[Northstar]

Let's just look at some of the information recently announced:

* Kappa moves to Bowling Green in 2011 (the plant will have 4+ products instead of 2 like at Wilmington)

I don't think that is true... do you have a link? The union contract says the Kappas stay in Wilmington until 2012. I also have another source of info that, while not as recent, says the NG Kappas are to be built at Wilmington.

* No confirmation that G8 manufacturing will be moved to the US

Not according to CD, and PCS confirmed it later in the thread.

The G8 will be built in NA in the not too distant future.

(From HERE)

* Alpha will be going to Chevrolet, not Pontiac...

I emailed Lutz about it, here is what he said (hopefully he does not care, he didn't care another time someone posted something he emailed them):

"Totally untrue. Don't believe everything you read on the internet! Valuable advice! Even in politics...or esecially!"

Everyone needs to keep in mind that this is from MT. I think that's a HUGE factor. I do think that it is quite possible Chevy is getting one, but for markets other than the US. The Pontiac could very well be done like the G8 -- the Chevy will a different front end and perhaps rear fascia.

* Buick to have more models added (stated by Lutz)

I can see this being interpreted two ways, but I would definitely still be surprised if Buick didn't get more than 3 models. What I was saying about interpreted two ways is this: The NG Lucerne wasn't too far along, and perhaps the Enclave's success made it a definite go when it was possibly on the "It's time to either kill or green light this project." "Adding models" could mean deciding to give one the go rather than the ax. It's also possible they'll bring the Delta Buick here, though I haven't seen anything solid about that. Perhaps a Zeta coupe could also get the go and/or a Statesman model above the NG Lucerne. Perhaps a TE too. Again, we haven't had anything solid on anything of those, but I wouldn't be surprised if 2 of them (or perhaps more) were approved.

* GMC gets TE SUV

Torrent should have never been a Pontiac, this is a good move. Pontiac is getting the UTE and wagon G8 for cargo-moving capabilities instead.

* Pontiac getting Vibe from NUMMI

What is wrong with this? The Vibe has always come from NUMMI.

* Union Contract negotiations... any Pontiac product included in the commitment? No. What we got:
Pontiac G6 continues through 2013.

The Solstice also has "continues until 2012." The Alpha vehicle is also on there, though I happen to think that is the BTS or whatever it is called. It corresponds with the end of production for the current BTS more or less. It does say 2 styles, however. This could mean a sedan and coupe or wagon, etc., or it could mean 2 different brands. Note that the document says LGR gets two Zeta styles, and I'm 99% sure those are the DTS/STS replacement and the NG Lucerne.

----------------------

Again, for everyone to see, here is Lutz's quote about the MT article:

"Totally untrue. Don't believe everything you read on the internet! Valuable advice! Even in politics...or esecially!"

Take it for what it's worth. Also please realize where the info is coming from in the first place, Motor Trash.

[NOS2006]

Why would GM kill Pontiac(the cars only division) when it is paired with GMC(the trucks only division) and keep Buick(cars and trucks)? It doesn't make any sense. Pontiac sold 24,xxx cars, Chevy sold 50,xxx cars, and Buick sells less than 10,000 cars.

Why wouldn't they kill Pontiac? I mean, there's probably a nice list of pros and cons. Pontiac may sell 24,xxx/year, but if GM can re-allocate the number of Pontiacs sold to other brands (i.e. G6 buyers get a Malibu, G8 buyers get an Impala, etc.) they wouldn't have to design or engineer those Pontiac cars, cutting cost there, and would be able to use that money to improve the vehicles in the other brands.

[Cubical-aka-Moltar]

Why wouldn't they kill Pontiac? I mean, there's probably a nice list of pros and cons. Pontiac may sell 24,xxx/year, but if GM can re-allocate the number of Pontiacs sold to other brands (i.e. G6 buyers get a Malibu, G8 buyers get an Impala, etc.) they wouldn't have to design or engineer those Pontiac cars, cutting cost there, and would be able to use that money to improve the vehicles in the other brands.

And Buick has some international marketshare (China, Middle East) while Pontiac is NA only... it seems the most obvious of GM's brands to cut, unfortunately..

FYI: 2006 (US? NA?) sales #s:

Buick: 240k
Chevy: 2.4M
GMC: 480k
Pontiac: 410k

This post has been edited by moltar: 03 December 2007 - 10:38 PM

[Camino LS6]

Most obvious?

I think not.

Let's not forget Saab.

Pontiac is GM's best opportunity to really shine with a new and interesting lineup. Right now it really is a clean slate.

[Cubical-aka-Moltar]

Most obvious?

I think not.

Let's not forget Saab.

Pontiac is GM's best opportunity to really shine with a new and interesting lineup. Right now it really is a clean slate.

Saab's sales are small in the US, but they still have a European market presence. Pontiac is only in NA....

[ToniCipriani]

Saab's sales are small in the US, but they still have a European market presence. Pontiac is only in NA....

Then you should say kill Vauxhall. It's UK only. Or Holden. It's Australasia only. Or Opel. It's Europe Only.

Only in NA doesn't merit it to be killed. Yes, GMNA right now is the weakest of them, but as Camino was saying, Pontiac has the most potential now.

[Cubical-aka-Moltar]

Then you should say kill Vauxhall. It's UK only. Or Holden. It's Australasia only. Or Opel. It's Europe Only.

Only in NA doesn't merit it to be killed. Yes, GMNA right now is the weakest of them, but as Camino was saying, Pontiac has the most potential now.

Invalid reasoning. Opel's in 30+ countries...Pontiac's in 3...

I think Pontiac has a lot of potential and I'd love to see them revived...but I think GM would terminate the brand in a heartbeat if they thought they couldn't make a sufficient ROI on it.

This post has been edited by moltar: 03 December 2007 - 10:52 PM

[Camino LS6]

I still believe killing any brand would be a grave error.

Especially now.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Invalid reasoning. Opel's in 30+ countries...Pontiac's in 3...

I think Pontiac has a lot of potential and I'd love to see them revived...but I think GM would terminate the brand in a heartbeat if they thought they couldn't make a sufficient ROI on it.

The US has sales equivalent to 30+ countries. Shouldn't that count for something?

[balthazar]

>>"Pontiac has the most potential now."<<
Have to agree vs. the others mentioned above; saab is crippled by a rigid heritage that does not allow 'reinventing' the brand without angering all 200 loyal buyers worldwide. Pontiac sells nearly 4 times saab's volume based on the '04 # above yet has a progressive-enough history that they are not locked into design reguritation for 25 years. Saab will never be any more than it is right now, only way it can go is down.

>>"FYI: 2006 (US? NA?) sales #s: GMC: 480k"<<

This must be a partial year figure (thru October??); in 2004 GMC sold 598K. I don't recall anything that could be responsible for a 100K loss...

[Cubical-aka-Moltar]

>>"Pontiac has the most potential now."<<
Have to agree vs. the others mentioned above; saab is crippled by a rigid heritage that does not allow 'reinventing' the brand without angering all 200 loyal buyers worldwide. Pontiac sells nearly 4 times saab's volume based on the '04 # above yet has a progressive-enough history that they are not locked into design reguritation for 25 years. Saab will never be any more than it is right now, only way it can go is down.

>>"FYI: 2006 (US? NA?) sales #s: GMC: 480k"<<

This must be a partial year figure (thru October??); in 2004 GMC sold 598K. I don't recall anything that could be responsible for a 100K loss...

Those were year-to-date numbers for Jan-Dec 06, so probably CY numbers instead of MY numbers (which would extend from fall 05 into 07)...

This post has been edited by moltar: 03 December 2007 - 11:08 PM

[SuperSport623]

well northstar emailed lutz about it.. i understand if lutz declined comment, but he outright said its untrue... i think MT is just in the wrong..

[Cubical-aka-Moltar]

well northstar emailed lutz about it.. i understand if lutz declined comment, but he outright said its untrue... i think MT is just in the wrong..

Could be... MT is not an authoritative source of rumors..

[Oldsmoboi]

OMG PONTIAC IS TEH SHELVED@@!@!@@!!!!!

[VenSeattle]

I don't think that is true... do you have a link? The union contract says the Kappas stay in Wilmington until 2012. I also have another source of info that, while not as recent, says the NG Kappas are to be built at Wilmington.

http://www.cheersand...l=Bowling+Green

As for NUMMI - Vibe can be dropped, Matrix etc can replace production if GM ends the joint venture. Or, it could just become a Chevrolet product... again. Simple.

As for the Union agreement - G6 went out the furthest (2013) for commitment to build a Pontiac, which is why it was quoted.

As for G8 production... Make up your mind... is PCS a reliable source or not.

[ToniCipriani]

OMG PONTIAC IS TEH SHELVED@@!@!@@!!!!!

Classic.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If this is true, then GM is the same old ignorant sloth that it always has been...

So much potential wasted.

If they phase out yet another perfectly healthy division, then count me in as a Ford fan instead of a GM fan.

[Camino LS6]

http://www.cheersand...l=Bowling+Green

As for NUMMI - Vibe can be dropped, Matrix etc can replace production if GM ends the joint venture. Or, it could just become a Chevrolet product... again. Simple.

As for the Union agreement - G6 went out the furthest (2013) for commitment to build a Pontiac, which is why it was quoted.

As for G8 production... Make up your mind... is PCS a reliable source or not.

NUMMI needs to come to an end as does the Vibe.

G8 is in production, and it seems, will add at least one or two variants. If PCS sees a future for the G8 beyond Holden-produced cars considering his opinion of the car and CD is confident of it enough to state it as fact, and the pure logic of it makes sense - well, if you do the math...

Add in the fact that Lutz has called BS on the Alpha story and I am feeling much better than when I read the headline a few hours back.

I'm also adding another mental note to MT's BS file.

[Cubical-aka-Moltar]

As for G8 production... Make up your mind... is PCS a reliable source or not.

I'd say PCS plants disinformation and derives twisted pleasure from watching our reactions to his posts.