GM News: General Motors Announces Job Cuts and Plant Shutdowns in North America

[William Maley]

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This morning, General Motors announced an overhaul of its operations in 2019 which will involve cutting more than 10,000 workers and possibly closing five plants by the end of the year. GM said the cuts should boost cash flow by six billion by the end of 2020.

“The actions we are taking today continue our transformation to be highly agile, resilient and profitable, while giving us the flexibility to invest in the future. We recognize the need to stay in front of changing market conditions and customer preferences to position our company for long-term success,” said GM Chairman and CEO Mary Barra in a statement.

The plants up for possible closure are,

• Detroit-Hamtramck Assembly in Michigan - Home to Buick LaCrosse, Cadillac CT6, Chevrolet Impala, and Chevrolet Volt.
• Lordstown Assembly in Ohio - Home to Chevrolet Cruze.
• Oshawa Assembly in Ontario, Canada - Home to Cadillac XTS, Chevrolet Impala, and finishing production of last-generation Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra
• Baltimore Operations in Maryland (Propulsion)
• Warren Transmission Operations in Michigan

Hints of this announcement came out last night when reports from CTV and The Globe and Mail in Canada reported the closure of Oshawa.

The plant closures also mean a number of models being dropped - including the LaCrosse, CT6, Impala, and Volt. The Cruze will be built in Mexico for other markets.

It was expected GM was going to make some changes to address the underutilization of its plants. Dara from the Center for Automotive Research says GM represents 1 million of the 3.2 million units of underutilized capacity in the U.S. through October.

This announcement comes on the eve of negotiations with the UAW next year and Unifor in 2020. The UAW has announced that it will challenge GM's decision "through every legal, contractual and collective bargaining avenue open to our membership."

The announcement has brought pushback from politicians. Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau expressed "deep disappointment" with the decision. U.S. Senator Rob Portman, a Republican from Ohio express frustration with the possible shutdown of Lordstown.

One group not disappointed with the news is Wall Street. GM stock rose 6.18 percent to $38.00 per share at the time of this writing.

Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required), Bloomberg, Reuters, Twitter, General Motors

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General Motors Accelerates Transformation

• Transforming the global enterprise to advance the company’s vision of Zero Crashes, Zero Emissions, Zero Congestion
• Taking cost actions and optimizing capital expenditures to drive annual run-rate cash savings of approximately $6 billion by year-end 2020

DETROIT – General Motors (NYSE: GM) will accelerate its transformation for the future, building on the comprehensive strategy it laid out in 2015 to strengthen its core business, capitalize on the future of personal mobility and drive significant cost efficiencies.

Today, GM is continuing to take proactive steps to improve overall business performance including the reorganization of its global product development staffs, the realignment of its manufacturing capacity and a reduction of salaried workforce. These actions are expected to increase annual adjusted automotive free cash flow by $6 billion by year-end 2020 on a run-rate basis.

“The actions we are taking today continue our transformation to be highly agile, resilient and profitable, while giving us the flexibility to invest in the future,” said GM Chairman and CEO Mary Barra. “We recognize the need to stay in front of changing market conditions and customer preferences to position our company for long-term success.”

Contributing to the cash savings of approximately $6 billion are cost reductions of $4.5 billion and a lower capital expenditure annual run rate of almost $1.5 billion. The actions include:

• Transforming product development – GM is evolving its global product development workforce and processes to drive world-class levels of engineering in advanced technologies, and to improve quality and speed to market. Resources allocated to electric and autonomous vehicle programs will double in the next two years. Additional actions include:
  • Increasing high-quality component sharing across the portfolio, especially those not visible and perceptible to customers.
  • Expanding the use of virtual tools to lower development time and costs.
  • Integrating its vehicle and propulsion engineering teams.
  • Compressing its global product development campuses.
• Optimizing product portfolio – GM has recently invested in newer, highly efficient vehicle architectures, especially in trucks, crossovers and SUVs. GM now intends to prioritize future vehicle investments in its next-generation battery-electric architectures. As the current vehicle portfolio is optimized, it is expected that more than 75 percent of GM’s global sales volume will come from five vehicle architectures by early next decade.
• Increasing capacity utilization – In the past four years, GM has refocused capital and resources to support the growth of its crossovers, SUVs and trucks, adding shifts and investing $6.6 billion in U.S. plants that have created or maintained 17,600 jobs. With changing customer preferences in the U.S. and in response to market-related volume declines in cars, future products will be allocated to fewer plants next year.
  • Assembly plants that will be unallocated in 2019 include:
    • Oshawa Assembly in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada.
    • Detroit-Hamtramck Assembly in Detroit.
    • Lordstown Assembly in Warren, Ohio.
  • Propulsion plants that will be unallocated in 2019 include:
    • Baltimore Operations in White Marsh, Maryland.
    • Warren Transmission Operations in Warren, Michigan.

In addition to the previously announced closure of the assembly plant in Gunsan, Korea, GM will cease the operations of two additional plants outside North America by the end of 2019.

These manufacturing actions are expected to significantly increase capacity utilization. To further enhance business performance, GM will continue working to improve other manufacturing costs, productivity and the competitiveness of wages and benefits.

• Staffing transformation – The company is transforming its global workforce to ensure it has the right skill sets for today and the future, while driving efficiencies through the utilization of best-in-class tools. Actions are being taken to reduce salaried and salaried contract staff by 15 percent, which includes 25 percent fewer executives to streamline decision making.

Barra added, “These actions will increase the long-term profit and cash generation potential of the company and improve resilience through the cycle.”

GM expects to fund the restructuring costs through a new credit facility that will further improve the company’s strong liquidity position and enhance its financial flexibility.

GM expects to record pre-tax charges of $3.0 billion to $3.8 billion related to these actions, including up to $1.8 billion of non-cash accelerated asset write-downs and pension charges, and up to $2.0 billion of employee-related and other cash-based expenses. The majority of these charges will be considered special for EBIT-adjusted, EPS diluted-adjusted and adjusted automotive free cash flow purposes. The majority of these charges will be incurred in the fourth quarter of 2018 and first quarter of 2019, with some additional costs incurred through the remainder of 2019. 

View full article

[David]

Totally makes sense to close underutilized plants. The golden age of Industrialization are over for the US and the growth will be in China for GM. Efficient Agile manufacturing will come with the new skateboard platform GM will probably use for BOLT 2.0 and all other EV / Hybrid auto's. My gut says this is only the beginning for all automakers. Expect this same kind of announcement to become common over the next 18 months as auto companies realign production for the new global market change to EV/Hybrid auto's.

[frogger]

I was a little surprised about the CT6 but then it hasn't been selling much.  Where will the CT4/5 be built?

 

 

[David]

3 minutes ago, frogger said:

I was a little surprised about the CT6 but then it hasn't been selling much.  Where will the CT4/5 be built?

I am actually not surprised by the CT6 being discontinued. The car is great for a car, but really does not bring anything new or revolutionary to the car market that is dwindling as most move to CUV / SUV type auto's or Crew Cab pickups to support family hauling and stuff hauling.

My gut is telling me we will see some very big surprises out of GM with their EV auto launches.

Heart and soul of auto's in the future will be Hybrids and pure EVs with speed.

[William Maley]

7 minutes ago, frogger said:

I was a little surprised about the CT6 but then it hasn't been selling much.  Where will the CT4/5 be built?

 

Don't know at the moment, my guess would have been Detroit-Hamtramck. But now I wonder if Lansing could do it.

[smk4565]

First off, I feel bad for the folks that are losing their jobs.   These big corporations lobbied for and got the tax cuts under the guise of "we'll bring the jobs and money back to the US" but we all knew that wasn't going to happen. 

As far as the products go, I would be surprised for the Volt to be totally killed, I could see the Volt becoming a pure EV sedan, something bigger than the Bolt and maybe not as big as a Malibu.  I think the CT6 could move production to another plant, possibly even China and import.  I don't think they will totally kill that product.

The LaCrosse, Impala, XTS, Cruze I think are all dead.  Buick can get by with 1 sedan and they'll probably just do a Malibu clone to replace the current Regal/LaCrosse, maybe they recycle one of those name plates.

[Suaviloquent]

Damn. And they’re not even allocating better selling products to those plants.

[David]

Just now, Suaviloquent said:

Damn. And they’re not even allocating better selling products to those plants.

Yet they are underutilized plants that are probably costing more money than they make and with a JIT / Agile manufacturing system, you can do more with less plants. This makes sense.

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

First off, I feel bad for the folks that are losing their jobs.   These big corporations lobbied for and got the tax cuts under the guise of "we'll bring the jobs and money back to the US" but we all knew that wasn't going to happen. 

As far as the products go, I would be surprised for the Volt to be totally killed, I could see the Volt becoming a pure EV sedan, something bigger than the Bolt and maybe not as big as a Malibu.  I think the CT6 could move production to another plant, possibly even China and import.  I don't think they will totally kill that product.

The LaCrosse, Impala, XTS, Cruze I think are all dead.  Buick can get by with 1 sedan and they'll probably just do a Malibu clone to replace the current Regal/LaCrosse, maybe they recycle one of those name plates.

I totally agree with you in regards to the workers, but the North America market is not going to grow like China will and sedans are going to dwindle, not die, but no need for the large diverse selection out there based on how people live now. I expect the German brands to reduce car types too in the near future.

LaCrosse, Impala, XTS and Cruze I agree will probably die. Volt is also understandable as if your over 5'8" tall it is really cramped in the front and especially the back. The VOLT power train will live on in a CUV replacement is my guess. I do think your statement of a Malibu Hybrid Volt Power train makes sense as does a rebadge for Buick of the same auto.

[A Horse With No Name]

4 minutes ago, Suaviloquent said:

Damn. And they’re not even allocating better selling products to those plants.

Nope....Lordstown is a gonner I think. Sadly. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

I read this slightly different.. as I though the plan all along was to consolidate plants.. It makes zero sense to kill the Cruze, Volt, and CT6.. and still continue making the Spark and Sonic.. unless what is going on is these products are simply being moved. Product is shifting.. these non-enthusiastic drivers LOVE CUVs.. hence Ford's exodus from the car market.. but we have a CT3 and CT5 on the way.. the death of the XTS means without the CT6 after 2020... what's going to happen? MY guess.. on that note would be that someone got the message that if U are going to directly compete with the other lux brands.. it makes no sense to have a CT3, CT5, CT6.. and then intro a CT7. Could it be that the CT6, a vehicle that was misnamed in the first place.. will simply morph into a CT7 ?

I'm an optimist tho.. something that is not looked upon in high regard when it comes to GM

[Cmicasa the Great]

also...

Quote

It was expected GM was going to make some changes to address the underutilization of its plants. Dara from the Center for Automotive Research says GM represents 1 million of the 3.2 million units of underutilized capacity in the U.S. through October.

This announcement comes on the eve of negotiations with the UAW next year and Unifor in 2020. 

Why is that part.. particularly the bolded being ignored also? Negotiations and "carrot/stick" moves have to be put in place. Again.. I understand consolidation of underutilized plants.. and even merging a few vehicles. Personally I have never understood why the Spark and Sonic existed together.. In fact.. many times I went on record here saying that the TRAX should have simply been a TALL Sonic.. kill the Spark. The Volt too.. I could never understand why it simply wasn't called the CRUZE HYBRID.. sales would have been the same or better.. and the idea that having a separate vehicle similar to Toyota's Prius was unnecessary for GM.. they aren't using the VOLT name to make themselves seem more green.. so why bother? I see billion of marketing dollars going to the Silverado and its spawn.. and just thousands of dollars going to the Volt and Bolt.

[riviera74]

I could see three of those five plants shutting down sooner than later.  Does GM need Baltimore AND Warren?  In theory, GM could simply consolidate those two into one facility.  As for the other three, two can be shut down with no ill effects on GM's bottom line.  Sad as it is, This is not 1980 or even 2005.  Consolidation and efficiency are the orders of the day.  Wall Street Demands it and Commands it.  All other will follow.

[A Horse With No Name]

20 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

I could see three of those five plants shutting down sooner than later.  Does GM need Baltimore AND Warren?  In theory, GM could simply consolidate those two into one facility.  As for the other three, two can be shut down with no ill effects on GM's bottom line.  Sad as it is, This is not 1980 or even 2005.  Consolidation and efficiency are the orders of the day.  Wall Street Demands it and Commands it.  All other will follow.

Lordstown is hugely under utilized and has been for decades. 

[David]

Saw this at Jalopnik, good chart of the plants and people.

https://jalopnik.com/dead-the-cadillac-ct6-and-a-ton-of-other-gm-cars-1830656192 

[Robert Hall]

Wasn't the Camaro built at Oshawa also?  

[David]

4 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Wasn't the Camaro built at Oshawa also?  

Was, according to info on the web it was moved in 2012 to Lansing Grand River assembly plant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lansing_Grand_River_Assembly

They produce all the RWD cars there which is ATS, CTS and Camaro. So in the near future we will have CT3, CT5 and Camaro produced there.

[Drew Dowdell]

They put a load of money into Detroit-Hamtramck to make it one of the most advanced plants in North America.  I'm surprised they're closing it instead of moving other product there.   I get their reasoning for cutting the vehicles they're cutting, but why not build the inevitable CUVs/SUVs in that plant?

10 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Wasn't the Camaro built at Oshawa also?  

 

7 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Was, according to info on the web it was moved in 2012 to Lansing Grand River assembly plant.

It moved once Camaro moved to a platform shared with Cadillac..... in 2015, not 2012.

[William Maley]

5 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

They put a load of money into Detroit-Hamtramck to make it one of the most advanced plants in North America.  I'm surprised they're closing it instead of moving other product there.   I get their reasoning for cutting the vehicles they're cutting, but why not build the inevitable CUVs/SUVs in that plant?

 

Because that would make too much sense. This is GM we are talking about.

[Drew Dowdell]

After simmering on this a bit more.... this is going to have serious political implications in 2020.  In the last 14 presidential elections, Ohio has gone with the ultimate winner in the election.  Trump won the county where Lordstown sits by 6,000 votes.  One would think it could also have a significant impact on the mood of the constituents of Michigan in 2 years time.   It is entirely possible that the next presidential election was just decided today. 

[Cmicasa the Great]

and again.. the article reads... "The plants up for possible closure are"

now according to Webster's... being what may be conceived, be done, or occur according to nature, custom, or manners

[Drew Dowdell]

6 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

and again.. the article reads... "The plants up for possible closure are"

now according to Webster's... being what may be conceived, be done, or occur according to nature, custom, or manners

What isn't changed is the vehicles that would be canceled.  Everything on the list is among GM's slowest retail sellers.  If they cancel the Cruze... there is no reason to keep Lordstown.   I am surprised but not really that the CT6 is on the cut list. The XTS we've known about for a while.... if Impala and XTS go, then there is no business case for Lacrosse.

From there it snowballs.  No Cruze = No Volt. 

No Volt + No Impala + No Lacrosse = CT6 alone at Hamtramck, which just doesn't add up.

My guess is that if ANY of these vehicles survive, it will be the CT6 because it is the newest, but they'll build it in China and ship it over. 

[Robert Hall]

It's weird they would have a plant making only one model.. seems like an inefficient use of resources.

[A Horse With No Name]

42 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

After simmering on this a bit more.... this is going to have serious political implications in 2020.  In the last 14 presidential elections, Ohio has gone with the ultimate winner in the election.  Trump won the county where Lordstown sits by 6,000 votes.  One would think it could also have a significant impact on the mood of the constituents of Michigan in 2 years time.   It is entirely possible that the next presidential election was just decided today. 

One can hope.

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

I read this slightly different.. as I though the plan all along was to consolidate plants.. It makes zero sense to kill the Cruze, Volt, and CT6.. and still continue making the Spark and Sonic.. unless what is going on is these products are simply being moved. Product is shifting.. these non-enthusiastic drivers LOVE CUVs.. hence Ford's exodus from the car market.. but we have a CT3 and CT5 on the way.. the death of the XTS means without the CT6 after 2020... what's going to happen? MY guess.. on that note would be that someone got the message that if U are going to directly compete with the other lux brands.. it makes no sense to have a CT3, CT5, CT6.. and then intro a CT7. Could it be that the CT6, a vehicle that was misnamed in the first place.. will simply morph into a CT7 ?

I'm an optimist tho.. something that is not looked upon in high regard when it comes to GM

Ford and FCA dropped sedans mostly, I could see Chevy dropping the Cruze and just having an Asian built Sonic imported (depending on tariffs) for a cheap car and the Malibu being their only gas sedan.  If the Volt is an EV sedan you sort of have enough sedans.  

I think future GM is going to pick and choose where they compete and not go head on with luxury brands.  They may but Cadillac to 2 sedans, but I would be surprised if they didn't have a 3rd sedan.   We probably have to see how big the CT5 is, if it is larger than the CTS, and the CT4 is larger than a ATS, then you don't need a CT6 or CT7.  Anything outside of the S-class has horrible volume in that segment, the A8 exists because of China and the 7-series exists because of Europe.

[riviera74]

The CT6 and the Volt (maybe) are the only two that deserve saving.  The rest can rest in peace, given the massive shift to SUVs and crossovers. 

As for the Volt and Bolt, when is GM going to put out its replacement platform for those vehicles?  Moreover, where is the EV version of an Equinox/Terrain/Envision?

[regfootball]

i don't see the Cruze going away.  GM needs it for CAFE.  

Regarding the CT6, no way they kill that car after just announcing the v8 for it.  Plus, it delivers what real Cadillac fans want.  Size.  My bet is they move it to another plant, China, or change it to CT7 as suggested.  If Cadillac fully kills that car, then fuck them.  They deserve what they have coming to them.  Will anyone give two shits about Cadillac if they don't offer a full sized sedan?  (but will probably still have a CT3 or CT4).

I saw an interior spy photo of the CT5 interior on Burlapp cars.  That won't take any business away from the Germans for interior design and quality.  It's a reconfigured XT4 interior.

The other point about this being a pre-emptive strike in the labor war, that makes sense to me also.

Sorry to throw this out there, but post 2009, Barra led GM is becoming a joke.  Spend all the $$$ on chasing autonomous cars and complying with CAFE.  Mistakes with Camaro.  No impactful EV releases that would challenge Tesla.  Looking to move all vehicle assembly out of the US, seemingly.  No performance vehicles for the average Joe, that aren't a pony car.

 

 

[David]

8 minutes ago, regfootball said:

i don't see the Cruze going away.  GM needs it for CAFE.  

Regarding the CT6, no way they kill that car after just announcing the v8 for it.  Plus, it delivers what real Cadillac fans want.  Size.  My bet is they move it to another plant, China, or change it to CT7 as suggested.  If Cadillac fully kills that car, then fuck them.  They deserve what they have coming to them.  Will anyone give two shits about Cadillac if they don't offer a full sized sedan?  (but will probably still have a CT3 or CT4).

I saw an interior spy photo of the CT5 interior on Burlapp cars.  That won't take any business away from the Germans for interior design and quality.  It's a reconfigured XT4 interior.

The other point about this being a pre-emptive strike in the labor war, that makes sense to me also.

Sorry to throw this out there, but post 2009, Barra led GM is becoming a joke.  Spend all the $$$ on chasing autonomous cars and complying with CAFE.  Mistakes with Camaro.  No impactful EV releases that would challenge Tesla.  Looking to move all vehicle assembly out of the US, seemingly.  No performance vehicles for the average Joe, that aren't a pony car.

Yet Cadillac just posted this on Instagram and the battle over is it alive or dead or just plugin is going on.

CT6 Love does exist

 

 The more I think on this is that the CT6 production will move to Lansing where you will have the CT3, CT5, CT6 or 7 or whatever they decide to relabel it along with the Camaro built there especially since you have the TT V8 announced and supposedly in or going into production?

[Drew Dowdell]

15 minutes ago, regfootball said:

i don't see the Cruze going away.  GM needs it for CAFE.  

Regarding the CT6, no way they kill that car after just announcing the v8 for it.  Plus, it delivers what real Cadillac fans want.  Size.  My bet is they move it to another plant, China, or change it to CT7 as suggested.  If Cadillac fully kills that car, then fuck them.  They deserve what they have coming to them.  Will anyone give two shits about Cadillac if they don't offer a full sized sedan?  (but will probably still have a CT3 or CT4).

I saw an interior spy photo of the CT5 interior on Burlapp cars.  That won't take any business away from the Germans for interior design and quality.  It's a reconfigured XT4 interior.

The other point about this being a pre-emptive strike in the labor war, that makes sense to me also.

Sorry to throw this out there, but post 2009, Barra led GM is becoming a joke.  Spend all the $$$ on chasing autonomous cars and complying with CAFE.  Mistakes with Camaro.  No impactful EV releases that would challenge Tesla.  Looking to move all vehicle assembly out of the US, seemingly.  No performance vehicles for the average Joe, that aren't a pony car.

 

 

There aren't performance vehicles for the average joe.  The Charger Hellcat costs as much as an ATS-V. A Grand Cherokee Trackhawk is in CTS-V territory... or might as well be as much as it matters to the Average Joe.  It doesn't matter that FCA is using their Average Joe brand names, they still cost as much as a Cadillac performance vehicle. 

And Joe can barely handle an Impala V6 at full throttle. 

[Robert Hall]

8 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

There aren't performance vehicles for the average joe.  The Charger Hellcat costs as much as an ATS-V. A Grand Cherokee Trackhawk is in CTS-V territory... or might as well be as much as it matters to the Average Joe.  It doesn't matter that FCA is using their Average Joe brand names, they still cost as much as a Cadillac performance vehicle. 

And Joe can barely handle an Impala V6 at full throttle. 

And cars that used be 'Average Joe' performance cars like the Camaro SS and Mustang GT are easily $40k and up w/ options.   Average Joe today is driving a FWD 4cyl transverse automatic trans appliance. 

[frogger]

I'm wondering what Average Joe considers their price point to be and what performance they would expect at that price point.  The Chevy SS and Pontiac G8 did not exactly send Average Joes clamouring to GM dealerships.  The Stinger GT isn't found at every corner.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by frogger

[Robert Hall]

GM used to have cheap Average Joe performance cars like the Cavalier Z24, but with the Cruze there were no performance models or coupes...just boring sedans. 

[smk4565]

56 minutes ago, regfootball said:

i don't see the Cruze going away.  GM needs it for CAFE.  

Regarding the CT6, no way they kill that car after just announcing the v8 for it.  Plus, it delivers what real Cadillac fans want.  Size.  My bet is they move it to another plant, China, or change it to CT7 as suggested.  If Cadillac fully kills that car, then f@#k them.  They deserve what they have coming to them.  Will anyone give two $h!s about Cadillac if they don't offer a full sized sedan?  (but will probably still have a CT3 or CT4).

I saw an interior spy photo of the CT5 interior on Burlapp cars.  That won't take any business away from the Germans for interior design and quality.  It's a reconfigured XT4 interior.

The other point about this being a pre-emptive strike in the labor war, that makes sense to me also.

Sorry to throw this out there, but post 2009, Barra led GM is becoming a joke.  Spend all the $$$ on chasing autonomous cars and complying with CAFE.  Mistakes with Camaro.  No impactful EV releases that would challenge Tesla.  Looking to move all vehicle assembly out of the US, seemingly.  No performance vehicles for the average Joe, that aren't a pony car.

 

 

If the CT5 grows in size over the CTS then I think CT6 or any other large sedan is finished and they are going the Infiniti 2-Sedan strategy.  But you are right on the CT5 spy photo, that won’t scare any Germans.

And to the last point, this is why people buy imports.  Aside from the German performance cars you can get a Veloster N, Mazda has some sporty cars, Kia Stinger, etc

[frogger]

18 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

GM used to have cheap Average Joe performance cars like the Cavalier Z24, but with the Cruze there were no performance models or coupes...just boring sedans. 

Ahhh the Z24.... brings back memory of high school and $h! boxes that felt like they were going to fall apart on bad roads even when new.

 

 

[Robert Hall]

2 minutes ago, frogger said:

Ahhh the Z24.... brings back memory of high school and $h! boxes that felt like they were going to fall apart on bad roads even when new.

 

There was also a Cobalt SS...forgot about that..was trying to think of cheap GM performance cars from the last 15 years or so...

[regfootball]

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

There aren't performance vehicles for the average joe.  The Charger Hellcat costs as much as an ATS-V. A Grand Cherokee Trackhawk is in CTS-V territory... or might as well be as much as it matters to the Average Joe.  It doesn't matter that FCA is using their Average Joe brand names, they still cost as much as a Cadillac performance vehicle. 

And Joe can barely handle an Impala V6 at full throttle. 

By (enough) performance car (choices) for the average Joe, I refer to say, a midsize sedan --with sport suspension---, that may hit say a 5.5 to 7.0 second 0-60, that sell for a mid level price.  Not just burying the larger motor in a more expensive trim and options package, Regal GS is a great example.  Hey, we'll sell a v6 Regal, but it will only be stickered at 44,000.  Or the 2.0 only being available in Malibu with the full on Premier trim.

At least Dodge offers the Charger with a v6.  Honda's Accord Sport package is maybe one of the few cars that addresses driving and a decent motor for a close to mid pack middle America price.

Or even simply, a mid level hatchback with decent handling, not a full blown Focus RS or ST but just something more playful.......Where is a simple 200hp engine upgrade for the Cruze?

 

 

43 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

GM used to have cheap Average Joe performance cars like the Cavalier Z24, but with the Cruze there were no performance models or coupes...just boring sedans. 

Right.

Edited November 26, 2018 by regfootball

[Suaviloquent]

Well look at it this way. Does Toyota survive with Japan mostly? Does Mercedes really make any reasonable profit in Germany alone? Aside from the part of the market that they domestically have cornered, it seems the domestic makes here have now become fully globalized and will now only compete where they make money. It’s almost as though they’ve become really conservative. 

The only automakers making splashes are really some Korean cars and maybe new start-ups where they aren’t compete failures.

 

Everyting else is cold, calculated and a sign of the times.

 

[regfootball]

34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If the CT5 grows in size over the CTS then I think CT6 or any other large sedan is finished and they are going the Infiniti 2-Sedan strategy.  But you are right on the CT5 spy photo, that won’t scare any Germans.

And to the last point, this is why people buy imports.  Aside from the German performance cars you can get a Veloster N, Mazda has some sporty cars, Kia Stinger, etc

Stuff I've seen suggests the CT5 surely won't be any larger inside than the CTS, excepting perhaps a little more knee room around a less obtrusive console.  The styling based on spy pics doesn't suggest a game changer or even something improved.

Large sedan is Cadilac's DNA.  If the CT6 goes away, quite simply, they are f---ed.  CT6 will replace their XTS volume if they repackage their trims and sell enough of them in non platinum 90k plus trim levels.  This simply honors the fact that Cadillac can't sell at absurd transaction prices like the Germans, and that enough of their showroom product has to sell in lower lux tier volume prices to keep the dealerships doors open.

I'll even go a bit further and suggest the people running GM don't even care 2 shits about the product.  It's old lore that GM was run by bean counters but the influence of performance did come through.  GM is so diluted in crap these days I don't think most at the top give a shit if GM doesn't fade into being Hyundai or Toyota.  GM is more concerned with social media, PR, autonomous driving, electrics, than product.  Show me any of the top tier execs who flex their muscle to fight for anything besides Corvette and Camaro, which may be all they are given the ability to even keep.

Edited November 26, 2018 by regfootball

[ocnblu]

Yes yes yes... where is the honorable Bob Lutz when he is desperately needed?  Zero emissions, zero crashes and zero congestion is pure baloney.

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

It's weird they would have a plant making only one model.. seems like an inefficient use of resources.

Bowling Green comes readily to mind.

[William Maley]

Didn't know about this interesting bit of history concerning GM's Detroit-Hamtramck plant. From Reuters via Automotive News (Subscription Required).

Quote

The Detroit-Hamtramck plant stands on 465 acres of land that was once a neighborhood known as "Poletown."

In 1981, the Michigan Supreme Court approved a decision to allow Detroit to tear down up to 1,500 homes, more than 140 businesses, a hospital and six churches to build the $500 million plant. The Detroit News reported 4,200 people lost their homes as a result.

GM convinced officials in the cities of Detroit and Hamtramck, the state of Michigan -- and ultimately the state's highest court -- to use eminent domain, a controversial process in which government seizes private land.

Karen Majewski, the mayor of Hamtramck, told Reuters that the GM plant is one of the largest contributors to local property taxes. Empty, she worried the factory will discourage other investments.

"They destroyed homes and churches and local businesses, all to build that plant," Majewski said. "Now that the plant is going to close, people will wonder why that neighborhood had to be sacrificed in the first place."

 

 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, regfootball said:

Stuff I've seen suggests the CT5 surely won't be any larger inside than the CTS, excepting perhaps a little more knee room around a less obtrusive console.  The styling based on spy pics doesn't suggest a game changer or even something improved.

Large sedan is Cadilac's DNA.  If the CT6 goes away, quite simply, they are f---ed.  CT6 will replace their XTS volume if they repackage their trims and sell enough of them in non platinum 90k plus trim levels.  This simply honors the fact that Cadillac can't sell at absurd transaction prices like the Germans, and that enough of their showroom product has to sell in lower lux tier volume prices to keep the dealerships doors open.

I'll even go a bit further and suggest the people running GM don't even care 2 $h!s about the product.  It's old lore that GM was run by bean counters but the influence of performance did come through.  GM is so diluted in crap these days I don't think most at the top give a $h! if GM doesn't fade into being Hyundai or Toyota.  GM is more concerned with social media, PR, autonomous driving, electrics, than product.  Show me any of the top tier execs who flex their muscle to fight for anything besides Corvette and Camaro, which may be all they are given the ability to even keep.

The CT5 will probably flop like every other Cadillac sedan since about 2012 has, I agree there seems to be nothing game changing or improved there.  Cadillac was about big sedans, but big sedans don't sell, and Cadillac also dropped the ball on the CT6 by not making it powerful enough, the V8 isn't even out yet.  If you are going to build a big, expensive sedan it should have power and performance, not a torque less V6 or a turbo 4.  And weak product and marketing for decades that has eroded Cadillac's image is why they can't sell for German prices.

The people running GM are bean counters for sure.  They get a $150 million tax cut this year, turn around and lay off 15,000 people and the stock price goes up 7% today.  I bet Mary Barra's portfolio is looking good, probably a big bonus coming her way too.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, Suaviloquent said:

Well look at it this way. Does Toyota survive with Japan mostly? Does Mercedes really make any reasonable profit in Germany alone? Aside from the part of the market that they domestically have cornered, it seems the domestic makes here have now become fully globalized and will now only compete where they make money. It’s almost as though they’ve become really conservative. 

The only automakers making splashes are really some Korean cars and maybe new start-ups where they aren’t compete failures.

 

Everyting else is cold, calculated and a sign of the times.

 

Mercedes makes money everywhere, USA is only their 3rd biggest market and they have been #1 luxury car company for a while here.  They just built a new factory in South Carolina for the Sprinter with 1,300 new jobs.  They are spending $1.3 billion to expand the Alabama plant to include battery production and that will add more jobs.  They are investing in the USA, as the Detroit 3 bail out.  

Mercedes is also building a new factory in Germany to build the next S-class, which will be the most technologically advanced and greenest auto manufacturing plant in the world.  They are building new factories and creating jobs.

1 hour ago, ocnblu said:

Yes yes yes... where is the honorable Bob Lutz when he is desperately needed?  Zero emissions, zero crashes and zero congestion is pure baloney.

And chances are they will be next to last to the party in that zero emissions and autonomous car thing.  They'll beat FCA there, and that might be it.

[ocnblu]

For those of us who grew up as GM fans, the GM of today is a pale excuse.  And their stated future plans suck ass.  They've priced themselves into oblivion, for one thing.  And actually having the balls to say their pickups and BOF Suvs profits are going to fund a very risky and suspect future just makes it that much worse.  How much can diehards take before they say ENOUGH?

[Suaviloquent]

SMK...read again, would Mercedes make reasonable profit if it just had the German market? Hell no! Shareholders and half of the German workers would outright demand the heads to get off their ass and sell more product in other countries! 

To make more profit! 

That’s it. Every company finds its way to more profit. They don’t think about products that are nice to have, but rather what makes results.

i don’t think the car is totally dead, but if you want a sedan, really, import brands overall just did a better job anyways for the model year 2018, especially in lower end trims.

Maybe a Plutonium Fusion or whatever they used to call it had an interior with a positive reaction... but that’s gone. In its place is an Escape  to a place that needs an Edge that is fulfilled by the Expeditonion-ing Explorer. 

There he will find his greatest rival, the Park Ranger. Legend says he once was a Raptor in a far off land, but came here with steel in his teeth and and four cyclinders in his heart. That’s probably why he died for like 8 years folks. He had 4 fucking cyclinders in his body. 

Ford’s new Focus is the F150. That is the model year 2019 Ford Focus. What were you thinking - that it’s a tin pot?! Nope, it’s a BEER CAN. Get your product of metallurgy right dammit! 

The Continental is no longer needed. You’d think they’d understood that a long time ago. The new continents were found hundreds of years ago. What, are they going to find a need a Continental that goes to Mars? You have Tesla’s in space for that! You need a SpaceEx...A SpaceExpediton. Dammit, looks like someone stole the idea from Ford!

Instead, Sea, and Air. Where else can Lincoln emancipate the people of luxury? We haven’t mastered those like all of land yet. The Nautilus needs a capable Navigator at its helm. and the Corsair can only fly with a capable Aviator.

Chrysler probably had a month where they only sold 200 of their former midsize sedans. PTful. Aren’t GIU - glad that they are LIA-ving behind some four leaf clovers instead? Plus they have Charging RAMs and Red eye’d Hellcats. They have harnessed the power of the Demon itself. May you bask in the GUTs and GLORY.

Thats before you even count all these cute renegade Jeeps prowling around. Their old Wrangler to keep ‘em line just retired like all these employees being bought out. So they have a new one. May he bring forth one in his upbringing to be the next leader... the Commander, the Grand Cherokee..

And now you may find a day where there’s no Black Cadillacs to be seen in Malibu... except of course the Slades that Elevate to the top of the Sierras. I hear it’s High Country up there. We should all visit Silverados sometime. 

The V’s that would Cruze to along are a dying breed. Like who watches Lacrosse anyways? Seriously...

The Volt led to the Bolt. That’s humans trying to reverse nature, because I’m pretty sure it was actually the true bolt of nature than led to the lowly potential of the volt...

 

Such great legends and stories folks. Long live the prophet....

the profit.

Funny how words change in how they’re spelled and pronounced. And thusly we can summarize the history of everything. 

 

 

[smk4565]

48 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

For those of us who grew up as GM fans, the GM of today is a pale excuse.  And their stated future plans suck ass.  They've priced themselves into oblivion, for one thing.  And actually having the balls to say their pickups and BOF Suvs profits are going to fund a very risky and suspect future just makes it that much worse.  How much can diehards take before they say ENOUGH?

The problem with GM's plan is it is a continual cut.  They cut Oldsmobile, then all the other brands during the bankruptcy.  Granted a lot of those they didn't need, but in doing that it should have led them to be able to put more money into each brand to make them stronger and they didn't.

They have given up on minivans because they couldn't compete there, now they are cutting maybe half their sedans because they can't make profit there.  They cut European operations because they couldn't make money there.  They are basically a China-North American player now that is by 2020 will probably be 80% trucks and SUVS.  So what happens when competitors go after their truck business, because they will.  We see Hyundai and Kia going into the full size SUV market, Tesla will go into pickups, etc.   GM has been in retreat mode for 20 years.

[ehaase]

I won't be surprised if CT6 moves to Lansing with CT4 and CT5, but I also won't be surprised if the car is just dropped because it has sold so poorly. People with the income to buy new cars just want SUV's, crossovers, and 4 door pickups. 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

So what happens when competitors go after their truck business, because they will.

Dude, the Tundra's been here since 1999! "They did" is what you meant to say. How's that working out for toyota?

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, Suaviloquent said:

SMK...read again, would Mercedes make reasonable profit if it just had the German market? Hell no! Shareholders and half of the German workers would outright demand the heads to get off their ass and sell more product in other countries! 

They would not, which is why they are a global company.  And as I said they are investing in the US market, investing in their own market, investing in China/India, etc.  GM cut Europe, is cutting in the USA, they are in a 20 year cut mode.  

[David]

5 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

There was also a Cobalt SS...forgot about that..was trying to think of cheap GM performance cars from the last 15 years or so...

I almost got a 1991 Chevrolet Beretta GTZ but then drove the 1991 Ford Escort GT built by Mazda and it rocked and destroyed the Beretta for less money.

1991 Beretta GTZ

1991 Ford Escort GT

Had the GT for almost 100,000 miles before my wife was rear ended by a DOT truck and totaled it.

[daves87rs]

Guys, this is just the start-

You haven’t seen anything yet. And not for GM for sure.

One thing I can say- they see the doom coming for the upcoming recession....

This will only keep running through the industry..other automakers will follow.

And welcome the Chinese...their opening has been found.......