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V12 Coming..... Lutz says so....


Drew Dowdell

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Lutz confirms V12 in development for Cadillac flagship

It's official. It's been confirmed: Cadillac is preparing a new V12 flagship. That's straight from the mouth of our favorite man in the business, Bob Lutz. On a recent trip across the pond, GM's venerated product guru confirmed in an interview to the British car magazine AutoWeek that they are indeed working on a twelve-cylinder engine, slated to power a new range-topping, import-beating "Cadillac of Cadillacs," a super-luxury-sedan to rival the likes of the Mercedes S-Class and Lexus LS in the grandest of American style.

he new powerplant is being fabricated from two of GM's 3.6-liter 60-degree V6 engines mounted on a common crankshaft. Far from relying solely on cylinder count, sources speculate the engine will also benefit from such features as direct injection and cylinder deactivation, resulting in a 7.2-liter V12 with somewhere in the neighborhood of 600 horsepower and 540 lb-ft of torque.

Edited by Oldsmoboi
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So they approved it. Too bad it won't be here until late 2010 at the earliest.

The engine sounds ok, I guess. Not very unique really, but if they can make it world-class then I have no problem with it just being two HF V6s joined together. Perhaps the UV8 is a HF V8?

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Okay... this is good news.

How big is this car going to be?

If this happens as they say it will, that will:

Keep the DTS where it is as the traditional Cadillac for older buyers and Cadillac/fullsized GM loyalists.

Put the STS in question or out to pasture.

You will have BLS: small Cadillac( not for North America)

CTS: 5 series/E Class fighter

DTS: Traditional Cadillac

FTS: the super Cadillac ( FTS )( Fleetwood was the longest and biggest Cadillac for years)

Either that car will become STS or carry a new name.

A short wheelbase 7 Series and Lexus LS is 196-198 inches long.

A long wheelbase is 201-203 inches long.

The current STS is a 196 inches long.

Cadillac China is selling a long wheelbase SLS.

The Buick fullsized range gets interesting. Lucerne switches over to rear drive with DTS. Buick in China has a different rear drive car using the Park Avenue name.

This is getting confusing. Too many possibilities.

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This is getting confusing. Too many possibilities.

Part of why it is confusing is because Caddy is the only American luxury brand left (That's right, Lincoln is not luxury). And, part of the American brand persona is having big cars, bigger than your competitors. So don't compare size, compare everything else and you get something like:

CTS=3 Series=A4=IS/ES=C-Class - $30K-$50K

STS=5 Series=A6=GS=E-Class - $40K-$70/80K

DTS=Nothing else like it in a lux brand (It's like the Town Car, but like I said, Lincoln isn't luxury) - $40K-$50K

FTS/ULS/XTS=7 Series=A8=LS=S-Class - $80K - $120K

So in this progression upward, the DTS is sort of off to the side, they can't jump from the CTS to the FTS/ULS/XTS whatever they'll call it, which is why the STS is still necessary.

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Part of why it is confusing is because Caddy is the only American luxury brand left (That's right, Lincoln is not luxury). And, part of the American brand persona is having big cars, bigger than your competitors. So don't compare size, compare everything else and you get something like:

CTS=3 Series=A4=IS/ES=C-Class - $30K-$50K

STS=5 Series=A6=GS=E-Class - $40K-$70/80K

DTS=Nothing else like it in a lux brand (It's like the Town Car, but like I said, Lincoln isn't luxury) - $40K-$50K

FTS/ULS/XTS=7 Series=A8=LS=S-Class - $80K - $120K

So in this progression upward, the DTS is sort of off to the side, they can't jump from the CTS to the FTS/ULS/XTS whatever they'll call it, which is why the STS is still necessary.

I could not agree with you more. People simply cannot perceive CTS as a 5 series fighter, just because it has the size. It does not have a V-8 as a high end version to compete with the bread and butter Mercedes and BMW V-8's in that class. The V is coming no doubt but it will be congruous to the M-3 and C-63 not the E-550 and 550i. Car magazines are still comparing it with the 3 series and G-35, so it is hard to think we can call it a 5,E fighter.

STS does need to be there and also should have a more powerful version of the Northstar V-8 and also the 3.6DI V-6.

And Caddy needs to be unique to BMW and Lexus and MB and Audi, by offering a DTS, hell 70K of annual sales for a FWD is not a bad idea, just put it on a modified EP-II and we have a cash cow.

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STS is dead, DTS will likely slot in above the CTS with the ULS above the DTS (I suppose the DTS could be dead and they could use the STS name). I could see the Alpha Cadillac slot below the CTS too, in the $29-40k range with CTS in the $35-45k range, DTS/STS $45-65k and ULS $70k-100k.

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STS is dead, DTS will likely slot in above the CTS with the ULS above the DTS (I suppose the DTS could be dead and they could use the STS name). I could see the Alpha Cadillac slot below the CTS too, in the $29-40k range with CTS in the $35-45k range, DTS/STS $45-65k and ULS $70k-100k.

Can you really see them retiring the Sigma platform this soon while keeping the G-body DTS around? If what you say is right, the CTS will be the only vehicle left on Sigma and that's a LOT of development dollars and factory dollars to just have one car on.

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I could not agree with you more. People simply cannot perceive CTS as a 5 series fighter, just because it has the size. It does not have a V-8 as a high end version to compete with the bread and butter Mercedes and BMW V-8's in that class. The V is coming no doubt but it will be congruous to the M-3 and C-63 not the E-550 and 550i. Car magazines are still comparing it with the 3 series and G-35, so it is hard to think we can call it a 5,E fighter.

STS does need to be there and also should have a more powerful version of the Northstar V-8 and also the 3.6DI V-6.

And Caddy needs to be unique to BMW and Lexus and MB and Audi, by offering a DTS, hell 70K of annual sales for a FWD is not a bad idea, just put it on a modified EP-II and we have a cash cow.

Finally someone had my idea and said better.

I'm not too sure that the EP-2 can be streched to fit the dts. If the ULS/FTS/V12 is going to look like the 2004 cadillac sixteen concept, and the ng dts will be produce at the same time, how would it look like? Is it going to be like the 1995 deville/ fleetwood, just strech the wheelbase and change the front and back a little bit?

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Finally someone had my idea and said better.

I'm not too sure that the EP-2 can be streched to fit the dts. If the ULS/FTS/V12 is going to look like the 2004 cadillac sixteen concept, and the ng dts will be produce at the same time, how would it look like? Is it going to be like the 1995 deville/ fleetwood, just strech the wheelbase and change the front and back a little bit?

If the DTS is on Zeta and the ULS is on Sigma, which was the plan at one point (I don't know about now), then the ULS won't be a streched DTS.

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I think it's quite possible that after the new CTS is done it will move to Zeta. Or, the ULS could go on Sigma, which was the plan before approval, but I don't know if it was altered when approved or not.

I hope that the new "technological marval" plant they built for Sigma can be used for Zeta then.... they spent a LOT of money on that new plant.

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I hope that the new "technological marval" plant they built for Sigma can be used for Zeta then.... they spent a LOT of money on that new plant.

I'm sure it can be converted. They aren't just going to let LGR die when it is one of, if not their most advanced plant.

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Very telling statement from AutoNews:

At this stage, it is unknown whether GM plans to base the upmarket Cadillac on the same platform, but given the need to spread the cost of rear-wheel-drive development over as many models as possible, such a move cannot be ruled out.

In order to make that car, some other GM division has to get it.. Spread the costs.

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The way it looks like, GM may end up with three or four RWD car platforms.

1. Zeta

2. Sigma

3. Alpha (Or whatever the proposed small one is called)

4. Solstice Platform

Zeta will be the main platform as comparable to our dear ol' W-bodies with lots of vehicles on it.

Sigma may occupy the niche. CTS, STS, may be one or two Caddy Crossovers, and some other niche cars.

Alpha may be the smaller Zeta.

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STS is dead, DTS will likely slot in above the CTS with the ULS above the DTS (I suppose the DTS could be dead and they could use the STS name). I could see the Alpha Cadillac slot below the CTS too, in the $29-40k range with CTS in the $35-45k range, DTS/STS $45-65k and ULS $70k-100k.

Do you have good information about the STS dying, because I just can't see that happening.

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resulting in a 7.2-liter V12

I read the article, and I'd like to commment on something: the V6 comes in 2.8L and 3.6L versions (excluding the 3.2L version sold to Alfa Romeo). Pairing each of these versions would yield something from 5.6L to 7.2L (with a mid-point of 6.4L). Maybe what they mean is that they're using the HFV6 as the basis for developing the engine? I think 7.2L is a little excessive and I'd see GM aligning the engine's displacement with the competition, much like what happened to the 2.8L and 3.6L V6's.

A 6.4L engine could be strong enough for some form of turbo-/supercharging like Mercedes does with AMG models, no?

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Do you have good information about the STS dying, because I just can't see that happening.

Yes. An STS-like car is not necessarily dead, as that is what it sounds like the NG DTS may be, but it appears that the STS name may be dead (either "DTS" or "STS" is dead, however the car replacing both seems more like the current STS than current DTS seeing as how it is Zeta based and will likely have something bigger than it above it, meaning it won't be as big as the current DTS, most likely).

I read the article, and I'd like to commment on something: the V6 comes in 2.8L and 3.6L versions (excluding the 3.2L version sold to Alfa Romeo). Pairing each of these versions would yield something from 5.6L to 7.2L (with a mid-point of 6.4L). Maybe what they mean is that they're using the HFV6 as the basis for developing the engine? I think 7.2L is a little excessive and I'd see GM aligning the engine's displacement with the competition, much like what happened to the 2.8L and 3.6L V6's.

A 6.4L engine could be strong enough for some form of turbo-/supercharging like Mercedes does with AMG models, no?

This is an interesting thought. It is quite possible that the V12 could be two 3.2s paired together to make a 6.4L.

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from the article at autoblog, the idea sounds exciting, a truly large and substantial sedan to compete with the S-class with some innovative gorgeous Cadillac style and all the technology and features needed to compete with those kinds of cars. I don't even care if it's based on Zeta, as long as that platform allows for some truly great dynamics to rival the best in class, or beat them.

I still argue that Cadillac needs to figure out what to do about an entry level car, because the CTS is too large to truly compete with the 3-series, C-class, IS350, A4, etc. An intermediary car above the CTS but below the S-class competitor in the position of the current STS/DTS would also be a requirement. A 4 car luxury lineup works for Lexus, very well, it can work for Caddy too.

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V12 is good enough. I don't think we'll see a V16 vehicle on our roads before the decade is out.. but don't think the luxury automakers aren't already developing their own.

What Cadillac has to worry about is styling, luxury, technological goodies. They need to throw as much as they can into this baby in order to meet the needs of this class of buyer. It may sound over-the-top, but that's what GM needs to do to make this car a real player.

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