The Lounge

Not important part (background): So I took this class this semester called Conceptual Ideation. Basically it's all about how to come up with good original ideas for art (which I could use the help in). For our first project, the teacher asked us to do a "redux" of something we failed at in the past. I chose to revisit the Aveo redesign I submitted for a C&G sketch competition a few years ago, which was undeniably very, very bad. My aim is to design a subcompact car that is typically practical and economical, but looks like it can beat every other subcompact to a pulp. The teacher was encouraging me to make something as wild and futuristic as I could imagine, b…

You watch like 10 different video reactions in a row to 2 girls 1 cup: poo-nography (SFW, BTW)

Well, as most of your know (or maybe don't know), I've been driving around in Chevy Luminas since I was a youngin' with a learner's permit. My first car was a '90 Euro, and my current is a '94 Euro, both 4-door sedans with the 3100. I've had the '94 now for 5 years and have racked on 70,000 additional miles (bought it with 80,000 originally). I've been saving up and am finally going to replace the old jalopy, although it will still be kept in the family as a beater car back home. It has an AC leak that will cost more than the car with worth to repair, and the rust and hail damage are major chick repellents. At the Ford dealer back home, there is a 2001 Lincoln LS V8…

I think a short discussion in Random Thoughts requires a separate thread. Now the questions is: how much an auto enthusiast should spend on a vehicle? Now I am not talking in hard numbers but in percentage of ones income. The financial wisdom (on all these fancy financial advice websites) states that a vehicle loan payment should not be more than 10% of ones take home income, and total auto expenses (payment, insurance, gas, etc) should not be more than 20% of the take home income. This is a common financial advice for general public. The question is, as an auto enthusiasts should we spend more on vehicles since for us it is more than just an appliance …

Modded '05 STi for $2900 Response from me emailing her: My reply: And her response to that: My response: PICTURES: http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5831/15946237bn8.jpg http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/1552/98596603wt1.jpg http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/1125/55954742qg8.jpg http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/870/61470335wg4.jpg http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/7595/14355163jc3.jpg http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/6083/27932785yq4.jpg http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/8192/57344254rt2.jpg http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/8666/59786887ao0.jpg http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/781/95908753xk7.jpg htt…

For the second time in one week, I've locked my keys in the Cutlass. The third time, overall. And, of course, I was too stubborn to get an extra set made after the first and second times. I'm likely to repeat this and add another tally for the week. The good new is... I've become a master at breaking into it. Once I have the right tool (read: a metal hanger), it doesn't take much. Since I'm probably going to be too stubborn to actually go out and get an extra key made, I ought to just stick a hanger to my frame. I should be golden. *shakes head* I miss power locks.

...spring/summer...?! Baseball players are reporting to training camp. Spring Training is just around the bend. The Arizona Cactus and Florida Grapefruit Leagues are about to start. And ... spring is in the air. Well, maybe not yet. But...hope springs eternal.... Time to share five "truths...learned the hard way" from _The Cubs Fan's Little Book Of Wisdom_ by Jim Langford.... And, for good measure, a "winter sport" quote from the 1980 US Olympic Hockey Team win in Lake Placid: So ... while the soon-to-be-here spring reminds me that I haven't completed much of what I wanted to this winter (anyone else in the same boat?) ... who el…

Thanks Fly!

Did anyone see this episode? Its sooo funny...I gotta catch part 2 next week. http://www.fox.com/tradingspouses/video.htm

I thought we were planning for it, but I guess that fell apart...? What happened?

Back when I was a kid, I thought it was cool and liked it. But since now I drive on my own, it's not that great of an idea actually if you think about it. When you're waiting in line, you're using your own gas when you keep your engine idle. And at busy hours, it can take long. Not to mention the greenhouse gas that you emit into the environment while you idle (Unless, of course, you're driving an EV1). With gas prices these days, I can imagine how much money I waste from idling in a drive-thru line. Also, another problem I figured is, if they gave you the wrong stuff or something's missing in your bag, you would have to run back and ask them. Double the worse, if you…

I'm probably about to make two stupid moves before going into college, one of them being me buying a brand-new twenty-one thousand dollar Camaro. Well, chances are I'm going to make another stupid move on top of that. Meet the two cars that qualify for my second mistake. 1967 Chevrolet Camaro, 327 V8: 1967 Pontiac Firebird, 350 V8: The cost of both cars are $4,500. Both cars are roughly in the same shape: mild amounts of rust, the floorboards rotting away to nothing (as you can see in the second-to-last pics in both sets), but I know the Camaro's 327 runs pretty well and could make for a better daily driver during restoratio…

WOW! I happened to be working on something else and got around to some web-surfing because my "leadership ethics" chapters get boring every once in a while. Somehow, I got onto the Presidential electiong prognostications. In a nutshell, nobody that I consider to be fairly conventional is in a front runner position. This leaves me perplexed. On the Democratic side, Hillary is a obviously a woman and Obama is obviously of mixed race. Not only that, there are so many other contenders that no one knows how their pie will be split up. On the Republican side, Giuliani has had an interesting personal life in terms of number of marriages and Romney from Mass. is Mormon, wh…

Well, in a couple of hours I'll be heading off to France for the month of June. I'm going through my university's study abroad program; I'll be staying with a host family in Rennes and living a more cultured life for a few weeks. I probably won't have Internet over there, so hopefully I don't miss anything major.

What is the worst thing you've ever done to a car to make it workable? i.e. I don't have the money to fix it right, so out comes the duct tape. Worst for me wasn't my car, but I helped my buddy do it... He had a '96 Cavalier. The front section on the frames of the J-bodies are extremely weak. If you hit anything in the front, the whole front of the car will come back and the door will buckle the quarter panel the next time you open it (seen this a few times!). This was not what happened to him, however. This was even worse - 2 people got in a fight beside his car while the door was open, and one of them got pushed in to the inside of the door, pushin…

wellllllllll ive been searching for a daily driver for a while, so i can take the nova off the road to work on it. While i was searching for a `cheap,6 banger daily driver, i found a BOF, RWD, V8 toy that i just couldnt pass up. It looks like BV's beast, only it actually moves under its own power while most G-Bodys locally are rotted by now, this one has escaped the ravages of time. i went to go look at it yesterday, gave the guy a deposit and i pick it up on sunday i cant wait! heres the info from the craigslist Ad, until i get some pics of my own... i can tell you, it looks even better then the pics! Interior looks even better then the pictures show …

All of the sudden I am having tons of trouble viewing certain websites. Unfortunately, one of them is CZ28.com - a site I really enjoy. It seems like only those sites with offsite linked ads are giving me trouble, especially "ads by Google". CZ28 has been one of the most reliable sites I've ever been on until now. This change came at me "out of the blue" and I can't figure out what the trouble is. Pages can literally take minutes to load if these ads are present, but other pages of the same site without ads seem fine. WTF?

I do. Shaved almonds are excellent in yogurt, or on top of ice cream, or even on cereal. And they're good for you, too.

I have this thing about car carriers, ever since I was little. I have a small collection of photos, but they seem hard to find. If you have any to share, I'd appreciate it.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/24/lego-my-v8-engine/

I loaded up on THREE night classes (9 semester credits) and should wrap up this degree in mid-May. Last night was my last mid-term. Kind of tough, actually. So, now it's time to go away. I leave for Las Vegas on Sunday (should be toasty) and then for LA on Wednesday, triangulating back up next Saturday. Booked a while ago so I got real cheap fares (each leg under $ 100). I am itching for some poolside r & r and sunshine. How about those of you celebrating Spring Break? Any plans?

Inspired by Camino's posting tonight, I think we can have a CL thread, like car spotting, but cool stuff on CL in your neck of the woods. 1951 Ford pickup '72 Cutlass '78 Cutlass Supreme Nova from hell '79 LeSabre '64 Corvair *WANT* '87 Blazer '76 Nova Kinda '71 Monte Carlo '47 Caddy limo '30 Model A Roadster '78 Nova '69 LTD

Love this car, the 2006 Fisker Latigo CS:

Has anyone played this video game, 'Rock Band'? Other versions? I did for the first time at a house party, and it sure was fun.

Last night I went out with our boy in his 2007 acura tl (little over 5500 miles). While in the car I was struck by how many things just don’t fit right, how it squeaks over bumps, and how it has issues. 1. When accelerating it makes a grinding sound. Something he is taking it in for. 2. The right rear quarter panel on the outside does not lineup with the bumper. Bad enough that he is going to make the dealer fix it. He has seen multiple other tls with the same problem so he is not sure they can line it up. 3. The dash is lumpy on the passenger’s side. 4. The upper part of center console is wavy where it meets the dash. It looks like it’s been left out in the su…

I have traveled around the world, here are my top three cities that I call home away from home. What world cities do you like? 1. Rome, Italy 2. Quito, Ecuador 3. Alexandria, Egypt Honorable mentions: Zurich, Switzerland Santiago, Chile

Well ho ho ho y'all, it's time to close out another year of car spotting. Post your cool sleigh sightings here!

Hellllllllo ladies and gents(actually not sure if I have run into any ladies here..lol) Well I've done this one other time somewhere else and I thought it was a fun idea because everybody seems to like to tout their favorite truck as "the best" but that isn't true at all. They all have highs and lows but if put together you could make the perfect truck. What pieces off of what trucks would you put together to make your perfect half ton truck. Which engine, cab, transmission, bed, color, infotainment, interior configuration, etc. would you put together to make your perfect truck? Everybody's situation is different so some may want the GM 6.2 and others may want the For…

A little history leason on me, I have a son freshman in college living at home to save money. (It is smart and works for our family.) I have a daughter yet in highschool as a soph she will turn 16 in March. Of course the car-debate will arise, I have bought 3 cars in the past 7 years very unlike me I do buy in spurts, but I think I am stuck getting another one for her or my son. That is a fact I guess, but what to get. My wife said get a Sunfire or Cobalt, I would rather get something larger and older for the same or less money. My son is a Pontiac guy at heart but likes Chevy too. I don't want another Impala from the same generation or a Bonneville. My son likes the 1996…

Rain and mud, rain and mud, rain and mud. Now getting some warm sunny weather. 3-4 days a week I'm down at my mud farm working to clean up, clean out, and get my stuff out of the muck in preparation to unload it all. My sister and I have been able to find a fair number of old family photos and mementos. Now that it's warmer and dryer, I've been trying to get my late brother's vehicles up and running, so far no luck on getting most to start. Bought a few batteries, been trying to charge up others. Did get the '09 Ranger running and outside. I've found the keys to over half of them, got a locksmith to make keys for more last week. He couldn't key two of the mo…

*warning...can get a bit graphic* As some of you may know, I am the forum virgin around here You know the story...18, never been kissed, never been in a relationship, never had sex, yadda yadda yadda... Well, anyways...So I have this friend...we have known eachother for a while now. I'd say we're pretty good friends even though we don't see eachother a whole lot. We kinda always had a little crush on eachother...nothing major, nothing serious...something that a little making out would fufill. We've been in many situations together where we could've taken advantage of eachother's company...why nothing ever happened earlier I'll never know...but whatever. So we were …

This "iffyness" on Zeta is making me want to give up on new cars. My whole life I have watched cars I like get cancelled and replaced by soulless FWD blobs. Then, GM comes-up with Zeta and all is well. Then, Zeta is put on hold. Then on hold again. I'm tired of freakin' waiting! At least old cars can bring a smile to my face. Maybe I'll just disappear into the barn and concentrate on my projects. Call me when the real cars are ready.

I'm interested in why most people here like the brand you do, what 1st drew you to the brand you like, and how old were you when you 1st got hooked on the brand?

Leave for So. Fla. tomorrow at 6:00 am + (all day going West to East). 4 days in So. Fla. incl. Memorial Day 3 days in the Panhandle 3 days in Atlanta (lived there for 2 years - retracing some steps, seeing some friends) Will try to stay off C&G (need a break from Chargerino et. al.). J/K. Just some chill time...not even any books. Any plans for Memorial Day or any of the summer holidays? Y'all be cool.

Both? I guess? I mean, just watch a few of these and tell me with a straight and honest face that you didn't giggle like a school girl at a One Direction concert at least one time. Here's a review for the Saturn L-Series that also informs us that the Catera was "Cadillac's Chris Gaines album." I have no words. This one ... would never meet John Davis's standards. No, not the one from the metal band that misspelled the name of a four-letter vegetable so that they could brand their music as edgy. I mean the bald one that's on PBS and chatters on about the newest Honda Accord with the sterility of a post-vasectomy middle-aged man cowering beneath a set of bleach…

Curious to hear some takes on this.....

I mad a list of what car names mean, or i would assume cause i dont know for sure if thats why they actualy call this car that name.....i used only the bigger car companys so far, maybe ill add more when i have more time. BTW be prepared for spelling errors. Buick- Named after David Dunbar Buick. Lacrosse- a game invented by American indians; now played by two teams who use long-handled rackets to catch and carry and throw the ball toward the opponents goal. Lucerne- A city of central Switzerland on the northern shore of the Lake of Lucerne, an irregularly shaped lake surrounded by mountains. The city developed around a monastery founded in the eighth century and is a …

I think that says it all thanks again guys. My son wanted to thank you all too. He posts sometimes under my name and did the Chicago Autoshow thing for us. **Good kid...** Sorry my son typed it up there is a spelling error or two. He is just learning photoshop and doesn't proof read just like me.

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID...NEWS07/80913011 kinda overshadowed by Ike. LOS ANGELES-- Emergency crews found more victims early today, boosting the death toll to 17, as they delicately picked apart the mangled wreckage of a commuter train that collided head-on with a freight train on the same track. Advertisement More victims were feared trapped in the wrecked Metrolink commuter train. About 135 people were injured. The impact rammed the Metrolink engine backward into a passenger car, which rested on its side with the engine still inside it early today, and accordioned the freight train cars. Two other Metrolink cars remained upright. Crews had t…

So this winter's project is to redo my interior to become a different 2-tone...since I've never been fond of the gray. My choices are either Dark Slate/Taupe or Dark Slate/Tan. I've done two chops: one of another member's taupe interior and one of my interior. Which do you prefer? #1 #2

WILMINGTON, Del. - A sixth-grade science teacher who was accused of having sex with a 13-year-old student has been sentenced to 10 years in prison. Rachel L. Holt, 35, had pleaded guilty to second-degree rape. She sobbed in court Friday as Superior Court Judge Calvin L. Scott gave her the mandatory minimum sentence. Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17669656/ Sex and Alcohol? What I want to know is, where were these teachers when I was in school here? I wish someone had taken my innocence away like that!!!!!

I found this old 1989 Dakota Sport in an empty lot with some other junkers, Golf, 2 Aerostars, and a 94 Cavalier with a huge whole in the drivers door. I actually went to check out the Cavalier but this. It is in bad shape but the body isnt too bad on it. It has rust on the rockers (not eating away) and the paint is peeling but on trucks, most stuff is replaceable compared to a unibody. The biggest thing that concerns me is the crack in the windshield and I dont know how it runs. However, I have always loved these Dakotas.

Hello, my name is Drew and I am a long-time gearhead. I grew up in a mainly GM household, though my wife and I have been driving Chrysler products over the past couple of decades (more about that in a later post, perhaps--but suffice it to say, they do make a mighty good minivan). I'm still a fan of GM vehicles, both old and new. Heck, I'm a fan of almost all of the domestic cars when it comes down to it! Right now, we're looking at either a Cobalt or Malibu as a possible new car purchase early next year. For many years, I've been a member of the "Allpar" forum that serves as a discussion site for Chrysler products. I'm happy to find…

Now the Challenger! I saw it on the homepage. This is getting out of hand. Have auto designers lost their creativity to the point that they have to re-release such literal translations of old classics? Granted, the Camaro is the best looking of the lot. But the Mustang, the TBird and the Challenger? Way too similar. Heck, the Mustang's dash is an almost direct rip-off. I said NO. We need some fresh pony car designs.

Assuming that you can start from scratch, how would you formulate a platform for a third party? Just to get started: - repeal the Patriot act - eliminate income tax - legalize recreational drug use - have the next session of congress spend its time repealing laws instead of writing new ones - base the party on the real world expansion of personal freedom in everyday life. ( to reduce the ever-increasing big brotherism of the present). - the party would be entirely " faith blind" with religion not getting a place at the table. A truly secular philosophy of government.

I don't even know if anyone on here will remember me, but I used to be a frequent guest. I still check in on the topics from time to time, but find myself not having the time to respond to anything! LOL When I started contributing to Cheers and Gears, I was in car sales for GM, later went on to be a Subprime Lender, then Lease Manager, and now Business Manager, at a Chev Pontiac Buick GMC Store. I still learn a ton from reading the posts on this site. Anyway, just wanted to say hi....

No doubt about it, Mazda and Porsche....after that VW is a distant third, Ford a distant Forth, and.... there are other car makers on the planet? Seriously, GM, Porsche and Mazda are my big thee. Yours?

Well, I'd been thinking of it for a while, so today I went to Target (french pronunciation) and bought myself a breadmaker. It seemed simple enough, I thought. Then I unpacked it. The instruction manual is like an inch thick. What have I gotten myself in to? Does anyone else have a breadmaker? If so, how's it been to own?

Hmm... could look nice in my driveway...

I did this way back at the old forums, so what the hell? I'll bring it back. Feel free to post anything about music. The instruments you play, the music you love, the song you're listening to right now. Feel free to bash bands you hate, just don't direct it at anyone. I'd like to see this thread stay clean. Have fun! B)

Okay, okay... here's the deal. I am finally going to take the test to get my driver's license. FINALLY!!! :D Anyways, there is one detail that I am very confused about. Nobody in my family can give me a straight answer about it. The parking/emergency brake. Am I supposed to use it when I park... in an automatic transmission car? Yes? No? ...I need an answer, please. Now... to get everybody caught up on why it has taken so long. First, I didn't take the permit test a good month or so after my B-day... because of my parents. Then when it came time to take the license test... my parents cancelled it because of my aunt's wedding which was a few d…

http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/cto/1484834438.html

Under Construction. Pictures coming soon... :useless:

I have a couple of meetings/classes/hobbies I go to in the evenings in my spare time after work. This lady runs one of them. She's pretty cool. However, she just called me to tell me about this chick she wants to invite to the next one and part of the thing is that she would like this chick to meet me. Un-f*cking-believable. It's too late. I'm sure this chick will come to the next meeting. This is MY time to unwind and I don't go to "mind expanding" events to meet people, other than on a platonic level. This changes the complexion of this event for me. Have you guys experienced this? This ridiculous need to matchmake. Not only that, what I have found every ti…

OK Vipes, dont say I never did anything for ya: http://www.howardroffman.com/tales_html/TA04.html http://www.howardroffman.com/other_html/OW02.html

In recent years my wife and I have had GREAT luck with the GM dealers (besides the Saturn dealer). Don't get me wrong, they've made mistakes but they always make amends for their error. Most importantly they ALWAYS make sure to provide professional customer service. If I wasn't such a GM fan I would have headed down to the toyota dealer to trade in my Buick by now. Not because the car isn't great, which it is. But because of POOR customer service. The story is long. For those that have time (also very rough as I wrote quickly with little regard to grammar and such) . . . My experience with the Buick/Cadillac/GMC/Pontiac Dealer in McMinnville, OR – Larsen Motor…

First time in my university career life that I don't need to go to classes because of this. But by the look of things, there's only a warning, and looking outside the window there's hardly any snow.

Do you think that America like Britian and Rome was losing its grip as a superpower,with all the problems it has with its manufacturing,war in Iraq.Are we seeing the emergence of a new super power in industy and defense CHINA

Basically, this is a spinoff of the car spotting thread. Whereas in it, we include the newest vehicles going on sale that we've started to see, here we talk about vehicles that we've only seen a few of over our lifetime. These are posted in the normal car spotting thread, too, but are generally overlooked. And since they can sometimes be interesting, I think they deserve their own thread. My rare cars are a white Triumph TR7, I actually had to look it up when I saw it, I didn't know what it was. I've seen one red Ferrari 360 Modena heading down the historic district here in Lexington. Two Bentley Continental GTs. Domestics would include the last gen Olds Torona…

Linky On the outside, an unassuming 2002 Ford Focus station wagon, albiet with SVT rims: But pop the hood, and reel back in shock as you're greeted by a 4.6L quad-cam Cobra motor: But it doesn't end there. It's been converted to RWD with a 5-speed transmission, 8.8:1 rear end, and coilovers: And, just as a strange aside, I thought it was funny that the title-holder lives in "$h!tier," CA : It doesn't run, and still needs some electrical and other work done (not to mention oil) to get it there, but basically all the components are in place, and it's almost ready to run. I'd love to know just how much power it makes as well. The sleeper poten…

Working on response to the dream car garage that frisky put up, putting up one of my own. In this challenge....it is the Climate controlled trailer, Climate controlled trailer edition-10 cars worth! First list, cars that you would likely find in the shady lanes mobile home park, which is a clean and decent but not fancy mobile home park outside of Kingsport Tennessee. Or cars you would find on a third rate used car lot. Rules; #1. No muscle cars, or Camaros or mustangs of any variation. This includes cars like the 80's Monte Caro SS and clones of those cars-you can't take a mid 80's Buick and build a Grand National clone. No corvettes either. …

It's sad to say but I will be parting ways with my xB within the next month or two. My family has decided to do some car rearranging in order to cut down on expenses and stop me from killing my sister. We have been sharing the xB for about the past year but she just started paying her portion last month. She doesn't care for it...allows people to smoke in it, trashes it, etc. I can't stand it. After my dad's Altima lease ends early next month he will get my mom's 4Runner, my sister will get a cheap car (under $3,000) and me and my mom will share a car. After doing some research this week we narrowed the field down to: 2008 Saturn Vue Mitsu Outlander Nissan Mu…

A thread about comedians. Who do you like? Who don't you like? Etc. Personally, I've been a fan of Stephen Lynch for a while and seeing him on Comedy Central for the first time in a while last night gave me the idea for this thread. He's a comedic song writer. One simply needs to listen to Hermaphrodite, Lullaby, Grandfather, Talk to Me, Kill a Kitten, or one of his many other songs. They're cleverly written and on top of that, he's a great vocalist and guitarist. Other than him, I'm also a big fan of Carlos Mencia and Lewis Black.

Linkity Saleen S5S Raptor Concept By David Gluckman After teasing us with a concept sketch last month, Saleen has officially unveiled the S5S Raptor concept in New York. We now know that the Saleen 5.0-liter supercharged engine (from whence comes the car's alphanumerics) is a version of the company's tuned Ford V-8 block. Unlike the Mustang creations that Saleen is most famous for, the two-seat car has been designed and styled from the ground up with a mid-engine layout. The chassis is all-aluminum and is wrapped in a composite skin. The Raptor's V-8 runs on E85 ethanol which allows it to produce more power than the similar po…

At around 8:20 PM this evening, the Curse hunted down our Saturn Aura. We were in our local Dairy Queen parking lot when a white Dodge Neon backed out and sucker punched our one month-old car in the left-front quarter, leaving a nasty dent in the bumper cover, leaving the hood off level, and creasing the left front quarter panel. The damage doesn't seem to inhibit the car's ability to drive and function properly, but then again, we've all heard a certain tale of another car famous to our forums having similar damage and declared to be totaled by the insurance company. And all of this coming just two days after we also washed and detailed the car and just one day before…

A '65 Chevelle coupe for sale today. Might have to inquire...

Thanksgiving has now passed, but not without some pain. Well, here's what has all happened... First off, it started out bad. My house only has one bathroom and that's for four people. My mom, just like any other women, takes FOREVER. I hade to wait until the very last moment to take a shower, get ready, and all that crap. So I'm being yelled at for it, yet I couldn't get in the bathroom. Okay... I couldn't even shave as I planned to (I let my facial hair grow... shave it every week or so). That and I have to wear what my mom wants me to. In this case, a striped long sleeved button down shirt. Not that there's anything wrong with it but I just don&…

For me, it's easy...Mitsubishi Lancer. Ugly as sin. Pick just one car for this thread please.... Chris

Great band, one of the ones from the 90s that I think will be still be remembered long after the fact. It's one of the few bands where they have changed their style throughout the years yet I still enjoy it all. My favorite album is Siamese Dream. My favorites on it are Soma, Disarm, Cherub Rock, and Mayonnaise. Soma is just a kick ass song, one of the best ones put out by SP IMHO. People complained about Adore's change of direction but I like it. And even though Machina didn't sell well, it's a great album with a lot of good songs. One thing SP never seemed to do was sell out their sound to become more mainstream. They always did their own thing and a lot of thei…