Jump to content

GM to absorb Chrysler - as Chrysler absorbed AMC?


Recommended Posts

This rumored deal would likely see the elimination of the historical Chrysler and Dodge brands.

If that will be the case, I absolutely do not support GM on this. Not one bit.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I say do it. With Chrysler's $11 billion in cash they can pay off all the dealers to close. Close down GMC brand, and put Jeep (Wrangler, Liberty, Grand Cherokee, Ram) in its place. Chevy gets a minivan, the 300C could go to Buick or Chevy and everything else dies. GM would get a few products and factories that have value, and clear out one competitor in the market.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I say do it. With Chrysler's $11 billion in cash they can pay off all the dealers to close. Close down GMC brand, and put Jeep (Wrangler, Liberty, Grand Cherokee, Ram) in its place. Chevy gets a minivan, the 300C could go to Buick or Chevy and everything else dies. GM would get a few products and factories that have value, and clear out one competitor in the market.

i think GM needs the $11B to keep out of bankruptcy, not to give away to Chrysler dealers.

Link to post
Share on other sites

my hope would be they keep the door open to keeping the dodge and chrysler brands alive, while really downsizing them.

really, i would rather dodge and chrysler stay around then all the other furrin brands. but people in this country need to understand that their defacto attitude about japan inc. being better is coming home to roost now.

and to think, 30 months ago it was all about chrysler's home run with the 300 and everyone else's mad rush to follow suit with rwd v8's.

folks, that alone if anything tells you of the TECTONIC shift in the car market.

another irony. dodge's new ram is likely the best full size truck on the market now. and its more or less stillborn now.

there was an ominous article in the press a couple years ago about how there would be a major shakout in the market of car brands for sale or making cars worldwide. this may be the start of it. It makes sense to suggest we may be left with GM Ford Toyota Honda VW and BMW, Fiat, Renault and Daimler and a couple Koreans. this could be the start of a tidal wave.

I really hope the Dodge and CHrylser brands survive in some way. I honestly don't see how this plan helps GM, but oh well. One article i read suggested that what this does is create an entity so large, that the govt under a new president will be forced to do something to help it survive. The failure of a merged GM/Chrysler would account for 35% of the manuf. in this country i thought i read. No politician who is smart would not find a way to support its survival.

Edited by regfootball
Link to post
Share on other sites

The brands might be historical, but that's the nature of business. Lets face it, a lot of people weren't exactly crying when brands like Lehman, and JP Morgan, hallowed institutions, came tumbling down. Heck, the only brand left on the Dow Jones since its inception is General Electric.

Still, I'd prefer this really didn't happen, but if it did, I'd only want to see Jeep hang around. Other than that asset, Chrysler doesn't exactly have much that would interest GM... or pretty much anyone in the general populous nowadays.

Edit: Although I still love their commercials. :P

Edited by Captainbooyah
Link to post
Share on other sites

Plymouth, AMC, Studebaker, Oldsmobile, Eagle Packard, and Hudson all had history too, and they are all gone. History and pleasing dealers has nothing to do with it. It hinges on how many brands can a shrinking American car market support, and right now the Detroit 3 have too many models, and too much capacity, so they have to give huge incentives to move metal. They've all done the same basic tactics for the last 15 years and it isn't working, GM needs a radical change, this could be it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
It hinges on how many brands can a shrinking American car market support, and right now the Detroit 3 have too many models, and too much capacity, so they have to give huge incentives to move metal.

you mean like toyota is doing too? i dont think this is a Big 3 thing, i think all are suffereing with this slump just some are going to survive the atrition longer

Link to post
Share on other sites

This sucks - a strong and vibrant independent Chrysler would be awesome. Clearly I'd like to see GM survive and thrive over the next few years, but as a true blue American car enthusiast, I'd be very disappointed at seeing Chrysler go away because GM needed the cash. To be perfectly honest, I actually think some of the coolest vehicles on the road these days are Chrysler products - the 300C and Dodge Charger are cool, the Jeep Wrangler and Cherokee and Wrangler are both really cool, and ...oh, wait, okay, those are the only Chrysler products I like - but still, I'd hate to see anyone take them over right now and destroy them.

I dunno, the whole demise of the American auto industry really bugs the hell out of me.

:alcoholic:

Edited by gmcbob
Link to post
Share on other sites

"Plymouth, AMC, Studebaker, Oldsmobile, Eagle Packard, and Hudson all had history too, and they are all gone. "

And at least 100 more names that died during the Great Depression. Plymouth and AMC were down to forgettable products the last 10 years they were still clinging to life.

But, I do not want to see GM try to merge with Mopar, let them die off and then get the left overs in a fire sale. That way no need to have to buy off dealers.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hahahaa....

BigPoncho: I 'm shocked I neglected to make that same comment about W.P. Chrysler.

Talk about a golden parachute. :P

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wall Street is developing a huge GM/Chrysler boner it seems.

So the momentum is building and is pushing a pressure wave of inevitability before it.

Lenders eager for Chrysler-GM deal- WSJ

Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:02am EDT

Oct 17 (Reuters) - Potential lenders are providing strong support for General Motors Corp (GM.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) and Chrysler LLC's merger talks and are eager to see a deal done, the Wall Street Journal said.

Major banks that have long lent to both companies, such as JPMorgan Chase & Co (JPM.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) are keen to do a deal to help reduce exposure to the auto industry, the paper said...

read more:

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews...20081017?rpc=44

I'm a GM-lifer. The relationship's been symbiotic. I labored, they compensated me. I did love many aspects of my job throughout the years. The camaraderie and the challenges of the Fisher Body years, the stint in GMSPO, the two assembly plants where I worked. Now GM is preparing to morph into something unrecognizable to but a few. I've a 'vested' interest (literally) in their survival/success. I also have a curiosity for seeing what comes next. So I'll stayed tuned for the next episode in the saga.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If this does happen, I have to say, may make me not buy another American car.

Ridiculous? Sure but so is everything going on in the American automotive industry anyhow.

If Chrysler goes, then I'll go for good too.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Wall Street is developing a huge GM/Chrysler boner it seems.

So the momentum is building and is pushing a pressure wave of inevitability before it.

Lenders eager for Chrysler-GM deal- WSJ

Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:02am EDT

Oct 17 (Reuters) - Potential lenders are providing strong support for General Motors Corp (GM.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) and Chrysler LLC's merger talks and are eager to see a deal done, the Wall Street Journal said.

Major banks that have long lent to both companies, such as JPMorgan Chase & Co (JPM.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) are keen to do a deal to help reduce exposure to the auto industry, the paper said...

read more:

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews...20081017?rpc=44

I'm a GM-lifer. The relationship's been symbiotic. I labored, they compensated me. I did love many aspects of my job throughout the years. The camaraderie and the challenges of the Fisher Body years, the stint in GMSPO, the two assembly plants where I worked. Now GM is preparing to morph into something unrecognizable to but a few. I've a 'vested' interest (literally) in their survival/success. I also have a curiosity for seeing what comes next. So I'll stayed tuned for the next episode in the saga.

As I've stated elsewhere, there's no reason for GM to do this...which means someone else (Cerberus, ahem) is MAKING them do it.

A 3way deal that sells a division (Jeep) on the way out the door might ease the burden---but this is a Mafia-style hit, not a biz decision.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why doesn't the government use Conrail as an example of what to do with Chrysler?

Those of you that aren't railfans: When the smaller railroads in the northeast all began failing, the government bought them all out and formed Conrail (Consolidated Rail Corporation) with the eventual intent to divide the assests among OTHER healthy RR companies.

In 1999, they did just that. Norfolk-Southern (originally 2 companies: Norfolk & Western and Southern) took roughly half of the company and CSX (Originally the Seaboard System and the Chessie System) took the other half.

That way, maybe more of the company could be saved AND GM (and hopefully Ford) could take on the aspects of the business that will benefit them, instead of make the ship sink faster (In GM's case)

I could see GM acquiring Jeep and if Ford is REALLY serious about pushing Lincoln up market again, it could certainly use Chrysler. (Or Dodge, but it'd have to completely change the image of the division)

The only piece that doesn't fit is the Dodge brand.

Maybe that's where Nissan fits into the deal. They could keep pushing Infiniti up market, then put Nissan mid-market and use Dodge to battle Ford and Chevrolet. (Because we all know that americans are too stupid to see that the Dodge name has more prestige than the Nissan name)

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
Link to post
Share on other sites
Many industry experts believe GM's interest in Chrysler, both now and in 2007, when DaimlerChrysler AG put the American unit up for sale, reflected its goal to reduce the excess capacity in the U.S. auto industry that has hurt all of Detroit's carmakers.

"The others (automakers) will be delighted to have Chrysler just die and take 1.5 million units out of the industry, which is about what the excess is," said Gerald Meyers, former chairman of AMC and now a professor at the University of Michigan.

So GM gets to "Take one for the team" and piss a bunch of loyal customers off (READ: Most of those sales from Chrysler WILL NOT go back to GM) while getting the backlash from the media and while all of Japan and Korea Inc. soak up sales in a market that is already TOO EASY for them to sell in?

As far as management... We'd get Jim Press :)

This week, after GMAC's announcement that it would consider auto loans only for customers with high credit ratings many wondered whether Cerberus was putting pressure on GM.

Of course they are... I said it then, and I'll say it now; Selling 51% of GMAC was BAD FOR BUSINESS. You don't just sell off the profit machine that has been keeping the ship sailing, bad times or not, IMO.

Link to post
Share on other sites

OK......... so GM would get USD 11bn in cash, but how much cash is Chrysler bleeding? How much would it cost to shut down Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep? How much attention would the whole process divert from the task of building better cars with the nameplates GM has at this point in time?

Edited by ZL-1
Link to post
Share on other sites
OK......... so GM would get USD 11bn in cash, but how much cash is Chrysler bleeding? How much would it cost to shut down Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep? How much attention would the whole process divert from the task of building better cars with the nameplates GM has at this point in time?

Z - I see this as silly season. Latest blog was Chry was wanting to sell only Jeep to Renault and Nissan while talks with GM should take two weeks for a decision. Let us think for a minute, if GM wants Chry, why will it not want Jeep which would possibly make sense for GM as many have mentioned? With economy down, people looking into the barrel, such rumors baseless or not seem to be cropping up.

I think GM will be better off hanging to what they have keep their development with E-REV and other products and ride the storm.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Z - I see this as silly season. Latest blog was Chry was wanting to sell only Jeep to Renault and Nissan while talks with GM should take two weeks for a decision. Let us think for a minute, if GM wants Chry, why will it not want Jeep which would possibly make sense for GM as many have mentioned? With economy down, people looking into the barrel, such rumors baseless or not seem to be cropping up.

I think GM will be better off hanging to what they have keep their development with E-REV and other products and ride the storm.

That's my point exactly! It makes no effin' sense, unless GM management wants to fatten the company even more so that a financial-services-like bailout is offered for 'relevance tot he economy' reasons, but really I don't see that happening...

Link to post
Share on other sites
That's my point exactly! It makes no effin' sense, unless GM management wants to fatten the company even more so that a financial-services-like bailout is offered for 'relevance tot he economy' reasons, but really I don't see that happening...

Do you think "street" has some part in it? Will bankrupt auto companies somehow fuel money making for traders?

Edited by smallchevy
Link to post
Share on other sites
Why doesn't the government use Conrail as an example of what to do with Chrysler?

Those of you that aren't railfans: When the smaller railroads in the northeast all began failing, the government bought them all out and formed Conrail (Consolidated Rail Corporation) with the eventual intent to divide the assests among OTHER healthy RR companies.

In 1999, they did just that. Norfolk-Southern (originally 2 companies: Norfolk & Western and Southern) took roughly half of the company and CSX (Originally the Seaboard System and the Chessie System) took the other half.

That way, maybe more of the company could be saved AND GM (and hopefully Ford) could take on the aspects of the business that will benefit them, instead of make the ship sink faster (In GM's case)

I could see GM acquiring Jeep and if Ford is REALLY serious about pushing Lincoln up market again, it could certainly use Chrysler. (Or Dodge, but it'd have to completely change the image of the division)

The only piece that doesn't fit is the Dodge brand.

Maybe that's where Nissan fits into the deal. They could keep pushing Infiniti up market, then put Nissan mid-market and use Dodge to battle Ford and Chevrolet. (Because we all know that americans are too stupid to see that the Dodge name has more prestige than the Nissan name)

I AM a railfan, and this is exactly what I was thinking...I didn't want to write this idea up because I thought I might look stupid, but to me this is almost the best choice.

Chris

Link to post
Share on other sites
I support Nissan-Renault taking over Chrysler rather than GM.

Sadly enough I would too I guess.

However, I feel that Volkswagen could actually work wonders with Chrysler if they ran it as they do their other brands with "Top hat" Engineering. That could work very well and the cars would be great to drive, and according to what I've herd (and don't believe because of my good Chrysler experiences) the reliability of them couldn't possibly be any worse.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I support Nissan-Renault taking over Chrysler rather than GM.

Although I, too, believe that would be a good merger for all parties, that is one reason GM should merge with Chrysler - to stop a N-R-C merger. I had the opportunity once to take over a competitor but I turned my nose up at the chance: I would be a very rich man today if I had done it.

Now, the real question is where would GM get the resources to 'afford' the merger and would this distract them from the greater issue at hand: surviving the next 18 months?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Although I, too, believe that would be a good merger for all parties, that is one reason GM should merge with Chrysler - to stop a N-R-C merger. I had the opportunity once to take over a competitor but I turned my nose up at the chance: I would be a very rich man today if I had done it.

Now, the real question is where would GM get the resources to 'afford' the merger and would this distract them from the greater issue at hand: surviving the next 18 months?

'BIZ, I think that the banks/financiers etc. are jones-ing for this (GM/Chrysler) real bad for a myriad reasons. I think it will become a reality before the champagne corks pop on New Year's Eve. It remains for we the little people to begin the process of accepting and adjusting so as to be ahead of the curve (or curb if you'd like).

Link to post
Share on other sites
'BIZ, I think that the banks/financiers etc. are jones-ing for this (GM/Chrysler) real bad for a myriad reasons. I think it will become a reality before the champagne corks pop on New Year's Eve. It remains for we the little people to begin the process of accepting and adjusting so as to be ahead of the curve (or curb if you'd like).

Oh I would say it will happen long before New Year's Eve, GM's goal is by Halloween. Let's see how that works out for them, shall we.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh I would say it will happen long before New Year's Eve, GM's goal is by Halloween. Let's see how that works out for them, shall we.

Well it certainly fits my timeline. It's compelling Kabuki theatre for Wall Street's consumption and perhaps in two or three years may be hailed as the right move at the right time.

Right now 'my' Wilmington's scaling back to a single shift in seven weeks. Next move'd be to grant them closed-plant status ahead of their anticipated cessation of operations in the nebulous future of 2011. Sounds like a long way off but it is not. Doraville, GA assembly (now closed as of 09-26-08) had their closed plant status adjudged in August of 2006. I was able to transfer out of there and into Wilmington under those provisions a full 24 months before they shut their doors.

In nearby Newark, DE, Chrysler's on-again-off-again Durango/Aspen assembly line churns out a few Hybrids so as to satisfy the weak demand for an otherwise functional and attractive BOF-SUV. Only 4 years ago, Durango was a hot-ticket. Now see how times have changed. With the overall economy in a pre-reconstructive shambles even if gas were a buck-a-gallon I believe sales of many vehicles would still be slow. We're mired in this slump through the end of next year at least. Let's see if a 'regime-change' post-election will help to stir things up. Or bring us to the brink of another Civil War.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Do you think "street" has some part in it? Will bankrupt auto companies somehow fuel money making for traders?

I honestly don't know, but I think GM is desperate for fresh cash...

Link to post
Share on other sites

If GM does buy Chrysler, how many days do you think it will take them to offer most of it to other companies? Buy it cheap from Cerberus, sell it for billions to someone else to raise money. They can't just shut down Dodge or Chrysler or the DOJ will ask why they should allow the takeover. Is GM already talking to Renault, the Chinese, Hyundai, Mitsubishi or PSA about who wants what pieces?

If Cerberus sells Chrysler to anyone but Great Wall and Chery, you can bet several programs will immediately face the ax—no Chinese small cars, no Chinese pickup, no new midsize platform (everyone except Mitsubishi already has one). The new V6 program will be dead unless Mitsubishi or PSA voice an interest, probably unlikely. GM and Renault will want to cash out of GEMA and the world engine program, PSA won't be interested either since they are talking to BMW. PSA could replace almost the entire Dodge/Chrysler car lineup with rebadged Peugeots and Citroens (homologating them for the US, though expensive would be cheaper than new models, the network is an asset, and a C5 Airdream even sounds like a Chrysler). GM could split the van business with Renault Nissan, an extension of the current European partnership. Nissan would take Dodge trucks rebadging the Ram, Frontier and Nissan commercial van for both brands. GM would demand that Cerberus fund the full pension and healthcare obligations.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh I would say it will happen long before New Year's Eve, GM's goal is by Halloween. Let's see how that works out for them, shall we.

LOL

SURE!!!!!! Let's see if that holds true.

Cerberus is going to let GM "absorb" Chrysler, and they will walk away with GM getting 11 BILLION dollars of cash.

Wow, Cerberus sure is a charitable company!

:rolleyes:

You guys are too funny.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The Detroit Free Press had an article this morning saying that GM thinks it can manage all of Chrysler brands in case of a merger.

If GM keeps all of the divisions and if I were in charge, I would do the following:

1. Immediately drop the Sebring, Avenger, Durango, Aspen, Compass, and Commander.

2. Give Dodge a version of the Cruze and Chrysler a version of the upcoming LaCrosse.

3. Give Dodge the Nissan small car.

4. Give Chevrolet a version of the minivan.

5. Give Buick a version of the 300 to replace the Lucerne.

6. As quickly as possible, replace all Chrysler 4 and V6 engines with GM engines.

7. Drop the Dodge 4.7L V8. It gets no better gas mileage than the Hemi.

8. Keep the Hemi for Dodge Ram, Challenger, Charger, 300C, and Grand Cherokee.

Link to post
Share on other sites
The Detroit Free Press had an article this morning saying that GM thinks it can manage all of Chrysler brands in case of a merger.

If GM keeps all of the divisions and if I were in charge, I would do the following:

1. Immediately drop the Sebring, Avenger, Durango, Aspen, Compass, and Commander.

2. Give Dodge a version of the Cruze and Chrysler a version of the upcoming LaCrosse.

3. Give Dodge the Nissan small car.

4. Give Chevrolet a version of the minivan.

5. Give Buick a version of the 300 to replace the Lucerne.

6. As quickly as possible, replace all Chrysler 4 and V6 engines with GM engines.

7. Drop the Dodge 4.7L V8. It gets no better gas mileage than the Hemi.

8. Keep the Hemi for Dodge Ram, Challenger, Charger, 300C, and Grand Cherokee.

They can't manage the 8 balls they have juggling in the air now, how on earth will they be able to juggle 11 balls? Things will have to go, it's just a matter of time.

They will keep Jeep.

They will keep Ram trucks.

They will keep the Minivans.

They will keep Chrysler's Electric Car development.

They will axe GMC, Pontiac, and what's left of Dodge and Chrysler.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So many of these suggestions fly in the face of criticisms made far & wide & repeatedly. GMC is criticised as 'badge-engineered' & redundant, ignoring the steady fat profit the division makes. Instead, as GM's finances were as in 1968, keeping the Ram truck line is heralded as a potential good move when they share nothing whatsoever. In a period where the truck market is sliding steadily, 'we're' in favor of dropping a successful platform mate & truck line dating back to 1900 to replace it with a completely autonomous line from another company ?? Am I reading this correctly ???

Frankly, I would prefer the GMC name to continue but absorb the Dodge truck in it's next redesign (and the 'GMC' design language go over to Chevy).... but I doubt the money is there to run 2 autonomous truck lines at once these days.

Link to post
Share on other sites
What better way to ask for a bailout from the American government when you represent 2/3 of the American Automotive sector.

apparently GM wants to have access to chrysler's cash and ability to get bailout money....and then wait a couple years and sell them and profit from that.

Let me ask this question, would Jim Press get a role at GM?

Link to post
Share on other sites
I wouldn't look for massive, immediate, changes if this happens. GM will take its time doing whatever they decide to do with Chrysler.

LOL

GM will decide where it's next layoffs are gonna be maybe.......

:AH-HA_wink:

That's about it....

Link to post
Share on other sites

summing things up... this the plan? -

1 ) GM takes the money.

2 ) GM immediately eliminates white-collar redundancy between GM and former Chrysler LLC.

3 ) GM immediately stops all future product development for the Dodge, Chrysler, Pontiac, and GMC brands.

4 ) GM continues Jeep product development.

5 ) GM lets the Chrysler/Dodge/JEEP (CDJ) dealers wither and reduce their number by natural selection.

6 ) GM uses Chrysler minivans and plants to develop and produce (competitor) GM brand versions (circa 2010 debut-probably Chevy & Buick (GL8/Terraza replacement for the US & China. T&C equivalent-possibly keep the name too)

7 ) GM uses Chrysler LX/LY platform and plants to develop and produce (competitor) GM brand versions (circa 2010 debut-Chevy, Buick, & Cadillac versions)

8 ) GM uses Chrysler's hybrid technology and integrates it into GM platforms and brands.

9 ) GM slowly shuts down former Chrysler LLC plants as demand dries up for the various vehicles produced.

10 ) GM offers JEEP at remaining BPG dealers (between 2009-2011.)

11 ) GM offer Buick(new Buick LaCrosse, Regal, and Enclave) and Saturn through remaining CDJ dealers (between 2009-2011.)

12 ) GM offers Saturn at remaining BPG dealers (between 2009-2011.)

13 ) GM begins the phase out of GMC, Pontiac, Chrysler, & Dodge (between 2009-2012.)

14 ) Buick-Saturn-JEEP dealer chain completed around 2012.

Link to post
Share on other sites

And GM may actually get the Chrysler minivans so they can actually reach 60,000 miles without self-destructing like my sisters did.

Link to post
Share on other sites
summing things up... this the plan? -

1 ) GM takes the money.

2 ) GM immediately eliminates white-collar redundancy between GM and former Chrysler LLC.

3 ) GM immediately stops all future product development for the Dodge, Chrysler, Pontiac, and GMC brands.

4 ) GM continues Jeep product development.

5 ) GM lets the Chrysler/Dodge/JEEP (CDJ) dealers wither and reduce their number by natural selection.

6 ) GM uses Chrysler minivans and plants to develop and produce (competitor) GM brand versions (circa 2010 debut-probably Chevy & Buick (GL8/Terraza replacement for the US & China. T&C equivalent-possibly keep the name too)

7 ) GM uses Chrysler LX/LY platform and plants to develop and produce (competitor) GM brand versions (circa 2010 debut-Chevy, Buick, & Cadillac versions)

8 ) GM uses Chrysler's hybrid technology and integrates it into GM platforms and brands.

9 ) GM slowly shuts down former Chrysler LLC plants as demand dries up for the various vehicles produced.

10 ) GM offers JEEP at remaining BPG dealers (between 2009-2011.)

11 ) GM offer Buick(new Buick LaCrosse, Regal, and Enclave) and Saturn through remaining CDJ dealers (between 2009-2011.)

12 ) GM offers Saturn at remaining BPG dealers (between 2009-2011.)

13 ) GM begins the phase out of GMC, Pontiac, Chrysler, & Dodge (between 2009-2012.)

14 ) Buick-Saturn-JEEP dealer chain completed around 2012.

15) GM GOES BANKRUPT.

There, you were missing a step...

Link to post
Share on other sites
There, you were missing a step...

Evan a bankrupt company has an opportunity to recover. An absorbed and dissolved one? Eh... not so much. :deathwatch:

Even though I can conceptualize the absorption of Chrysler, it doesn't mean I agree with it. I'd rather Cerberus turn Chrysler around or die trying. Well, at least be the one responsible for killing Chrysler. GM doesn't need the additional bad press.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Evan a bankrupt company has an opportunity to recover. An absorbed and dissolved one? Eh... not so much. :deathwatch:

Even though I can conceptualize the absorption of Chrysler, it doesn't mean I agree with it. I'd rather Cerberus turn Chrysler around or die trying. Well, at least be the one responsible for killing Chrysler. GM doesn't need the additional bad press.

GM has enough bad press all it's own, and with the economy turning BAD it is THREE American automakers in dire straights.

It seems too many here turn a blind eye to that.

This rumor IF realized will REDUCE domestic automobile production and the jobs that come with it, and further reduce the public's perception of a domestic automaker. Like it or not.

No domestic has been "absorbed and dissolved" yet. Have they?

For GM to even TRY to absorb Chrysler, as you say, when the consensus is there is no good reason- and then try to PRETEND that it is a wise move? Wow. No wonder GM stocks are dumping to 60 year lows, management is still involved in crazy risk taking despite being in dire financial straights.

Looks to me a like a sign that things are going to get even WORSE at GM, and the financial troubles at GM are already staggering.

You do the math. It's NOT good.

Edited by CMG
Link to post
Share on other sites
GM has enough bad press all it's own, and with the economy turning BAD it is THREE American automakers in dire straights.

It seems too many here turn a blind eye to that.

This rumor IF realized will REDUCE domestic automobile production and the jobs that come with it, and further reduce the public's perception of a domestic automaker. Like it or not.

No domestic has been "absorbed and dissolved" yet. Have they?

Yes they have... several times. Too many times to count. Just pretend to know history. Okay?

By the way... the reduction will happen regardless of this acquisition. Chrysler is collapsing under its own weight and Cerberus knows it can't save it in this market climate. Why else would Chrysler be pawned off by Cerberus after just a year of ownership? That's the reality.

GM and Ford are suffering from a similar situation, but have global operations to fall back on. Even if NA operations go bankrupt, the international operations can step in and assume management in the reorganization. Yes, I know the financial mess has traveled globally, but you can't assume the results in the US are going to be the results elsewhere. Factors are different. Each region needs to be managed separately.

For GM to even TRY to absorb Chrysler, as you say, when the consensus is there is no good reason- and then try to PRETEND that it is a wise move? Wow. No wonder GM stocks are dumping to 60 year lows, management is still involved in crazy risk taking despite being in dire financial straights.

Looks to me a like a sign that things are going to get even WORSE at GM, and the financial troubles at GM are already staggering.

You do the math. It's NOT good.

But... But... But... aren't you the one who's been telling us for the past week that this is just rumor mill and media spin? Did you just catch up to the rest of us? We've been seriously gnawing on this situation for a while now while you've been in denial. We've been saying for a year that Chrysler was in the worst position of the Big Three while you've been trying to convince us we're wrong. Who's had "Automaker blindness"?

Be glad someone is even considering them in today's climate. If I were GM or Nissan-Renault, I'd just step back and let them collapse.

Link to post
Share on other sites
But... But... But... aren't you the one who's been telling us for the past week that this is just rumor mill and media spin? Did you just catch up to the rest of us? We've been seriously gnawing on this situation for a while now while you've been in denial. We've been saying for a year that Chrysler was in the worst position of the Big Three while you've been trying to convince us we're wrong. Who's had "Automaker blindness"?

When the same media reports two conflicting stories, I would have to say the media was wrong in ONE of those stories...?

:AH-HA_wink:

I haven't been in "denial" of anything. I think a merger between Cerberus and GM would be BAD for the domestic auto market. Simple as that.

If you think it would be GOOD for the domestic auto market, let me know HOW you think it would be good for the domestic auto market.

Most people who post on automotive enthusiast forums have "automaker blindness" one way or another. I'm blindy domestic if anything.

You guys carry on, I'll just watch! Do your thing!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems very possible.

Cerberus is giving GM the opportunity to do the entire domestic auto industry a favor -- slash excess vehicle production. Even when sales were high the industry was making too many vehicles. Now, maybe GM won't have to offer as much in incentives once the recession passes = higher profits.

In the meantime, I can see GM shutting down/selling all of Chrysler's plants except Belvidere (Patriot, new Grand Cherokee moved from Jefferson, Caliber and Compass cancelled), Brampton (Challenger, Charger, 300), Toledo (Wrangler, Liberty), Windsor (minivans), Warren or Saltillo (drastically reduced output of Ram and variants). This will help profitability for GM's small, mid-sized cars and full-sized trucks.

summing things up... this the plan? -

1 ) GM takes the money.

2 ) GM immediately eliminates white-collar redundancy between GM and former Chrysler LLC.

3 ) GM immediately stops all future product development for the Dodge, Chrysler, Pontiac, and GMC brands.

4 ) GM continues Jeep product development.

5 ) GM lets the Chrysler/Dodge/JEEP (CDJ) dealers wither and reduce their number by natural selection.

6 ) GM uses Chrysler minivans and plants to develop and produce (competitor) GM brand versions (circa 2010 debut-probably Chevy & Buick (GL8/Terraza replacement for the US & China. T&C equivalent-possibly keep the name too)

7 ) GM uses Chrysler LX/LY platform and plants to develop and produce (competitor) GM brand versions (circa 2010 debut-Chevy, Buick, & Cadillac versions)

8 ) GM uses Chrysler's hybrid technology and integrates it into GM platforms and brands.

9 ) GM slowly shuts down former Chrysler LLC plants as demand dries up for the various vehicles produced.

10 ) GM offers JEEP at remaining BPG dealers (between 2009-2011.)

11 ) GM offer Buick(new Buick LaCrosse, Regal, and Enclave) and Saturn through remaining CDJ dealers (between 2009-2011.)

12 ) GM offers Saturn at remaining BPG dealers (between 2009-2011.)

13 ) GM begins the phase out of GMC, Pontiac, Chrysler, & Dodge (between 2009-2012.)

14 ) Buick-Saturn-JEEP dealer chain completed around 2012.

Edited by buyacargetacheck
Link to post
Share on other sites

The will keep Jeep, sell Dodge trucks to Nissan (who will be reselling them anyway and sharing engines), share the vans, kill the Sprinter, sell Chrysler and the remains of Dodge (perhaps to Renault, perhaps to several parties) sell GEMA etc.. Aspen, Durango, Dakota, Compass, PT Cruiser, Sebring etc. are dead, Although they may find buyers for the Sebring, Compass and PT Cruiser tooling. The Chinese will ask about the engine plants or tooling but won't offer much money, and they may even find a buyer for the Dakota tooling.

If I was running Mitsubishi I'd be asking how cheaply I could get the Dodge car and crossover lineup (most of which is already Mitsubishi-based) and the Phoenix V6 program, GAZ and I'd be asking about the 300 to replace the Volga and Chrysler's share in the world engine, PSA and the Chrysler brand's North American operations (they bought almost everything else in the '70s) to sell rebadged Citroens and the Viper platform as a showcase for the V12 turbodiesel (a modern, Peugeot-badged Talbot Lago).

If the banks want to engineer a merger they should be looking at combining Isuzu, Navistar, Iveco and GM's North and South American medium truck business (in exchange for cash and Navistar's light diesel operations). That's a much-needed combination offering global reach, immense synergies, a good return and low risk, placing the combined entity (International VEhicle COrp. is an obvious name choice) in a better position v. Volvo and Daimler.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I honestly think this whole thing is just absurd. At this point, I don't give a $h! what happens because at the end of the day I'm still going to be in LA, driving my Aurora, and there will be a bottle of Maker's Mark and some cigarettes waiting back at the apartment.

I'm not surprised Chrysler's going out; that's been a long time coming. They have no presence outside of North America, they have had to partner up with Mitsubishi for decades to develop bread and butter product, the quality has been $h!eous, and the whole thing with D-B was just a huge clusterf@#k.

GM is a whole different story, except it isn't. I just don't see the actual value of two incompetent companies joining...it's almost like the worst of both worlds.

Link to post
Share on other sites

To me if this does happen it will be a long time coming. How many times can you almost die and be brought back to life? They have had nine lives and they are on life number 9. I am sure the Chrysler minivans are very nice. Maybe GM can make them so they last longer than 60,000 miles before they self destruct like so many of the newer ones seem to do. Trying to wonder what else is useful from Chrysler? If I think of something I will get back to you all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Chrysler Jeep and Dodge do have a presence outside North America in both RHD and LHD markets, and unlike other companies building cars in NA has an extensive export program, their only source of growth. The Caravan and Voyager in particular are popular worldwide, and although the segment is not as strong elsewhere the Chrysler models have been widely recognized around the world as the most popular or award winning large MPVs. Dodge has also been launched in global markets—I regularly see the Nitro and Caliber and the Chrysler Voyager (formerly an Austrian-built Plymouth with a Chrysler logo but now the Town and Country by another name) has been the best selling minivan in the Austalian market, or near to it, despite its rather high asking price.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Point taken. I will say, though, that in my travels abroad, particularly in Europe, I have seen nary a Chrysler or Dodge branded vehicle. Exports may be their only source of growth, but what kind of growth is it? Is it the kind of growth that Cadillac has seen in Europe? By that I mean, is Chrysler's growth the result of having little else to go but up?

Kinda like Suzuki in the US...sure, they have a presence in the physical sense...but they have no real presence in the marketplace--Suzuki definitely goes in the "Wait...they still sell those?" column.

Link to post
Share on other sites
So many of these suggestions fly in the face of criticisms made far & wide & repeatedly. GMC is criticised as 'badge-engineered' & redundant, ignoring the steady fat profit the division makes. Instead, as GM's finances were as in 1968, keeping the Ram truck line is heralded as a potential good move when they share nothing whatsoever. In a period where the truck market is sliding steadily, 'we're' in favor of dropping a successful platform mate & truck line dating back to 1900 to replace it with a completely autonomous line from another company ?? Am I reading this correctly ???

Frankly, I would prefer the GMC name to continue but absorb the Dodge truck in it's next redesign (and the 'GMC' design language go over to Chevy).... but I doubt the money is there to run 2 autonomous truck lines at once these days.

+1

Link to post
Share on other sites
Point taken. I will say, though, that in my travels abroad, particularly in Europe, I have seen nary a Chrysler or Dodge branded vehicle. Exports may be their only source of growth, but what kind of growth is it? Is it the kind of growth that Cadillac has seen in Europe? By that I mean, is Chrysler's growth the result of having little else to go but up?

Kinda like Suzuki in the US...sure, they have a presence in the physical sense...but they have no real presence in the marketplace--Suzuki definitely goes in the "Wait...they still sell those?" column.

Yeah, not many...I've seen a few Chrysler Neons, 300s, and Sebring convertibles in Europe over the last few years...a lot of Jeeps, though...the old style XJ Cherokees, the Liberty (aka Cherokee), Wranglers, and a lot of Grand Cherokee Limiteds.

Link to post
Share on other sites
there will be a bottle of Maker's Mark and some cigarettes waiting back at the apartment.

Good taste... definitely try Woodford Reserve if you haven't already. :alcoholic:

I noticed several Jeeps in England. Not so much on the mainland.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Even though our market it puny, the Ram outsells the Silverado in Canada. <_< It's GMC that is the one to beat here.

Just thought I'd throw that out there..................

Link to post
Share on other sites
What better way to ask for a bailout from the American government when you represent 2/3 of the American Automotive sector.

An attempt at a power play during an election year, or right after a new President is elected and has to start showing results... Who would have thought that would ever happen?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Even though our market it puny, the Ram outsells the Silverado in Canada. <_< It's GMC that is the one to beat here.

Just thought I'd throw that out there..................

Really? Interesting....GMC sells a fraction of what Chevy does in the US, I think.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The LH cars IMHO don't have good resale value AT ALL, though. Going to the local pick-and -pull to help a guy pull a hood and fender for a Fox body stang, I noticed a bunch of LH cars, many of them newer than 2000 and a few of them with under 100k on the clock.

Guy at the yard said they were crushing them whole, there was very little demand for the cars or their parts.

At another yard I was getting some other parts, and another LH car came in, clean, ran, was crushed before they had even pulled the lic. plates.

I've seen the FWD letter cars in decent shape sell for under 2k around here. Great design...no one wants them.

The RWD cars, OTOH, seem to bring a pretty good resale.

Lower sales, but a more desireable car.

Chris

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure the LX cars are popular, but they sure didnt 'save Detroit, nor did they usher in the 'return of RWD for everyone'.

OTOH, GM RWD fans may finally see the return of the Caprice/Roadmaster/Fleetwood, if GM buys the LX and changes badges.

Edited by Chicagoland
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



About us

CheersandGears.com - Founded 2001

We ♥ Cars

Get in touch

Follow us

Recent tweets

facebook

×
×
  • Create New...