GM News: Unifor Drops Some Print Ads on GM's Doorstep

[William Maley]

General Motors got a rude awakening if they picked up a copy of the Detroit Free Press or Detroit News. Right on the front page is a large ad by Canadian union Unifor accusing GM executives of having the lack of support toward Canadian and U.S. plant workers after announcing certain products would be "unallocated" and bringing up the possible worry of plant closures.

One ad says, "U.S. and Canadian workers made GM," that follows with the question, "Why should our jobs and our products go to Mexico? Keep our plants open."

Automotive News notes that the ads weren't in any Candian papers. The most likely reason for that is that Unifor officials would be meeting with GM today at the Renaissance Center.

“GM needs to know that we are not accepting their announcement. It is crystal clear to myself and the leadership of the union that GM is leaving Canada. The newspaper ads are to let them know we are dead serious,” said Unifor president Jerry Dias.

Dias said the ads are to show GM that it will have “a real problem” selling new vehicles to consumers on either side of the border starting next year.

“GM has betrayed consumers in Canada and the United States. People are finally saying to GM, ‘You have gone too far.’ This is going on on both sides of the border,” he said.

GM in an emailed statement to Automotive News said, "The GM restructuring decisions are extremely difficult for all of us in Oshawa, but we believe the best approach is to work together to support our employees including support for local training and transition initiatives in the Durham Region. We remain strongly committed to Canada and will continue to engage in dialogue with Unifor."

GM also confirmed the meeting with Unifor but declined to provide any details about it.

Kristin Dziczek, vice president of Industry, Labor & Economics at the Center for Automotive Research said Unifor faces an uphill battle with GM as their negotiations don't till 2020, a year after the UAW does theirs.

"The UAW is going to go after any new product allocations for their two plants that are set to close and others that are underutilized," she said.

"If there's product to be got, the UAW is going to go after it first."

Dziczek also notes that Unifor's ads have "somewhat have a point" regarding GM's plants in Mexico, which are more utilized than many plants in Canada and the U.S.

"They have to look like they're fighting like mad, and there are lots of ways of doing that. This is one way."

We have a picture of the ad from the Detroit Free Press below if you're interested in what it looks like.

Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

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[A Horse With No Name]

Glad to see someone fighting back.

[Drew Dowdell]

Good!

[Suaviloquent]

Very well done. If GM workers can convince Americans and Canadians to boycott their product and forcing GM to hemmorage profits and recommit to local manufacturing...it would be one of the last hurrahs of labour conquering capital...damn if it’s Unionized they will want to burn GM down to the ground if nothing is done.

[riviera74]

It would be better if half the import buyers would buy GM products instead.  Last 40 years have been rather painful.

While I cannot blame Unifor for this publicity stunt, they would be better off getting their fellow Canadians to stop buying Japanese.

[Robert Hall]

Good to see workers fight back..don't know if it will be effective or not.   GM (and other manufacturers) would move all production to 3rd world cheap labor locations if they could get away with it, they have no interest in local manufacturing, they just want to churn out product as fast and cheaply as possible. They couldn't care less about the workers; only the profits for the shareholders and bonuses for incompetent, corrupt executives. 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Robert Hall

[balthazar]

^ Look at all the German & Japanese plants here- those jobs could've gone to citizens where the respective HQs are.

They couldn't care less about the workers; only the profits for the shareholders and bonuses for incompetent, corrupt executives.

[A Horse With No Name]

15 minutes ago, balthazar said:

^ Look at all the German & Japanese plants here- those jobs could've gone to citizens where the respective HQs are.

They couldn't care less about the workers; only the profits for the shareholders and bonuses for incompetent, corrupt executives.

So why can BMW and Honda build here at a profit and GM and Ford cannot?

Also....think of the cool stuff we would be getting it people were more behind U.S. auto makers. Hummer would still be in production...we would be getting the next gen Focus...perhaps a truly hot Taurus SHO.

F

As it is Malibu will sort of be last man standing for domestic passenger cars that are just regular automobiles.

[Robert Hall]

24 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

So why can BMW and Honda build here at a profit and GM and Ford cannot?

 

Non-union plants?  I don't know how much of a labor cost difference there is, but there must be some difference. 

[balthazar]

We're still assuming the supposed cancelled vehicles were all unprofitable. And that other brand's vehicles in production are profitable.

GM's pre-tax income in 2017 was just under $12 billion, but 'extraodinaries' resulted in a 3.8B loss last year. The 2 years before that GM's net income was in the $9-10B range.

Edited December 21, 2018 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

It would be better if half the import buyers would buy GM products instead.  Last 40 years have been rather painful.

While I cannot blame Unifor for this publicity stunt, they would be better off getting their fellow Canadians to stop buying Japanese.

I sympathize with this...

Yet...the North American market is in fact a free market system.

The North American way does not allow for monopolies...(lets leave the obvious exceptions as this discussion will go in another direction. Lets just keep it simple and talk about in theory...)

The North American people want and demand choice...

Let us be honest...General Motors, Ford and Chryco really did take advantage of the North American people. Let us be honest. The Big 3 over the century of building cars really did some serious backstabbing to their own, really cheated the masses with piss poor quality products, let their dealership network become stealerships, screw over their workers...even Henry Ford who was once a God for his workers ended up being a Devil...

Over a century of this. And especially building crap cars in the mid 1970s all the way to, let us be honest...up until 2008...(There was never a good reason for the Northstar V8 to be have been finally fixed of its problems in the mid 2000s when they GM knew what the problems were in the mid 1990s. GM could blame the consumer for crappy servicing, but ultimately, GM knew better...

And that is just with one problem of many.  In another thread, the one where I went bat shyte crazy, there was talk about GM's screwey key ignition problems.  

Yes. Yes. Foreign manufacturers have done the same.

Hyundai...that thread is about Hyundais...

What I find deplorable though, is that the foreign makes also have built crap. In their home markets too. But those folk are proud of their industry as where Americans lost that pride. (Canadians too lost that pride for American cars). What I find deplorable is that Americans continue to self hate...

BUT I DO NOT BLAME THEM!!!

So...we find our situation that we are in....but make no mistake about it. GM did that to themselves...

About closing down these 5 North American plants.  This is more of a middle finger salute to Donald Trump than it is to American and Canadian workers. But its these 18 000 workers that ultimately get it up the ass...

The next step is this: Do we stop buying GM vehicles completely? 

Tough call...maybe not a good choice. 

So how does GM convince the American and Canadian buying public that GM cares?  How does GM mend the pain of building shytyy cars in the past and how does GM build cars in North America without screwing its worker while making profits...

Mexico...you know, its close to slave labour...how does a politician and a CEO take care of that problem without having to have factories in the US leave for Mexico all in the while a politician trying to balance trade equality and wanting the best for its workers and its own factories and its own industry? 

Alls I could tell you is good luck in convincing the person who bought 3 Toyota Corollas or 3 Honda Civics in his lifetime, and those Japanese imports did succeed in getting 300 000 reliable miles to buy an American Ford Tempo or Chevy Citation or Pontiac Grand Prix DOHC 3.4 with head gasket problems or transmission failures that their neighbors always bitched about...or my wife's Fusion getting yet another recall on it...I got this new recall in the fall.  Sure Ford will fix it, free, but this is how Ford loses money on  the Fusion. 

And if this was before 2009, I would be left with the repair bill to fix it. So...the Big 3 CONTINUE to phoque around with reliability...

I know I know....Honda and Toyota also have recalls and their reliability is also questionable. 

But...you cannot deny that a Civic or Corolla, perception or otherwise, common knowledge or myth, a Honda Civic and a Toyota Corolla are built like tanks and will never let down their owners...

Try saying that about a domestic car (not truck) and see who DOESNT laugh at you...

Edited December 20, 2018 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

I, for one, ABSOLUTELY can deny that a civi-rolla is "built like a tank"- they're cheap, plasticy, disposable appliances.
And there's no myth about toyota recalling 50 million plus vehicles over the last 15 years for horrendously bad engineering. The frame rot fiasco is a personal fave I can't get past- that was a 1910-level mistake... but in 2010.

We could examine how shitty japanese cars from the '70s ALSO were if the tin worm hadn't eat them all into rust flakes.

[oldshurst442]

2 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I, for one, ABSOLUTELY can deny that a civi-rolla is "built like a tank"- they're cheap, plasticy, disposable appliances.
And there's no myth about toyota recalling 50 million plus vehicles over the last 15 years for horrendously bad engineering. The frame rot fiasco is a personal fave I can't get past- that was a 1910-level mistake... but in 2010.

We could examine how $h!ty japanese cars from the '70s ALSO were if the tin worm hadn't eat them all into rust flakes.

You could deny all you want...(and if you read my post correctly, Im in agreement with you) but it still does not change the fact that Americans PERCEIVE...scratch that...the WHOLE planet...PERCEIVES that American cars are garbage...

This perception has festered itself in the 1980s...and never really went away. To. This. Day. 

 

 

 

 

[riviera74]

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

Non-union plants?  I don't know how much of a labor cost difference there is, but there must be some difference. 

If within the same area as a union plant (say, a Honda plant in Ohio), a non-union plant is usually $3-5/hr cheaper than a typical UAW union plant.  If there are no union plants (e.g most of the South), it is often half to two-thirds the wages of a union plant.

[balthazar]

22 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

You could deny all you want...(and if you read my post correctly, Im in agreement with you) but it still does not change the fact that Americans PERCEIVE...scratch that...the WHOLE planet...PERCEIVES that American cars are garbage...

This perception has festered itself in the 1980s...and never really went away. To. This. Day.

Yeah, sorry; no way are we in agreement with that impossible statement.

Edited December 21, 2018 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Yeah, sorry; no way are we in agreement with that impossible statement.

You live in a fantasy world, Balthy...

A little pop culture for you...from 1984. A comedy. But the sentiment is there...

 

And if you do not think people in America, or the whole world does not view American cars as garbage...well...like I said...you may be living in a bubble...

Edited December 21, 2018 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

What is your source for an all-encompassing 'world opinion', please.

[David]

Blue Collar scare tactics as the Union Bosses are worried about loosing their cushy paid jobs for minimal benefits by not having union members to pay them for pathetic labor negotiations.

I support GM on this!

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

If within the same area as a union plant (say, a Honda plant in Ohio), a non-union plant is usually $3-5/hr cheaper than a typical UAW union plant.  If there are no union plants (e.g most of the South), it is often half to two-thirds the wages of a union plant.

Please post facts on this as I have not seen that the non-union plants are that far underpaid.

From stories I find, the non-Union plants mostly pay more than the UAW.

https://www.autoblog.com/2015/03/29/foreign-domestic-automakers-wage-gap/

Seems in this story, Toyota pays their non-Union workers more than the average GM union worker.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-true-price-of-auto-labor-costs/

I see NO VALUE from the Unions today.

[oldshurst442]

56 minutes ago, balthazar said:

What is your source for an all-encompassing 'world opinion', please.

Stop with the semantic bullsit arguments...but Ill give you one. 

But you could start with looking what sedans are no.1 in sales in the US market....

 

As far as my world opinion goes...

I went to Greece in 2001. Talked to many local yokels about cars...saw many tourists from around the world...with a couple of them, we engaged in world politics and...cars...

Went to Greece in 2003. Same thing.

Went to Greece 15 years later...same thing...

And you know what? 

American automobiles with several people, in Greece, from Greece, Italy, France, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Egypt, Germany., England..did not have nice things to say about American cars...in 2001, in 2003 and 15 years later in 2018

Yes. A small sample size. A very small sample size. From people that never really saw an American automobile in their lives....not even as a Hot Wheels model. 

But...still does not change the fact that people just do not like American cars and they think that they are garbage.

Save for the Mustang, Corvette and old skool Cadillacs And to some, even the Mustang, Corvette and old skool Cadillacs are garbage as well...

Its OK if you do not believe me. I aint here trying to convince you otherwise either.  I do not really care.  

And I really do think the Japanese  cars in the 1960s and 1970s were the worst crap ever. American cars get shat on for far less than  what German cars were. But it is what it is...

And here you are...arguing with me, yet Cadillac is killing off their halo car/not their halo car, but just you wait and see what we got in store for you for this non-halo car and they are killing it just after 2 or 3 years on the market...because yeah...Americans just loooooove American cars...

After 3 decades of Cadillac promising us a halo sedan to compete with the Germans...after billions spent...from the Cadillac that Zigs to Arts and Science to Johan...because...all because you want to discredit me and you dont wanna believe that Americans and the whole world just thinks that American cars suck...(with the exemption of the Chinese...)     

So yeah...you got me...not the whole planet...1.386 billion Chinese think that American cars arwe OK.  7.7 billion people on the planet....that would be 20-25%% of the world that think that American cars are OK...so yeah...you got me there!!!

Edited December 21, 2018 by oldshurst442

[daves87rs]

I love this.....this is what happens when you try to go cheap...and it will burn. GM seems to forget who makes the quality product. Coming from a UAW family-this hits home with me. IF they try to make this about the money, it will cost them more than sales...

This is not rocket science folks. Cruze sales down? How about sending the Cruze to Mexico and bring the hot selling Equinox here? Bolt would do just fine in D Ham. Couldn’t hurt to build some trucks at Oshawa..... I know how automotive works-and what can and should be done. Would be nice to keep those loyal GM buying workers/family buying....don’t play us dumb, GM.

I am but maybe a week or two from getting a GM product. I want to see how this plays out....could be a mind changer.

I want to have passion in my product-or it is simply not worth it. If I just want another CUV, heck, I cold just buy a Kia.

It just seems GM wants to play stupid at least once a decade.......

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Stop with the semantic bullsit arguments...

If you use absolute, over-the-top terms, expect to see them challenged now & again. You cannot support your contention factually, and your sample size precludes you from objectively supporting it even anecdotally. Why bother to chose those terms, then?

GM (and Ford) have publicly recognized the very real decline of passenger sedan volume. But people seem to think it's ONLY happening at GM & FoMoCo. Look at the numbers; EVERYONE is down in sedans, a great portion in double digits. Some established nameplates have dropped so low it's amazing their plugs weren't pulled a few years back (vs. these GM implications a year or more in the future). Is it some great laudable accomplishment their sedans have dwindled to the point of building what amounts to 4 cars per DAY but they're still here anyway? How so?

I can certainly accept the market share plot line over time, but General Motors is still neck & neck with hyundai for 3rd largest OEM worldwide, and miles ahead of such competitors as honda, nissan, daimler, BMW, Chrysler/fiat, renault, among others, despite losing over a half dozen brands. How is anyone supposed to agree with your portrayal based on such sales volume- it's certainly not price-driven given GM's ATP rise over the last decade (in fact, a charting of production volume coupled with ATP might be quite illuminating).

Further, the 1970s was a long long time ago, and recent quality assessments refute any 'garbage' claims as an outmoded holdover from that period (when everything was equally 'garbage'). We've gone from wildly different engineering, MPG, quality, amenities & tech differences, to screaming about grades of plastics.

Edited December 21, 2018 by balthazar

[Suaviloquent]

Honestly, I myself don’t really think of GM as an entry level car brand anymore either. I don’t desire their products being cancelled, and if I had the means right now then hell yes I’ll get a CT6. Even a 2.0T RWD, I don’t need the fancy Platinum. 

Even still my dream has always been to gift my dad brand new a Cadillac sedan one day. But that dream will not be fufilled if a few American workers...or an army of robots in America did not build it. That’s why I hate the idea of an imported Cadillac, any, even the basest off stripper fleet special in the home market because... it’s not popular here... because it hasn’t earned the market’s respect for it... so they won’t build it here. GM was right to cancel the plug-in, but the entire line? Damn.

As a millennial, living in the city, right now having my first real salaried and managerial entry for my career (before being 24 yrs old woot!) I see GM and just look the other way. But that’s the same way with all cars. I still drive... I irrationally desire a Tesla, only because they’re a small player and out of spite I want a different brand that starts with T to topple Toyota....

People still desire cars irrationally - Cadillac cause my dad ingrained his aspiration into me that became my aspiration. Tesla because they’re just making such a different proposition, that every other car will try to be just like ours eventually....

Then their wife and kids bring their objectivity and thirst for practically to you and you get a crossover instead. The end. 

 

 

 

 

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

If you use absolute, over-the-top terms, expect to see them challenged now & again. You cannot support your contention factually, and your sample size precludes you from objectively supporting it even anecdotally. Why bother to chose those terms, then?

GM (and Ford) have publicly recognized the very real decline of passenger sedan volume. But people seem to think it's ONLY happening at GM & FoMoCo. Look at the numbers; EVERYONE is down in sedans, a great portion in double digits. Some established nameplates have dropped so low it's amazing their plugs weren't pulled a few years back (vs. these GM implications a year or more in the future). Is it some great laudable accomplishment their sedans have dwindled to the point of building what amounts to 4 cars per DAY but they're still here anyway? How so?

I can certainly accept the market share plot line over time, but General Motors is still neck & neck with hyundai for 3rd largest OEM worldwide, and miles ahead of such competitors as honda, nissan, daimler, BMW, Chrysler/fiat, renault, among others, despite losing over a half dozen brands. How is anyone supposed to agree with your portrayal based on such sales volume- it's certainly not price-driven given GM's ATP rise over the last decade (in fact, a charting of production volume coupled with ATP might be quite illuminating).

Further, the 1970s was a long long time ago, and recent quality assessments refute any 'garbage' claims as an outmoded holdover from that period (when everything was equally 'garbage'). We've gone from wildly different engineering, MPG, quality, amenities & tech differences, to screaming about grades of plastics.

We are in an automotive forum...

Not a courtroom...anything said in here is over the top and anecdotal...so please spare me the semantic arguments...

Declining market share proves my over the top statements.

Anecdotal discussions are part of automotive forums...and they are real...they reflect kinda how society flows.

isnt that how Donald Trump got elected? By him saying over the top things by him even using anecdotal slogans?

And YES...I AGREE WITH YOU!!! 

Quote

the 1970s was a long long time ago, and recent quality assessments refute any 'garbage' claims as an outmoded holdover from that period (when everything was equally 'garbage')

I said that...but you have a hard time understanding  what PERCEIVED  means...

And yes...the 1970s was such a long time age, yet Cadillac has not shed the negative stigma surrounding its cars...Lincoln neither.

Their SUVs sell, but people will not touch their cars...

"Nobody" buys their cars...(absolute statement)

But the thing is, CT6 sales are low, that GM is canceling it...to boot, the Continental is going away too...

Yet you would prefer to challenge me on the "nobody buys the CT6" statement because there has been people to buy the phoquiking thing, yet you glaze over the reality of said absolute statement.  An over the top statement that deals in an absolute, even if its not 100% accurate, does not make it a false statement...

Go ahead...challenge me on the "the whole planet, Americans included, think that American cars are garbage" and pat yourself on your back for finding just one soul that does not think that American cars are crap...making my statement false???  The reality of it all is that the Malibu is behind in sales from the Camry, Accord, Altima. I aint sure if the Sonata and Optima are behind it. 

The Cruze, the Focus, the Fiesta and the Spark are being canceled because the sales that Ford and GM wants from are not there. Yet the Corolla and Civic sell just fine in a world of CUV and SUV sales...

Yup...congrats to you for proving me wrong about my absolute statement. (SARCASM)

 

 

Edited December 21, 2018 by oldshurst442

[balthazar]

You should know me by now- I'm a facts-based guy. I read 'perceived' all the time- it's vapor. 'People' think toyootas are great, they're not; I dismiss the perception. 'People' think GM's are garbage, they're not; I dismiss the perception as a waste of time. People think all sorts of things all the time ---Oh no; a black cat!!--- people can (and should) do better.

I don't care how many CT6s Cadillac sells, it's not the point of the brand. If it's an excellent car befitting of it's position and it's profitable, they can sell 100/yr. Eldorados of the Golden Age sold in perilously low numbers.

So far, and in constricted language, the assembly plants in question are "unallocated" beyond 2019. I have read this is due to UAW agreement terms. But recall that the CTS jumped assembly plants (IIRC)- all the articles I saw were assuming the CT6 was being cancelled; what if it is getting moved instead? LGR is getting heavily retooled as we speak. We'll see what happens...

[Suaviloquent]

Well the whole issue is that GM isn’t saying what the implication of their recent 5 plant statement is. They appear as to be hiding the truth. And if they are going to produce any car still in America and do it because it’s profitable the market will call their bluff on the spot.

E.i. their car sales have declined partially due to poor feature content, the market demands higher cost on features and less on labour. That’s why import brands sell well there. Sedans as  whole are declining. It’s a segment people know now GM really has little interest in. A reversal would damage GM equally as much as leaving.

GM is in a position where they cannot be provided any incentive to build these products any more. Why should the employees dictate their product plans? Well, if GM sees that their viability in the U.S is in any way at risk because a large group of stakeholders, their employees are disloyal to the company, again, why would they allocate product?

Only an untenable situation like banning GM products wholesale and getting 100% American parts will keep production, but then the hammer has to hit every nail. You’d lose the next election cause the people want choice. And they’ve made their choice. Sedans are the ones to die. 

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Non-union plants?  I don't know how much of a labor cost difference there is, but there must be some difference. 

This is a little dated and not automotive specific but it's quite significant. 

https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf

[ccap41]

12 hours ago, dfelt said:

Blue Collar scare tactics as the Union Bosses are worried about loosing their cushy paid jobs for minimal benefits by not having union members to pay them for pathetic labor negotiations.

I support GM on this!

Please post facts on this as I have not seen that the non-union plants are that far underpaid.

From stories I find, the non-Union plants mostly pay more than the UAW.

https://www.autoblog.com/2015/03/29/foreign-domestic-automakers-wage-gap/

Seems in this story, Toyota pays their non-Union workers more than the average GM union worker.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-true-price-of-auto-labor-costs/

I see NO VALUE from the Unions today.

Modern unions are mostly trash. Overpaid for their work and god forbid they do more work than their very specific work title.. 

I had a buddy work for a union for a bit and he legitimately got written up for doing MORE work because it was somebody else's job(who wasn't there) and he just did it do get it done so work could continue to flow. They're fckn trash these days. The initial intent was great but they've turned into a joke. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

Damn I hate missing out on the start of these conversations.

Look! I get what the Unions are doing. Both the UAW and CAW want to retain their livelihood. Its an inevitable stance. Its a necessary stance. But it is a stance that each and every one of them should have thought about a decade or two ago.. when they saw and knew that the tide was turning and the non-unionized manufactures were muscling in on their customers as well as their jobs. U CANNOT HAVE BOTH! U can not lose your customers and still keep your jobs. U HAVE TO SELL YOUR PRODUCT JUST AS MUCH AS THE DEALERSHIPS!  Ironically they, say that they "Made GM" and that GM is betraying them.. but what about the betrayal to GM.. themselves when U look in each and everyone of their driveways.. their families' driveways.. their friends' driveways.. and see a fukkin Toyota, Honda etc?

Here's the deal.. Since emerging from Bankruptcy in 2010 GM has added about 29,000 employees, about 50% are salaried, the other half Hourly. GM currently has 50,000 salaried employees, and as of Jan '17 GM employed 97,000 total people in the U.S. Chrysler employs 56,900 and Ford employs 85,000. Honestly speaking, GM has too many employees considering their market share. In fact they have too many employees even if their market share was 5 points higher. Interesting fact, is that Toyota only has 30,000 US. employees. 

It has to occur to some one, some where that GM has been a welfare company for far too long. They employee way to many Americans who don't appreciate their employment status. All of them do not even support the company with a simply thing such as having an all GM new car driveway (not including hobbie classic cars from other manufacturers.) Imagine a situation where employees at Lordstown or Detroit-Ham actually actively recommended a Cruze, Volt, CT6, Lacrosse, Impala to their family and friends. How about the community and city of Detroit do the same? Why? Because supporting your plant meant supporting jobs, keeping jobs. Hypothetically John, who, along with his dad owns "Gios," the restaurant that serves DH employees daily, rolls up to the restaurant his new Avalon instead of an even Consumer Reports top pick, Impala. One sale lost, now two, now three. Detroit-Ham closes. Six months later, "Gio's" closes. Now John is making his car payments to Toyota Finance using unemployment money he gets fed. He's sour on GM for closing the plant. What if he had of just bought an Impala and spread the word that it is a great car? German employees know this. They support the hell out of their local plants even when their car is a piece of junk VW.

Moving on to what @oldshurst442 is saying about GM/Ford/Chry/ building junk during the 70s-80s-90s.. I call bull$h!. Junk compared to who? The Foreign makers were no better than the domestics during that time.. they simply were an alternative. Gas mileage? Yes in the 70s when the gas shortage occurred and their was a move to make vehicle more efficient, the domestics got blindsided. THE FOREIGN MAKERS WERE MORE EFFICIENT BY DEFAULT! Americans loved V8s.. almost every car U bought from the Domestics had a V8. Imagine the equivalent of the Cruze.. THE CRUZE.. the Chevy Monza being sold with a V8 under the hood. The Datsun B210 had a 65hp 1.4L with 65hp.. U are damn right it got better fuel economy. Yes U could get a Chevette (Acadian in Canada) with a similar engine to the Datsun's 1.4L and get the same fuel economy.. but AMERICANS bought V8s and V6s.. 4cylinders were looked down on.  Reliability? Another bull$h!t thing that was pushed up by the anti-domestic crew. There literally was a thing going around that all foreign cars were more reliable than domestics. Even if they weren't the perception was in place and it transferred to all of them whether they were or not. Datsun/Nissans were POSs. Peugeots were POSs. Alfa Romeos, Fiats, BMW, Audis, even the early Hondas and Toyota.. certainly Mazdas and Isuzus.. POSs. If it wasn't an issue with the powertrain it was an issue with the structural integrity of the bodies. Take a look outside next time U get up from your PC or phone. SERIOUSLY. HOW MANY CLASSIC FOREIGN CARS DO U REALLY SEE THAT WERE DAILY DRIVERS STILL RUNNING AROUND?  I can tell U I saw two 1984 Cavaliers the other day. I see Cadillacs that should have been retired or RESTORED 10 years ago still running around. Buicks LeSabres like the ones I know I got a ride to middle school in still rolling up the Blvd.. Shocks squeaking, trim hanging. But why not? They are going on 35 years old. That 1990 Honda Accord? Haven't seen one in 15 years. That Camry from 1992 that was the models first best selling model???? Haven't seen one in years. Damn sure still see Corsicas, f@#kkin Skylarks, and goofy ass Ford Escorts. Would U believe I saw a K-Car the other day? No Daihatsu, or Sterlings (or the Acura Legend it was based on) from 1990. Call them $h!ty if U like.. but I see Buick Reattas and Cadillac Allantes still cruising around, as well as Chevy Caprices, both the rounded ones and the boxy ones. THE PERCEPTION THAT FOREIGN WAS/IS BETTER WAS A BUNCH OF BULL$#!+!!!

Profitability

GM builds the Sonic profitable due to UAW concessions at the onset of the car's changeover from Aveo... GM was able to run the plant with 40 percent of the workers at a tier two wage, about half of the  $29 per hour that regular UAW workers make. Remember that car too tho, was up for death earlier this year but after it was realized that the Cruze was a better kill.. GM threw support behind keeping the more viable Sonic. (Again I believe that they should keep the Cruze name for the Sonic), not to mention the Sonic also shares its platform with the Trax and Encore, a car that quite frankly may have started the revolution of leaving small cars to get into a small CUV. 

In truth.. If Americans and Canadians want more GM vehicles built in America, say Detroit-Ham or Lordstown, they should have made certain that the vehicles built there were the number one vehicles you saw when you entered the area at least. People at Fairfax should be currently buying Malibus by the dozen. I mean that. The only thing one could perhaps cry about would be the lack of a V6, which is a ball drop on GM for not putting marketing in place to let it be known that the 2.0L was a viable and better alternative to the 3.6L, with more torque allowing for almost identical acceleration. The quality, content and styling of that vehicle in no way is inferior to a Camry or Accord, although I would say many nit-pick a GM product to the brink of it slitting its own risk versus a Asian or Euro product. By that I mean I have witnessed many giving a pass on the overall shoddy engineering of a Range Rover's powertrain, but hold it in higher regard over an Escalade due to CUE not having buttons. But that's the mentality of Americans/Canadians. The standard is so high, but the product must be so cheap for Domestic makers. 

There is an article over on, of all places, TRUTH ABOUT CARS, a publication that has historically hated GM while simultaneously boosting Toyota and the like.. The article (another one) essentially gives a glowing review of the CADILLAC CT6.. yet when U read some of the comments after the review.. trollish people are putting the car down for the most bullcrap reasons. Some actually admitting mistakenly I'm sure, that they had never even sat in one let alone driven one. Saying they would not pay $100K for the car, while at  the same time saying they would pay $100K for an Audi A8 or 7Series. I mean.. Do you really think a BMW 550 is worth $10,000 more than a CTS VSport? $35,000 Toyota Avalon worth more than the $28,000 Chevy Impala? Seriously I PRAY that someone is able to get thru to GM to keep production going on that car.. even if its moved to another plant. It is literally one of the beacons of drawing in conquest sales.. of course marketing would help. The link for the review is below.

CT6 Review from TTAC

 

Interesting .. Jalopnik broke this story yesterday..

VW GIVES AMERICAN THE MIDDLE FINGER..literally

 

Americans.. its how foreign automakers really feel about U and U continue to send them your money while shunning your own industry. Personally.. as I've said before.. GM, Ford, and even Chrysler should give all y'all the middle finger, pack up.. and take everyone if its almost 270K workers with them, pushing this country into an economic depression worst than 1929 ever did. 

 

[Robert Hall]

Not particularly a fan of unions, but I loathe management scum, tend to side w/ workers than the MBA shit-for-brains running things.   I prefer being an hourly independent consultant/hired gun.   

Edited December 21, 2018 by Robert Hall

[Cmicasa the Great]

This in no way, should be second to some damn fat nosed 7series

[ccap41]

25 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Look! I get what the Unions are doing. Both the UAW and CAW want to retain their livelihood. Its an inevitable stance. Its a necessary stance. But it is a stance that each and every one of them should have thought about a decade or two ago.. when they saw and knew that the tide was turning and the non-unionized manufactures were muscling in on their customers as well as their jobs. U CANNOT HAVE BOTH! U can not lose your customers and still keep your jobs. U HAVE TO SELL YOUR PRODUCT JUST AS MUCH AS THE DEALERSHIPS!  Ironically they, say that they "Made GM" and that GM is betraying them.. but what about the betrayal to GM.. themselves when U look in each and everyone of their driveways.. their families' driveways.. their friends' driveways.. and see a fukkin Toyota, Honda etc?

Here's the deal.. Since emerging from Bankruptcy in 2010 GM has added about 29,000 employees, about 50% are salaried, the other half Hourly. GM currently has 50,000 salaried employees, and as of Jan '17 GM employed 97,000 total people in the U.S. Chrysler employs 56,900 and Ford employs 85,000. Honestly speaking, GM has too many employees considering their market share. In fact they have too many employees even if their market share was 5 points higher. Interesting fact, is that Toyota only has 30,000 US. employees. 

It has to occur to some one, some where that GM has been a welfare company for far too long. They employee way to many Americans who don't appreciate their employment status. All of them do not even support the company with a simply thing such as having an all GM new car driveway (not including hobbie classic cars from other manufacturers.) Imagine a situation where employees at Lordstown or Detroit-Ham actually actively recommended a Cruze, Volt, CT6, Lacrosse, Impala to their family and friends. How about the community and city of Detroit do the same? Why? Because supporting your plant meant supporting jobs, keeping jobs. Hypothetically John, who, along with his dad owns "Gios," the restaurant that serves DH employees daily, rolls up to the restaurant his new Avalon instead of an even Consumer Reports top pick, Impala. One sale lost, now two, now three. Detroit-Ham closes. Six months later, "Gio's" closes. Now John is making his car payments to Toyota Finance using unemployment money he gets fed. He's sour on GM for closing the plant. What if he had of just bought an Impala and spread the word that it is a great car? German employees know this. They support the hell out of their local plants even when their car is a piece of junk VW.

👍👍

[A Horse With No Name]

A huge part of the problem IMHO is that Americans don't want to pay even a nickel more to buy anything American, be it tools, clothes, toys, pet supplies, shoes, or whatever.

How many people on the line happily take their GM or Ford paycheck and run right over to WalMart to fill up the trunk of their Camry with Chinese made goods?

51 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

This in no way, should be second to some damn fat nosed 7series

That is gorgeous.

57 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Not particularly a fan of unions, but I loathe management scum, tend to side w/ workers than the MBA shit-for-brains running things.   I prefer being an hourly independent consultant/hired gun.   

False dichotomy, lots of people in management want what is best for the company and work their asses off for Ford or GM or the like. Management bad, Worker good is a wild oversimplification of the real state of affairs.

"In truth.. If Americans and Canadians want more GM vehicles built in America, say Detroit-Ham or Lordstown, they should have made certain that the vehicles built there were the number one vehicles you saw when you entered the area at least. People at Fairfax should be currently buying Malibus by the dozen. I mean that. The only thing one could perhaps cry about would be the lack of a V6, which is a ball drop on GM for not putting marketing in place to let it be known that the 2.0L was a viable and better alternative to the 3.6L, with more torque allowing for almost identical acceleration. The quality, content and styling of that vehicle in no way is inferior to a Camry or Accord, although I would say many nit-pick a GM product to the brink of it slitting its own risk versus a Asian or Euro product. By that I mean I have witnessed many giving a pass on the overall shoddy engineering of a Range Rover's powertrain, but hold it in higher regard over an Escalade due to CUE not having buttons. But that's the mentality of Americans/Canadians. The standard is so high, but the product must be so cheap for Domestic makers." 

Quoted for Truth

[A Horse With No Name]

https://jalopnik.com/brand-new-volkswagen-arrives-at-dealer-and-drops-an-f-b-1831242214

Japanese often really look down on American culture also...something that is true of some the Japanese that work at Honda here in Ohio.

Responding to Cmicassa.

Edited December 21, 2018 by A Horse With No Name

[ccap41]

22 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

A huge part of the problem IMHO is that Americans don't want to pay even a nickel more to buy anything American, be it tools, clothes, toys, pet supplies, shoes, or whatever.

I also think a part of that is the perception of American made products aren't made to the standards of European or Japanese goods.

[A Horse With No Name]

3 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I also think a part of that is the perception of American made products aren't made to the standards of European or Japanese goods.

Or American made goods are more expensive. I work in the skilled trades...lots of guys want to buy American until they see a higher price. then loyalty goes out the door. Me...I like a lot of imported cars, but most of my tools and personal items are American made.

Other part of the problem is that we have abandoned whole industries. Try to buy an American made Camera or TV set.

But with cars...I think there is also a negative social stigma to driving domestic...like you live in floyover country and live in a trailer park or suburbia and don't lead an interesting life.

And yes, the quality perception persists.

Edited December 21, 2018 by A Horse With No Name

[Cmicasa the Great]

7 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

https://jalopnik.com/brand-new-volkswagen-arrives-at-dealer-and-drops-an-f-b-1831242214

Japanese often really look down on American culture also...something that is true of some the Japanese that work at Honda here in Ohio.

Responding to Cmicassa.

Its true.. some may not know, and most of my old AWCC and MTForum members that came here are gone.. but my heritage is American Black father who was a 1/4 Cherokee, a mother who is partially Black, White, and half Japanese. When I was young I would visit my family's home in Kobe, Japan.. where the sentiment pertaining to Americans was not so grateful as some were led to believe. I have cousins over there that work in the industry, specifically for Toyota who always call me laughing at the fact that we made the Camry the number one car in sales for almost two decades. Even he jokes about the mediocrity of the product.. and can't fathom why Americans pick almost two to one over the Malibu, Fusion, and Accord. He has on occasion down the same thing when talking about the Corolla. Once calling Americans idiots over the Corolla.. a vehicle that is the greatest compromise in history intermingling BLAND, BORING, UNDERPOWERED, and BASIC. He has commented to me that "the American companies try.. they even succeed at building better, more exciting, and just as reliable compacts, with newer technology and better styling.. while the Corolla, a car that still has linage that goes back 20 years.. continues to beat them in sales." (Chrysler picked up on this with  the LX cars.. GM should still be selling Sigma/ZETA platforms and pre-Epsilon (WBody) Impalas base don this philosophy) 

Truth Toyota is smart. Americans don't desire advancement. The country is conservative. GM could have continued its formula of Solid Axle in the Tahoe for another 20 years. Should they have? no. The Cruze should have never been called Cruze, or Cobalt.. it should still be called Cavalier.. and that car should still be riding on the platform that made the Cobalt SS the best performance compact in America just 12 years ago. Change the styling.. upgrade the electronics and interior.. and market as new... THAT IS THE TOYOTA PHILOSOPHY TO PROFITS. Basic ass $h!. But... Americans would squawk on these forums.. in those magazine reviews. Domestics are the most scrutinized of all. Is there any other manufacturer that U can think of without using Google , where U know the actual name of the platform the specific car U are talking about is on? This.. without Google:

Impala- Epsilon 2-L

ATS CTS- Alpha and Alpha L

CT6 Omega

Tahoe Yukon Esca - K2XX

Cruze D2xx..

Now ask me what the hell Nissan's Sentra, the Infiniti QX70 are one.. What about that Corolla? The BMW 5Series? Sh!t I can't tell U what the Accord is on.

9 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

Or American made goods are more expensive. I work in the skilled trades...lots of guys want to buy American until they see a higher price. then loyalty goes out the door. Me...I like a lot of imported cars, but most of my tools and personal items are American made.

Other part of the problem is that we have abandoned whole industries. Try to buy an American made Camera or TV set.

But with cars...I think there is also a negative social stigma to driving domestic...like you live in floyover country and live in a trailer park or suburbia and don't lead an interesting life.

And yes, the quality perception persists.

Right.. Sight unseen, someone asked me why I bought a CTS-V over the M5 or E63AMG.. They literally said, "but Cadillac.. that's an old man car. They float down the road." LMFAO when I picked their ass up and we went for a cruise down around 695.. They sounded like one of those commercials we often think are bull$h! .. "THIS IS A CADILLAC???😱"  

Failure of GM marketing. Failure of Americans' ability  to accept evolution.

[A Horse With No Name]

You are so right when you say that America is a conservative country. Not getting political...but Americans hate change or anything new. Why the eff do we have Appleby's a restaurant chain that screams mediocrity if one ever did....all over the country?

Half of America is shopping malls and strip malls with the same crappy clothing retailers selling the same inferior made in Malaysia fashions that look about as vapid and mindless as that Corolla you were writing about?

See the USA in your Chevrolet...I want to see the parts of it that are invigorating, exciting, unique, forward looking, progressive, dynamic, changing, and positive. Give me craft beer, real new England Clam chowder, a Midwestern High school Football game...with a good band show at half time...

[David]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Modern unions are mostly trash. Overpaid for their work and god forbid they do more work than their very specific work title.. 

I had a buddy work for a union for a bit and he legitimately got written up for doing MORE work because it was somebody else's job(who wasn't there) and he just did it do get it done so work could continue to flow. They're fckn trash these days. The initial intent was great but they've turned into a joke. 

I totally agree, in my early years out of college I was at a company with a union and had to join as it was a requirement, less than 30 days, was also written up for doing more work than others of equal job and others who had that job but was not doing it. Less I say, by 90 days I had found a job with better pay and no union crap.

Twice in my life once in College and once afterwards I worked for Unions and they gave me nothing but grief. Unions had a good place in the early days, now just political gas bags of waste that only serve a very small portion of humanity.

More and more people are better educated and know they do not need to pay someone to get a fair wage and job growth.

[A Horse With No Name]

Just now, dfelt said:

I totally agree, in my early years out of college I was at a company with a union and had to join as it was a requirement, less than 30 days, was also written up for doing more work than others of equal job and others who had that job but was not doing it. Less I say, by 90 days I had found a job with better pay and no union crap.

Twice in my life once in College and once afterwards I worked for Unions and they gave me nothing but grief. Unions had a good place in the early days, now just political gas bags of waste that only serve a very small portion of humanity.

More and more people are better educated and know they do not need to pay someone to get a fair wage and job growth.

I am on the more liberal side of the coin politically but I could not agree more.

[David]

2 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I am on the more liberal side of the coin politically but I could not agree more.

I bet I am more liberal than you my friend, on many things, after all I live in Seattle!  

Second largest home of the Rainbow land behind San Francisco. 

[A Horse With No Name]

5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

I bet I am more liberal than you my friend, on many things, after all I live in Seattle!  

Second largest home of the Rainbow land behind San Francisco. 

I am conservative on some things like the second Amendment and gun ownership rights.  Not wanting to get into a political discussion, but like most Americans I am a mix.

[David]

1 minute ago, A Horse With No Name said:

I am conservative on some things like the second Amendment and gun ownership rights.  Not wanting to get into a political discussion, but like most Americans I am a mix.

Mix is good, we need a mix of educated, political, driven people to keep America Great as it always has been. 

That is why the Auto industry is such a passion, the great mix of options. Something hopefully for everyone. 

Horse n Buggy for our Amish members to EVs for the future forward thinking like you and me.

[Cmicasa the Great]

18 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

You are so right when you say that America is a conservative country. Not getting political...but Americans hate change or anything new. Why the eff do we have Appleby's a restaurant chain that screams mediocrity if one ever did....all over the country?

Half of America is shopping malls and strip malls with the same crappy clothing retailers selling the same inferior made in Malaysia fashions that look about as vapid and mindless as that Corolla you were writing about?

See the USA in your Chevrolet...I want to see the parts of it that are invigorating, exciting, unique, forward looking, progressive, dynamic, changing, and positive. Give me craft beer, real new England Clam chowder, a Midwestern High school Football game...with a good band show at half time...

😂😂 I was telling my GF the other day.. I'm tired of doing Island trips.. f@#k the beach. Our next trip is a train ride all the East coast to Maine. She can go if she wants.. or stay the hell home . We can just enjoy the cities.. and the sites. Take it in U know.

Either way.. U wanna see conservatism that bewilders the hell out of me.. look no further than @ocnblu. While he and I have a lot in common.. at a certain point I break with his ideology on automotive. GM wants to move to EVs, away from ICEs. VW too.. I applaud this, while some say its preposterous 

[David]

@Cmicasa the Great I totally get what you are saying above. I also know you and I have allot in common too including that while we love our little Amish boy @ocnblu and his stuck to the past thinking, you and I are for the future and the excitement that comes with it.

Have a great Holiday weekend my friends! 

@A Horse With No Name @Robert Hall and everyone else here at C&G! Especially our fearless leader @drew

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, dfelt said:

Unions had a good place in the early days, now just political gas bags of waste that only serve a very small portion of humanity.

This times a million! 

[A Horse With No Name]

15 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

This times a million! 

Once again quoted for truth!

[ocnblu]

Don't wait for me to apologize.  ICE is not the past, it is the present, and the future for the vast majority of the automotive market.  Way too many compromises with electrics.  Mere toys.

Edited December 21, 2018 by ocnblu

[ocnblu]

Where did I say something in the above post that isn't true, David Felt?

[riviera74]

2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Don't wait for me to apologize.  ICE is not the past, it is the present, and the future for the vast majority of the automotive market.  Way too many compromises with electrics.  Mere toys.

ICE is the past and the present.  After 2030, I am not sure that ICE will be the future.  ICE certainly has another good decade in it, but BEV will take over, even if it is a relatively a slow crawl to get to full BEV mainstream acceptance on the road.

[riviera74]

12 hours ago, ccap41 said:

This is a little dated and not automotive specific but it's quite significant. 

https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf

Thanks for the information.  I was proven wrong on that subject. 

 

That does lead me to one question: if there was no UAW (and no collective bargaining), how fast would those nonunion wages come down from their current levels?