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Driving Away Excitement...G8 dead in 5 years


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One less reason to root for GM

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=134167

DETROIT — After acknowledging that there will be no replacement for the Solstice roadster, Pontiac looks like it will lose a little more excitement when the rear-wheel-drive G8 sedan goes out of production in about five years' time.

According to sources, Pontiac will not get a version of the next rear-drive platform that underpins the Australian Holden Commodore. This move is indicative of a fundamental switch in direction for Pontiac, the General Motors division that just a few years ago was envisioned by Bob Lutz to be the American BMW. The deaths of the Solstice and the eventual discontinuation of the next-generation G8 will leave Pontiac with zero rear-wheel-drive vehicles.

Pontiac already sells the G5, a Chevrolet Cobalt with the ol' excitement treatment and soon will begin selling a version of the subcompact Chevrolet Aveo called the G3. Not exactly sporting propositions, those.

Limited corporate resources and fear of rising fuel-economy standards look to be the prime drivers in the return of Pontiac to the badge-engineering days. Those limited funds might also explain why the midsize G6 sedan won't be substantially updated (to match the level of refinement of the recently revamped Chevy Malibu) for about another five years.

Inside Line says: You've still got plenty of time to pick up your very own G8 — the high-horsepower GXP and the quasi-pickup-truck ST versions are still to be introduced. But you don't have forever.

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:bs:

Exactly how much did it cost to rebadge the Commodre as a G8 vs rebadging the Aveo as a G3, or the Cobalt as a G5, or the Equinox as a Torrent? And again, compare the MPGs of a 6cyl Malibu to a 6cyl G8 and the whole "FWD is better for fuel economy" argument goes away.

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Well, they killed off the Zeta more than once during this interval...

But then again, now's the time to develop the next version of the platform.

And I wouldn't be surprised if this Chrysler thing went through, and the headline changed to "Pontiac dead in 5 years"... Not that I think the 300's platform is any better than the Zeta - and hopefully GM's not thinking the same thing.

Edited by traumadog
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Well, they killed off the Zeta more than once during this interval...

But then again, now's the time to develop the next version of the platform.

And I wouldn't be surprised if this Chrysler thing went through, and the headline changed to "Pontiac dead in 5 years"... Not that I think the 300's platform is any better than the Zeta - and hopefully GM's not thinking the same thing.

If LY doesn't come out and they have to soldier on with LX, bye-bye 6A transmissions. Chrysler doesn't have a 6A transmission for longitudinal duty anywhere in their company, probably because it won't fit the platforms. So GM's 6A RWD trannies probably won't fit either.

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:bs:

Waaay to soon to make such a determination - at least one that uses anything resembling logic.

Only a political decision could be so dense.

+1

5 years is a long time and A LOT of financial time. Hell, for all we know, GM could be gone in 5 years.

*IF* this decision has been made, it's purely political and I can't believe some people (ahem, Bob) inside GM would allow such idiots to have so much control over the company.

I'm sure this is negative PR spin from the OTHER side of GM's mouth to try and put a damper on GXP sales.

There are other options as well. (as opposed to developing a new version of Zeta) They could put it on Alpha or use LY if they acquire Chrysler, or just update this Zeta (a la Sigma II)

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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+1

5 years is a long time and A LOT of financial time. Hell, for all we know, GM could be gone in 5 years.

*IF* this decision has been made, it's purely political and I can't believe some people (ahem, Bob) inside GM would allow such idiots to have so much control over the company.

I'm sure this is negative PR spin from the OTHER side of GM's mouth to try and put a damper on GXP sales.

There are other options as well. (as opposed to developing a new version of Zeta) They could put it on Alpha or use LY if they acquire Chrysler, or just update this Zeta (a la Sigma II)

I assume it's part of the Pontiac phase out... concentrate on fleetable FWD generics, and slowly wind down the brand.

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To clarify my position a bit, I'm OK with this G8 dying in five years, as that's a perfectly acceptable model cycle. The point of contention is whether Pontiac will be allowed to have a suitable replacement.

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I assume it's part of the Pontiac phase out... concentrate on fleetable FWD generics, and slowly wind down the brand.

I totally agree. It's a pretty easy formula. Give Pontiac rebadged Chevys and fleet the Pontiac's instead of the Chevys (or at least moreso)... as a result the Pontiacs, which will likely have a higher MSRP to begin with, will have by far worse resale value than the Chevy counterpart.

Advantage Chevy on price and resale value makes there be less reason to buy the Pontiac. Add in the Chevy versions getting by far more advertising, as we're already seeing (little to no advertising for Pontiac) and Pontiac shows up even less on the radar. Eventually (7-10 years down the road probably) no dealer's are going to see any reason to stock Pontiacs because no one will be buying them and it won't be profitable, and the dealer's will close themselves down, at least the Pontiac part. GM then doesn't have to deal with many dealers when it gets rid of Pontiac.

In summary, first Pontiac gets fleeted to reduce resale value, which combined with higher prices, makes there be no reason to buy a Pontiac vs. the almost identical Chevy which has higher resale and lower initial price. Next, we see no advertising for Pontiac, as if it doesn't exist. The public no longer recognizes Pontiac as a brand that offers anything for them, as they are turned off by higher-than-Chevy prices and lower resale, and in addition to that, see no advertising for the brand. Pontiac is no longer a consideration for them when it comes to buying a car. Finally, dealers can't profitably sell Pontiac cars anymore, so they drop the brand. Once a good portion of them close, GM can close Pontiac and won't have many repercussions from dealers.

The dealers essentially put this on themselves when they whined and cried for the G5. GM must have been thinking "hmm, if they are happy with rebadged Chevys, why should we waste our money giving them anything else?"

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Didn't the 1st version of the miata shamble on for like 12 years (then get a 'Chinese-knock-off' redo to boot)? Cannot the Solstice do likewise? If there is no money for a replacement, continue the current car with a minor refresh.

They are somehow losing $12,000 per kappa?

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Honestly I think it is too early too tell. I do hope Pontiac will be more than just slight rebadges now if they share a platform I could care less. Also the G8 was very cheap to do so I doubt from a cost standpoint they could do it.

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Honestly I think it is too early too tell. I do hope Pontiac will be more than just slight rebadges now if they share a platform I could care less. Also the G8 was very cheap to do so I doubt from a cost standpoint they could do it.

Well, 4/7th of their models are slight rebadges currently, so the trend is definitely there...

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Predicting what will happen at GM in 5 years is a lot more difficult than predicting what

will happen in the year 2250 based on a Mayan calendar/hieroglyphics. I hope to God

this is absolutely false, but either way no one outside GM has any real idea where GM

and Pontiac will be in 2013.

These articles about the automotive industry are starting to sound more-n-more like

those over-the-top political ads:

"Candidate X is a role model, he was endorsed by Nelson Mandella, Mother Theresa,

1300 Jewish Rabbis living in NYC, the entire Denver Broncos & he even has a birthmark

in the shape of Jesus on his chest, he wants to give you a tax break, free healthcare &

will raise taxes for people who like to kick puppies and spit on the flag. Everyone else

will pay less taxes, and you'll even get a Pony on your birthday.

BUT

Candidate Z will take away your social security, ship your job to North Korea & give your

employer a tax break for doing so.... he once was quoted as saying that the only thing he

likes better than war mongering is pushing his grandmother down the stairs! He is wrong

for our country and he is wrong for you!

Vote Candidate X, (I'm candidate X and I approve this message!) "

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None of us here should be suprised if this does come about.

We all know the Zeta has a limited time even with the Camaro on the market.

Also the Kappa has just not been profitable as well as they had hoped. If times were better they may work more with Kappa but the money needs to go to projects that will save GM and not just halo Pontiac.

What worries me is the lack of any future anounced or rumored product that is fitting of the Pontiac name other than the G8 ST coming.

If they do not do at the least an Alpha a couple more exciting non rebaged Chevy cars they may as well shut them down. If the G6 ends up being the best they offer is it really worth damaging the name to the point so you could not pull it out and use it again at a later date.

One look at the Autoweek new car guide I got last week said it all on Pontiac THe G8 and Solstive were great, the G6 was good but not outstanding and the G3-5, Vibe and Torrent really should not even be Pontiacs.

I still stand to call for GM to park Pontiac till they can better use the name at a later time. Right now the Pontiac name is becoming what Packard became in the 50's. There is a risk it may never return but is the worse than a Aveo G3 Pontiac?

I do not say any of this to provoke anyone but they are just my own personel feelings. I hope I am wrong but right now GM has not shown me any reason not to change my feelings. At the way things are going we will be lucky if there even a Chevy to even rebadge.

Edited by hyperv6
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This brand is dead come 2013. Solstice and G8 have no replacement, G6 is living on til 2012 or so with no update, G5, G3, Vibe are lame rebadges. There is no point it keeping this brand anymore, give up and spend the money on Chevy.

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Predicting what will happen at GM in 5 years is a lot more difficult than predicting what

will happen in the year 2250 based on a Mayan calendar/hieroglyphics. I hope to God

this is absolutely false, but either way no one outside GM has any real idea where GM

and Pontiac will be in 2013....

Actually, the Mayan calendar ends December 21, 2012...

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Good Riddance. I would LOVE to see that stupid Holden G8 to die, cause I never liked the idea of importing the rebadged Aussie sedan to a Pontiac in the first place, unless it sold ALONGSIDE the Grand Prix(NEVER TO BE KILLED), and no offense. I would rather see Pontiac die than to see G8 continues to be made in outside of North America. I want to see Pontiac close down unless they go BACK to the North AMERICAN only brand. No Korean, No Japanese, No Aussie rebadges. Not even Chevy rebadges. I already left GM for any of their future nonsence since they failed Pontiac.

Sorry G8 lovers.

Edited by Diehard GrandPrix Fan
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Good Riddance. I would LOVE to see that stupid Holden G8 to die, cause I never liked the idea of importing the rebadged Aussie sedan to a Pontiac in the first place, unless it sold ALONGSIDE the Grand Prix(NEVER TO BE KILLED), and no offense. I would rather see Pontiac die than to see G8 continues to be made in outside of North America. I want to see Pontiac close down unless they go BACK to the North AMERICAN only brand. No Korean, No Japanese, No Aussie rebadges. Not even Chevy rebadges. I already left GM for any of their future nonsence since they failed Pontiac.

Sorry G8 lovers.

The G8 is the only thing "Pontiac" still left in the lineup (well, I guess the Solstice too...but the G8 represents Pontiac best from an historical standpoint).

IMO, the Grand Prix kinda died with the G-body; they weren't so bad in the 90s (especially the GTP), but GM has let the current one wither on the vine far too long. The G6 was compromised from the concept, the G3 will be a joke, the Torrent should have never happened. I do miss the Bonneville (the GXP's looked great), but that's another one that should have never strayed to FWD.

In general, I wouldn't agree that the Grand Prix or anything else is more Pontiac than the G8; the GP uses a GM corporate platform (W-body), GM corporate engines, GM corporate switchgear, GM corporate radios, and a number of other GM corporate parts. The reason the G8 is so great to us is that is anti-everything that Pontiac has become the last two decades, American-designed or not. And at the end of the day, everything about the G8 is still GM...it just happens that it was designed in a place where folks still desire heart-pounding RWD performance.

Personally, I'd just be happy if Pontiac was a small alpha coupe and sedan and a larger RWD sedan. Pontiac doesn't need a plethora of vehicles...they just need a focus.

Edited by mustang84
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The G8 is the only thing "Pontiac" still left in the lineup (well, I guess the Solstice too...but the G8 represents Pontiac best from an historical standpoint).

IMO, the Grand Prix kinda died with the G-body; they weren't so bad in the 90s (especially the GTP), but GM has let the current one wither on the vine far too long. The G6 was compromised from the concept, the G3 will be a joke, the Torrent should have never happened. I do miss the Bonneville (the GXP's looked great), but that's another one that should have never strayed to FWD.

In general, I wouldn't agree that the Grand Prix or anything else is more Pontiac than the G8; the GP uses a GM corporate platform (W-body), GM corporate engines, GM corporate switchgear, GM corporate radios, and a number of other GM corporate parts. The reason the G8 is so great to us is that is anti-everything that Pontiac has become the last two decades, American-designed or not. And at the end of the day, everything about the G8 is still GM...it just happens that it was designed in a place where folks still desire heart-pounding RWD performance.

Personally, I'd just be happy if Pontiac was a small alpha coupe and sedan and a larger RWD sedan. Pontiac doesn't need a plethora of vehicles...they just need a focus.

They do need a focus and if it means no Vibe or Torrent than I am okay with that. Whatever it takes to keep them alive. I do doubt Pontiac won't bring back another G8 just because it isn't very costly and as far as looks and performance it is what a Pontiac has always been.

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The G8 is the only thing "Pontiac" still left in the lineup (well, I guess the Solstice too...but the G8 represents Pontiac best from an historical standpoint).

IMO, the Grand Prix kinda died with the G-body; they weren't so bad in the 90s (especially the GTP), but GM has let the current one wither on the vine far too long. The G6 was compromised from the concept, the G3 will be a joke, the Torrent should have never happened. I do miss the Bonneville (the GXP's looked great), but that's another one that should have never strayed to FWD.

In general, I wouldn't agree that the Grand Prix or anything else is more Pontiac than the G8; the GP uses a GM corporate platform (W-body), GM corporate engines, GM corporate switchgear, GM corporate radios, and a number of other GM corporate parts. The reason the G8 is so great to us is that is anti-everything that Pontiac has become the last two decades, American-designed or not. And at the end of the day, everything about the G8 is still GM...it just happens that it was designed in a place where folks still desire heart-pounding RWD performance.

Personally, I'd just be happy if Pontiac was a small alpha coupe and sedan and a larger RWD sedan. Pontiac doesn't need a plethora of vehicles...they just need a focus.

They do need a focus and if it means no Vibe or Torrent than I am okay with that. Whatever it takes to keep them alive. I do doubt Pontiac won't bring back another G8 just because it isn't very costly and as far as looks and performance it is what a Pontiac has always been.

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This brand is dead come 2013. Solstice and G8 have no replacement,

No announced replacement. But they could very well be added to Alpha at a later date. (Despite what PCS wants us all to believe)

G6 is living on til 2012 or so with no update,

That's just a product of the shape GM is in right now, I think. The Malibu isn't even receiving it's planned update in a few years and the Lacrosse and Insignia have both been delayed.

Vibe [is a] lame rebadge.

I don't understand why everyone here hates the Vibe so badly. It's a very competent and stylish little vehicle that could do WONDERS for Pontiac and it's image, had GM followed through with it's original marketing/plans (Surprise, surprise... GM didn't stick to the plan)

There is no point it keeping this brand anymore, give up and spend the money on Chevy.

Anyone else see the problem with this statement?

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Personally, I'd just be happy if Pontiac was a small alpha coupe and sedan and a larger RWD sedan. Pontiac doesn't need a plethora of vehicles...they just need a focus.

+1

I'm not so sure I buy the fact that Pontiac wouldn't be included in the next gen Commodore as well... Wouldn't Holden need Pontiac now more than ever in order to justify development of that model?

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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+1

I'm not so sure I buy the fact that Pontiac wouldn't be included in the next gen Commodore as well... Wouldn't Holden need Pontiac now more than ever in order to justify development of that model?

Or Chevrolet, or Buick, or Cadillac. Pontiac isn't necessary.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want Pontiac shuttered, but I'm just pointing out the realities present.

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+1

I'm not so sure I buy the fact that Pontiac wouldn't be included in the next gen Commodore as well... Wouldn't Holden need Pontiac now more than ever in order to justify development of that model?

Given the way GM is going, I wouldn't be surprised if the next gen Commodore isn't FWD...GM could probably justify doing a RHD version of the W-body Impala for Holden or something Epsilon II based.

Edited by moltar
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Given the way GM is going, I wouldn't be surprised if the next gen Commodore isn't FWD...GM could probably justify doing a RHD version Epsilon II.

That would be the UK Saab 9-3, Vauxhaull Vectra, and Cadillac BLS........ hence... ready to go.

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That would be the UK Saab 9-3, Vauxhaull Vectra, and Cadillac BLS........ hence... ready to go.

Ya...I meant for OZ....does GM have an Vectra version in OZ currently? Wasn't sure if Holden had an Epsilon model..

Edited by moltar
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This brand is dead come 2013. Solstice and G8 have no replacement, G6 is living on til 2012 or so with no update, G5, G3, Vibe are lame rebadges. There is no point it keeping this brand anymore, give up and spend the money on Chevy.

G6 gets the 2009.5 Update. Not quite what we want, but it is an update nonetheless.

Ya...I meant for OZ....does GM have an Vectra version in OZ currently? Wasn't sure if Holden had an Epsilon model..

Holden replaced the Vectra with the Epica (a.k.a. Daewoo Tosca).

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I heard Edmund Insideline reported that the GM will drop Pontiac soon. I HOPE that is true unless they kill off ALL the imports. I was NEVER a fan of that Aussie trash Holden GTO, and Holden G8(Sorry, GTO and G8 fans), Stupid and lame Daewoo junks by the name of LeMans, and the Toyota garbage Vibe, not to mention the lazy rebadge of the Chevy trash Torrent and G5 wastes. If Pontiac will keep this up consisting nothing but imports and blatent re-badge of only the name and the grille from those stupid looking chevy's, I WANT Pontiac to close down indefinately. Don't get me wrong, I was once a Pontiac fan, when all they had were TRUE domestics that were designed and built in either US, and to some extent borders of Canada, but now, these clowns are killing off all the North American goodies in place of the lame imports just rebadging them and change the grille to Pontiac. I don't care how good these Holdens are, and I know they are good cars, I will give you that, but to me, they are NOT Pontiac, and it should NEVER be considerred as a Pontiac. It should be sold as NOTHING other than Holden name. Nothing else. The Vibes should also go BACK to Toyota instead. I want the AMERICAN MADE cars like Grand Am/G6, Grand Prix, Firebird, Solstice, and Bonniville to remain in their line up no matter how good or bad they are. No matter if they change to RWD or not. Heck, I rather prefer the Aztek(though I know it's least loved due to its 'DIFFERENT' styling) over that lame Chevy re-badge Torrent. I don't care if they sell these Aussie Holden's as Pontiac as long as they DON'T kill these AMERICAN cars ALONGSIDE it. If they keep selling these imports while KILLING the TRUE NORTH AMERICAN Pontiacs that are NOT rebadge in place of it, then I HOPE they kill off Pontiac instead of making them as nothing more than an import seller.

That's my point of view, I am sure every one of you will hate me for that and will flame me saying I am childish, or attack me saying I don't know sh*t about automobile marketting, or even calling me crazy, arrogant SOB or whatever, but that is my opinion. And since these message boards are meant to share opinions and what not, that's what I am doing.

Thanx.

Edited by Diehard GrandPrix Fan
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I wish it was built in the US. But alot of folks on here disagree with you including me. Also I own a 2007 Torrent FWD and a 2005 Bonneville SLE and I am a traditional Pontiac buyer but like the G8 for what it is. I wish you would adopt a different attitude and in the way of styling and performance the G8 is the closest thing to a true Pontiac we have (save for the Solstice).

Edited by gm4life
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I happen to like my Torrent and I hate to break it too you that GP of yours is a LaX, Impala restyle is all. The Theta's are packaged very well have huge backseats in the Torrent/Equinox ride nice and drive good even that old 3.4 paired to the 5spd. autobox is pleasing to drive. I am not putting in my Bonneville's class either but it isn't bad for a small SUV. Nothing more so yeah you have some Chevy trash too. :P:rolleyes:

Edited by gm4life
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I have given up any hope of longevity for the Pontiac division. I think it's extremely sad and tragic, but inevitable. Pontiac has so much untapped potential. Unfortunately, GM seems to be blind to that potential. It appears as though GM views the division as a detriment to the corporation that they must contend with until they can find a way to quietly phase it out. Since Pontiac is the only division that is exclusive to North America (if you consider Saturn a North American cousin to Opel), I think GM doesn't see much of a point in supporting it or keeping it alive. :nono:

Here are a few predictions for the future:

1) Pontiac will be kept alive as an entry level brand in the B-P-G sales channel until Saturn can be merged into the channel to replace it. Once Saturn arrives, Pontiac will be discontinued. There will be no new or next generation products for Pontiac in the future. The upcoming G3, Solstice coupe, and G8 ST will be the last product introductions for the brand. :cry:

2) The next generation Holden Commodore will be paired with a large Chevy sedan in the U.S. My guess would be that the prevailing plan would be to base the car on the proposed Epsilon-Plus platform, which means that the car would end up being FWD (a possible "performance" version could feature AWD?). The alternative plan would be to use a RWD platform for this car (perhaps a stretched version of Alpha?), but I think GM will shy away from this strategy since they seem to be abandoning quite a bit of their future RWD projects. :banghead:

3) The Alpha platform will be utilized to create products primarily for Cadillac. Alpha based products for GM's other divisions will be severely limited. The next gen Camaro and possibly a Buick product might be the only 2 Alpha products to be produced outside of Cadillac. :explode:

I sincerely hope that I'm wrong, but I have a feeling that I'm not. Based on GM's current financial woes as well as unstable economies, fuel issues, environmental concerns, and upcoming governmental regulations, I think these predictions will become the realistic future of GM. Like many of you, I can think of several options or alternatives that would be far more desirable than the predictions listed above. Unfortunately, I doubt those options or alternatives will ever be anything else than pipe dreams. :(

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I have given up any hope of longevity for the Pontiac division. I think it's extremely sad and tragic, but inevitable. Pontiac has so much untapped potential. Unfortunately, GM seems to be blind to that potential. It appears as though GM views the division as a detriment to the corporation that they must contend with until they can find a way to quietly phase it out. Since Pontiac is the only division that is exclusive to North America (if you consider Saturn a North American cousin to Opel), I think GM doesn't see much of a point in supporting it or keeping it alive. :nono:

Here are a few predictions for the future:

1) Pontiac will be kept alive as an entry level brand in the B-P-G sales channel until Saturn can be merged into the channel to replace it. Once Saturn arrives, Pontiac will be discontinued. There will be no new or next generation products for Pontiac in the future. The upcoming G3, Solstice coupe, and G8 ST will be the last product introductions for the brand. :cry:

2) The next generation Holden Commodore will be paired with a large Chevy sedan in the U.S. My guess would be that the prevailing plan would be to base the car on the proposed Epsilon-Plus platform, which means that the car would end up being FWD (a possible "performance" version could feature AWD?). The alternative plan would be to use a RWD platform for this car (perhaps a stretched version of Alpha?), but I think GM will shy away from this strategy since they seem to be abandoning quite a bit of their future RWD projects. :banghead:

3) The Alpha platform will be utilized to create products primarily for Cadillac. Alpha based products for GM's other divisions will be severely limited. The next gen Camaro and possibly a Buick product might be the only 2 Alpha products to be produced outside of Cadillac. :explode:

I sincerely hope that I'm wrong, but I have a feeling that I'm not. Based on GM's current financial woes as well as unstable economies, fuel issues, environmental concerns, and upcoming governmental regulations, I think these predictions will become the realistic future of GM. Like many of you, I can think of several options or alternatives that would be far more desirable than the predictions listed above. Unfortunately, I doubt those options or alternatives will ever be anything else than pipe dreams. :(

I'm going to call you Nostradamus.

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Given the way GM is going, I wouldn't be surprised if the next gen Commodore isn't FWD...GM could probably justify doing a RHD version of the W-body Impala for Holden or something Epsilon II based.

There is currently a rumor circulating that Eps II is being considered for replacing the Lucerne & DTS. It would also be ideal for the next Impala.

Meaning Eps II would be engineered larger and called something else. (Maybe this is the resurrection of Chi from a few years back? Maybe GME is sore about Holden basically killing the possibility for Chi.)

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There is currently a rumor circulating that Eps II is being considered for replacing the Lucerne & DTS. It would also be ideal for the next Impala.

Meaning Eps II would be engineered larger and called something else. (Maybe this is the resurrection of Chi from a few years back? Maybe GME is sore about Holden basically killing the possibility for Chi.)

Interesting... I wonder if GM has considered using the Lambda platform for large FWD/AWD cars? It's their largest FWD platform..

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The G8 is the only thing "Pontiac" still left in the lineup (well, I guess the Solstice too...but the G8 represents Pontiac best from an historical standpoint

Well, not many remember the "old: Pontiac....at least the ones that matter anyways...

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There is currently a rumor circulating that Eps II is being considered for replacing the Lucerne & DTS. It would also be ideal for the next Impala.

Meaning Eps II would be engineered larger and called something else. (Maybe this is the resurrection of Chi from a few years back? Maybe GME is sore about Holden basically killing the possibility for Chi.)

There is no replacement for the Lucy/DTS...big cars are dead....

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Interesting... I wonder if GM has considered using the Lambda platform for large FWD/AWD cars? It's their largest FWD platform..

... and by far the heaviest.

It'd be Zeta again, but pulling instead of pushing.

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... and by far the heaviest.

It'd be Zeta again, but pulling instead of pushing.

Yeah, but at least Lambdas are available w/ a 6spd transmission, which they still haven't figured out how to put in the G and W bodies.

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Interesting... I wonder if GM has considered using the Lambda platform for large FWD/AWD cars? It's their largest FWD platform..

IIRC, the original idea for the Chi platform was to use Lambda as the G-Platform successor. I could see FOG's idea of modifying Epsilon II to resurrect Chi.

But, I believe the LWB Epsilon II (or Epsilon +) has already been officially selected as the platform for the next Impala.

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There is no replacement for the Lucy/DTS...big cars are dead....

Big SUVs, dead... yeah, I can believe that... SUVs are back _only_ for people who NEED them,

With that idea, GM had better pack it in. Even if gas is $15 a gallon, there will be people buying big cars. There are alot of people leaving the SUVs behind, but still need a larger car.

DTS - Cost of average fuel per year @$15/gal... $12500.

Cobalt XFE - same... $7500

I can't live my life in a tiny Cobalt. I'm going to have to eat the extra $5K a year (@$15/gal) to allow myself to fit the people and things in my car. Sure, I'd have to save my money by being more selective with my trips.

I doubt the average American can fit its obese, McD's-fed body into a Cobalt. The Cobalt XFE will be compelling for everyone when it gets 75 mpg _more_ than every large vehicle.

For GM to just give up on big cars, is to surrender the market to the Asian companies... they'll just make more Avalons. Just like GM gave up the police/Taxi market. Just like GM gave up the muscle car market (for 8 years, at least). Just like GM gave up the subcompact market years ago.

GM then should give up all the markets and just continue to build parts for the cars they sold in the last few years, since people are going to be holding on to them for a _long_ time.

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There is a very small full size car segment, and the Asians hardly bother with it. An Avalon or Maxima are smaller than the current LaCrosse. The only thing Lucerne/DTS size is an S-class. The new size for a large car is about 196-199 inches long, the G8, STS, 300C, Taurus, LS460, Avalon, 7-series fit into that range.

Pontiac hasn't had direction in years, the brand is either going to become the rental car outlet of GM or die off.

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Actually, the Mayan calendar ends December 21, 2012...

My calendar, currently hanging on my wall ENDS on Dec. 31st. of 2008. :AH-HA_wink:

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Edited by Sixty8panther
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I wouldn't mind a Chi coming back I see a purpose for it. And if they lose the G8 they better get a LWB Epsilion Bonneville-ish vehicle (think Maxima) with unique styling. I wouldn't be suprised if you see a Chi or something like it with a Lucerne, DTS and possible Bonneville/Impala.

Edited by gm4life
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I have a feeling that after the G8 says bye-bye, Pontiac (in whatever form it lives) wont get anything larger than the G6. Buick and Cadillac can handle larger cars to compete with Lexus, Mercedes and BMW.

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You might be right. But honestly I hope for a full line-up with a focus on performance value and style.

That's what I would have liked to have seen also, but given the current reality, I think the more realistic scenario are Chevy FWD rebadges for Avis, no Solstice and G8 replacements, and phase out before 2015...

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I must say that although I am not a particularly big Pontiac fan, I feel that Pontiac should be GM's outlet for relatively affordable, fun ALL rear-drive cars.

Although this won't happen, it's my two cents.

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This thread is entirely, and completely composed of old BS.

What will be, will be.

But if Pontiac is starved to death and then killed, it will just be yet another glaring example of bad decision making at GM and the beginning of the end for the entire company.

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But if Pontiac is starved to death and then killed, it will just be yet another glaring example of bad decision making at GM and the beginning of the end for the entire company.

Or a loss of yet another fanbase to the import brands... lost marketshare... then the same thing happening in 10 years with another brand. :unsure:

If it's Saturn, that will be all right. :P

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Well, not many remember the "old: Pontiac....at least the ones that matter anyways...

{thinking positive}

And that can be exploited by GM as a HUGE opportunity to re-birth the division into something that is relevant and delivers on its promise.

{/thinking positive}

Just like Mercury is an opportunity that Ford appears to be taking... :smilewide:

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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IIRC, the original idea for the Chi platform was to use Lambda as the G-Platform successor. I could see FOG's idea of modifying Epsilon II to resurrect Chi.

But, I believe the LWB Epsilon II (or Epsilon +) has already been officially selected as the platform for the next Impala.

The info I read stated that LWB Eps II would underpin the next Malibu (Or somehow the next Malibu would grow) and as a result make the cars redundant again (just like they are now) and that started the thinking about Chi.

Another school of thought is that Chevy will get an Alpha sedan as well. If I were a betting man, I'd go with Impala for that IF it happens.

Then again, this is all just chatter, so who knows.

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I have a feeling that after the G8 says bye-bye, Pontiac (in whatever form it lives) wont get anything larger than the G6. Buick and Cadillac can handle larger cars to compete with Lexus, Mercedes and BMW.

That would make the most sense. After all, Pontiac IS the entry point for the B/P/GMC channel. I still think it could support an Alpha model for sure.

And with the way the market is going, again, Pontiac COULD be a tremendous source of growth for GM if this happens.

For GM to just give up on big cars, is to surrender the market to the Asian companies... they'll just make more Avalons. Just like GM gave up the police/Taxi market. Just like GM gave up the muscle car market (for 8 years, at least). Just like GM gave up the subcompact market years ago.

Yep, like I've said before, learned helplessness, except on a corporate level.

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Sorry but GM simply cannot afford to have a 1970's era of 4 full line brands anymore.

And GM stated 3 years ago (2005) that it would only have 2 full line brands.

Problem solved (3 years ago)

Now if GM would just stick to the plan and stop caving to dealers and FOCUS, they could actually make that business model a reality.

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The info I read stated that LWB Eps II would underpin the next Malibu (Or somehow the next Malibu would grow) and as a result make the cars redundant again (just like they are now) and that started the thinking about Chi.

Another school of thought is that Chevy will get an Alpha sedan as well. If I were a betting man, I'd go with Impala for that IF it happens.

Then again, this is all just chatter, so who knows.

I think the way it all fell into place was like this:

Fairfax, KS

*Chevrolet Malibu continue until 2011

*Chevrolet large 4-door notchback beginning in 2010 (Impala on LWB Epsilon II/Epsilon +) This Impala is for the US market only.

Detroit Hamtramck, Mich.

*Global Epsilon Chevrolet beginning in 2012 (NG Malibu on SWB Epsilon II) This Malibu would be sold globally.

-------------------------------

However, W-Platform production of the Impala has been extended from 2012 to '13. It's possible the W-Platform Impala will turn into "Classic" or "Caprice" and carry on as a budget/fleet large car once the Epsilon II Impala arrives in/around 2010.

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The only way you can save Pontiac with rebadged Chevys, a Holden or two and a Toyota is to give each model and let the GM Performance Division tune each and every model.

If you preach performance but you give a rebadged Aveo what does that say?

Pontiac is saying the right things but are not backing up their claim as a performance division other than with a couple GXP cars [not counting the G6] and the G8.

It is time to back up their claims!

If you don't have a G5 that can run with a Cobalt SS and a G6 that can't out run my 72 year old moms 08 3.6 Malibu something is wrong. If they don't fix this even on the present models they may as well call Pontiac the We Build Boring Division. As it stands now my HHR SS is more Exciting than 2/3 the Pontiac line up.

Pontiac has become what the Chevy SS was emblem cars out side the Solstice and G8.

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The only way you can save Pontiac with rebadged Chevys, a Holden or two and a Toyota is to give each model and let the GM Performance Division tune each and every model.

I agree... That's why, in the plan I outlined, every Pontiac was tuned by GMPD and EVERY entry level Pontiac sold would be one trim.

If you preach performance but you give a rebadged Aveo what does that say?

"We are General Mistakes... err, I mean General Motors"

Pontiac is saying the right things but are not backing up their claim as a performance division other than with a couple GXP cars [not counting the G6] and the G8.

It is time to back up their claims!

+1

If you don't have a G5 that can run with a Cobalt SS and a G6 that can't out run my 72 year old moms 08 3.6 Malibu something is wrong. If they don't fix this even on the present models they may as well call Pontiac the We Build Boring Division. As it stands now my HHR SS is more Exciting than 2/3 the Pontiac line up.

Pontiac has become what the Chevy SS was emblem cars out side the Solstice and G8.

+1!!!

I agree 100% And that's why it annoys me so much, GM has the means and the talent to make Pontiac what they want Pontiac to be (FWD or not, volume division or not!) Pontiac is the last bastion of old skool GM product think, and since it's supposedly the FRONT LINE to automotive enthusiasts, that makes absolutely no sense to the point that it pisses me off.

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You might be right. But honestly I hope for a full line-up with a focus on performance value and style.

I would really agree. I remember the Pontiacs of the 1960's, 1970's, and 1980's as new cars.

A full Pontiac lineup would be great.

Chris :convertible:

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One of the problems is that Pontiac has been so many different things over the years, that if you try to make it more focused by eliminating product no inline with the brand strategy you'll end up pissing someone off.

I have a friend with a Torrent, and when I told him Pontiac wasn't going to do SUV's anymore he was seriously upset. There are people out there who genuinely love their Transsports, Montanas, and Azteks.