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William Maley

Quick Drive: 2020 Toyota Tundra TRD Pro CrewMax

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The Toyota Tundra holds the title of being the oldest full-size truck, coming in at thirteen years without any sort of redesign. On one hand, this makes the Tundra a very reliable and dependable truck. On the other hand, the Tundra isn’t able to fully compete with the likes GM, Ram, or Ford with their more modern designs and hardware. But there is one exception to this where the Tundra can be a good alternative to the Detroit Three, and it comes in the form of the TRD Pro.

  • Color can do a lot to a vehicle such as making an older model look modern or highlighting some of the polarizing elements of a design. This Army Green paint, which is new on all TRD Pros for 2020 makes the Tundra look younger and a bit more aggressive. 
  • Inside, you can tell that the Tundra is getting up there in age. The design hasn’t changed much and material quality cannot even compare to the likes of GM and Ram’s trucks. But I like the large buttons and knobs for various controls. Not only does it make it easier to find, but it means you can have a set of gloves on and easily control various aspects.
  • One key improvement for 2020 is Apple CarPlay and Android Auto being added to the Tundra’s Entune system, which gives drivers another choice in their infotainment choices.
  • The Crewmax model seen here is huge. Step into the back seat and you might think you entered a limo with an endless amount of head and legroom on offer. I do wish the seats had a little bit more padding.
  • Only one engine is available on the 2020 Tundra; a 5.7L V8 with 381 horsepower and 401 pound-feet of torque. This is teamed with a six-speed automatic and four-wheel drive.
  • This engine provides plenty of thrust and provides an engine burble that you might expect from one of the Detroit three’s V8 trucks. The automatic is very smooth when changing gear and seems to where it needs to be in any situation.
  • The downside to this V8 is fuel economy. The EPA says TRD Pro CrewMax will return 13 City/17 Highway/14 Combined. I saw an average of 14.2 mpg during my week of a 60/40 mix of highway and city driving. Maybe a couple more gears for the automatic could improve this.
  • Toyota has kitted the Tundra TRD Pro with some serious off-road chops; Fox internal bypass dampers for all four corners, TRD springs that increase wheel travel, and a set of Michelin LTX off-road tires. Unfortunately, I didn’t get a chance to try it off-road. But other reviewers who have taken it off the beaten path report the TRD Pro is very capable. 
  • What I can report is the changes to the suspension makes for a surprisingly comfortable ride.
  • This suspension does mean you will experience a fair amount of body roll when cornering, but that is to be expected with a truck like this.
  • My Tundra TRD Pro CrewMax starts at $52,780. With some accessories and destination, the price climbs $55,020.
  • The Tundra is getting long in the tooth as evidenced by the interior and poor fuel economy from the V8 engine. But the TRD Pro helps freshen the Tundra a bit and makes a compelling option for those who plan on spending more time off the beaten path.

Disclaimer: Toyota Provided the Tundra, Insurance, and One Tank of Gas

Year: 2020
Make: Toyota
Model: Tundra
Trim: TRD Pro CrewMax
Engine: 5.7L DOHC 32-Valve i-FORCE V8
Driveline: Six-Speed Automatic, Four-Wheel Drive
Horsepower @ RPM: 381 @ 5,600
Torque @ RPM: 401 @ 3,600
Fuel Economy: City/Highway/Combined - 13/17/14
Curb Weight: N/A
Location of Manufacture: San Antonio, TX 
Base Price: $52,780
As Tested Price: $55,020 (Includes $1,495.00 Destination Charge)

Options:
Chrome Tube Steps - $535.00
Stainless Steel Door Edge Guard - $140.00
Door Sill Protector - $70.00


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This is one truck that will continue to sell to the Toyota Faithful. Otherwise it is a totally forgettable truck.

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LOL 14 MPG average?  NOPE.

Plus it continues to irk me when I see US flags and other patriotic stickers on foreign vehicles.  Should be a white field with a red dot, not our dear old Stars & Stripes on there.

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2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

LOL 14 MPG average?  NOPE.

Plus it continues to irk me when I see US flags and other patriotic stickers on foreign vehicles.  Should be a white field with a red dot, not our dear old Stars & Stripes on there.

Well, it is built in San Antonio Texas.  At the same time, I see no reason to actually BUY a Tundra.

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$55K? For a toyoter??

>>"On one hand, this makes the Tundra a very reliable and dependable truck. "<<
Does it?

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The Tundra was long in the tooth about 6 years ago

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On 7/22/2020 at 4:01 PM, balthazar said:

$55K? For a toyoter??

>>"On one hand, this makes the Tundra a very reliable and dependable truck. "<<
Does it?

Yep, it does. That V8 is still old school with none of that annoying DOD tech that seems to fail on the other trucks to save a little fuel. To start/stop tech which is still quite annoying.... or even turbo engines.

Less stuff to break. 🙂  Still an ugly truck though......

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Posted (edited)
On 7/22/2020 at 1:19 PM, ocnblu said:

LOL 14 MPG average?  NOPE.

Plus it continues to irk me when I see US flags and other patriotic stickers on foreign vehicles.  Should be a white field with a red dot, not our dear old Stars & Stripes on there.

It is built in US and I know personally couple veterans that drive them.  It is what they sacrificed earned people right to buy whatever they want (especially if it is built in US) and put any f@cking stickers they want to on their truck. 

On 7/22/2020 at 4:01 PM, balthazar said:

$55K? For a toyoter??

>>"On one hand, this makes the Tundra a very reliable and dependable truck. "<<
Does it?

Yes it does.  More reliable than F-150 and Silverado based what I hear from my coworkers that drive trucks.  Old but reliable V8 and electronics that are way less glitchy.  Not necessary better but they are more reliable.

Edited by ykX

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1 hour ago, ykX said:

It is built in US and I know personally couple veterans that drive them.  It is what they sacrificed earned people right to buy whatever they want (especially if it is built in US) and put any f@cking stickers they want to on their truck. 

Yes it does.  More reliable than F-150 and Silverado based what I hear from my coworkers that drive trucks.  Old but reliable V8 and electronics that are way less glitchy.  Not necessary better but they are more reliable.

When your dated like a baby boomer, in a baby boomer's eyes it might seem more reliable, but clearly it is stuck in the past. I have seen just as many on tow trucks as I have seen fords or GM. 

Would be interesting to see the average age of buyers for these trucks.

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While some folk may quibble with the definition of 'reliable', I can't ignore all-too-common examples of toyoter engineering/ quality/ reliability  like this

tac.jpg

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, balthazar said:

While some folk may quibble with the definition of 'reliable', I can't ignore all-too-common examples of toyoter engineering/ quality/ reliability  like this

tac.jpg

You should find even older pictures to prove your point.  My co-worker Silverado rusted so bad he could not pass inspection.

 

27 minutes ago, David said:

When your dated like a baby boomer, in a baby boomer's eyes it might seem more reliable, but clearly it is stuck in the past. I have seen just as many on tow trucks as I have seen fords or GM. 

Would be interesting to see the average age of buyers for these trucks.

I am in 40s and my colleagues are in early 50s.

Few after having Silverado or F-150 with numerous electrical or reliability issues swore next one will be Tundra.  As a matter of fact I have two co-workers, one with 2014 F-150 and another with 2014 Tundra.  F-150 had and still has a lot of electrical issues, stereo doesn't work right, backup camera stops working, windows refuse to go up etc, etc.  Tundra had absolutely no issues at all.

Edited by ykX
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ykX said:

It is built in US

Honestly...

Big PHOQUING deal that its built in the US...

It REALLY means nothing...

3 hours ago, ykX said:

I know personally couple veterans that drive them.  It is what they sacrificed earned people right to buy whatever they want

Sure!   Americans...Canadians...are FREE to buy what they want.

So are German and Japanese folk. These people are FREE to buy whatever they want too.

Oh...please stop with this bullshyte argument insinuating that ONLY Americans have fought  for their freedoms for their people to be free.

France, Britain, Greece and many many many....many many many....many many other nations and tribes and clans over the hundreds of thousands of years humans have been roaming the phoquing planet have fought oppressions of all  kinds JUST to be free... 

3 hours ago, ykX said:

(especially if it is built in US) and put any f@cking stickers they want to on their truck. 

Yeah but....really though.

Where is the REAL American pride?

Germans and Japanese in Germany and Japan ALL buy cars that are OWNED by German and Japanese firms...   These people are TRULY proud to be...   They believe in their engineering.

I guess anything engineered in America is crap?  

THAT is what you believe?

Look at the last 150 years, including 2020, and YOU tell ME with a straight face that America sucks in engineering stuff.   

Made in America by a foreign company means absolutely NOTHING...

Toyoter (and evidently that dumb rag of a mag consumer report) has BRAINWASHED you into thinking all kinds of stupid things....)

3 hours ago, ykX said:

Yes it does.  More reliable than F-150 and Silverado based what I hear from my coworkers that drive trucks.  Old but reliable V8 and electronics that are way less glitchy.  Not necessary better but they are more reliable.

Case in point...

All those frame rusts, all those engine slugs, all those runaway cars...and Consumer Reports, nor yourself...have ANY hatred towards Toyoter, but you loathe GM?

You ARE free to think what you wanna think and buy what you wanna buy... 

I aint here to change your mind about NOTHING.  I dont care!

But...Im letting YOU know...I aint falling for YOUR bullshyte argument...

And Im calling you out on it...

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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It looks pretty sweet and that's half of what matters in a vehicle. 

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

While some folk may quibble with the definition of 'reliable', I can't ignore all-too-common examples of toyoter engineering/ quality/ reliability  like this

tac.jpg

"common", look how old that truck is. That wasn't made this decade.

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@oldshurst442 What are you rumbling about? 

If something means nothing to you it doesn't means it means nothing to other people.  Yes, Toyota is Japanese company, but Tundra is designed and built in US giving jobs to thousands people in US.  On the American Made index Tundra is rated at #16 while F-150 is rated #44, SIlverado is at #77.

And BTW those frame rusts everyone comes back to all the time were happening 20 years ago.  That argument is long gone.  

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Given how old the Tundra is, it still looks good.   Don't see them often here, maybe more common on the West Coast..

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30 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Given how old the Tundra is, it still looks good.   Don't see them often here, maybe more common on the West Coast..

Yup, plenty of the Turda out here. Plenty of the old Toy Pickups with frame issues too.

image.png

This is a pic from Pittsburg where they salt so heavily to insure making you have to buy a new auto every 4 to 5 years I guess. :P 

image.png

New England talking about how fast the frames rust out due to the salt exposure.

image.png

2004 Toyota Tacoma has the frame rust out in 2016. 12 years. I have never seen this on a Ford or GM truck before. But I do get that everything rusts out.

 

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Posted (edited)

Those are all old ones, though...and Tacomas, not Tundras.  The thing I see here in NE Ohio is a lot of cab and bed rust out on 10-20 yr old Rams, Fords and GM trucks...frames probably rusty also. 

Rusty framed Tacomas from 15-20 years ago have no relevance on what they are building now.

Edited by Robert Hall
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• No one said how old the picture I posted was.

• Yes, they rusted out / broke in half / had to be scrapped a decade ago. But it speaks to the Company that such a occurrence could even happen on their watch. That catastrophic structural failure may not mean much to hardcore loyalists (??), but coupled with the sixty million other vehicles recalled in a decade & a half... that paints a pretty damning portrait.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, balthazar said:

• No one said how old the picture I posted was.

• Yes, they rusted out / broke in half / had to be scrapped a decade ago. But it speaks to the Company that such a occurrence could even happen on their watch. That catastrophic structural failure may not mean much to hardcore loyalists (??), but coupled with the sixty million other vehicles recalled in a decade & a half... that paints a pretty damning portrait.

Rusty framed Tacomas from 15-20 years ago have no relevance to what they are building now.

Just like the ignition recall on old vehicles has no relevance to what GM is building now. 

Edited by Robert Hall
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The warranty campaign covered up to 2012 vehicles. That's 8 years ago, not 20. [How old is the current tundra's frame?]

No; a single event doesn't necc mean anything RE a current, different product. But a monsoon of problems, deficiencies, engineering cost-cutting and recalls over 20 years speaks loudly to a corporate mindset / SOP. Plenty of choices out there, not worth the risk on a mediocre appliance.

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5 minutes ago, balthazar said:


No; a single event doesn't necc mean anything RE a current, different product. But a monsoon of problems, deficiencies, engineering cost-cutting and recalls over 20 years speaks loudly to a corporate mindset / SOP. Plenty of choices out there, not worth the risk on a mediocre appliance.

Unfortunately, exactly same thing and even more can be said about GM and Ford products.  

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47 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

What issues was the Tundra having? All I saw was pictures of the Tacoma. 

None that I know of...just people stirring up shit...

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5 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

None that I know of...just people stirring up &#036;h&#33;...

That's what it looked like to me. 

fOrEiGn tRuCk bAd

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26 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

That's what it looked like to me. 

fOrEiGn tRuCk bAd

Sales of Tundras and Tacomas are also SAD compared to the domestics.  Remember that too.

BTW: Do modern Tacomas have that frame damage issue that 10-20 year old ones do?

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

None that I know of...just people stirring up shit...

Yeah- look into the frame rot lawsuit; it covered tacomas, tundras and sequoias. 4-runners and T100s also had severe rot issues.
Or... keep your head in the sand. ;)

Edited by balthazar
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Shoot, current generation Tundra bed floors rust out above the floor crossmembers... where the beds are bolted to the frame.  I've seen many of them that way here in SE PA. 

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This is an interesting site. Toyota Tundra has a total of 51 recalls from the last 20 years of it's production. Not too bad. There are 7 issues under investigation with 2004 model year having 5 issues under investigation for brakes, suspension issues, airbags and seatbelts. 

The final big thing is the TSBs, 788 in total with the 2014 Model year having the most at 282 TSBs.

http://www.toyotaproblems.com/models/tundra/recalls/

Worst year is 2010, Major electrical problems, engine and transmission problems along with wheel and frame issue for not supporting stated loads.

This I do find very interesting, all the open cases that Toyota has yet to resolve around the following issues:

See through rusted out frame assemblies, melting dashboards, Engine Sludge, Soy wire coating that rodents love to chew, oil consumption lawsuit, and so much more.

http://www.toyotaproblems.com/problems/

Tundra is Baby Boomer tech, but clearly has a sludge of problems which really makes one question the reliability of the product.

In regards to the service men and woman who buy Asian or European name plated auto's. Yes you have given to your country, yes democracy allows you to pick your product you want to spend your own hard earned coin on.

The question to be asked is how do you changed American companies to build better products if you will not support them and give them the feedback to improve their products?

On top of this, if your going to go around and preach about supporting your own country, how does that work when your money goes out in profits to other country based companies supporting another country over your own?

Just saying, do you support your own US based Companies that pay taxes into the US Government and supports these companies or do you let it go over seas and support a foreign country?

Food for thought!

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485FE1F5-6646-4F51-B672-40C18E6B9ED5.jpg

images.jpg

20171230_115155.jpg

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18 minutes ago, David said:

Tundra has a total of 51 recalls from the last 20 years of it's production. Not too bad. There are the TSBs, 788 in total...

3 recalls AND 20 TSBs PER YEAR and that’s “not bad”???????

That’s what you call a ‘shitbox’, especially with the severity involved. 

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6 minutes ago, balthazar said:

3 recalls AND 20 TSBs PER YEAR and that’s “not bad”???????

That’s what you call a ‘shitbox’, especially with the severity involved. 

Same company also does all the other auto companies and here is how Ford F-150 fairs.

Over the last 37 years, 136 Recalls, 70 investigations, 1,504 TSBs. This equals to 3.67 recalls, 1.89 investigations and 40.65 TSBs per year.

http://www.fordproblems.com/models/f-150/recalls/

Chevrolet Silverado from 1999 to current or last 21 years.

12 recalls, 3 investigations, 2,635 TSBs. Equals to .57 Recalls, 0.14 investigations, 125.47 TSBs per year.

http://www.chevroletproblems.com/models/silverado-1500/

GMC Sierra 1500 from 1999 to current or last 21 years.

24 recalls, 5 investigations and 2,539 TSBs. Equals to 1.14 recalls, 0.24 investigations and 120.90 TSBs per year.

http://www.gmcproblems.com/models/sierra-1500/

I am sure if we add together the recalls, investigations and TSBs for the 150, 250 and 350, same with 1500, 2500 and 3500 the numbers would go up.

Toyota does beat them in much less TSBs per year with only an average of 39.4 TSBs.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, ykX said:

@oldshurst442 What are you rumbling about? 

If something means nothing to you it doesn't means it means nothing to other people.  Yes, Toyota is Japanese company, but Tundra is designed and built in US giving jobs to thousands people in US.  On the American Made index Tundra is rated at #16 while F-150 is rated #44, SIlverado is at #77.

And BTW those frame rusts everyone comes back to all the time were happening 20 years ago.  That argument is long gone.  

It seems to me that you are making excuses for yourself to feel better about it...

BTW...GM's problems were 20 years and OLDER too...

Yet...for some reason, you only hold GM accountable...  

Like I said. I dont care what you buy. Your pocket, not mine.  Just stop with the bullshyte excuses.  

And I never said fOreIGn trUCk BaD 

I said...its STUPID to think and give pride to FOREIGN owned products made in America any value...and to blast American owned product for problems they had and to IGNORE foreign owned product problems...

You got a problem with American companies building their products elsewhere BUT the USA....talk to Wallstreet about that...

Change your POLITICAL environment, change YOUR OWN mindset and not ONLY be ready to pay  a lot more money for your American owned American built products, but thinking you have NO CHOICE BUT to pay a lot more  for your American owned American built products TO TRULY SUPPORT YOUR FELLOW AMERICAN.

AMERICAN WORKERS AND SERVICE PEOPLE DESERVE A LOT MORE MONEY THAN THEY ARE PAID NOW...

You see...

10 hours ago, ykX said:

but Tundra is designed and built in US giving jobs to thousands people in US.

THAT IS AN EMPTY PHOQUING ARGUMENT...   YOU WANT TO BE A GOOD AMERICAN...THEN FORCE YOUR POLITICIANS AND YOUR COUNTRYMEN TO ACCEPT THAT CONSUMER GOODS BUILT IN AMERICA WILL BE MORE EXPENSIVE DUE TO THE FACT THAT AMERICAN WORKERS DESERVE A BETTER PAY, BUT FACTORIES WILL BE RETURNING BACK TO THE USA...AND AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL HAVE JOBS TO PAY FOR AMERICAN BUILT PRODUCTS...

LIKE USUAL....FOLK LIKE YOU ALWAYS BARK UP THE WRONG TREE. BELIEVE IN SOME WEIRD PHOQUING LIE, AND STUPIDLY LIVE BY A CODE THAT ONLY DOES YOU HARM...

ANOTHER EXAMPLE:   THE FREEDOM OF NOT WEARING A MASK DURING A PHOQUING PANDEMIC...

WAVE FLAGGING, FREEDOM CRYING NONSENSE...

But yeah...buy your trouble free Toyoter to your heart's content...  Like I said...I dont give a shyte.  Your life. Not mine.  Your money, not mine.  Just STOP with the bullshyte arguments...

 

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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16 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Sales of Tundras and Tacomas are also SAD compared to the domestics.  Remember that too.

BTW: Do modern Tacomas have that frame damage issue that 10-20 year old ones do?

Tundra sales are garbage and always have been. The Tacoma, however, continues to outsell the domestics. Not sure where you got the notion that Tacoma sales are bad. 

And good grief! What the hell happened on this thread? Sounds like a few folks need a bed and med check. 

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in 2019, the 'coma outsold the GM mid-size pickups by about 93K units.
It's like the.... corolla of the mid-size truck segment. Doesn't seem to matter how mediocre it is (49 recalls, with a couple years earning a recall about every 3.5 weeks), it keeps finding buyers.

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On 7/24/2020 at 6:35 PM, David said:

The question to be asked is how do you changed American companies to build better products if you will not support them and give them the feedback to improve their products?

On top of this, if your going to go around and preach about supporting your own country, how does that work when your money goes out in profits to other country based companies supporting another country over your own?

Profits go to CEOs and shareholders while actual jobs for average people are going to Mexico, China and Canada.  I would rather give my money to the company that gives jobs to American workers than to the bean counters and upper management.

I don't own a Toyota and unlikely will, but my wife drives MDX that was designed and build in US.  And I would rather give money to Honda that provides thousands of jobs in Ohio and Alabama, than to GM that outsorces more than 50% of the product to foreign countries.

Unlike most people on this forum I work in manufacturing.  I happen to work for an American company but I have seen many American companies outsorce manufacturing overseas.  I have sern thousands of people loose jobs because of that, while the tip brass sits here getting richer.  So excuse if I care more about American jobs than CEOs and shareholders.

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Why are 'shareholders' lumped in with 'CEOs'?
Is the assumption here that shareholders are all millionaires lounging on their yachts? Instead of millions of everyday people with pensions & 401Ks, hoping to be able to retire before age 85?

Profits go to CEOs and shareholders while actual jobs for average people are going to Mexico, China and Canada. 

I would rather give my money to the company that gives jobs to American workers than to the bean counters and upper management.


honda & toyota's profits also go to CEOs, upper management & shareholders (tho that last one- not in the U.S.).

Ford built nearly 2,000,000 vehicles in the US in 2019, honda built 1.2 million. Ford employs 85,000 in the U.S., honda employs 31,000.
Between these 2 examples, it is Ford who is giving jobs to American workers, not Honda. And that number used to be much higher, but once you slice a pizza into 80 slices, everyone gets less pizza.

 

BTW, honda also has 2 plants in Mexico, one just opened in 2014. That would be, quite arguably, 'taking jobs away from American workers', no?

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Ford built nearly 2,000,000 vehicles in the US in 2019, honda built 1.2 million. Ford employs 85,000 in the U.S., honda employs 31,000

Honda is much smaller company to compare to Ford.  However, MDX and Pilot have substantially more US content than Explorer.  Toyota employs in the US 135000 people.  GM employs 86000.

Edited by ykX
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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Why are 'shareholders' lumped in with 'CEOs'?

Because if you have no good paying manufacturing or engineering jobs here, you will not be able to afford these shares or to save for the retirement.  I have seen many companies, including mine to make decisions that are not good for the workers or even for the future of said company, but only to make it look for a short period of time so that bottom line will look good and shares god forbid will not drop.  I can't go to details but i have seen time and time again how incredibly stupid decisions are made only because of bean counters trying to pad the bottom line.

Edited by ykX
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• "stupid decisions" :: Sure- look at so many of toyoter's corporate decisions.

• Most people don't buy equities out-of-pocket; their 401Ks are invested in them without their direct input. That's 100 million people, which is a LOT of John & Jane Q Publics.

GM employs 86000.


Obviously with vendor outsourcing and increased robotics, numbers will change. But GM used to employ 600,000. I'm not aware the cumulative investment in the U.S. there has ever been attempted to be calculated.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ykX said:

Profits go to CEOs and shareholders while actual jobs for average people are going to Mexico, China and Canada.  I would rather give my money to the company that gives jobs to American workers than to the bean counters and upper management.

So the truth comes out...

Nothing to do with "reliability" then...   

I may need a bed with my meds...but there is a reason I write my posts the way I do...

The rest...the arguing of who employs more and where the money goes and to whom is for another thread...  And one that is interesting and would be informative...

But...GM and Chrysler and Ford building cars in Canada is a bad thing?  You view that as a negative?  I hope you dont.  Because it undermines the trillion dollar trade both our countries enjoy for the last...well, since forever.  Since the days before Paleface hadnt crossed the Atlantic yet  and only the Native American Indians lived here...   In other words, there was never really any borders here.  Ever.  Between the different tribes there were alliances  and with others there was war, but there was always trade between everybody.   And discussion of that, well, that too would be for another another time in another thread...

PS: To inform you...   I care a lot for the American worker. Even as a Canadian, I care a whole lot.   If you read closely to what I wrote, you and I are saying the same thing...    I just cut to the chase and eliminate the BS...

Oh...just to let you know...

Quote

I know personally couple veterans that drive them.  It is what they sacrificed earned people right to buy whatever they want

That quote...  

There was a time when veterans of your country would NEVER EVER consider a car made by ANY Japanese or German car maker...

How long does it take to heal wounds?  I know WW2 ended in 1945...   But to ease your conscience about it all, American money went on to rebuild Toyota and Mazda, Mercedes Benz and BMW.  

But there is another factor nobody considers in these conversations.

Japan and Germany make it very very very difficult, almost impossible for others to build factories in their countries. China forces others to partner up with Chinese companies.

Tesla pulled a miracle with Germany.  

Opel was GM property and GM had sensitive ties with Hitler...  

Maybe the US is too damned generous with their openness with foreign factories in their homeland?

But dont forget though, after WW2, the US was the ONLY one left standing with factories still standing and running and producing all kinds of stuff that the world consumed.  

Its like Ford, GM, Coca-Cola etc...benefited from all the one-sidedness and that spilled over to the American  people?    I guess that is the price we paid for with our  Rock-N-Roll and milkshakes and chrome and drive-in movie theatres in the 1950s and 1960s I guess...

Edited by oldshurst442
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Posted (edited)

In other words...

Its only phoquing fair for GM, Ford. Coca-Cola, Apple, Timex to build factories all over the world for those people in those places to work, since all those phoquing people buy American goods...  And since 19phoquing45...

I have played two sides of the coin just now...

1st being that corporate culture in America has been an enemy to the American worker for awhile now.  And all corporations from all over the world, including the American ones, all have been brainwashing the American public with bullshyte messages.  And the American people have ceased to keep their eye on the ball...  

The other point,  as the world got more richer and on the same economical playing field as the US and Canada, world trade got inevitable and trade had to be equalized between the nations.  This is where we at.  Mexicans have bought Chebbies for a long phoquing time.  Its only fair for GM to build some factories there...   Problem is, the wage gap between the American worker and the Mexican worker is well... you know.    its not only American car companies that see an advantage of the Mexican worker labour costs.  BMW and Nissan and others have factories there...

Im rambling, I know...

So much to say.  Thing is, its not as clean cut and dry just to blame Wallstreet and GM and beancounters as to why American factories have left town.  Nixon with the opening of the West to China started it in the 1970s. Reagan with Global trade talks in the 1980s and well, we are here today.  But somewhere in between that, American society started hating on American manufacturing and started shytting on the American worker, service or production line worker, and we are where we are today...

In other words,  German cars for the German market are made in Germany and the Germans have pride in their worker and in their cars and only buy German cars. Ditto for the Japanese in Japan.  

In the US,  well, NONE of that exists....  Any of it...   

Its NOT just General Motors we gotta blame here...

Edited by oldshurst442

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33 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Opel was GM property and GM had sensitive ties with Hitler... 

You may care to define this statement further, but in the meantime; nope.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, balthazar said:

You may care to define this statement further, but in the meantime; nope.

  Im saying...that GM owned Opel when Hitler was voted in power. Hitler became a dictator and undoubtedly had many many "business" meetings with GM brass (Opel or Detroit brass)  about  cars...and about the upcoming war effort...

Italeri Kfz. 305 Opel Blitz in 1:35 (#216) Afrika Korps | iModeler

Sensitive ties to Hitler...   

And NOBODY could deny that. Well, one could deny it...

 

Edited by oldshurst442
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Yes- GM bought Opel in '29. Hitler undoubtedly had meetings with those running the Opel plant in Germany. Of course, once 1939 happened, Nazi Germany took over the Opel plant entirely and converted it to their own wartime production desires, literally installing Party members to run the plant.

I've not seen any documentation that GM's Detroit execs ever talked with Nazi Germany after '39. They testified they had no working knowledge of the Opel factory's operations, production, income or even condition; there was zero word about it out of Germany. All war years' Opel income was reported as '0'. GMNA didn't regain physical control of the Opel plant until 1948; 3 years after the end of WWII.

Whom Hitler DID have extensive 'sensitive meetings' with was volkswagen, BMW and mercedes.

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Posted (edited)

^^^

Well...

The war started on Sept 1st 1939.

And there was a helluva lot of Opel  Blitz trucks doing the Blitzkrieg alongside and behind the Wehrmacht along the Poland landscape ON Sept 1st, 1939...

And those Opel Blitz trucks had military upgrades to them BEFORE Sept 1st, 1939...catch my drift...

And like you said...

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Of course, once 1939 happened, Nazi Germany took over the Opel plant entirely and converted it to their own wartime production desires, literally installing Party members to run the plant.

I've not seen any documentation that GM's Detroit execs ever talked with Nazi Germany after '39

Either GM lost their ability to control those plants waaaaaay before 1939... or they collaborated with the Nazis....

1. If they were forced to give up their plants AFTER 1939...they collaborated with the Nazis as, like I said...ON Sept 1st 1939, those THOUSANDS of Blitz trucks were ready to go...

2. If GM lost control of their plants sometime between 1933 (Hitler's election) and 1937-38...then why didnt GM WARN the American government that Hitler was planning war?    OK...its not as if the UK, France, America etc...were caught by surprise...but I also know for a fact that GM did not mention ANYTHING then or now, that the Nazi party ILLEGALLY took over their Opel factories...   So much so...that Hitler was Time man of the year in 1938...  EDIT: (Stalin in 1939)   (I thought Hitler got that title in 1939 also...) 

Like I said...

Sensitive Hitler ties no matter how you wanna slice the conspiracy theories and the allegations and the realities of the political landscape  AFTER 1918 and into the 1930s heading for another World War...   

 

PS: To be honest...there was nothing left of the Opel factories after 1945. B17 and Lancaster bombing raids, I guess.   GM REBUILT those factories after 1948...  

Edited by oldshurst442

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• I've read that 'Opel played nice' with the Nazi Party- they wanted to continue to stay in business. It was still independently run as an overseas subsidiary. I believe Opel lost control after 09.01.39, but research would confirm. This is an era when -Buick- would sell -Olds- raw materials by exchanging truckloads of goods for a literal check even tho they were in the same corporation a few towns apart.
• GM absolutely has stated then & now that the NP illegally took over their property- that's well documented via records and testimony. Not sure where you heard otherwise.
• Time magazine has nothing to do with GM, but it may be a significant portrait of the general state of knowledge in 1938.
 

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Posted (edited)

Back on topic, how about the 2020 TRD Pro?   I like the shade of green and how the model name is embossed on the rear fenders rather than a decal... I like the front end, simple and relative clean, not as busy and overwrought as many trucks are today. 

Edited by Robert Hall
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Posted (edited)
  • I heard things by folks who were alive then.  No longer alive now. 
  • Well documented could very well mean well doctored too.  Revised history is a very real thing.  We will never know the truth about that.  Allegations are just that. Allegations.  
  • You are right, Time magazine has NOTHING to do with GM.  The general state of knowledge then was to turn a blind eye to Nazi Germany, so you are right again that it does paint a significant portrait of the general state in 1938. So much so, that America ignored Nazi Germany up until 1941. And it took the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour to kick things into motion...officially.   Because unofficially, America contributed to the war effort. And...Hitler had declared war on America before 1941 I believe...
  • I could post links that share my point of view on this, but its just allegations, conspiracy theories and opinions at this point in time.  And in reality...WHO CARES???!!!  The war ened. The "good" side one.  (And "good" is definitely in quotation marks as even on our side,  we kinda fueled what was to be Mein Kampf and the evil to follow. Including the Anti-Semitism that came out of that election in Germany in 1933) 
  • And...Im a HUGE fan and believer of General Motors. Then and now.  I understand that business is business sometimes.  And when hostile environments exist where you do business, you do whatever it takes to survive...  I aint judging.  
  • But by that statement, We got another one of them sticky situations in China as we speak.  Trump's administration ordered the Chinese consulate closed in Houston with very serious allegations as to why that place should be closed down....  In retaliation, China did the same in Wuhan? for the American diplomatic office. The South China seas are a hot spot for US warships, Chinese war ships...   GM is doing business in China hands over fists and is heavily partnered with a  (several?) Chinese car manufacturers and suppliers...   If anything was to come out of this with bloodshed...what are we going to say then about GM?    Food for thought....
Edited by oldshurst442
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1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

Back on topic, how about the 2020 TRD Pro?

Pretty boring and very 2010.

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3 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Back on topic, how about the 2020 TRD Pro?   I like the shade of green and how the model name is embossed on the rear fenders rather than a decal... I like the front end, simple and relative clean, not as busy and overwrought as many trucks are today. 

Nice? Maybe for a dated 15 to 20 year old truck. :P 

Yea, I know this is a new truck, but it already looks like something that was a refresh from a decade or two now. Blah to me.

I will give them credit where credit is due in that TRD has done a better job I think in tying in off road aftermarket companies to give the public the impression the buyers want for off road play even though I doubt many of these trucks ever go off road in the way they are marketed.

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5 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Back on topic, how about the 2020 TRD Pro?

2020?

Im still flabbergasted  with the 2012 Tundra towing the Space Shuttle...  I STILL cant contain myself.      :rolleyes:

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50 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

2020?

Im still flabbergasted  with the 2012 Tundra towing the Space Shuttle...  I STILL cant contain myself.      :rolleyes:

Thought that was the 1912 Tundra towing it? 🤔 The truck is just so dated! :P 

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19 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Back on topic, how about the 2020 TRD Pro?   I like the shade of green and how the model name is embossed on the rear fenders rather than a decal... I like the front end, simple and relative clean, not as busy and overwrought as many trucks are today. 

I like the simplicity.  Definitely will take it over this mess of the front end

2020-chevrolet-silverado-1500-3-0-liter-

I do like the looks of the RAM the most though

Black1.jpg?resize=768,520&ssl=1

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Posted (edited)
On 7/25/2020 at 1:08 PM, balthazar said:

in 2019, the 'coma outsold the GM mid-size pickups by about 93K units.
It's like the.... corolla of the mid-size truck segment. Doesn't seem to matter how mediocre it is (49 recalls, with a couple years earning a recall about every 3.5 weeks), it keeps finding buyers.

Not disagreeing with your post but that was not reason for my reply to riviera. They made the statement that Tacoma sales were garbage like the Tundras when they are not, so much so that they sold double the number of Colorado’s last year despite the Colorado being the overall better truck. Brand loyalty 101, much like the F-150 and Silverado outselling RAM even when RAM has had the better truck at times. 
 

And sorry Balth, but I’m more than happy to show the sheer pile of twenty year old S-10s and first gen Colorado’s that turned to pure &#036;h&#33; since you seem to think that only the Tacoma should face that level of criticisms. Like them or not, they have earned their reputation for being solid trucks with a pretty healthy record in the reliability department. Their high resale values over the years back this up. 

Edited by surreal1272
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18 hours ago, balthazar said:

Pretty boring and very 2010.

How “exciting” does a pick up need to be? It’s a damn pick up. 

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On 7/24/2020 at 4:57 PM, riviera74 said:

Sales of Tundras and Tacomas are also SAD compared to the domestics.  Remember that too.

BTW: Do modern Tacomas have that frame damage issue that 10-20 year old ones do?

Tacomas lead the sales of the mid-size trucks...by a pretty good margin. As of Q2, they sold 51k Tacomas and the next closest was the Ranger with 25k units. 

Q2 Sales.JPG

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31 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

Not disagreeing with your post but that was not reason for my reply to riviera. They made the statement that Tacoma sales were garbage like the Tundras when they are not, so much so that they sold double the number of Colorado’s last year despite the Colorado being the overall better truck.
And sorry Balth, but I’m more than happy to show the sheer pile of twenty year old S-10s and first gen Colorado’s that turned to pure &#036;h&#33; since you seem to think that only the Tacoma should face that level of criticisms. Like them or not, they have earned their reputation for being solid trucks with a pretty healthy record in the reliability department.

No; we agreed : 'coma sales are not poor- they lead the segment. That's inarguable.

As far as being 'healthy & reliable' - the recalls not only are frequent to the point of sheer annoyance, too many are of a serious nature spilling over into 'unprecedented' territory. The reputation has not yet been tempered by recent reality, but that's a common occurrence.

My point was not to at all imply the Chevrolet's were better, as much as it was to point out that the toyoters AREN"T. That's the picture that needs adjustment.

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31 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

How “exciting” does a pick up need to be? It’s a damn pick up. 

Here : it's boring compared to the other 'unexciting' pickups.

Look, it's sedans that are unexciting. Cramped, limited capabilities, no advantages over trucks other than parking ability in tight lots.
Damned pick-ups are overtaking the industry, obviously consumers frequently find them exciting.

Imagine 2 sedans; one has more power, more cargo & load capacity, towing ability if you need it, the same level of finish & amenities, more levels of individualizing, better crash protection, better vision, stronger built, better resale.... some difference in pricing (but less so than comparing a average sedan to an average EV sedan).... so far which one has you more interested?

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24 minutes ago, balthazar said:

No; we agreed : 'coma sales are not poor- they lead the segment. That's inarguable.

As far as being 'healthy & reliable' - the recalls not only are frequent to the point of sheer annoyance, too many are of a serious nature spilling over into 'unprecedented' territory. The reputation has not yet been tempered by recent reality, but that's a common occurrence.

My point was not to at all imply the Chevrolet's were better, as much as it was to point out that the toyoters AREN"T. That's the picture that needs adjustment.

You misread what I said when I mentioned “disagreed”. You also know, as well I do, that recalls do not mean a car or truck is unreliable. Now, specific mechanical or powertrain failures or issues are one thing but thats not what is going on with the Tacoma. 

 

Your point is still flawed in that even when the average Toyota “isn’t”, it is still more reliable than most of the competition. The average buyer is loyal but not so loyal that they will continue to buy a product if its a pile of &#036;h&#33;.

 

Just saying, I get that you don’t like Toyota but lets keep this grounded in reality, since the rest of this thread clearly went off into a black hole of historical nonsense.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Here : it's boring compared to the other 'unexciting' pickups.

Look, it's sedans that are unexciting. Cramped, limited capabilities, no advantages over trucks other than parking ability in tight lots.
Damned pick-ups are overtaking the industry, obviously consumers frequently find them exciting.

Imagine 2 sedans; one has more power, more cargo & load capacity, towing ability if you need it, the same level of finish & amenities, more levels of individualizing, better crash protection, better vision, stronger built, better resale.... some difference in pricing (but less so than comparing a average sedan to an average EV sedan).... so far which one has you more interested?

Fair point but my point is that most trucks are being sold on “sizzle” Instead of function, something the Tundra does not excel at since it hasn’t changed in eons. Now having said that, lets look at some those factors, starting with resale. According to KBB, the Tundra is tops there.

https://www.kten.com/story/41657657/5-used-trucks-with-the-highest-resale-value

 

Reliability? You can’t even begging to say that the Tundra isn’t reliable.

 

As yes, it lags in power because it only offers two engine choices, which is dumb on Toyotas part. However, that 5.7L has more HP than the 5.3L which is a selling point for some buyers. 

 

The point is, that its not as bad as you think. Yes, it is dated, inside I and out. Yes, it needs more engine choices. However, it is still just a pick up truck, the same as the rest and would perform 100% of the time for 99% of the pick up buyers out there that don’t need a heavy duty truck. As this point though, Toyota either needs to get serious about the Tundra (if it wants it to survive) or just pull the plug and focus solely on the Tacoma. Just my two cents.

 

Since you brought up recalls earlier though, here’s a comparison for you. 2020 Tundra vs 2020 F-150. Does it still matter?

 

E345EE23-B1CF-40E3-9A6E-FA0A13CBE1EA.png

6307F983-6D52-493B-BD9E-983CA70C2863.png

Edited by surreal1272
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31 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

As yes, it lags in power because it only offers two engine choices, which is dumb on Toyotas part. However, that 5.7L has more HP than the 5.3L which is a selling point for some buyers

There's actually only one engine available. There's no V6. 

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"Unreliable" is an variably-defined term.

If the OEM is sending me a letter once a month, telling me I need to repeatedly bring/leave my truck at the dealer for -let's call it- "attention", and it's therefore not waiting in my driveway for me, is it still "reliable"?

- - - - -
A recall for a 'missing paragraph in the owner's manual' is less than nothing and zero reflection on the product itself. So (IMO) are recalls centered around aftermarket hood scoops, lamp assemblies, rims/lug nuts. Tho those parts should be tested/passed by the OEM, I acknowledge a degree of risk on any part not directly under OEM manufacturing supervision. Likewise with dealer-level alterations.

However, I cannot define leaking rears, loss of brakes, broken valve springs, cracking driveshafts, cracking bodywork, seat heater fires, window switch fires, separating ball joints, unintended cruise acceleration, failure of air bags to deploy, broken leaf springs puncturing the fuel tank, etc etc etc as the vehicle still being 'reliable'.

IMO, "reliable" encompasses [actual reliability of operating condition, breakage of components, and the number/severity of recalls / TSBs] that put my vehicle out of service. There is also a 'comfortable degree of confidence' that's an amorphous component of consumer satisfaction.

- - - - -
I only remember 2 recall notices for my 2500HD in the 16 years I've had it; one for the center rear child seat anchor (not applicable to me + my rear seat is totally removed), and the instrument cluster glitch. A SINGLE OCCURRENCE ONLY: I pulled out of a convenience store lot and all gauges went to 0. I shut the truck off & coasted to the side, immediately thinking of oil pressure. Thought about it a moment, decided it was an instrument thing, started the truck & all was fine. That was about 8 years back - never happened again. To me, that's still 100% 'reliability' because there was no operational detriment and no downtime for service.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

There's actually only one engine available. There's no V6. 

You are correct on the V6 but they were offering the 4.6L on the entry level until very recently apparently. They haven’t offered the V6 in years. 

47 minutes ago, balthazar said:

"Unreliable" is an variably-defined term.

If the OEM is sending me a letter once a month, telling me I need to repeatedly bring/leave my truck at the dealer for -let's call it- "attention", and it's therefore not waiting in my driveway for me, is it still "reliable"?

- - - - -
A recall for a 'missing paragraph in the owner's manual' is less than nothing and zero reflection on the product itself. So (IMO) are recalls centered around aftermarket hood scoops, lamp assemblies, rims/lug nuts. Tho those parts should be tested/passed by the OEM, I acknowledge a degree of risk on any part not directly under OEM manufacturing supervision. Likewise with dealer-level alterations.

However, I cannot define leaking rears, loss of brakes, broken valve springs, cracking driveshafts, cracking bodywork, seat heater fires, window switch fires, separating ball joints, unintended cruise acceleration, failure of air bags to deploy, broken leaf springs puncturing the fuel tank, etc etc etc as the vehicle still being 'reliable'.

IMO, "reliable" encompasses [actual reliability of operating condition, breakage of components, and the number/severity of recalls / TSBs] that put my vehicle out of service. There is also a 'comfortable degree of confidence' that's an amorphous component of consumer satisfaction.

- - - - -
I only remember 2 recall notices for my 2500HD in the 16 years I've had it; one for the center rear child seat anchor (not applicable to me + my rear seat is totally removed), and the instrument cluster glitch. A SINGLE OCCURRENCE ONLY: I pulled out of a convenience store lot and all gauges went to 0. I shut the truck off & coasted to the side, immediately thinking of oil pressure. Thought about it a moment, decided it was an instrument thing, started the truck & all was fine. That was about 8 years back - never happened again. To me, that's still 100% 'reliability' because there was no operational detriment and no downtime for service.

For YOUR truck. Doesn’t mean there weren’t others depending on the VIN. Still doesn’t change what I have said and I stand by it. Overall, both Toyota’s are reliable, end of story. Your one off anecdotal story about your one truck doesn’t change that. 

Edited by surreal1272
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It something isn't breaking down on me and whatever the repair is covered while I have a loaner vehicle, it's reliable in my book. 

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• I wasn't comparing my truck to toyoters, just giving an example of my definition of reliable.

• Loaner trucks don't happen to work for me- I work out of my truck; all my tools are in there. Not only can't I work, I also have to offload most of my tools for peace-of-mind reasons/security when at the dealer, then reload when it comes back. That s huge inconvenience. Plus, my truck is 150K miles out of warranty, so something breaks it's not covered. I've only had it in for service maybe a half dozen times tho (maintenance work I do myself).

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Every Truck can break down, some just do it in splendid fashion more than others.

image.png

Other just make me wonder how the hell did they get tabs for the dangerous auto to be on the road?

image.png

I would for sure NOT buy a used truck from the east coast, midwest or Canada. The amount of salt on the frame makes me nervous of not if but when it will snap.

image.png

image.png

image.png

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11 hours ago, David said:

Every Truck can break down, some just do it in splendid fashion more than others.

Exactly.  Yet every time there is review of Toyota truck, you LOVE posting these old pictures of broken Tacomas.  I live in North East and as I previously mentioned my co-worker had to get rid of his old SIlverado because it was too rusted, he got brand new F-150 and had numerous electrical problems.  My boss had Expedition that he had to get rid of just few weeks ago because it got too rusted to pass inspection and repair was too expensive.

Tundra might be by far not the best truck compared to others but I heard many times from my co-workers who are "truck people" that they are more reliable in general. 

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Posted (edited)

I've never seen a truck with a snapped frame in person.

My '04 SIlverado has lived it's life in NJ, frame has no major scale, nevermind rot. Should turn 200K miles this week. My 80-yr old Ford spent it's life in NJ and it's frame is excellent- no rot or weak spots, but I have no idea how many miles are on it. It worked a good 35 years tho.

A buddy scrapped a Chevy pickup maybe 5 years ago when it was too rotted, but it was a 1990 that spent YEARS plowing & salting every winter.

Edited by balthazar

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I've never seen a Tacoma or Tundra with a snapped frame in person either but they're apparently happening left and right. 

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16 hours ago, David said:

Every Truck can break down, some just do it in splendid fashion more than others.

 

Other just make me wonder how the hell did they get tabs for the dangerous auto to be on the road?

 

Some salty states have annual inspections---like Pennsylvania.  Others, like Ohio, have no inspections.  So lots of rusty chud on the roads here.

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Does Ohio inspect frames annually? I doubt it.

Jersey had annuals, they never checked the frames here. Cat converter in place is it, underneath.
But NJ stopped safety inspections some years ago, except for emissions. (Diesels exempt).
- - - - -
Was just eyeballin a late '80s Chevy pickup sitting at my buddy's shop. Frame has mild surface rust but no heavy rust or rot showing thru either wheelwell.

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1 minute ago, balthazar said:

Does Ohio inspect frames annually? I doubt it.

Jersey had annuals, they never checked the frames here. Cat converter in place is it, underneath.
But NJ stopped safety inspections some years ago, except for emissions. (Diesels exempt).
- - - - -
Was just eyeballin a late '80s Chevy pickup sitting at my buddy's shop. Frame has mild surface rust but no heavy rust or rot showing thru either wheelwell.

No, nothing like that...only emissions tests every two years for vehicles going back to '96..and mostly just a check of the codes, gas cap test.   As I said, a lot of rusty stuff still on the roads around here..I remember 40 years ago as a kid Ohio having safety inspections, but that's long gone..

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Does Ohio inspect frames annually? I doubt it.

Jersey had annuals, they never checked the frames here. Cat converter in place is it, underneath.
But NJ stopped safety inspections some years ago, except for emissions. (Diesels exempt).
 

NJ's inspection is a joke now.  Used to be much better.

But I work in PA and it seems the inspection here is pretty strict.  It seems among other things they check for rust extensively.

Edited by ykX
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Jersey used to sometimes flag you for significant body panel rust, but they never checked structural.

ykX - when did NJ stop everything but emissions - was it during the recession ‘08-09?

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44 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Jersey used to sometimes flag you for significant body panel rust, but they never checked structural.

ykX - when did NJ stop everything but emissions - was it during the recession ‘08-09?

Something around that time I believe.  My first car I owned in NJ in the early 2000s, I remember I got rejected for having bad shocks, even though I didn't feel any issues.  They used to check shocks, brakes and other main things, not sure how much they were checking for rust.  I bought new car in 2006 which had few years until the first inspection and I think they already were checking only emissions.

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Posted (edited)

I remember Ohio back in the late 70s-early 80s having State Police checkpoints set up randomly where they would flag people over to the side of the road and check their tires, lights, wipers, etc. Had 'Inspection Stations' signs IIRC... I wonder if any states do stuff like that anymore.  I remember my goofy older brother complaining about them because he drove '60s-70s rust buckets then that always had something wrong..

Edited by Robert Hall

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5 hours ago, ykX said:

But I work in PA and it seems the inspection here is pretty strict.  It seems among other things they check for rust extensively.

Just like everywhere else though... if you "know" somebody, you can get a sticker on an absolute hoopty.

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On 7/22/2020 at 1:19 PM, ocnblu said:

LOL 14 MPG average?  NOPE.

Plus it continues to irk me when I see US flags and other patriotic stickers on foreign vehicles.  Should be a white field with a red dot, not our dear old Stars & Stripes on there.

Agree with you there. 

On 7/27/2020 at 8:43 AM, ykX said:

I like the simplicity.  Definitely will take it over this mess of the front end

2020-chevrolet-silverado-1500-3-0-liter-

I do like the looks of the RAM the most though

Black1.jpg?resize=768,520&ssl=1

Chevy is better looking in person. Ram is unreliable, better to look at the underside or motor bay, as that is what you will see the most of. 

On 7/24/2020 at 6:32 PM, ocnblu said:

Shoot, current generation Tundra bed floors rust out above the floor crossmembers... where the beds are bolted to the frame.  I've seen many of them that way here in SE PA. 

No reason to buy a Tundra. 

On 7/27/2020 at 9:02 AM, surreal1272 said:

Not disagreeing with your post but that was not reason for my reply to riviera. They made the statement that Tacoma sales were garbage like the Tundras when they are not, so much so that they sold double the number of Colorado’s last year despite the Colorado being the overall better truck. Brand loyalty 101, much like the F-150 and Silverado outselling RAM even when RAM has had the better truck at times. 
 

And sorry Balth, but I’m more than happy to show the sheer pile of twenty year old S-10s and first gen Colorado’s that turned to pure &#036;h&#33; since you seem to think that only the Tacoma should face that level of criticisms. Like them or not, they have earned their reputation for being solid trucks with a pretty healthy record in the reliability department. Their high resale values over the years back this up. 

I actually really like the Tacoma, would consider buying one. Yes, S-10 and Colorados ahve gone south here in Ohio, but 97-2006 Wranglers and Rams seem to be the majro candidates here for actual frame rot. 

On 7/24/2020 at 6:35 PM, David said:

This is an interesting site. Toyota Tundra has a total of 51 recalls from the last 20 years of it's production. Not too bad. There are 7 issues under investigation with 2004 model year having 5 issues under investigation for brakes, suspension issues, airbags and seatbelts. 

The final big thing is the TSBs, 788 in total with the 2014 Model year having the most at 282 TSBs.

http://www.toyotaproblems.com/models/tundra/recalls/

Worst year is 2010, Major electrical problems, engine and transmission problems along with wheel and frame issue for not supporting stated loads.

This I do find very interesting, all the open cases that Toyota has yet to resolve around the following issues:

See through rusted out frame assemblies, melting dashboards, Engine Sludge, Soy wire coating that rodents love to chew, oil consumption lawsuit, and so much more.

http://www.toyotaproblems.com/problems/

Tundra is Baby Boomer tech, but clearly has a sludge of problems which really makes one question the reliability of the product.

In regards to the service men and woman who buy Asian or European name plated auto's. Yes you have given to your country, yes democracy allows you to pick your product you want to spend your own hard earned coin on.

The question to be asked is how do you changed American companies to build better products if you will not support them and give them the feedback to improve their products?

On top of this, if your going to go around and preach about supporting your own country, how does that work when your money goes out in profits to other country based companies supporting another country over your own?

Just saying, do you support your own US based Companies that pay taxes into the US Government and supports these companies or do you let it go over seas and support a foreign country?

Food for thought!

Good thought. 

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On 7/24/2020 at 6:36 PM, ocnblu said:

485FE1F5-6646-4F51-B672-40C18E6B9ED5.jpg

images.jpg

20171230_115155.jpg

Hell this could be a two year old truck in  Ohio....I have seen Chevy, Ford, Ram,  Tacoma, Tundra, Ridgeline, Nissan Frontier all rust like this. I think the trucks are feeling sympathy for the ships sunk at Midway, and turning to rust in an act of self sacrifce to show respect for those brave machines that fought in 1942. 

On 7/24/2020 at 10:02 PM, oldshurst442 said:

It seems to me that you are making excuses for yourself to feel better about it...

BTW...GM's problems were 20 years and OLDER too...

Yet...for some reason, you only hold GM accountable...  

Like I said. I dont care what you buy. Your pocket, not mine.  Just stop with the bullshyte excuses.  

And I never said fOreIGn trUCk BaD 

I said...its STUPID to think and give pride to FOREIGN owned products made in America any value...and to blast American owned product for problems they had and to IGNORE foreign owned product problems...

You got a problem with American companies building their products elsewhere BUT the USA....talk to Wallstreet about that...

Change your POLITICAL environment, change YOUR OWN mindset and not ONLY be ready to pay  a lot more money for your American owned American built products, but thinking you have NO CHOICE BUT to pay a lot more  for your American owned American built products TO TRULY SUPPORT YOUR FELLOW AMERICAN.

AMERICAN WORKERS AND SERVICE PEOPLE DESERVE A LOT MORE MONEY THAN THEY ARE PAID NOW...

You see...

THAT IS AN EMPTY PHOQUING ARGUMENT...   YOU WANT TO BE A GOOD AMERICAN...THEN FORCE YOUR POLITICIANS AND YOUR COUNTRYMEN TO ACCEPT THAT CONSUMER GOODS BUILT IN AMERICA WILL BE MORE EXPENSIVE DUE TO THE FACT THAT AMERICAN WORKERS DESERVE A BETTER PAY, BUT FACTORIES WILL BE RETURNING BACK TO THE USA...AND AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL HAVE JOBS TO PAY FOR AMERICAN BUILT PRODUCTS...

LIKE USUAL....FOLK LIKE YOU ALWAYS BARK UP THE WRONG TREE. BELIEVE IN SOME WEIRD PHOQUING LIE, AND STUPIDLY LIVE BY A CODE THAT ONLY DOES YOU HARM...

ANOTHER EXAMPLE:   THE FREEDOM OF NOT WEARING A MASK DURING A PHOQUING PANDEMIC...

WAVE FLAGGING, FREEDOM CRYING NONSENSE...

But yeah...buy your trouble free Toyoter to your heart's content...  Like I said...I dont give a shyte.  Your life. Not mine.  Your money, not mine.  Just STOP with the bullshyte arguments...

 

 

Says the man who bought an acura, a Japanese car built in America. 

On 7/25/2020 at 10:30 AM, surreal1272 said:

Tundra sales are garbage and always have been. The Tacoma, however, continues to outsell the domestics. Not sure where you got the notion that Tacoma sales are bad. 

And good grief! What the hell happened on this thread? Sounds like a few folks need a bed and med check. 

What's new with C and G? It's been that way since I joined in 2007. Every few months guys with white jackets come in and haul people off in Vintage Studebaker pick up trucks, supposedly taking them to vehicular valhalla.  I think Balthazars posting up vintage pics is a futile attempt to pacify and placate these evil goblins of the automotive dark world. 

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On 7/25/2020 at 1:08 PM, balthazar said:

in 2019, the 'coma outsold the GM mid-size pickups by about 93K units.
It's like the.... corolla of the mid-size truck segment. Doesn't seem to matter how mediocre it is (49 recalls, with a couple years earning a recall about every 3.5 weeks), it keeps finding buyers.

It's actually a good truck but getting dated. I would consider one. But I think (and yes I have changed my mind, don't faint, please!) the Ranger is the peach of the crop.  

On 7/25/2020 at 8:25 PM, ykX said:

Profits go to CEOs and shareholders while actual jobs for average people are going to Mexico, China and Canada.  I would rather give my money to the company that gives jobs to American workers than to the bean counters and upper management.

I don't own a Toyota and unlikely will, but my wife drives MDX that was designed and build in US.  And I would rather give money to Honda that provides thousands of jobs in Ohio and Alabama, than to GM that outsorces more than 50% of the product to foreign countries.

Unlike most people on this forum I work in manufacturing.  I happen to work for an American company but I have seen many American companies outsorce manufacturing overseas.  I have sern thousands of people loose jobs because of that, while the tip brass sits here getting richer.  So excuse if I care more about American jobs than CEOs and shareholders.

Don't faint, going to give props to Ford, they employ more Americans in America thatn anyone IIRC. 

On 7/25/2020 at 9:11 PM, balthazar said:

Why are 'shareholders' lumped in with 'CEOs'?
Is the assumption here that shareholders are all millionaires lounging on their yachts? Instead of millions of everyday people with pensions & 401Ks, hoping to be able to retire before age 85?

 


honda & toyota's profits also go to CEOs, upper management & shareholders (tho that last one- not in the U.S.).

Ford built nearly 2,000,000 vehicles in the US in 2019, honda built 1.2 million. Ford employs 85,000 in the U.S., honda employs 31,000.
Between these 2 examples, it is Ford who is giving jobs to American workers, not Honda. And that number used to be much higher, but once you slice a pizza into 80 slices, everyone gets less pizza.

 

BTW, honda also has 2 plants in Mexico, one just opened in 2014. That would be, quite arguably, 'taking jobs away from American workers', no?

See my remark about Ford above. 

On 7/25/2020 at 10:12 PM, balthazar said:

• "stupid decisions" :: Sure- look at so many of toyoter's corporate decisions.

• Most people don't buy equities out-of-pocket; their 401Ks are invested in them without their direct input. That's 100 million people, which is a LOT of John & Jane Q Publics.
 


Obviously with vendor outsourcing and increased robotics, numbers will change. But GM used to employ 600,000. I'm not aware the cumulative investment in the U.S. there has ever been attempted to be calculated.

In all fairness to GM look at how many Robots are not used to build vehicles. 

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On 7/26/2020 at 12:18 AM, oldshurst442 said:

But dont forget though, after WW2, the US was the ONLY one left standing with factories still standing and running and producing all kinds of stuff that the world consumed.  

Its like Ford, GM, Coca-Cola etc...benefited from all the one-sidedness and that spilled over to the American  people?    I guess that is the price we paid for with our  Rock-N-Roll and milkshakes and chrome and drive-in movie theatres in the 1950s and 1960s I guess...

Truth

On 7/26/2020 at 12:18 AM, oldshurst442 said:

I may need a bed with my meds...but there is a reason I write my posts the way I do...

A broken clock is right twice a day....

On 7/26/2020 at 2:26 PM, balthazar said:

Pretty boring and very 2010.

Should blend in well with the average parking lot full of uninspired vehicles here in the USA. Reason, or one of the reasons, I don't post much here any more. 

On 7/26/2020 at 12:18 AM, oldshurst442 said:

Maybe the US is too damned generous with their openness with foreign factories in their homeland?

No doubt about this at all. Not a fan at all of Trump, but at least he tried to take care of American workers. He did feel a bit of responsibility to the folks in Michigan who elected him. We now return you to your ranting and spiteful Stang/Horse/Horse's ass....

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On 7/26/2020 at 1:09 AM, oldshurst442 said:

  Im saying...that GM owned Opel when Hitler was voted in power. Hitler became a dictator and undoubtedly had many many "business" meetings with GM brass (Opel or Detroit brass)  about  cars...and about the upcoming war effort...

Italeri Kfz. 305 Opel Blitz in 1:35 (#216) Afrika Korps | iModeler

Sensitive ties to Hitler...   

And NOBODY could deny that. Well, one could deny it...

 

By this logic I shouldn't do business with any German company....time to get rid of my festool woodworking tools, and other quality German items. 

On 7/27/2020 at 9:08 AM, surreal1272 said:

How “exciting” does a pick up need to be? It’s a damn pick up. 

Actually I really like Pick up trucks, thank you very much. 

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