Strongest GM Brands

[Bimmer325]

Inspired by a statement made by Josh late yesterday regarding the use of portholes (a Buick trademark) on the '07 Cadillac Escalade:

To me it means Buick is set for doomsday. However we won't ruin this choppers thread. Lets take it else where if we chose to discuss.

Original Thread

My question, is which GM brand you think is strongest aside from Cadillac and Chevrolet. I've excluded GM's "bookend" brands because they're clearly going nowhere. Brands composed only of trucks (GMC and HUMMER) have also been left out.

Be sure to consider the strength of the brand's current and near-future lineups (what's in the pipeline?), along with the brand's position in relation to other GM brands (too much overlap with another division?). Each has several pros and cons to be discussed, so let's get started!

[Cory Wolfe]

Jeez... I can see this turning into a Pontiac or Buick bashing thread... <_< Saturn gets my vote, but that's only because of what's 'supposed' to be coming as I love Opel. Otherwise, Saturn is currently the weakest along with Saab. It's hard to decide which is stronger between Buick and Pontiac. They both seem to have sketchy futures. I'd have to say Pontiac is only because of Buick's average buyer. No offense, but after most of them pass away, who is really going to buy them? The next generation of older citizens are already hooked on Imports, for the most part.

[z28luvr01]

Saturn, hands down. We've seen the Aura, Sky, Ion, parts of the Outlook, and the Opel Antara which will be the next Vue. All of those products are home runs. Pontiac I would say is next...if only for the GTO and the Solstice. They'll also be shedding the SV6 and the Equinox/Torrent is supposed to get an engine upgrade soon. The GP should do OK for another couple of years as long as there are incremental improvements along the way. The G6 is a new dashboard away from being a fabulous car. last place on my list is a tossup betwen Buick and Saab. Both lineups have vehicles that are all right along with vehicles that need major help. Both could serously use an infusion of RWD cars....namely a Zeta Buick sedan, Velite coupe/conv, a Zeta 9-5 replacement, and a Kappa Sonnet. Wishful thinking I know, but you get my drift.

[NOS2006]

Saturn. While Pontiac gets a lot of G6, Grand Am, and Grand Prix sales, it is more of a mass-produced brand than Saturn. The future of Saturn is very promising considering the vehicles they're to produce in the next 4 years... Redesigned ION, Sky, Outlook, Aura... And they're only going to get better.

[razoredge]

Well I dont know Kids, who had the highest sales last year ? therein lies the answer ! Somehow I doubt it was the American Yugo

[Cory Wolfe]

Well I dont know Kids, who had the highest sales last year ? therein lies the answer!

Pontiac, of course... You didn't vote for it, though. :P

[Member55]

Buick gets my vote. It's making more money than Pontiac, SAAB, Saturn combined.

[bobo]

Pontiac, though it has a huge amount of baggage and suffers from neglect. Saturn, though, has the most potential, and not coincidentally, is getting the most attention.

[wildcat]

For me, Buick, 'cause it's going to be the one I purchase.

P.S. - Please stop these topics that pit one GM make against each other. GM has positioned Buick and Pontiac and GMC together, each helping and complementing the other. They are now linked as virtually one make, so try to be encouraging to each!

Instead, why not run a poll of which GM executive :o needs to be canned? My vote will be for whoever most let Buick and Pontiac get in this position.

[Guest Josh]

I really think the Solstice will do LOTS for Pontiac. More than people seem to think. Remember, this is Lutz' baby. Will he really want his name attatched to a vehicle that will die in 5 years due to poor product decisions? Not hardly.

[wildcat]

This topic was formerly in the C&G Lounge, now it's moved to the General Motors News :huh: section? Hardly deserving to be thought of as news. What good can come of it, other than making one GM brand look bad compared to another?

[Satty]

Chevy, no matter what Chevrolet will never be killed. Of the 4 choices presented, Saturn is the only one with any real products in the pipeline, so they win by default.

[Guest Josh]

Just wanted to put a poll up for the evening/early morning hours and in the lounge registration is required.

[wildcat]

Josh: So? I stand by my comments. It's not news and, as has been the case too much here, yet again pits one GM brand against another. Poor move, IMHO.

[Sixty8panther]

Voted Buick after sitting there for lilke 45 sec. thinking about it. Pontiac is a very close runner up but Buick s worldwide presance and fame in China gives it and edge.

[Guest Josh]

Josh: So?  I stand by my comments.  It's not news and, as has been the case too much here, yet again pits one GM brand against another.  Poor move, IMHO.

[post="28020"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I can move it/remove it if people would like. It's just a chance to vote on what you feel is the strongest brand and nothing more.

Not out to make any brand look bad. Hell we could have the samething in 4 months and Buick could trounce the rest of the brands.

[Cadillacfan]

Although I like Pontiac, Saturn clearly is headed in the right direction by offering a full model line to compete against VW. Pontiac, on the other hand has good products. Unfortunately, some are outdated and others are just rebadges of chevys.(I'm looking at you Torrent and Montana SV6) GM has stated that Pontiac will be trimming down significantly but I don't think we'll see that happening for a while. Some dealers rely soley on Pontiac and not GMC and Buick. GM has to fix the dealer issue before it can focus the brands and make them smaller.

[bobo]

Saturn has the most compelling products coming, but they will come at a price, and will the public accept them for their price points? GM will need to have a major, convincing marketing effort coming, and these new vehicles may just cannibalize the other divisions. It's anything but a sure thing.

[Teh Ricer Civic!]

Saturn. greatest potential Edited October 13, 2005 by Teh Ricer Civic!

[razoredge]

I agree whole heartedly with Wildcat, these posts are just trouble makers and but another wrong turn.

Pontiac has the most promising line up right now.

saturin has nothing, what? two potential cars, one is a Pontiac rebadge and the other is a RWD Aurora/Audi 6 years behind the fact ? Toot ! toot ! saturin is still not making any money

Pontiac and Buick are the only ones selling volumn and have been selling volumn. Yes BOP was the meal ticket for these morfidite leaches that have sucked the developement dollars out of GM.

Dumb thread, highly suspect of the motive behind posting it.

Like I said the answers lie in the sales volumn, not opinion

[Satty]

I agree that this really is just a "Which of these GM brands do you like most (or dislike the least)?" thread that will not end well.

[buyacargetacheck]

I voted before reading the criteria. I based my answer on which brand has the most coherent image. So, I chose Buick. Just about anyone you ask will say Buick is an old persons car or they'll say it's elegant and comfortable depending on the age of the respondent. I'm not sure enough people know what a Saab is. Saturn used to be well-known for entry-level cars. Now, there's not much of any image (yet). Pontiac limped along for a long time on the back of the Trans Am (We Build Excitement) which everyone remembered from the movies and TV. The average joe probably doesn't think much of anything (rightly or wrongly) about Pontiac. Maybe that will change soon. Buick has the most solid image (even if the ad guys aren't thrilled with it).

[The O.C.]

That's a tough one.... I think fundamentally, they should ALL go away...... BUT I voted for Pontiac to be the strongest....not because it's strongest now, but because I think GM has a better shot of revitalizing the performance image Pontiac used to hold....and that could bod well for them in the future. Buick's image has been squandered too much to recapture that "Doctor's Car" aura. AND, trying to recast Buicks as "Premium American Motorcars" is rubbish....as there's really nothing "Premium" about them at THIS juncture. They had a good think going when people off-the-cuff referred to them as the "American Jaguar." Even that has been squandered with the recent product and styling decisions that Buick is living with. SAAB.....considering what Ford has done with Volvo in recent years, Saab is an embarrassment....for GM and for SAAB itself. No further discussion necessary. Saturn might have great cars coming (AURA, SKY) but they will never live up to their ultimate potential (or even their past) now that GM has taken every sliver of individuality out of this once-innovative "concept."

[intrigued]

I voted for Saturn and while I like pontiac much more ill give my brand by brand breakdown. Sabb- Weakest, only decent vehicle is the 9-3, 9-2 is cheap rebadge of the WRX, 9-5 is ancient and the 9-7 while nice is one of a half doezen GMT 360s. Future, new 9-3 still years away with a future 9-5 replacment up in the air as to if it will actually get AWD with Subaru's loss, also the 9-6 has been cancelled because of this, overall a very uncertain future product line. Buick- Though quiet attractive the lacrosse and Lucerence are both on old chasis mated with either uncompetitve engine (3800) or engines that are mated to old 4 speed autos. Also the 4.6 northstar in the Lucerene only makes 275 horse where the new Avalon makes almost as much even after the new ratings, and the 3.6 lost a bunch of hp and a ton of tourque making the transition to FWD. These cars could be made great if the new base engine on the Lacrosse was the 3900, with a more powerful 3.6 making at last 250 horse 240 ftlbs, both being hooked up to a 6 speed auto. The Lucrene would have the same 3.6 for the base and a 300 hp northstar with a 6 speed. Buick has a kickass lambda coming and hopefully another car or two, I consider buick and pontiac to be tied in this race. Buick has too few models even for a line that is not a full car line and pontiac doesnt have any clear cut mission or styling. Pontiac has Grand prix that could use a new interior and a 6 speed auto but otherwise is pretty good. The G6 needs to get the 6 speed also with more manual options, the 3.5 should be replaced with the 3.5 vvt. Better interior materials, the ergonomics and design are great but the dash materials and some other prats are crap. Solstice is pontiacs future Torrent could use better power train and some more options to distinguish it from the nox but should be a volume helper. Minivan should be dropped. If Pontiac gets the new GTO, G8, based off of zeta and a kappa based 3 series fighter we may have a hige turn around, so long as Pontiac keeps its new products fresh. he Reason I voted for saturn despite it being my least favorite of the 4 is that it has the best product in the pipline. The Aura, sky and new Ion are all amazingly desigined with fantastic interiors, good drivetrains and a common design theme and direction that unifys the saturn brand. The outlook is coming as well as a new Vue and at least one or two other vehicles. Saturn might not be much now but give it a few years and it will be.

[91z4me]

I didn't read all the posts but I put Buick for no other reason than volume. Buick moves WAY more cars that Saturn and I am pretty sure it moves more than Pontiac by a good margin too. Also Buick has THE highest customer loyalty in the industry. That counts for something.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

I think fundamentally, they should ALL go away......

:omfg: UMM okay??? What's th logic in that?!?!?!

(Unless of course, you want to see the asians take over)

[PONTIACGXP]

I voted Pontiac because the Solstice is the front runner for car of the year so this means that GM cant ignore Pontiac anymore so look for alot of new cars and changes in the near future.

[Satty]

:omfg: UMM okay??? What's th logic in that?!?!?!

(Unless of course, you want to see the asians take over)

[post="28292"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Name an Asian company that has 7 brands in the US. Toyota has 3, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai each have 2. GM alone has almost as many nameplates as Japan and Korea combined. I think paring GM down, one way or another would help the company be more efficient and in a better position to fight the imports.

*Edit: So I forgot Mitsu, Suzuki and Subie, they're insignificant anyways. Edited October 13, 2005 by Satty

[Croc]

I agree that this really is just a "Which of these GM brands do you like most (or dislike the least)?" thread that will not end well.

[post="28114"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That's the only rational reason Pontiac is beating Buick in this poll...

[ehaase]

Instead, why not run a poll of which GM executive :o  needs to be canned?  My vote will be for whoever most let Buick and Pontiac get in this position.

Perhaps you could blame the GM Board of Directors. My (probably incorrect) understanding is that the GM Board of Directors is to blame for keeping the old A body Century and Ciera in production for so long. Those cars hurt Buick's (and Oldsmobile's) upscale image and prevented the original W body Regal and Cutlass Supreme from succeeding. Mid-sized cars were much of the cause of GM's success in the 1970's and early to mid 1980's. But now Toyota, Honda, and Nissan dominate the mid-sized market.

Perhaps the executives who decided to make the original W bodies available only as coupes, while sedans were becoming more popular, deserve some blame, helping the Taurus to become such a good seller.

Maybe Jack Smith (I think) was to blame for delaying the redesign of the W bodies from 1993 to 1997 and 1998. These were the years that the Camry became such a strong seller.

Perhaps whoever developed the junk V8 diesel engines in the late 1970's deserves some blame.

Perhaps you could also blame politicians (at the federal, state, and local levels) who have given such generous incentives for the Asians to build plants in the U.S., contributing to the overcapacity problem we have in the U.S.

But most of the GM executives at fault for the current condition for Buick and Pontiac are retired or dead. Edited October 13, 2005 by ehaase

[evok]

Perhaps you could blame the GM Board of Directors.  My (probably incorrect) understanding is that the GM Board of Directors is to blame for keeping the old A body Century and Ciera in production for so long.  Those cars hurt Buick's (and Oldsmobile's) upscale image and prevented the original W body Regal and Cutlass Supreme from succeeding.  Mid-sized cars were much of the cause of GM's success in the 1970's and early to mid 1980's.  But now Toyota, Honda, and Nissan dominate the mid-sized market.

Perhaps the executives who decided to make the original W bodies available only as coupes, while sedans were becoming more popular, deserve some blame, helping the Taurus to become such a good seller.

Maybe Jack Smith (I think) was to blame for delaying the redesign of the W bodies from 1993 to 1997 and 1998.  These were the years that the Camry became such a strong seller.

Perhaps whoever developed the junk V8 diesel engines in the late 1970's deserves some blame.

Perhaps you could also blame politicians (at the federal, state, and local levels) who have given such generous incentives for the Asians to build plants in the U.S., contributing to the overcapacity problem we have in the U.S.

But most of the GM executives at fault for the current condition for Buick and Pontiac are retired or dead.

[post="28380"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Great post.

I would like to add two root causes that IMO forever changed the face of the industry and the companies for many reasons never recovered from. All of which lead to the key points you mentioned.

#1: Ralph Nader
#2: The first oil crisis

All the government regulations and the switch to fwd with new powertrains, unibody switchover caused it all to go to hell. You can't expect this industry to turn on a dime without serious repercussions. Quality and styling suffered as we are well aware. And the Japanese with the right product at the right time just walked it. Remember there was not a market for small cars prior to the oil embargo and there was no need for the Big 3 to product such a car.

[Drew Dowdell]

Aren't you missing a few brands here and there?

I'd say either Cadillac or Chevy are the strongest brands. None of the rest qualify.

Even Olds was stronger at it's death then Saturn is currently and Saab has ever been. It was on an equal footing with Buick and could go either way against Pontiac depending on which year you looked at.

So what you're doing is asking us to pick a strongest brand out of a lineup of 4 brands weaker then a dead brand .

[Cory Wolfe]

I didn't read all the posts but I put Buick for no other reason than volume. Buick moves WAY more cars that Saturn and I am pretty sure it moves more than Pontiac by a good margin too.

Wrong... Pontiac sells more than Buick. It was the 3rd best selling GM brand in 2004.

[bowtie_dude]

Currently, of those, Pontiac has the best lineup, obviously since its the best selling. However, this time next year, that honor will go to Saturn.

[pontiaccrest]

Pontiac will be back!!!!

[turbo200]

Perhaps you could blame the GM Board of Directors.  My (probably incorrect) understanding is that the GM Board of Directors is to blame for keeping the old A body Century and Ciera in production for so long.  Those cars hurt Buick's (and Oldsmobile's) upscale image and prevented the original W body Regal and Cutlass Supreme from succeeding.  Mid-sized cars were much of the cause of GM's success in the 1970's and early to mid 1980's.  But now Toyota, Honda, and Nissan dominate the mid-sized market.

Perhaps the executives who decided to make the original W bodies available only as coupes, while sedans were becoming more popular, deserve some blame, helping the Taurus to become such a good seller.

Maybe Jack Smith (I think) was to blame for delaying the redesign of the W bodies from 1993 to 1997 and 1998.  These were the years that the Camry became such a strong seller.

Perhaps whoever developed the junk V8 diesel engines in the late 1970's deserves some blame.

Perhaps you could also blame politicians (at the federal, state, and local levels) who have given such generous incentives for the Asians to build plants in the U.S., contributing to the overcapacity problem we have in the U.S.

But most of the GM executives at fault for the current condition for Buick and Pontiac are retired or dead.

[post="28380"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

wow, i agree, great post. I would have definitely said the same. In my opinion, no one is to blame more for the mismanagement of these brands than GM execs themselves. Even after the switchover to FWD unibody, they had plenty of time to reverse things in the '90's, instead things just declined.

There are plenty of good reasons posted above to choose Buick and Pontiac. I chose Saturn simply because they have the most product coming and therefore have the most potential and are the "strongest". Of course, Buick and Pontiac both have great product coming (i.e. Solstice and Centieme/Rendevous), but they'll need more in order to survive and become stronger.

About the Cadillac portholes, they're not actually shaped like portholes, as on Buick!!!! Look at the Sixteen, they are shaped like that, and thus this is really making a mountain of a mole, imo. Buick will have circular portholes, Cadillac will have quadrangle vents, easy enough!

[ehaase]

I think Pontiac is the strongest brand (of the four in the poll), although I do think that Saturn sales will double (maybe more than double) over the next few years because of the Aura and Outlook. The G6/Grand Am and Grand Prix have been and continue to be solid sellers for many years, and GM would be foolish to drop or even rename the Grand Prix. The Vibe is also a good seller and appealing small car, and the Solstice and GTO are or will be good niche products. I don't think Pontiac needs crossover vehicles or minivans (transfer those vehicles to GMC), just relatively (but not always excessively) sporty coupes, sedans, and convertibles. Another thing that hurt Pontiac and Buick (and Oldsmobile) was the popularity of SUV's beginning in the early 1990's. Upper middle class buyers who might have considered large Buick and Oldsmobile sedans switched to mid and full size SUV's. (I can remember country club parking lots in the late 1970's and early 1980's being filled with Olds 98's and Custom Cruisers and Buick Electras and Estate Wagons.) It looks like the market for truck based SUV's will contract (probably severely) over the next few years, and surveys I have read indicate that owners of these SUV's will probably shift to foreign brand sedans. Pontiac hit its peak in the late 1960's and was hurt (in my opinion) by (1) John DeLorean being transferred to Chevrolet (he was a very talented executive, although perhaps he thought too highly of himself); (2) government regulations and insurance companies that hurt muscle car sales (destroying the greatest muscle car - the original GTO); and (3) the gas crisis of 1973 and 1974, decimating the sales of the Catalina, Bonneville, and Grand Ville. The introduction of the 1985 Grand Am and later the 1997 Grand Prix really helped Pontiac, and I think it is currently GM's strongest nameplate after Chevrolet, Cadillac, and GMC. What has really hurt Buick and killed Oldsmobile (in the opinion of this non-insider) was GM's mistakes with its mid sized cars from 1985 to 1996 (which I tried to address in an earlier post), essentially turning that much of that market over to the Japanese. Edited October 14, 2005 by ehaase

[hyperv6]

Saturn is running rings around the other divisions as the new American Opel and represents a true world platform for GM. Pontiac is seccond here in the states as they have the most potential here and the new product will show it. On the world stage it's Buick and the potential profit in China can kick all their butts on a world wide basies. The Chineses love their Buicks and there are a lot of them to buy them. Buick is weak here but China alone could save the line. GM is working on a world wide system for their cars and as of yet we have not see a Pontiac out side the States and it scares me!

[Mule Bakersdozen LS]

Perhaps you could blame the GM Board of Directors.  My (probably incorrect) understanding is that the GM Board of Directors is to blame for keeping the old A body Century and Ciera in production for so long.  Those cars hurt Buick's (and Oldsmobile's) upscale image and prevented the original W body Regal and Cutlass Supreme from succeeding.  Mid-sized cars were much of the cause of GM's success in the 1970's and early to mid 1980's.  But now Toyota, Honda, and Nissan dominate the mid-sized market.

Perhaps the executives who decided to make the original W bodies available only as coupes, while sedans were becoming more popular, deserve some blame, helping the Taurus to become such a good seller.

Maybe Jack Smith (I think) was to blame for delaying the redesign of the W bodies from 1993 to 1997 and 1998.  These were the years that the Camry became such a strong seller.

Perhaps whoever developed the junk V8 diesel engines in the late 1970's deserves some blame.

Perhaps you could also blame politicians (at the federal, state, and local levels) who have given such generous incentives for the Asians to build plants in the U.S., contributing to the overcapacity problem we have in the U.S.

But most of the GM executives at fault for the current condition for Buick and Pontiac are retired or dead.

[post="28380"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

It didn't help when most car lines' upper level trims added little more than a richer cloth interior and wider bodyside/rocker panel moldings either, or offered little more standard equipment than a Chevrolet either. Looking at my 1989 Buick Century, while its a pretty good car and virtually trouble-free, I really have to wonder how in the world this design continued into 1996, let alone getting by its 1989 facelift without a major interior redesign. And those full-size fakes, I mean, H-Bodies didn't help things either, nor did the Cavalier/Sunbird or constant updating on most of the cars. I think and hope large or mid-size truck-based SUV's are more suited as work trucks, same for compact, mid-size, and large pickups-that's how they started, and that's how it should be, IMO. Great posts ehaase.

[The O.C.]

:omfg: UMM okay??? What's th logic in that?!?!?!

(Unless of course, you want to see the asians take over)

[post="28292"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

"Fundamentally."

Of course, none of us wants to see the historic brands of Buick and Pontiac follow Oldsmobile down the proverbial shitter....

BUT my point was the fact that GM still makes too many models for too many divisions to support their realistic position in the marketplace.

I think it was Evok that originally said (or was it Delorenzo..?) that a healthy, vibrant, and downsized GM at around 19-20% marketshare is FAR better than a struggling and lethargic leviathan at 25-29%.....

[Sixty8panther]

Great post.

I would like to add two root causes that IMO forever changed the face of the industry and the companies for many reasons never recovered from.  All of which lead to the key points you mentioned.

#1: Ralph Nader
#2: The first oil crisis

All the government regulations and the switch to fwd with new powertrains, unibody switchover caused it all to go to hell.  You can't expect this industry to turn on a dime without serious repercussions.  Quality and styling suffered as we are well aware.  And the Japanese with the right product at the right time just walked it.  Remember there was not a market for small cars prior to the oil embargo and there was no need for the Big 3 to product such a car.

[post="28386"][/post]

That's it right there in a nutshell. 100% on the money.

[Cory Wolfe]

All the government regulations and the switch to fwd with new powertrains, unibody switchover caused it all to go to hell.

Uhh... No. :rolleyes:

[evok]

"Fundamentally."

Of course, none of us wants to see the historic brands of Buick and Pontiac follow Oldsmobile down the proverbial shitter....

BUT my point was the fact that GM still makes too many models for too many divisions to support their realistic position in the marketplace.

I think it was Evok that originally said (or was it Delorenzo..?) that a healthy, vibrant, and downsized GM at around 19-20% marketshare is FAR better than a struggling and lethargic leviathan at 25-29%.....

[post="28880"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

De Lorenzo

[evok]

All the government regulations and the switch to fwd with new powertrains, unibody switchover caused it all to go to hell.
Uhh... No. :rolleyes:

[post="28896"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Both of you. That was not my point and you know it! :P

[Viperfan07]

Well idk its a toss up between Saturn and Buick. But IMO Saturn is the strongest with the upcoming products. Unfortunately, Saab is the weakest. I love Saab and I believe they have potential. I think Saab needs a coupe (and a supercharged variant), a more luxurious flagship sedan, and kill the SUV (theres enough of them on the road).

[Drew Dowdell]

I'd like to point out the vaugeness of this question. Being a strong brand does not always equal having the most sales. Cadillac is one of the strongest brands at the moment even though Pontiac probably out sells it. In a matter of 3 years Cadillac has changed it's image into one of badass, in your face luxury and sport. What is pontiac's image right now? Driving excitement? With that lineup? I don't think so. To back up my arguement, which brand is stronger? Porche or Volkswagon? Mazda or Ford? Hummer or Mitsubishi? The point here is, the first collumn in my list is a strong brand, yet the second collumn is a weak brand that sells a hell of a lot more vehicle then the first collumn.

[lakefire]

YOu should have refrased this poll to say: Excluding all of GM's Strong brands, which is the strongest of the weak.

[JazzyChef]

I agree whole heartedly with Wildcat, these posts are just trouble makers and but another wrong turn.

Pontiac has the most promising line up right now.

saturin has nothing, what? two potential cars, one is a Pontiac rebadge and the other is a RWD Aurora/Audi 6 years behind the fact ? Toot ! toot ! saturin is still not making any money

Pontiac and Buick are the only ones selling volumn and have been selling volumn. Yes BOP was the meal ticket for these morfidite leaches that have sucked the developement dollars out of GM.

Dumb thread, highly suspect of the motive behind posting it.

Like I said the answers lie in the sales volumn, not opinion

[post="28093"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Remember to think this through before you post. Pontiac has the Solstice (compact sports car), Montana SV6 (mini van), Torrent (sm SUV), G6 (midsize sedan), Grand Prix (midsize sedan?), Vibe (Toyota rebadge), GTO (midsize sports car). More than half that lineup is crap minus the Solstice, GTO, and the Torrent! Pontiac has some nice looking cars, but it also has some of the cheapest looking interiors that I have ever seen! I think that in terms of who has the most potential I think that it would be Pontiac, but the strongest brand overall would be Saturn by far!

Saturn is on their way to having all their vehicles redesigned within 2 years, and having doubled the lineup they had before. Not to mention their awesome customer service, and no hassle purchasing.

I would rather purchase a vehicle based on it's quality not how many they can produce...

Just my 2 cents.

[razoredge]

Remember to think this through before you post.  Pontiac has the Solstice (compact sports car), Montana SV6 (mini van), Torrent (sm SUV), G6 (midsize sedan), Grand Prix (midsize sedan?), Vibe (Toyota rebadge), GTO (midsize sports car).  More than half that lineup is crap minus the Solstice, GTO, and the Torrent!  Pontiac has some nice looking cars, but it also has some of the cheapest looking interiors that I have ever seen!  I think that in terms of who has the most potential I think that it would be Pontiac, but the strongest brand overall would be Saturn by far!

Saturn is on their way to having all their vehicles redesigned within 2 years, and having doubled the lineup they had before.  Not to mention their awesome customer service, and no hassle purchasing.

I would rather purchase a vehicle based on it's quality not how many they can produce... 

Just my 2 cents.

[post="29310"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Think it through ? saturin has never turned a buck ! never ! If you dont turn a buck it means you are worthless blood sucking scum. That is saturins history, not something that needs to be thought through.

We have a bunch of people here putting staurins strenght up high on speculation. Yet they are still not profitable. Like I said "big deal", they have a few new cars coming out, one of which is a rebadged Solstice with some Corvette looks. The rest are from what I understand rebadged Opels which were at one time imported and sold by Buick dealerships but sold under the name by which they were manufactured - Opel. But you know what......just like saturin they were junk and not that desireable in the States.

All this saturin crap is speculation with not one thread of reality. That money spent on their "new" lineup could have been better spent at Buick and Pontiac and the Buick and Pontiac dealerships could have sold real Opels as Opels and that would have helped at the dealership level as well.

GM knows this too, they are just hangin on this saturin thing because they just cant accept defeat and wrap it up. They will insist on making saturin some form of "profitable", all others be damned.

[Satty]

Saturn has never turned a profit, true, but the brand did allow GM to stray from normal business practices. Trying something different can lead to good things. The no-haggle pricing, unique cars, unique dealer experience, the UAW contract, those are all things that could have spread to other brands if GM had any clue what it was doing. They tried these things, some worked and some didn't, without messing with the reputation of an established brand. GM fucked up in the way it handled Saturn, starving it for product when the pretty hot selling S-series started to slide off, the VUE has been holding the brand up for a few years. Saturn didn't kill Oldsmobile, GM did.