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Now that I'm back in the saddle again, I keep hearing these persistent rumours that the KAPPA cars are dead. In particular I hear that the KAPPAS won't be moved to Bowling Green and that the next generation has been canceled. I am looking into it.

Edit: Thanks to those who e-mailed me about this.

Edited by Pontiac Custom-S
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I wouldn't be surprised. Disappointed, yes. Surprised, no.

Not surprising...I can see GM trimming back anything that deviates from their core business on car side---i.e. FWD high volume mass market cars. Thus, Kappa, Sigma, and Zeta are probably not long for this world. Sad.

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Another cool platform with potential bites the dust. Not that I'm surprised.

Then again is Alpha is flexible enough to be shrunk down that would be a possiblity...assuming they are even working on Alpha anymore.

Edited by Dodgefan
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Wait.... am i to understand in this $3.65-ish/gallon

world GM is considering cancelling a fun, sporty,

ultra-bang/buck commuter car???

I'd say BULL$HIT but then again this is GM we're

talking about so certain cretins in charge do the

EACT opposite of what is logical.

This news after just the other day I had a long

discussion about what an AMAZING vehicle the

B-body would/could've been if it got a redesign

in the late 1990s & a new frame incorporating

hydroforming & an optional IRS.

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Not surprising...I can see GM trimming back anything that deviates from their core business on car side---i.e. FWD high volume mass market cars. Thus, Kappa, Sigma, and Zeta are probably not long for this world. Sad.

Anyone got a time machine... seriously?

I'm sick of 2008, and 2009 looks worse yet! :angry:

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Wait.... am i to understand in this $3.65-ish/gallon

world GM is considering cancelling a fun, sporty,

ultra-bang/buck commuter car???

Kappa probably hasn't met ROI targets. I bet Alpha will disappear--they probably figure Delta II is good enough for compact cars.

Gamma II, Delta II, Epsilon II, Theta, Theta Premium, Lambda. That's where the money will go, because FWD generics are where the volume and profits are worldwide.

GM NA only has 7 RWD models now..Corvette, Solstice, G8, Sky, CTS, STS, XLR, plus the Camaro coming next year. I wonder how many will still be around in 5 years.. :(

Of course, this is more RWD now than they had 5-10 years ago. I'd love to see GM have more RWD, but I realize the unfortunate reality is that FWD is where the mass market is.

Edited by moltar
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I understood <correct me if I'm wrong> that one of the big dings against Kappa was it's relatively limited platform sharing flexibility.

Chevy *definitely* should have gotten the Nomad concept.

I remember hearing about the platform's limited flexibility too.

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Because the Zeta is dead right? So that leaves the Vette/XLR platform, Alpha (provided were even getting it) GM will have hardly any RWD cars left. I want RWD but a balance with FWD is okay with me. 8-10 models is enough for me to be happy. So does this mean the DTS/Lucerne is staying FWD?

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Yet another underutilized platform that the General is scrapping. If it is true, then this was a sheer waste of money, time, and effort by GM.

I hope this is not a sign that GM will eventually eliminate all its RWD platforms. Cadillac will never compete with the luxury big boys if it reverts back to a FWD product portfolio. I think the RWD platforms should be essentially maintained for Cadillac with appropriate niche products spun off these platforms for some of the other divisions (except for the Corvette platform, which should be prioritized for the Corvette with a possible Cadillac spin off; just like the current Corvette/XLR relationship).

I am also wondering why there hasn't been any info on the status of the Alpha platform's development lately. Has this program also been put on hold or cancelled?

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Given that GM has already said the Corvette is supposed to go on a ~500lb diet for the next generation, I can see Kappa and the Y Body merging onto something completely different. It could be just semantics, but anything's possible. How are Kappa sales doing worldwide (Solstice, Sky/GT/Daewoo whatever-they-call-it)?

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I feel another deep depression coming on.... :(

Some of you may hate me for saying this, but

I mean every word of it! If Cadillac switches

to FWD then I hope GM just rolls over & dies.

I'm sick to death of the garbage that this once

great company keeps trying to shove down

American consumer's throats.

I LOVE GM like a family member and if a loved

one or a closse friend had a terrible quality of

life and they had ZERO will to live I'd wish for

their pain to STOP.

GM is, like it or not, in ICU, & if the Company

turns into a vegetable we just need to pull the

damn plug.

Disgusting, wasteful & insulting are just a few

of the words this thread brings to mind.

If I'm ever terminally ill, in massive pain &

unable to enjoy my family's & friends'

company... unable to get any quality time &

without hope of salvation I'd hope a good

friend would just put a hollow point in my

skull while I sleep, GM is getting there.

We have a FWD &#036;h&#33;box on a whored out

platform wearing "Impala SS" emblems,

the Camaro, as much as it does KICK ass

has been compromised and its many

ZETA cousins/blood-brothers were either

stillborn or are unavailable in the USA...

I mean except for the Corvette, which is

a WORLD class prduct but unobtainable

to the masses and about as practical as

a Trans Am with no back seat, then the

SIGMA, ZETA & KAPPA trio are IT.

This is what a century of progress has

brought us to? A GM lineup of 95% FWD

cars & "trucks" (crossovers)? :rolleyes:

You might think I'm being very harsh

but actually I have no words, vulgar or

otherwise, to describe how disgusted I

am at even the TOUGHT of Kappa being

killed after that pathetic, short run of

only TWO products, one of them a

Saturn no less.

:flames:

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Lets back up a little here guys: Kappa isn't an under utilized platform. Kappa is an inflexible platform. It can make 2 door, 2 seat coupes and convertibles. With GM hurting for money this is a no brainer. Kappa doesn't make money, doesn't offer good ergonomics, and doesn't offer storage capacity. It was made to streamline the production channel and to show off what Pontiac is. That job is done.

While the current Y-body Corvette is a little larger and more powerful, who is to say that the next one will be. Maybe the Solstice will move to the Y-body. Maybe the Solstice will die, either way I am sure something will replace it.

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Given that GM has already said the Corvette is supposed to go on a ~500lb diet for the next generation, I can see Kappa and the Y Body merging onto something completely different. It could be just semantics, but anything's possible. How are Kappa sales doing worldwide (Solstice, Sky/GT/Daewoo whatever-they-call-it)?

My thoughts exactly...

In fact, I had heard (From a source that no one here likes) that this was going to happen LONG before all of the CAFE :bs:

I hope that is the case...

Theoretically (READ: hopefully) I can see GM operating 3 RWD programs in the future; Alpha, which will underpin the mid-size and affordable stuff. The Zeta/Sigma hybrid, if it actually exists (For the Cadillac CTS and maybe a larger Caddy) and something that will replace the Y-Body and Kappa.

I'd be fine with that if the platforms were very flexible and if every brand could utilize them AND if they were utilized in the correct way. There really is no need for 2 large RWD programs (If indeed Sigma is to survive and evolve) and likewise, there really is no need for 2 sports car programs if one can be flexible enough to support the whole portfolio. Not to mention, Kappa was basically a downsized Y-Body/parts bin platform anyway.

Now, that said, it wouldn't surprise me any if they just killed all of the RWD stuff (Because they're ignorant) and sold FWD rebadges from all around the world (Because, despite 20+ years of lambasting and market share loss, someone on the GM board still seems to think this is the road to success)

I guess actually being able to take pride in what GM builds was fun while it lasted though.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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Lets back up a little here guys: Kappa isn't an under utilized platform. Kappa is an inflexible platform. It can make 2 door, 2 seat coupes and convertibles. With GM hurting for money this is a no brainer. Kappa doesn't make money, doesn't offer good ergonomics, and doesn't offer storage capacity.

Great point... ok, I agree... kill it, besides we've got

RWD product coming with the ZETA (swb) Impala

coupe, sedan wagon & ragtop, Regal coupe, sedan

& ragtop, Grand Prix coupe & sedan, Coupe deVille ,

Sedan deVilles coming & the ZETA (lwb) Fleetwood,

Caprice Classic, Buick Electra 225 (coupe & sedan)

& Electra Estate (wagon) & Bonneville seadan...

That will be PLENTY of mass market cars, GM's own

version of the 300C/Magnum/Charger lineup!

Oh wait, hold on... this telegram just came in:

GM sucks at life... stop.

ZETA cancelled... except for one Pontiac & one Chevy... stop

48 more FWD models coming in next decade... stop

Camcord clones all around... stop

Just kill me now! :explode:

Kappa isn't an under utilized platform. ...It was made to streamline the production channel and to show off what Pontiac is. That job is done.

That job is DONE? :huh:

Soooo... now back to making seven different FWD

vehicles for the NEXT three decades? :blink:

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Now, that said, it wouldn't surprise me any if they just killed all of the RWD stuff (Because they're ignorant) and sold FWD rebadges from all around the world (Because, despite 20+ years of lambasting and market share loss, someone on the GM board still seems to think this is the road to success)

I guess actually being able to take pride in what GM builds was fun while it lasted though.

Remember, the 'G' in GM stands for 'Generic'...that is where they have been for a looooong time. Bland FWD mass market cars for all, with a smattering of good stuff (RWD) in the niches. Reality bites.

I hate being so negative, but I don't see much interesting in the future of GM beyond what is out now and coming in the short term (Camaro, CTS coupe, etc) for RWD fans like myself. I don't do FWD..

GM (and Ford) just frustrate me so much... at least Chrysler tried to return to mainstream RWD, but I'm not sure how long that will last.

I understand FOG and 68s angst, I have it also, just not as vocal about it. :(

Edited by moltar
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Kappa was cobbled-up to make the Solstice happen, a better platform could support the next gen. If that is what is behind this possible development, it might be a good thing. I can see how Solstice could ride on a common platform with the next gen Vette or on Alpha.

On the other hand, if this is just another abandonment of interesting cars (read RWD), then I guess my G8 ST could be my last new GM car.

Pretty much as simple as that, FWD need not apply - I won't be interested.

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Remember, the 'G' in GM stands for 'Generic'...that is where they have been for a looooong time. Bland FWD mass market cars for all, with a smattering of good stuff (RWD) in the niches. Reality bites.

Sounds like a really crappy, store-brand generic

version of Honey Bunches of Oats.

Reality Bites

"crunchy clusterfu*ks & front-wheel-drive faux-almond slivers"

I hate being so negative, but I don't see much interesting in the future of GM beyond what is out now and coming in the short term (Camaro, CTS coupe, etc) for RWD fans like myself. I don't FWD...

Agreed.

I don't "HABLA"....

I HAVE a first language, I don't need or want to

learn Espaniol, but I learned english as a 2nd

& you should learn english too, or you can, er...

should, GITDEFUKKOUT of the USA!

I don't FWD...

It's kind of like those goofy ergonomic bikes

where you lay on your back & peddle as if you

are too good to ride a bike standing up... it's

just not right and it's just not for ME.

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Not surprising, but sad. GM has tons of front drive generics, none of which are really hot sellers or profit makers. They need some rear drive products, and need sports cars and convertibles. I'd keep Kappa, but 2-seat roadsters are a niche market. GM really needs a 3-series type platform that can do sedan/coupe/convertible/wagon in a compact size.

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GM (and Ford) just frustrate me so much... at least Chrysler tried to return to mainstream RWD, but I'm not sure how long that will last.

Whatever may come in Chrysler's future one thing is for sure:

They came out with ALL their guns blazing, they might not

live to see 2050, or maybe even 2025 or who knows...

maybe even worse.... :(

But whatever happens they did NOT pu&&y out, crawl into

a hole deep like Saddan Insane & cry while curled into fetal

position, unwilling to do anything other than blame the bad

guy (government, consumers, beancounters....)

The GM of 2008 can not hold a candle to the Chrysler of

2008... sure they have a lot of &#036;h&#33;boxes with FWD but the

enthusiast can choose one of several RWD mainstream,

practical products including a SEDAN, WAGON & COUPE!!!

I wish the Challenger was a hardtop but, the Camaro was

also dumbed down into a frameless-door 2dr SEDAN too.

The SRTs are not a shame to the classic cars of Mopar's

past... the "directo connection" drag cars & hot rods...

But a FWD Impala SS? Lucerne? DTS? :yuck::puke:

I'd rather see GM not make it much longer than see

them die a sloooow pathetic death making &#036;h&#33;piles

that have no redeming value other than being 0.1%

cooler than a typical Japanese FWD sedan.

I understand FOG and 68s angst, I have it also, just not as vocal about it. :(

Yeah... it's one of my many character flaws... I just

can't help but be vocal if I witness wrong-doing, I

want to take action, step up, put my money where

my mouth is & do the right thing... or even if I can

only shout from the side-lines, I still give it my ALL!

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Remember, the 'G' in GM stands for 'Generic'...that is where they have been for a looooong time. Bland FWD mass market cars for all, with a smattering of good stuff (RWD) in the niches. Reality bites.

Honestly, I even doubt that.

I'm willing to bet that G8 and Camaro are left to die as is (Because Alpha won't be ready in time for the F6 and Pontiac apparently isn't worthy of any investment) Cadillac will see 1 Sigma model left (CTS) until the platform can't be continued anymore. Then the focus will be centered around Alpha (assuming it's ready by then) since apparently everyone at GM thinks that we'll all be driving 3 square foot turbo four and 6 cylinder cars in five years. Solstice will disappear, since, again, Pontiac isn't worthy. Sky will come off of Alpha as a companion to some Cadillac model (That is, if Saab doesn't get the next Sky) Buick... LOL, forget about them... they're next in line for the trash heap once Pontiac is dealt with. And Corvette will be downsized to the point that people like me can't fit into it and as a result of being downsized (READ: In Detroit-speak, downsized also means cheapened) will no longer have much prestige at all and will eventually be viewed as the MG or Triumph of the auto world. (Fun, but not very good)

I hate being so negative, but I don't see much interesting in the future of GM beyond what is out now and coming in the short term (Camaro, CTS coupe, etc) for RWD fans like myself. I don't do FWD..
I feel you man... But people like me and you (and the people we influence, hang out with and passionately preach GM to) don't count, remember? GM's own all-star employee told us that. GM would rather chase a growing base of customers that will likely NEVER buy their products again (Because the new sh*t is going to be just that; sh*t)

GM (and Ford) just frustrate me so much... at least Chrysler tried to return to mainstream RWD, but I'm not sure how long that will last.

Last I heard, Ford and Chrysler still have RWD products planned. LY is a go at Chrysler and and Ford is working with Ford of Australia to bring ECOBOOST powered RWD products here. (Of course, lately I've been a little out of the loop, so I could've missed something)

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Not surprising, but sad. GM has tons of front drive generics, none of which are really hot sellers or profit makers. They need some rear drive products, and need sports cars and convertibles. I'd keep Kappa, but 2-seat roadsters are a niche market. GM really needs a 3-series type platform that can do sedan/coupe/convertible/wagon in a compact size.

Yeah, but what's funny is how they're going to cut their own throats. because the few interesting cars are what actually attract the few sales of the bland stuff that they can manage.

Once the interesting stuff is gone, so is the free PR and the enthusiasm around a statement like "Well, that new camaro is awesome, maybe GM is getting it together."

And with no marketing budget to peddle the FWD crap, I'm willing to bet GM dealers will become ghost towns in no time.

EDIT: I am NOT against GM offering FWD cars. What I am against is GM offering ONLY FWD CARS and GM hastily making decisions and products that will doom either it or one of it's divisions in the future. Do we need 15 different RWD muscle cars? Absolutley not. But I think each division should have every product evaluated on it's own merit to determine it's place. Maybe we don't need a RWD Impala, but we certainly need a RWD large Pontiac and/or Cadillacs.

GM needs to calm down, attack the WHOLE market and work toward LONG TERM PROFITABILITY.

PCS once told me to "keep the faith" I'm not sure if he meant it as an insult or as some much needed support. Everyday it gets more difficult.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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Kappa was cobbled-up to make the Solstice happen, a better platform could support the next gen. If that is what is behind this possible development, it might be a good thing. I can see how Solstice could ride on a common platform with the next gen Vette or on Alpha.

Hope springs eternal.... :mellow:

But the way GM is headed looks like we're in for

-at least- another decade of FWD-garbage with

alphanumeric names & lame-o me-too styling.

They'll show us a bold, sexy, well proportioned

RWD hardtop coupe at every autoshow & then

we'll see a "production version" in showrooms

three years later, two years after almost

everyone in the general public has completetly

forgoten about it, except the production

version will be a four-door-sedan made by

Daewoo with I4 & V6 power.... mated to a six

or seven speed automatic.

Silver lining:

We'll have seventeen cupholders, five MP3

jacks & three navigation screens in every car.

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Hope springs eternal.... :mellow:

But the way GM is headed looks like we're in for

-at least- another decade of FWD-garbage with

alphanumeric names & lame-o me-too styling.

They'll show us a bold, sexy, well proportioned

RWD hardtop coupe at every autoshow & then

we'll see a "production version" in showrooms

three years later, two years after almost

everyone in the general public has completetly

forgoten about it, except the production

version will be a four-door-sedan made by

Daewoo with I4 & V6 power.... mated to a six

or seven speed automatic.

Silver lining:

We'll have seventeen cupholders, five MP3

jacks & three navigation screens in every car.

You did read the rest of my post, right? :AH-HA_wink:

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Yes.

And I too do not see a new GM car in my driveway

past the ZETA/SIGMA demise.

But if you get a Poncho G8ST at least you'll own one

of the last products from GM that will not suck 100%.

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Yes.

And I too do not see a new GM car in my driveway

past the ZETA/SIGMA demise.

But if you get a Poncho G8ST at least you'll own one

of the last products from GM that will not suck 100%.

That's the plan, to get it while I can. I'll just spend the rest of my life driving old stuff after that. I think buying a new &#036;h&#33;box is a crazy waste of money. No way will I ever buy a new car that I don't like!

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i read a while back that the next gen roadsters would be on a shortened alpha.

at least with alpha you can get a trunk.

7,8 years ago, everyone was bleating 'you need niche models'. hence, the solstice.

now its all, volume sellers.

problem. not every model by every manuf will survive in the market as a volume seller.

another problem.....people like something unique. kappa is unique. had GM pulled their head out of their arse and given it a trunk and some cupholder and for guys like me, LEG ROOM.........kappa could have a long life if GM would tend to fixing some basic f-ck ups they made with it.

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The Gamma platform should be all GM needs to come back swinging. A Chevrolet and a Cadillac, each color-coded to denote a separate model. And they should look exactly the same except for grilles and taillight lenses. My revised 2015 GM lineup consists of this:

White Gamma Chevrolet: Cruze

Red Gamma Chevrolet: Corvette

Yellow Gamma Chevrolet: Camaro

Blue Gamma Chevrolet: Malibu

Brown Gamma Chevrolet: Impala

Green Gamma Chevrolet: Hybrid

Black Gamma Chevrolet: Silverado

Pearl White Gamma Cadillac: CTS

Firethorn Red Gamma Cadillac: XLR

Bronzemist Gamma Cadillac: DTS

Ivy Metallic Gamma Cadillac: Hybrid with leather

GM will need no more than these stellar automobiles to fight the Asian brands and any remaining domestic competition by that time.

Edited by ocnblu
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Whatever may come in Chrysler's future one thing is for sure:

They came out with ALL their guns blazing, they might not

live to see 2050, or maybe even 2025 or who knows...

maybe even worse.... :(

But whatever happens they did NOT pu&&y out, crawl into

a hole deep like Saddan Insane & cry while curled into fetal

position, unwilling to do anything other than blame the bad

guy (government, consumers, beancounters....)

The GM of 2008 can not hold a candle to the Chrysler of

2008... sure they have a lot of &#036;h&#33;boxes with FWD but the

enthusiast can choose one of several RWD mainstream,

practical products including a SEDAN, WAGON & COUPE!!!

I wish the Challenger was a hardtop but, the Camaro was

also dumbed down into a frameless-door 2dr SEDAN too.

The SRTs are not a shame to the classic cars of Mopar's

past... the "directo connection" drag cars & hot rods...

But a FWD Impala SS? Lucerne? DTS? :yuck::puke:

I'd rather see GM not make it much longer than see

them die a sloooow pathetic death making &#036;h&#33;piles

that have no redeming value other than being 0.1%

cooler than a typical Japanese FWD sedan.

Yeah... it's one of my many character flaws... I just

can't help but be vocal if I witness wrong-doing, I

want to take action, step up, put my money where

my mouth is & do the right thing... or even if I can

only shout from the side-lines, I still give it my ALL!

Right you are. Chrysler may be taking a beating from the media and sales of some of their crappy offerings (all FWD ironically :wink), but when push comes to shove they have always delivered, and aren't afraid to do what others are afraid to do, and the LX is one of the best recent examples. Chrysler is having a tough time, but they are working on improving their cars, the new Ram and Patriot are proof of this.

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The Gamma platform should be all GM needs to come back swinging. A Chevrolet and a Cadillac, each color-coded to denote a separate model. And they should look exactly the same except for grilles and taillight lenses. My revised 2015 GM lineup consists of this:

White Gamma Chevrolet: Cruze

Red Gamma Chevrolet: Corvette

Yellow Gamma Chevrolet: Camaro

Blue Gamma Chevrolet: Malibu

Brown Gamma Chevrolet: Impala

Green Gamma Chevrolet: Hybrid

Black Gamma Chevrolet: Silverado

Pearl White Gamma Cadillac: CTS

Firethorn Red Gamma Cadillac: XLR

Bronzemist Gamma Cadillac: DTS

Ivy Metallic Gamma Cadillac: Hybrid with leather

GM will need no more than these stellar automobiles to fight the Asian brands and any remaining domestic competition by that time.

Brilliant!! Success is guaranteed. :)

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There is something fundamentally wrong with GM's desire to do boring cars as a means to survive. GM doesn't do boring well, that is the province of the asian brands, they need to do interesting well instead. GM's better days have always been marked by offering the distinctive rather than the mundane. Volume and distinction need not be mutually exclusive, it just takes a great product. GM will never outbland the blandmobiles, so it really ought to just be itself.

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There is something fundamentally wrong with GM's desire to do boring cars as a means to survive. GM doesn't do boring well, that is the province of the asian brands, they need to do interesting well instead. GM's better days have always been marked by offering the distinctive rather than the mundane. Volume and distinction need not be mutually exclusive, it just takes a great product. GM will never outbland the blandmobiles, so it really ought to just be itself.

The problem is, the sales of Toyotas clearly show that Americans want bland..they demand vanilla...thus, GM has been focusing on boring with mixed results for 25+ years...

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This can be traced back to too many models, too many brands. Saab is selling under 25k units a year in the US with the 9-5 sedan/wagon, 9-3 convertible/sedan/wagon and 9-7x. The Kappas are a better investment than the Saab brand. GM has to shed some brands and focus resources into Chevy, Cadillac and 1 or 2 other brands. 4 strong brands is better than 1 good and 7 weak.

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The problem is, the sales of Toyotas clearly show that Americans want bland..they demand vanilla...thus, GM has been focusing on boring with mixed results for 25+ years...

Clearly, that has been a serious mistake.

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The problem is, the sales of Toyotas clearly show that Americans want bland..they demand vanilla...thus, GM has been focusing on boring with mixed results for 25+ years...

Explains the 'success' of Disneyworld, Hannah Montana, "High School Musical" (I thru XVII) WalMart* etc...

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Explains the 'success' of Disneyworld, Hannah Montana, "High School Musical" (I thru XVII) WalMart* etc...

Yes, bland, mainstream crap... I guess Toyota has built better blandmobiles than GM has, or least, cars that were perceived to be better.

Edited by moltar
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I remember reading a quote by Kurt Vonnegut that went, "We probably could have saved ourselves, but were too damned lazy to try very hard ... and too damn cheap." Now, why do I only see a top-ranking GM executive saying those exact words the theoretical day after the company goes down?

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The problem is, the sales of Toyotas clearly show that Americans want bland..they demand vanilla...thus, GM has been focusing on boring with mixed results for 25+ years...

I don't think that it has as much to do with blandness as it does with the perception that anything made by Toyota is more efficient, reliable, or otherwise superior to anything that GM makes.

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The Gamma platform should be all GM needs to come back swinging. A Chevrolet and a Cadillac, each color-coded to denote a separate model. And they should look exactly the same except for grilles and taillight lenses. My revised 2015 GM lineup consists of this:

White Gamma Chevrolet: Cruze

Red Gamma Chevrolet: Corvette

Yellow Gamma Chevrolet: Camaro

Blue Gamma Chevrolet: Malibu

Brown Gamma Chevrolet: Impala

Green Gamma Chevrolet: Hybrid

Black Gamma Chevrolet: Silverado

Pearl White Gamma Cadillac: CTS

Firethorn Red Gamma Cadillac: XLR

Bronzemist Gamma Cadillac: DTS

Ivy Metallic Gamma Cadillac: Hybrid with leather

GM will need no more than these stellar automobiles to fight the Asian brands and any remaining domestic competition by that time.

THAT is the stuidest thing I've ever heard in my life...

Cleary the Cadillac DTS would be "Cappuccino'' :rolleyes:

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Each day I lose a little more faith in GM. I feel like we've been dangled all kinds of goodies only to have GM ultimately go back on its word. GM's reactionary, knee-jerk attitude will be the death of this once unstoppable company. You can't make great product if you are constantly shifting gears, scrapping plans, and wasting money.

Killing Kappa after only one generation and two cars...what an utter waste...

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Each day I lose a little more faith in GM. I feel like we've been dangled all kinds of goodies only to have GM ultimately go back on its word. GM's reactionary, knee-jerk attitude will be the death of this once unstoppable company. You can't make great product if you are constantly shifting gears, scrapping plans, and wasting money.

Killing Kappa after only one generation and two cars...what an utter waste...

Again, I think of that Kurt Vonnegut quote upon reading this.

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The problem is, the sales of Toyotas clearly show that Americans want bland..they demand vanilla...thus, GM has been focusing on boring with mixed results for 25+ years...

I don't think so...

americans are very fashion conscious and they all seem to love new classic "detroit autos" that reflect fashion and tend to be unique.

What sells the asian brand though is the details. the details that GM and the others haven't been able to get right. If you bring a beautiful design out, but the materials suck and the quality is bad and the resale is low and the (insert other misc detail here) isn't up to par, then americans would rather play it safe.

A car is a major investment, especially this day in age. And americans aren't going to invest in something that seems unsafe.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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There is something fundamentally wrong with GM's desire to do boring cars as a means to survive. GM doesn't do boring well, that is the province of the asian brands, they need to do interesting well instead. GM's better days have always been marked by offering the distinctive rather than the mundane. Volume and distinction need not be mutually exclusive, it just takes a great product. GM will never outbland the blandmobiles, so it really ought to just be itself.

Agreed...

The only way for GM to get ahead of the asians is to be innovative and do what they do best. imitation has gotten them no where for the last 25 years and that will continue to be the case as long as the Detroit companies try to be what they are not. the consumer knows this and sees right through it.

By not capitalizing on what makes GM GM, they are missing out on one of the biggest opportunities they've ever had. Especially now that the nostalgia kick has been in full swing.

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This can be traced back to too many models, too many brands. Saab is selling under 25k units a year in the US with the 9-5 sedan/wagon, 9-3 convertible/sedan/wagon and 9-7x. The Kappas are a better investment than the Saab brand. GM has to shed some brands and focus resources into Chevy, Cadillac and 1 or 2 other brands. 4 strong brands is better than 1 good and 7 weak.

We have 4 strong divisions.

1) Chevrolet

2) Saturn

3) Buick/Pontiac/GMC

4) Cadillac/Saab/Hummer

:D

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I think no division needs to die...

but IF it comes to that, these three should be FIRST!!!

- Hummer

- SAAB

- Saturn

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I hate being so negative, but I don't see much interesting in the future of GM beyond what is out now and coming in the short term (Camaro, CTS coupe, etc) for RWD fans like myself. I don't do FWD..

I understand FOG and 68s angst, I have it also, just not as vocal about it. :(

I would agree.

Chris

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I think no division needs to die...

but IF it comes to that, these three should be FIRST!!!

- Hummer

- SAAB

- Saturn

I would keep SAAB if possible, if it could be made profitable enough. I like the heritage of the company.

However, Hummer needs to go and Saturn needs serious help.

Chris

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Yes, bland, mainstream crap... I guess Toyota has built better blandmobiles than GM has, or least, cars that were perceived to be better.

Sadly, this is what people want. I am not religious per se, but went with my 18 year old aughter to church last Sunday at her request. She goes to one of those big Mega Churches sometimes. Of the 700+ cars in the parking lot, there was 1 Mustang GT and 1 Chrysler 300, and other than the Miata I drove over in, there was nothing even resembling an enthusiast car in the parking lot.

But TONS of camry's and such.

Which is why Toyota is getting rich. People want 97 flavors of Camry, for whatever reason.

Chris

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