wildcat]

They still have a Buick Regal in China.

[cire]

My views on Buick are outlined below:

1) Buick is supposed to be a premium, near luxury brand. It shouldn't need to offer a decontented version of a car under a different model name to appeal to budget shoppers or fleets. GM has three brands at the affordable end of the market (Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn); Buick shouldn't need to compete on this level. GM needs to stop trying to make Buick be all things to all people; if it doesn't, Buick will never be fully accepted or recognized as a premium brand in the market. The next gen Epsilon II based LaCrosse (or hopefully Invicta) doesn't need to be cheapened or decontented to attract budget shoppers; it should be detailed and equipped to compete with the best premium, near luxury FWD midsize sedans on the market. The base version should be well equipped with a long list of standard luxury features with upper trims adding on the most elite optional features. If this is GM's intention for Buick (and I hope it is), then there is no need to repeat the rebadging fiasco that was the last gen W-body based Century/Regal twins.

2) It's fine for Buick to share platforms with other GM products, but the division's products should receive their own distinct exterior/interior designs and luxury features/detailing to properly differentiate and position them upmarket from other GM division products. The current lineup doesn't share any sheetmetal with other GM division products and I expect GM to continue this tradition into the future.

3) Buick needs a sub-LaCrosse sedan and a sub-Enclave crossover (in size, not luxury content). If GM decides to give Buick these much needed products (and they will if they are smart), then they should be just as distinct and luxuriously equipped as their larger counterparts. This means unique and appropriately premium products should be developed on the corporation's compact to midsize platforms (Either Delta II or SWB Epsilon II for the sedan and Theta Premium for the crossover), not decontenting the brand's larger products to compete with the corporation's affordable divisions. There are some other products that I would like to see developed for Buick (a Riviera coupe or coupe-cabrio for one), but the two mentioned above are the most urgently needed additions.

Again, Buick has a lot of potential. If GM clearly defines Buick's purpose and status in today's market and gives the division products that effectively reinforce the division's market mission, then I think GM will be very pleased with the results that this great, historic brand can deliver.

[Drew Dowdell]

Century only had 3.1 only. Also, leather was available (I had a few as company cars.)

Maxima didn't share a single exterior panel or interior piece with the Altima.

Avalon also shares no exterior or interior pieces with Camry.

LeSabre/Park Ave and 88/98 shared the vast majority of their exterior body panels and interiors with each other with minor trim differences.

Vehicles don't have to share body panels to look similar. Take the harping around here about the SRX looking like the VUE.

[vonVeezelsnider]

They still have a Buick Regal in China.

It has a bitchin' hood ornament that Buicks here should have.

[wildcat]

What I was getting at was that, if I understood correctly, Oldsmoboi claimed that either Century or Regal was tarnished and therefore couldn't (shouldn't) be used. Regal is still a current Buick in China - so I wouldn't consider that tarnished. And Century was just identified in some poll as one of the most reliable or whatever, so that, presumably, should't be considered tarnished. Unless it's on the basis that Buicks were / are supposed to be for old people... thus the dropping of the longtime name LeSabre, too.

[Paolino]

What I was getting at was that, if I understood correctly, Oldsmoboi claimed that either Century or Regal was tarnished and therefore couldn't (shouldn't) be used. Regal is still a current Buick in China - so I wouldn't consider that tarnished. And Century was just identified in some poll as one of the most reliable or whatever, so that, presumably, should't be considered tarnished. Unless it's on the basis that Buicks were / are supposed to be for old people... thus the dropping of the longtime name LeSabre, too.

The Century is tarnished because it's associated with a very conservatively styled body and a soft-suspension... and I personally think boring and underpowered (compared to cars in its class at the time) when I think of it.

Edited August 17, 2008 by Paolino

[wildcat]

Then you need to trade yours for a new Invicta! :AH-HA_wink:

[Paolino]

Then you need to trade yours for a new Invicta! :AH-HA_wink:

Haha--I'd settle for the last gen Century. :AH-HA_wink:

My front bumper is falling off (not from an accident), the paint is shot, the tranny is rough, it burns a tiny bit o oil, I'm tired of 4 speakers mounted so the sound projects up to the roof instead of at me, etc. Don't get me wrong, it has almost 179K miles, and it's been an awesome car, but I'm ready for something with a low-fuel light, cup holders, and a trunk release. LOL

[InvictaMan]

Between Century and Regal, which name is tarnished and could likely never be used again?

I don't think either of those two names are tarnished. If it had to be narrowed to one, it would be Century, since its most recent incarnation was a modest, entry-level W that has a reputation of appealing to an older segment. LaCrosse has been tarnished since the Canadians invented slang for "f--- yourself." Not exactly the image Buick wants to generate right now, though in context of the sport (which seems to have garnered less chatter than the slang), it was a great Buick name in the tradition of its heritage. The New Buick needs to exude strength, character, style, class, and yes, sexiness, to a 30-70 age market. A task that Buick can do well when it applies itself and creates products that are artfully tasteful and well crafted.

[cire]

What I was getting at was that, if I understood correctly, Oldsmoboi claimed that either Century or Regal was tarnished and therefore couldn't (shouldn't) be used. Regal is still a current Buick in China - so I wouldn't consider that tarnished. And Century was just identified in some poll as one of the most reliable or whatever, so that, presumably, should't be considered tarnished. Unless it's on the basis that Buicks were / are supposed to be for old people... thus the dropping of the longtime name LeSabre, too.

I think Buick has a wealth of past model names that they could successfully resurrect if the name was attached to a well executed product and marketed aggressively. Look at the wonders Chevy did with the "Malibu" name. Up until the 2008 model arrived, the "Malibu" name was synonymous with "bland & cheap rental car queen" (at least with the 2 generations that preceded the 2008 model). Within an extremely short period, the name was transformed by attaching it to a desirable and attractive midsize sedan and by marketing it aggressively to let the market know that something great could be found at a local Chevy dealership.

I believe any of the past Buick model names listed below could be just as successful if GM followed the same practice that they used in transforming the "Malibu" name:

"Century", "Electra", "Invicta", "LeSabre", "Park Avenue", "Regal", "Rendezvous", "Riviera", and "Skylark"

I am normally against GM changing model names so often because they lose market recognition when they do this. In Buick's case, I think it would be wise to retire the "LaCrosse" and "Lucerne" names when the current products reach the end of their model cycles in the U.S. (GM might want to continue to use the "LaCrosse" name in China where the model was part of the brand's rise in that country). Neither model seemed to resonate or build much market recognition with the buying public in the U.S. I would revert back to some of the model names from the brand's past listed above to signal the renaissance of the brand in the U.S. The only product whose name should stay the same is "Enclave" since that product seems to be a success in the market (and the true first step in the brand's renaissance).

Edited August 18, 2008 by cire

[cire]

I don't think either of those two names are tarnished. If it had to be narrowed to one, it would be Century, since its most recent incarnation was a modest, entry-level W that has a reputation of appealing to an older segment. LaCrosse has been tarnished since the Canadians invented slang for "f--- yourself." Not exactly the image Buick wants to generate right now, though in context of the sport (which seems to have garnered less chatter than the slang), it was a great Buick name in the tradition of its heritage. The New Buick needs to exude strength, character, style, class, and yes, sexiness, to a 30-70 age market. A task that Buick can do well when it applies itself and creates products that are artfully tasteful and well crafted.

I totally agree. Well said!