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Alpha program in doubt?


Chazman

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http://www.automochatter.com/forum/showthr...p=1102#post1102

Lutz said GM will not bring the European BLS, a front-drive car that shares parts with the Saab 9-3, to the United States. As for a small rwd vehicle, "there's certainly an opening, whether we choose to fill it or not," Lutz said.

Taylor takes the opposite view. He says GM doesn't need a smaller car slotted below the CTS. The smaller car would compete with cars such as the Audi A3 and the coming BMW 1 series and would sell in the upper $20,000s.

Says Taylor: "We're not going there. We're a $30,000-to-$40,000 player, not a $20,000-to-$30,000 player."

Edited by Chazman
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I don't see why a Cadillac is required to make Alpha happen. Plus, I don't see why an Alpha Caddy couldn't be $30k-40k.

Cadillac was always part of the business case and would have presumably taken a lead role in the program's developement.

Edited by Chazman
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Taylor takes the opposite view. He says GM doesn't need a smaller car slotted below the CTS. The smaller car would compete with cars such as the Audi A3 and the coming BMW 1 series and would sell in the upper $20,000s.

Says Taylor: "We're not going there. We're a $30,000-to-$40,000 player, not a $20,000-to-$30,000 player."

I agree, Cadillac does not need to compete with such makers as Audi and BMW. Let them make those lowly sub-30k luxury cars. There is NO profit and prestige in that class. Cadillac should sell 30k+ luxury cars ONLY!*

*Sarcasm

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This smells like a smokescreen. There is such a need for this program that I can't see them not following through with it:

Solstice/Sky/GT + associated coupes and sedans

Torana

G6 replacement

gen-6 Camaro

add some exotic materials, and you have a nice Y-body replacement, too.

Also, setting up a RWD B-series lineup makes a lot of sense for Caddy. The B would be a true 3-series competitor, and allow the C-series to go against the 5. Assuming the DTS replacement takes over for the STS, Caddy could actually have an alphanumeric lineup that makes sense (B, C, D).

Give me Jim Taylor's job for a day.

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They should still have the program on. They need a Kappa replacement as well as smaller Pontiac, Opel, Cadillac, and Holden small RWD cars, perhaps Chevy would participate globally in it as well. Lutz was intentionally being vague. No one can comment on future product at GM, it's the corporate policy. Also, I don't believe they would necessarily price down a smaller Cadillac as well. I think they will start moving CTS and STS up in scale (size) and price over time. You can see it already with CTS, and DTS is probably going to die sometime soon, so they'll try to fit that need with a larger STS.

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I really don't understand Taylor's quote: "We're not going there. We're a $30,000-to-$40,000 player, not a $20,000-to-$30,000 player."

$20k-30k is where I would see the Pontiac Alpha slotting in (perhaps more like $18k-28k, but still close enough), so I don't see where he's getting $20-30k for the Cadillac version. If the Pontiac version with all the bells and whistles is $28k, then the Cadillac with most of those same bells and whistles + a nicer interior + Cadillac badge > $28k.

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I don't see why a Cadillac is required to make Alpha happen. Plus, I don't see why an Alpha Caddy couldn't be $30k-40k.

Quite simply the money. Caddy's Alpha would sell at a higher price point and would add to the volume that will cover the cost, meaning the development costs less per car. And add that it would sell higher and it is a win-win situation.

This smells like a smokescreen. There is such a need for this program that I can't see them not following through with it:

Solstice/Sky/GT + associated coupes and sedans

Torana

G6 replacement

gen-6 Camaro

add some exotic materials, and you have a nice Y-body replacement, too.

Also, setting up a RWD B-series lineup makes a lot of sense for Caddy. The B would be a true 3-series competitor, and allow the C-series to go against the 5. Assuming the DTS replacement takes over for the STS, Caddy could actually have an alphanumeric lineup that makes sense (B, C, D).

Give me Jim Taylor's job for a day.

If this is your plan for Alpha I am glad you don't have Taylor's job. The plan for Alpha right now is: compact RWD car chassis with Ecotec only powertrains. Does that sound like Corvette? Camaro? G6? No.

If you try to make 1 chassis that can do everything you end up with a Jack of all trades, Master of none. Part of the reason that the y-body program is SO sucessful is that it is, until the XLR, the only thing on the chassis. It was a dedicated purpose built program, just like Kappa. The higher price point made the business case, Corvette provides all of Corvette development dollars on its own.

Think of it this way 350Z vs Corvette. Both are 2 seat only coupes/convertibles. One is smaller and has a V6 yet it weighs more! The reason the 350Z weighs more is that it is on a 'flexible' chassis. FM has so many prerequisites on other programs that the low volume 350Z's needs got pushed down.

I would rather have a purpose built 2+2 lightweight unibody sedan/coupe only than a 'universal' platform like FM

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Is it me or does it seem that Caddy is still in alot of flux???

Alot of these decisions should have already been made years ago. At this point in the Caddy Renaissance, they should be fine tuning what they already have or at least have 3 or 4 production ready prototypes during winter testing or something.

If the plan is to push the CTS up to compete with BMW 5 then I hope it has technology and the options to compete with the 5 Series.

Have GM figured out what platform the BLS will be on? What is the final decision on the STS and the DTS? Is the SRX being elimated or not and if it is where is the Caddy crossover to compete with the Lexus RX?

At this point in time, Caddy should really have it's crap together. At this point in the 3 generation Slade and 2nd generation CTS the stable for Caddy should be full by now.

If you want to play with the big boys then you need to act like one. And with all this woulda, coulda and shouldas that is coming from Caddy is dishearting.

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Alpha should be able to house a V6. I see no reason why it wouldn't be able to; every competitor's Alpha-sized cars can have bigger-than I4 engines. I think it's way to far along to know anything but the basics of Alpha anyways, and I don't think they already would have decided that there will only be I4s when the program is barely even penciled in.

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Alpha should be able to house a V6. I see no reason why it wouldn't be able to; every competitor's Alpha-sized cars can have bigger-than I4 engines. I think it's way to far along to know anything but the basics of Alpha anyways, and I don't think they already would have decided that there will only be I4s when the program is barely even penciled in.

You can believe whatever you want but EVERYTHING I have read about this program has indicated only Ecotec powertrains.
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You can believe whatever you want but EVERYTHING I have read about this program has indicated only Ecotec powertrains.

Have a link to the stuff you read? I don't ever remember seeing anything about Alpha's powertrain choices having already been decided.

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Gm Brass = :banghead:

Here is my thought: Don't wanna make it for caddy? Feel like its just not quite up to those standards? Note to Lutz(whom I respect greatly). I have another thought for you and I will spell it, B-U-I-C-K!!!!

Lets face it, with the favorable acceptance of the Lucerne and anticipation of the Enclave(which has already garnered critical acclaim for its interior AND exterior), Buick needs to keep the hits coming. Yes people noticed the Lucerne, but for many(myself included) they don't need/want so much car. My argument against the current line-up is that Lucy makes Lacrosse obsolete. Why? Well why spend $25k-$27k on a decently equipped Lacrosse CXL when you can have the better equipped, better looking Lucerne CXL V6 for $27k-$29k. The Lacrosse, though a not-that-bad car, has never caught on quite like GM wanted to and the fact that the Lucerne continues to outsell it even though Lacrosse has been around longer, makes my case for me.

So, back to the topic at hand. My proposal would be make this car for Buick. Ditch the LAX and make this the entry level. Bless it with at least 3(yes 3) engine choices and give it a more 'upscale look' than the cars in the $20k to $30k This, coupled w/Lucerne and Enclave, will bring the late 20's, 30's and 40 somethings you hoped to reached with the LAX anyway. This will allow Buick's appeal to grow while still not stepping on the toes of Caddy. This will bring back the strong BUICK heritage that brought forth such automobeast's as the original Riveara, Wildcat and Grand National. Bring back the excitement to BUICK!!!!!!!!

And if this platform HAS to go to cadillac then I have an equally simple fix. Delete the current, non-relevant STS from the lineup. Move up the CTS that debuted at the auto show(which is stunning inside and out) and then insert this BLS in the CTS's place. Now get ta work GM!!!!!!!

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the article really never says the the alpha-platform was in jeopardy, just the fact that a sub-CTS sedan is doubtful.

I thought the point of alpha was new RWD platform for the G4? and maybe a sedan for Holden?

"Beta" was for the G6 and Torana? correct?

Edited by jbartley
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Didn't Jim Queen already say that Alpha was a done deal for a European Cadillac? He told Autoweek in an interview a few months back that all they need is a plant. I would assume that Holden is developing it in addition to the Torana/G6.

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I think we all should know by now not to write off anything this far out yet.

How many times was Zeta on, off, on again, not off but in idle, back again but never really gone, reconstitited. and finally on the market.

If Alpha is scrubbed that does not mean it may not be back or something similar takes it's place.

Don't under estimate GM as no matter what we get it will fill the needs we see. The folks calling the shots today have more hits than misses and the misses are not Aztec like.

We will be ok no matter what they call this class car.

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Am I they only one who wants the BLS? It would be a PERFECT TSX fighter or ES 350 fighter. I personally think they are great looking car and different enough than the Saab to sell. Cadillac has enough RWD Cars the STS, XLR & CTS are plenty. Bring over the BLS and keep the DTS FWD but on a new platform. That is simply my vote.

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Am I they only one who wants the BLS? It would be a PERFECT TSX fighter or ES 350 fighter. I personally think they are great looking car and different enough than the Saab to sell. Cadillac has enough RWD Cars the STS, XLR & CTS are plenty. Bring over the BLS and keep the DTS FWD but on a new platform. That is simply my vote.

Why not just take on the best seller...... the 3 series? I'm sure there's some BMW fans out there complaining about too many RWD BMWs, 1-3-5-6-7 series, Z4, X5, X3, not to mention conv, and wagon versions of a few of them. But Cadillac has 3 and that's plenty?
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Is it me or does it seem that Caddy is still in alot of flux???

Alot of these decisions should have already been made years ago. At this point in the Caddy Renaissance, they should be fine tuning what they already have or at least have 3 or 4 production ready prototypes during winter testing or something.

If the plan is to push the CTS up to compete with BMW 5 then I hope it has technology and the options to compete with the 5 Series.

Have GM figured out what platform the BLS will be on? What is the final decision on the STS and the DTS? Is the SRX being elimated or not and if it is where is the Caddy crossover to compete with the Lexus RX?

At this point in time, Caddy should really have it's crap together. At this point in the 3 generation Slade and 2nd generation CTS the stable for Caddy should be full by now.

If you want to play with the big boys then you need to act like one. And with all this woulda, coulda and shouldas that is coming from Caddy is dishearting.

yes caddy needs a plan already! heck, even recently i read on leftlanenews.com that caddy is either going to make a car similar to the cien or the 16! come on! both projects were axed a long time ago and they were both stellar projects - so build both!

as for caddy needing a car below the cts... well if they move the cts up to the 5 series level then yes there is a place for a new entry level car. if not i'm not so certain that they need one. pontiac needs one and they can share the platform with saturn and whoever else wants in but i don't think that caddy needs it... just maybe not one that might fit a base pontiac rwd car...

as far as the bls goes... it needs to die and fast! it's ugly and has no appeal to the market it's in and would not sell well here either.

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