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Second Presidential Debate


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Since the other two political threads were turning into nonsense, I decided to start one to discuss the second debate and see if we can't have a better discussion than the other two threads...

So, feel free to discuss your thoughts on the second debate here.

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I'm not expecting much of substance from this debate, since there wont be any real debating. The candidates will get questions from the audience and the internet, and answer them. They wont address each other (not that they addressed one another last time) and probably wont get follow-up questions from the moderator.

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Question 1: Obama answers the question about helping the people hurting most by this economy

McCain talks about energy independence and then proposes a MASSIVE spending bill to buy up homes at their new lower value and then re-sell them back to the home owner.

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Brokaw ALWAYS sounds drunk. Prolly is.

Black guy stands up, mumbles a question about 'what's in the rescue bill for me?' Barry steps up to him, says 'I'll tell you what's in it for you', then rambles and meanders around restating the problem, quickly dropping into the oh-so-tired campaign trail rut of '8 more years' and 'more of the same' while the questioneer blinks at Barry, wondering where his answer is.

I tuned out after about 15 minutes- there is zero point to these debates because neither will seemingly stray from bumper sticker politicing.

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Unless something big happens in the next hour, I think this debate will be a wash. Like balthazar said, both candidates are basically repeating what has been said in the past and not really straying beyond.

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I hate to say it, but I think McCain has this one. Obama hasn't been as forceful and has had a lot of pauses in his speaking. Obama just doesn't seem as at ease as he normally is. Hopefully the closing statement ends on a stronger note.

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I think its a bad idea that will cost the government a lot of money. Lets say a person has a $200,000 mortgage, the government buys it, then its determined that the house is worth $160,000. Thats a $40,000 loss, and absolutely no financial gain.

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Pretty boring -- same old, same old.

The "my friends" thing is annoying. Curious how the McCain mortgage buyback policy unfolds after tonight -- only thing new I heard.

I wonder if he made that policy up on the spot... seems like it could be very costly..

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I think its a bad idea that will cost the government a lot of money. Lets say a person has a $200,000 mortgage, the government buys it, then its determined that the house is worth $160,000. Thats a $40,000 loss, and absolutely no financial gain.

Yeah, or like I've seen in the Denver area---$400k mortgage, house worth $300k... ouch.

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Can someone tell me why Tom Brokaw was such a bitch about the time rule, but didn't seem to care at all about making the candidates answer the question that was asked? It was incredibly frustrating how both candidates dodged any question they wanted. This debate was only conclusive about one thing: This debate format sucked.

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I think its a bad idea that will cost the government a lot of money. Lets say a person has a $200,000 mortgage, the government buys it, then its determined that the house is worth $160,000. Thats a $40,000 loss, and absolutely no financial gain.

Well, actually, if you participate in this program, you have to promise a portion of any future profits on the sale of the house to the government. So if you let the goverment eat your $40,000 loss today but sell your house in 15 years at a $100,000 gain, the government gets to take $40,000 of that back.

I made up the percentages, but that's basically house it works.

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I wonder if he made that policy up on the spot... seems like it could be very costly..

Could be. At least it's something new to hear about and maybe will cut some of the negative ads from both sides. McCain's lack of wanting to prioritize is a bit concerning too. The math on this stuff doesn't appear to hold up -- cut taxes, cut some gvt spending, then spend more + war costs. :scratchchin:

4 more weeks until it's over...can't wait!

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Can someone tell me why Tom Brokaw was such a bitch about the time rule, but didn't seem to care at all about making the candidates answer the question that was asked? It was incredibly frustrating how both candidates dodged any question they wanted. This debate was only conclusive about one thing: This debate format sucked.

Commercial Television and East Coast time deadlines for the 11 pm news. I think that the artificial time limits stunts the debate. It's about the $.

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Thats assuming people hold on to their homes long enough for the value to increase. If the government eats $40,000 up front, but the house only sells for a $10,000 gain, the government is out $30,000, unless we get into some sort of government mortgage perpetuity deal where a house has to be mortgaged through the Treasury until the loss is recouped.

Edited by Satty
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Could be. At least it's something new to hear about and maybe will cut some of the negative ads from both sides. McCain's lack of wanting to prioritize is a bit concerning too. The math on this stuff doesn't appear to hold up -- cut taxes, cut some gvt spending, then spend more + war costs. :scratchchin:

4 more weeks until it's over...can't wait!

The old phrase 'voodoo economics' comes to mind.

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Well, apparently my gut instinct was wrong...two polls have Obama winning this debate so far, with CNN by a pretty large margin.

I thought Obama's quip about the wheel falling off the straight talk express was pretty good.

One major mistake that McCain made was when he was answering the question of the African American guy, he made the assumption that the young man asking the question didn't know who Fannie and Freddie were before the crisis. I know McCain was trying to be "folksy" by acting as if that man were maybe just an average American that doesn't follow all the Wall Street hoopla (and the man did a pretty poor job of articulating the question), but it is a mistake to assume the intelligence of someone you don't know. He should have known that.

Edited by mustang84
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Thats assuming people hold on to their homes long enough for the value to increase. If the government eats $40,000 up front, but the house only sells for a $10,000 gain, the government is out $30,000, unless we get into some sort of government mortgage perpetuity deal where a house has to be mortgaged through the Treasury until the loss is recouped.

which is why it's a bad idea.... but that's how the plan works

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Both McCain and Obama rambled on and on, McCain a little more than Obama. Obama sat there with his "I'm Smarter than You" expression on. The country should be able to do better than these two. Obama is a tool of the extreme left and McCain is all over the place. We all lose.

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Same questions with the same answers from both of the candidates. Yawn.

Seriously, are these our ONLY choices that have a chance to win? Anybody else got a chance than these two???? PLEASE?

Such it is with the two party system. And remember, the primary season was very compressed this year, so the field was winnowed to 2 very quickly.

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"My friends" drove me nuts. It was like he was a used car salesman trying to con me into buying a lemon.

Since this is an automotive forum...yeah...he is trying to get you to buy a "used car"...a Maverick....72 model....and a lemon.

Chris

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I think the other two threads were more exciting. IMHO

You may be right, but for whoever gets in office it will be a very long four years. I don't envy either of them. The economy isn't going to get better for at least 5-8 years IMHO, and it may get MUCH worse.

We are already loosing a lot of contracts at work because none of our clients can get financed for any form of commercial construction, not even the hospital that 3 of my 5 children were born at.

When Ohio Health, INC. can't get a loan for capital improvements, we are in trouble.

There is no quick fix for any of this.

Chris

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Since this is an automotive forum...yeah...he is trying to get you to buy a "used car"...a Maverick....72 model....and a lemon.

Chris

With 4 bald recap bias-ply tires, an engine knock, and lots of bondo.. :)

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I don't think this debate reflected well on either candidate, but I also get the feeling that the two candidates could be Jesus and Gandhi and people would be complaining that it was a lose-lose situation. The level of disillusionment with politics in our country is depressing.

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I though up a potential scam related to McCain's mortgage buyback plan. Buy a house for, oh lets say $1.5 million. Have it appraised for some ridiculously low amount, say $60,000. You get to live in a $1.5 mil house for like $600/month, then when the credit crunch eases up, sell the house for some ridiculously large mount, lets say $2.5 million. The government can have their $1,440,000 back and I walk away with a million in profits after living however long in a really spendy house for about what a decent 3-bedroom apartment would cost per month.

Edit: I realize there are a ton of flaws, but its fun to scheme.

Edited by Satty
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McCain made a pretty bad move by referring to Obama as "that one".

I think it is interesting how the polls suggest that Obama actually won the foreign policy part of the debate, which is what McCain is supposed to be good at.

McCain shows a lack or respect in this debate too by making faces and letting his eyes wonder while Obama at least looked at McCain as he spoke and kept a straight face for the most part.

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I dont know how McCain would be as president, but he is horrible as a candidate for the office. He'd be better off if I were running his campaign and I dont particularly like the guy or his ideas.

Given McCain's alleged temper, I'm waiting for him to say Obama can fo f*ck himself or something. Google "McCain temper" and you'll see some stories of him lashing out at other Senators. If you're really lucky, you'll read about him calling his wife a c*nt after she criticized his hair.

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There's a clip on YouTube from the 80s when he made some Veterans Affairs woman cry at a Senate meeting.

Even in the debates, you can see McCain steaming behind his forced smile. The Rolling Stone article talked about him picking fights in high school due to his inferiority complex about his height. And he has a long history of wreckless behavior when he served in the military. I just don't get the vibe that he would be a stable president.

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What McCain did when he was in HS should be a mile below the significance of the Islamic school Barry attended when he was 10, since that's so much more recent, right?

If 50-yr old school fights are to be weighed as an indication of a McCain presidency, you should be having a damned time dismissing all the criminals & socialists when considering BO as Pres.

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What McCain did when he was in HS should be a mile below the significance of the Islamic school Barry attended when he was 10, since that's so much more recent, right?

If 50-yr old school fights are to be weighed as an indication of a McCain presidency, you should be having a damned time dismissing all the criminals & socialists when considering BO as Pres.

I call BS.

Actually, the school in Indonesia was a public school., That rumour was debunked almost 2 years ago. You Republicans need to get better at checking your facts. Of course, if you stick to Fox News, you won't get the facts.

CNN Article

Edited by moltar
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Pssssht...facts just get in the way. Besides, it easier to say "I wont vote for a guy who is close with a domestic terrorist" than it is to say "I wont vote for the black guy." I'm going to be accused of playing the race card, but what the hell. The madrassa thing has been debunked. The Ayers thing doesn't hold water. Rezko could be in play, but that doesn't get the "ignorant fear gland*" going the way tenuous terrorist ties do.

*Ignorant fear gland: Using the one-two punch of terrorists and taxes to scare people into voting for a phantom agenda, exploited by Republicans for years

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McCain and Palin's attacks against Obama using the terrorism card reek of the same tactics Bush used to get himself re-elected in 2004. I know, because I voted for Bush mostly on the premise of national security. Under Bush, we have seen acts put into law with loose wording that can infringe upon the Constitution. We've had wiretapping, monitoring of e-mails, voicemail, and internet. We have secret prisons across the globe, and we have used tactics of torture, in direct violation of the Geneva Convention. We still have plenty of unanswered questions from 9/11 that sadly will probably never be answered. When I went abroad, the anti-American sentiment was everywhere. The last eight years, we have looked less like the Democracy we fought for and more like the Empire we revolted against.

I'm tired of it, I'm tired of the lies, and I'm tired of the lack of accountability from Bush, Cheney, & Co. McCain is looking more like a Bush understudy, and his sleazy attempts at painting Obama as a terrorist and Muslim radical are beyond low. It reeks of desperation.

America deserves better.

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I call BS. Actually, the school in Indonesia was a public school., That rumour was debunked almost 2 years ago. You Republicans need to get better at checking your facts. Of course, if you stick to Fox News, you won't get the facts.

CNN Article

Who are you calling a Republican ??

In 2008 CNN went to Indonesia to investigate, reporting the status of the school today. This is the typical focus shift tactic the left-wing media uses continually to misdirect.

While the school is public, Barry's stepfather did register him as "Islamic". In The Audacity of Hype :wink: , BO does state "I was first sent to a neighborhood Catholic school, then to a predominately Muslim school." Now, I don't think that means a GD thing, but the facts are the facts. You might do yourself a favor by researching your messiah a bit deeper than the marshmallow fluff CNN spoons you.

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Who are you calling a Republican ??

By your posts, I assumed you were one. So you are an independent right-winger?

In 2008 CNN went to Indonesia to investigate, reporting the status of the school today. This is the typical focus shift tactic the left-wing media uses continually to misdirect.

While the school is public, Barry's stepfather did register him as "Islamic". In The Audacity of Hype :wink: , BO does state "I was first sent to a neighborhood Catholic school, then to a predominately Muslim school." Now, I don't think that means a GD thing, but the facts are the facts. You might do yourself a favor by researching your messiah a bit deeper than the marshmallow fluff CNN spoons you.

Whatever.

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I watched the debate finally. It was rough trying to avoid any news about it so I could develop my own opinion.

I counted "my friends" 14 times, but I may have missed one or two. Obama used the term "fundamental" a lot, which is tiring, but at least he used it in at least 3 different ways this time. Still not nearly as annoying as the catch phrases of McCain/Palin.

With the exception of McCain getting grumpy a couple times, I'd say it was a pretty equal debate. I saw a little more substance from McCain than I have previously, but there wasn't a whole lot of substance to go around really. What was that little blip McCain said about Obama's nuclear policy that he started to say and then quickly interjected "well you know" and went on with his spiel? That and a couple times right when he finished a statement and turned to go sit down, he would have a very tasteless grin on his face, as if saying "take that!".

McCain's voice irritated me through most of the debate. He sounded almost whiny and came off with a very matter-of-fact tone. The way he drags out all his words perhaps.

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>>"The Ayers thing doesn't hold water. "<<

Right-o.

Let's review, kiddies.

Here, again, is a recent pic of Ayers standing on the American Flag (cowardly out-of-sight in a narrow alleyway):

features_ayers1.jpg

Nice, would be a great mentor to anyone.

He was and still is a subversive anti-American radical, instead of orchestrating bombings, he delights in turning young minds (teachers & students) into indoctrinated mush. Although Barry laughably tried to dismiss him as "just a guy from the neighborhood", Barry launched his political career from Ayers' living room coffee table & has never dis-associated himself from Ayers. Just happenstance, or is there something more?

From his soon-to-released publication (I kid you not) Sing a Battle Song: The Revolutionary Poetry, Statements and Communiqués of the Weather Underground, 1970-1974 : “Once things were connected,” Ayers’s introduction recollects, “we saw a system at work, we were radicalized, we named that system—imperialism—and forged an idea of how to overthrow it. We were influenced by Marx, but we were formed more closely and precisely by Che, Ho, Malcolm X, Amílcar Cabral, Mandela—the Third World revolutionaries—and we called ourselves small ‘c’ communists to indicate our rejection of what had become of Marx in the Soviet Block [sic]. . . . We were anti-authoritarian, anti-orthodoxy, communist street fighters.”

Ayers also believes evil corporations exercise thought control through the public school system.

For another course @ Columbia, titled "Improving Learning Environments," Ayers proposes that teachers "be aware of the social and moral universe we inhabit and . . . be a teacher capable of hope and struggle, outrage and action, a teacher teaching for social justice and liberation."

Sounds like any political speeches you've heard recently (& incessantly)?

Oh, wait... that's right- Barry was only 8 when the bombs went off- how could there be any concern about this professional & personal relationship with merely a 'guy from the neighborhood' ??

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>>"By your posts, I assumed you were one. "<<

So far you've guessed I was between 60 & 75 yrs old and a registered Republican. You're 0 for 2; how's that assuming thing working for you otherwise? ;)

Whatever.

Pssssht...facts just get in the way.

:rolleyes:
Edited by balthazar
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>>"By your posts, I assumed you were one. "<<

So far you've guessed I was between 60 & 75 yrs old and a registered Republican. You're 0 for 2; how's that assuming thing working for you otherwise? ;)

Well, from the tone of your posts, you certainly seem like a grumpy old man....

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The "that one" gesture was a nice passive aggressive WTF moment.

Speaking of WTF moments, McCain started off with this gem directed at Obama: "It's good to be with you at a town hall meeting". It doesn't seem too odd, except McCain followed it immediately by the little sarcastic snicker he does all too often. I don't recall Obama taking any shots at McCain in the first debate because McCain tried to cancel it and then changed his mind at the last moment. But because Obama didn't agree to any of the debates McCain proposed (and vice versa), McCain felt like he had to make that little sarcastic comment. It's completely tasteless and unprofessional.

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Speaking of WTF moments, McCain started off with this gem directed at Obama: "It's good to be with you at a town hall meeting". It doesn't seem too odd, except McCain followed it immediately by the little sarcastic snicker he does all too often. I don't recall Obama taking any shots at McCain in the first debate because McCain tried to cancel it and then changed his mind at the last moment. But because Obama didn't agree to any of the debates McCain proposed (and vice versa), McCain felt like he had to make that little sarcastic comment. It's completely tasteless and unprofessional.

thatonesk9_2.jpg

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features_ayers1.jpg

there are 2 things in this world that burn my fuse quicker than anything else.

1. disrespect for other peoples property i.e. vehicles.

2. anyone disrespecting that flag. there is blood from family and friends that make that RED white and blue. id be hard pressed not to break that old man's hip if i happend upon that.

Edited by cletus8269
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>>"2. anyone disrespecting that flag. there is blood from family and friends that make that RED white and blue."<<

I'm with ya there, but it doesn't bother Barry O'bama one bit. Ayers is a scumbag radical dip&#036;h&#33;, but he's a good friend & (informal) advisor to BO ("no; just a guy from the neighborhood"), not to mention campaign contributor, fund raiser, co-board member, campaign organizer, etc. 'Doesn't matter' the dem lemmings will tell you, 'Ayers only contributed $200' they will protest, 'BO was only 8 when the bombs were tossed' they will cry, as if that explains ANYTHING, as if anything anyone ever did in the past means nothing today. Throw open the doors of the prisions; whatever anyone did is all in the past and everyone is reformed and above reproach !! "They're all good eggs in there, they're all my brothers, let them out!" -Obama

I could really admire the BO campaign's ability to misdirect, defuse and obscure (on an international level perhaps) , if what was behind that wasn't nearly so insidious.

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Tying Obama to Ayers is the same as tying McCain to Marylin Shannon. The two shared a dais at a 1993 event in Oregon. Marylin Shannon refused to condemn a woman who shot a doctor who was performing legal abortions. In fact, she called the shooter "a fine lady." Isn't shooting or murdering someone in the name of a belief terror? Wouldn't that then make the "fine lady" a terrorist? Since Shannon didn't seem to disagree with her, and McCain appeared with her, McCain supports domestic terror.

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>>"2. anyone disrespecting that flag. there is blood from family and friends that make that RED white and blue."<<

I'm with ya there, but it doesn't bother Barry O'bama one bit. Ayers is a scumbag radical dip&#036;h&#33;, but he's a good friend & (informal) advisor to BO ("no; just a guy from the neighborhood"), not to mention campaign contributor, fund raiser, co-board member, campaign organizer, etc. 'Doesn't matter' the dem lemmings will tell you, 'Ayers only contributed $200' they will protest, 'BO was only 8 when the bombs were tossed' they will cry, as if that explains ANYTHING, as if anything anyone ever did in the past means nothing today. Throw open the doors of the prisions; whatever anyone did is all in the past and everyone is reformed and above reproach !! "They're all good eggs in there, they're all my brothers, let them out!" -Obama

I could really admire the BO campaign's ability to misdirect, defuse and obscure (on an international level perhaps) , if what was behind that wasn't nearly so insidious.

Why do you always refer to Obama as Barry instead of Barack? Are you trying to somehow defame his reputation or name by doing so? I don't think it's working.

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I didn't watch the debate, but I saw the "highlights" on the Daily Show rerun earlier this evening. I wonder why McCain was wondering around the background while Obama was talking.

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Obama is not the man he claims to be, personally I could care less about Ayers but what scares me is he feels comfortable around people like him. Another reason I am very scared of him. His socialistic views scare me and I am a middle class person with a 3 bedroom home in town a 60,000. I am still voting republican because I feel that his (McCains) values most closely follow mine less goverment and taxes for all. I also believe in him and his record of reform. I had considered voting for Hillary (always liked her not Bill) but once she was taken out it made my choice easier. ALOT easier because Obama is not one quater of the person Hillary was or an 1/8 of the man McCain is.

Edited by gm4life
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Obama is not the man he claims to be, personally I could care less about Ayers but what scares me is he feels comfortable around people like him. Another reason I am very scared of him. His socialistic views scare me and I am a middle class person with a 3 bedroom home in town a 60,000. I am still voting republican because I feel that his (McCains) values most closely follow mine less goverment and taxes for all. I also believe in him and his record of reform. I had considered voting for Hillary (always liked her not Bill) but once she was taken out it made my choice easier. ALOT easier because Obama is not one quater of the person Hillary was or an 1/8 of the man McCain is.

McCain is not the man he claims to be. He wants to get into the white house so bad he's obviously willing to do anything to get in. That's one thing that scares me about him. The attitude coming from McCain and Palin isn't helping either.

Obama has a good education including a JD. Biden has a good education including a JD. Obama's wife even has a JD. None of them come from rich families, and have had to work to get where they are. They have a lot in common with me, and I respect them because of it. That's what is influencing my vote. I honestly don't see how anyone can vote for McCain/Palin. A naval academy underachiever and a news reporter.

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Why do you always refer to Obama as Barry instead of Barack? Are you trying to somehow defame his reputation or name by doing so? I don't think it's working.

What reputation would that be ???

Didn't you & I already go over this: he went under that name growing up. Does anyone who supports him know anything about him personally ??

>>"McCain is not the man he claims to be. He wants to get into the white house so bad he's obviously willing to do anything to get in."<<

Do you think BO is just out for an evening stroll here ??????? If anyone is not who he claims to be, it's BO. Tho that's a side-step: he's revealed almost nothing about himself and has denied what has come out. Don't forget- his is an "historic" bid we whites are duty-bound to elect to amend for our races' sins.

Edited by balthazar